Ambulatory Care Residencies

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PharmDAB

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I am a P3 getting ready to start rotations. I plan on pursuing an ambulatory care-focused residency after graduation. (Well, I guess I'll be "pursuing" it over the next year.) Most of the students my from school who recently matched with residencies were more acