Allopathic & Osteopathic poll : Where are you applying?

Started by bth7
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Where are you applying?

  • I am applying to both allopathic and osteopathic schools.

    Votes: 156 37.3%

  • I’m only applying to allopathic medical schools. I never considered osteopathic schools.

    Votes: 194 46.4%

  • I considered applying to osteopathic schools, but . . . [post your reasons.]

    Votes: 62 14.8%

  • Allopathic & osteopathic? What the heck are you talking about?

    Votes: 6 1.4%
  • Total voters
    418
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Meatwad said:
Holy ****.

Roughly a 13:2:1 ratio for USMD:USDO:USIMG. That's crazy that there are only twice as many DO's entering the field each year than US born IMG's. This means:

1) There are lots of US students who couldn't get into a DO school or;
2) There are lots of US students so afraid of the DO "stigma," that they will risk being considered an IMG before a DO

It's probably a fairly even distribution of both of those. Still, 5%:11% is a way closer ratio than I would have imagined.
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I have a very similar reaction to these statistics. I feel like this is some big secret about American medical education, that we out-source 25% to oversees. So many qualified applicants are turned away from US MD and US DO schools . . . because there are not enough spots.

This should change. If we need this many doctors each year, we should give all the hard working students in the US a chance to go to med school. Med school's need to expand, and med schools need to realize that MCAT scores and an obsession with research are not necessarily the perfect criteria for selecting the next generation of America's physicians.

Just my two cents of course.
 
bth7 said:

Allopathic / osteopathic demographics

400px-EnteringPhysiciansByEducation2005.PNG

U.S. physician entering the workforce in 2005, by education type.
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Just to clarify, the source for this data is AAMC. This is for 2005, I couldn't find numbers for 2006 or 2007. I don't believe it changes dramatically from year to year, but it would be interesting to see what the trends are.

bth
 
I plan on applying allo my first time though the app process, and if I don't get in anywhere, the next app process I will do both allo and DO. Should that fail, the next app cycle it's Caribbean for me
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SAME here.
 
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bth7 said:
I have a very similar reaction to these statistics. I feel like this is some big secret about American medical education, that we out-source 25% to oversees. So many qualified applicants are turned away from US MD and US DO schools . . . because there are not enough spots.

This should change. If we need this many doctors each year, we should give all the hard working students in the US a chance to go to med school. Med school's need to expand, and med schools need to realize that MCAT scores and an obsession with research are not necessarily the perfect criteria for selecting the next generation of America's physicians.

Just my two cents of course.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I agree. I'm not suggesting we lower standards, either. There are plenty of students with stats at or above the average every year that get turned away from MD and DO schools. Like you said, if there is a need for all these doctors, why import that 25%?

Plus, dramatically decreasing the amount of IMGs we take in would help solve the brain drain a lot of these countries have, i.e. the Philippines. It may hurt them economically in the short-term, but once things stabilize, they'd be better off. So many countries have their educated peoples leaving in droves for the US, and turning a blind eye to the huge problems they are creating by making their economies dependent on money sent home from America.
 
bth7 said:
I have a very similar reaction to these statistics. I feel like this is some big secret about American medical education, that we out-source 25% to oversees. So many qualified applicants are turned away from US MD and US DO schools . . . because there are not enough spots.

This should change. If we need this many doctors each year, we should give all the hard working students in the US a chance to go to med school. Med school's need to expand, and med schools need to realize that MCAT scores and an obsession with research are not necessarily the perfect criteria for selecting the next generation of America's physicians.

Just my two cents of course.
Click to expand...

Not sure if its true, but training more people means more money, and it could very well be cheaper to just outsource the jobs.
 
artaxerxes said:
Not sure if its true, but training more people means more money, and it could very well be cheaper to just outsource the jobs.
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How's it cheaper? Schools are getting $30,000+ per year, per student, for tuition. Residency is not a factor, since hospitals are paid the same for training an IMG or an AMG.
 
Meatwad said:
Indeed, I agree. I'm not suggesting we lower standards, either. There are plenty of students with stats at or above the average every year that get turned away from MD and DO schools. Like you said, if there is a need for all these doctors, why import that 25%?

Plus, dramatically decreasing the amount of IMGs we take in would help solve the brain drain a lot of these countries have, i.e. the Philippines. It may hurt them economically in the short-term, but once things stabilize, they'd be better off. So many countries have their educated peoples leaving in droves for the US, and turning a blind eye to the huge problems they are creating by making their economies dependent on money sent home from America.
Click to expand...

The brain drain effect on these countries is huge! They are losing whole generations of their best people.

bth
 
artaxerxes said:
Not sure if its true, but training more people means more money, and it could very well be cheaper to just outsource the jobs.
Click to expand...

The schools are not cheaper unfortunately. Ross and St George's pay top dollar. And the money is going oversees.

bth7
 
I think I have managed to read EVERY DO vs. MD post on the web at this point. I have recently considered going to medical school after being a medic in both a rural and urban setting. Admitidly, I have never seen a DO in an ER, however, I'm not exactly focused on name badges. From all of my reading and my own beliefs in medicine, I think I will be applying to mostly DO schools but maybe a few MD schools if they feel right for me. From all of my studies, including bitter rivalries, I now see DO as MD Plus(Having once believed - ignorantly -that DOs were not real Doctors).
I also read the articles that were linked in this thread about DO vs MD interviewing and patient interaction. My own experience would at least support the evidence that MD students have a tougher time building a rapport with patients, something that means a lot to me. My beliefs have nothing to do with Alternative Medicine- I have never practiced such a thing and never plan to- I am a firm believer in pharmaceuticals. However, I like the approach of DO, patient oriented. Plus, DO students seem less pretentious.🙂
Thats why I am (hopefully) going DO
 
Meatwad said:
How's it cheaper? Schools are getting $30,000+ per year, per student, for tuition. Residency is not a factor, since hospitals are paid the same for training an IMG or an AMG.
Click to expand...

I have no idea if this is anywhere near accurate, but at an MD school I interviewed at recently, the physician interviewer (who I believe is also on the adcom and was talking about the school's funding) told me it costs the school around $100,000 a year to train one student. Of course, as stated above, I have no idea about the veracity of that assertion.
 
Phoenix. said:
I have no idea if this is anywhere near accurate, but at an MD school I interviewed at recently, the physician interviewer (who I believe is also on the adcom and was talking about the school's funding) told me it costs the school around $100,000 a year to train one student. Of course, as stated above, I have no idea about the veracity of that assertion.
Click to expand...

Interesting, but I don't see how adding spots would make much of a difference. Unless there is some sort of exponential growth of financial strain as more students are enrolled, it's a moot point. Each student is paying a hefty tuition bill. I doubt the $100,000 figure is after subtracting ~$30,000+ for the student's tuition.

Also, since 99% of Carib students are rotating at the same hospitals, which is where I imagine the bulk of the $100,000 figure comes from, I don't think the "it's too expensive to take in more US students," is a valid one.

For the record: I'm not attacking you at all with this post, and I hope it doesn't come out that way. Quite the contrary, thanks for sharing the info that adcom member gave you.
 
bth7 said:
The brain drain effect on these countries is huge! They are losing whole generations of their best people.

bth
Click to expand...

I see you are in NY. Have you been following the big story for the past months about the Filipino nurses whoquit their jobs at a hospice due to contract issues that are now facing jailtime and deportation? The reason I bring it up is because Newsday had a big article on it today, and was greatly focused on one of the nurses: Dr. Jacinto (if I remember correctly).

That's right, Dr.; he went to nursing school in the Philippines, did so well he decided to apply to med school. He got into UP-Manila, which anyone who knows about Filipino med schools knows it is undoubtedly #1 in the country. He graduated #1 in his class, and was one of the top few scorers on the Filipino equivelant of the USMLE. This man who would obviously be a huge asset to Filipino healthcare has basically had to put all those accomplishments behind him and now work as a nurse so he can feed his family.

Nurses make $100 a month in the PI; in the US, they make $1000 a week. I can guarantee nurses make more here in a year than doctor's make in two years in the Philippines. It's a shame; brain drain is a killer.
 
Interesting graphs:

Osteopathic_matches_NRMP.PNG

Number of Osteopathic applicants and matches for the NRMP match. (There's also an osteopathic match, about half of D.O, grads participate in that.)

Allopathic_Graduates_per_capita.PNG

Number of US allopathic graduates per 100,000 people in the U.S. (2010&2020 are estimates.)

Sources:
1. Table 2: Applicants in the Matching Program, 2001-2007. "Results and Data, 2007 Main Residency Match." National Residency Matching Program. [http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2007.pdf]
2. Osteopathic medicine


bth
The "One-Man Crusade" continues. 🙂
 
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The depressing about this thread is seeing that so many people that are going to be in positions of responsibility are so insecure about themselves that they have to resort to petty pissing matches on internet forums.

When I was in the Army, any soldier that could not complete Ranger School was considered an "inferior" soldier.

I completed the School and it was good training, but that's what all it was, training. It didn't bestow some sort of life changing ethos upon its graduates that prevented them from ever making a mistake or ever being wrong.

Some of the worst soldiers I had to deal with (worst as in they are destined to get somebody killed someday) had completed Ranger School. Some of the best had not.

In the end your degree is just training. One may or may not be surperior to the other, but you still have to walk the walk. Regardless of what two letters you have after your name, you can piss all your earned esteem away with one bad decision. That decision may have been prefaced upon the arrogance that is manifested on this thread. In the end, that makes some of you much more dangerous than someone that went to an "inferior school".

On that note, where does it end? Is an MD from WashU automatically superior to an MD from a lower ranked program?

At any rate, I am applying to both. If and when I become a physician, I would hope that every one of my colleagues would judge me. I will be judging my peers as well. That part of being a professional. I could give a **** less if someone decides to judge me for where I got my degree. If you get off on judging people for something like that, that's your perrogative. I will most likely be judging you based on your obvious character flaws.

As I noted before, those are far more likely to hurt and kill people than your MCAT score or where you went to Medcial School.
 
I don't want a flame war, I just wanted to know where science stood on the manipulation thing nowadays? Links, not commentary, preferred.
 
Meatwad said:
I see you are in NY. Have you been following the big story for the past months about the Filipino nurses whoquit their jobs at a hospice due to contract issues that are now facing jailtime and deportation? The reason I bring it up is because Newsday had a big article on it today, and was greatly focused on one of the nurses: Dr. Jacinto (if I remember correctly).

That's right, Dr.; he went to nursing school in the Philippines, did so well he decided to apply to med school. He got into UP-Manila, which anyone who knows about Filipino med schools knows it is undoubtedly #1 in the country. He graduated #1 in his class, and was one of the top few scorers on the Filipino equivelant of the USMLE. This man who would obviously be a huge asset to Filipino healthcare has basically had to put all those accomplishments behind him and now work as a nurse so he can feed his family.

Nurses make $100 a month in the PI; in the US, they make $1000 a week. I can guarantee nurses make more here in a year than doctor's make in two years in the Philippines. It's a shame; brain drain is a killer.
Click to expand...

In Greece the average salary paid by state hospitals to doctors is around 25-30k euros a year. The problem in Greece, unlike the US, is that we have far too MANY doctors. There is a lot of unemployment amongst physicians. Also newly minted MDs regularly wait 1-2 years minimum before they can even begin residency training. Talk about a messed up system. One of the biggest causes of brain drain is the lack of livable wages being paid in peoples' home countries. You generally have to be a TOP FMG to get into an American residency, which means most FMGs stay abroad. The top ones leave and get much better residency training in the US than they would have at home and go on to make better wages either in the US or come back to practice in the private market. I'm not sure how similar Greece's situation is to other countries. I know a few other European countries have a similar situation (Italy for examples).
 
That's interesting. In the Philippines, this lack of good jobs has caused medical schools (excluding UP, the top school) to go with lots of unfilled seats these past few years. I've heardquite the exact opposite in Greece, however. I've heard it's ridiculously difficult to get into a Greek medical school, even as a top student, which causes a lot of Greeks to attend schools in central and Eastern Europe for their education (Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, etc.). With such a poor outlook for doctors there, I'm surprised it is still as competitive.
 
Phoenix. said:
I have no idea if this is anywhere near accurate, but at an MD school I interviewed at recently, the physician interviewer (who I believe is also on the adcom and was talking about the school's funding) told me it costs the school around $100,000 a year to train one student. Of course, as stated above, I have no idea about the veracity of that assertion.
Click to expand...

I heard from a similar source that despite high tuition costs, medical schools lose money on every student.
 
Karen12345 said:
I heard from a similar source that despite high tuition costs, medical schools lose money on every student.
Click to expand...

I've heard the same thing. Is it somewhat of an urban myth made to make us feel sorry for the med schools who noblely educate us even though they are "losing money"? As though the board of trustees of US med schools were living on the streets or something.

bth7
 
After having read this, very interesting, forum I think one important aspect has been overlooked. bth7 has forced many people to consider their own stereotypes about DOs. If you are going to be a doctor, MD or DO, you will work with people of all races, creeds, and intellects from a variety of backgrounds and med schools. DO or MD is a personal choice. But it is not the degree that makes the physician. This is only a small piece of the pie. It is a sad thing to see close minded people like abetty03 and MWillie who think that the degree will make the doctor. This is simply not the case. While the choice of which degree to pursue is a personal one, each pre-med/med student must remember that you will work with doctors from all aspects of life throughout your career.
 
zird00 said:
While the choice of which degree to pursue is a personal one, each pre-med/med student must remember that you will work with doctors from all aspects of life throughout your career.
Click to expand...

👍
 
Meatwad said:
That's interesting. In the Philippines, this lack of good jobs has caused medical schools (excluding UP, the top school) to go with lots of unfilled seats these past few years. I've heardquite the exact opposite in Greece, however. I've heard it's ridiculously difficult to get into a Greek medical school, even as a top student, which causes a lot of Greeks to attend schools in central and Eastern Europe for their education (Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, etc.). With such a poor outlook for doctors there, I'm surprised it is still as competitive.
Click to expand...

I heard the same thing about greece.
 
I considered applying to Osteopathic schools, but for waht I am interested in right now (EM), i think an allopathic school would give me a better chance at the residency I want. But its still not out of the question.
 
Meatwad said:
That's interesting. In the Philippines, this lack of good jobs has caused medical schools (excluding UP, the top school) to go with lots of unfilled seats these past few years. I've heardquite the exact opposite in Greece, however. I've heard it's ridiculously difficult to get into a Greek medical school, even as a top student, which causes a lot of Greeks to attend schools in central and Eastern Europe for their education (Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, etc.). With such a poor outlook for doctors there, I'm surprised it is still as competitive.
Click to expand...

Chemical engineers can expect to make around 1k euros/month post-graduation (cp to ~60-70k/yr here). The job market in Greece sucks for everyone, finance and business ownership are the only ways to make high incomes, or if you are a doctor, working with private insurance exclusively, or taking bribes for care. We call them fakelakia (little envelopes), its a disgrace to the medical system, but not entirely surprising considering.
 
Drogba said:
Chemical engineers can expect to make around 1k euros/month post-graduation (cp to ~60-70k/yr here). The job market in Greece sucks for everyone, finance and business ownership are the only ways to make high incomes, or if you are a doctor, working with private insurance exclusively, or taking bribes for care. We call them fakelakia (little envelopes), its a disgrace to the medical system, but not entirely surprising considering.
Click to expand...

What about pharmacists? I've noticed, at least in New York, a lot of pharmacists are Greek. Granted, since I haven't spoen to them, I'm not sure if they are from Greece or just Americans of Greek descent. Regardless, it seems to be a popular career choice for them. If most of them are really from Greece, I'd assume that means the market for pharmacists is pretty poor in Greece. Is is worse for pharmacists than doctors at this juncture?
 
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ahaydt said:
"Anyone" can get into EM. The hospital by my "real" home is a site of an osteopathic EM residency.
Click to expand...

It's true that there are quite a few EM residencies that are osteopathic accredited, (meaning DO only) and of course as a DO you can apply to all ACGME programs as well. Something to consider.

bth
 
ahaydt said:
"Anyone" can get into EM. The hospital by my "real" home is a site of an osteopathic EM residency.
Click to expand...

This is interesting, the number of D.O. students who plan on practicing primary care drops year after year, while debt goes up and up. Hmm . . .

image006.gif
 
Meatwad said:
What about pharmacists? I've noticed, at least in New York, a lot of pharmacists are Greek. Granted, since I haven't spoen to them, I'm not sure if they are from Greece or just Americans of Greek descent. Regardless, it seems to be a popular career choice for them. If most of them are really from Greece, I'd assume that means the market for pharmacists is pretty poor in Greece. Is is worse for pharmacists than doctors at this juncture?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about pharmacists. I think it can be a decent gig if you own your own pharmacy (there are ones ever few blocks almost, always one if not more within walking distance). I don't know any pharmacists. Do you have any particular reason for asking that would merit my finding out for you, or are you just curious because you've seen so many Greek pharmacists in NYC? I would assume most of them are of Greek decent though. I think Pharmacy is regarded to be a very nice job amongst the Greek community (and others). I'm basing this comment on my own family's perception of the field and of a couple of others I've met who are not professionals. I would agree with them based on what I know of pharmacy:not too much school, decent salary and job security. I don't find their work to be sufficiently satisfactory, though.
 
Drogba said:
I'm not sure about pharmacists. I think it can be a decent gig if you own your own pharmacy (there are ones ever few blocks almost, always one if not more within walking distance). I don't know any pharmacists. Do you have any particular reason for asking that would merit my finding out for you, or are you just curious because you've seen so many Greek pharmacists in NYC? I would assume most of them are of Greek decent though. I think Pharmacy is regarded to be a very nice job amongst the Greek community (and others). I'm basing this comment on my own family's perception of the field and of a couple of others I've met who are not professionals. I would agree with them based on what I know of pharmacy:not too much school, decent salary and job security. I don't find their work to be sufficiently satisfactory, though.
Click to expand...

Oh, no, no need to prod around; like you, I'm not very interested in pharmacy. It was just an interesting observation. Thanks though!
 
I think the only reason that we care is because we're pre-meds. I have never met a physician that said where you went to medical school is more important than where you do your residency.

Personally, I chose MD because I don't believe in Osteopathic medicine and I never wanted to have to defend something I don't believe in.
 
Maxprime said:
I think the only reason that we care is because we're pre-meds. I have never met a physician that said where you went to medical school is more important than where you do your residency.
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Agreed.
 
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Would have considered osteopathic except I could not practice legally as a full physician in many developing countries...
 
This might be a dumb question, but right now I am applying to only allopathic schools. If I don't get in and apply to osteopathic schools too next cycle, can I pretend like that is the first time I am applying? Is there any way they would know that I applied allopathic?
 
elterible said:
This might be a dumb question, but right now I am applying to only allopathic schools. If I don't get in and apply to osteopathic schools too next cycle, can I pretend like that is the first time I am applying? Is there any way they would know that I applied allopathic?
Click to expand...

If they ask you in an interview. I wouldn't recommend lying about it if they ask you either. Just say that you didn't really know much about it before and have a new interest after exploring what is out there. That explanation will go a LONG way 👍
 
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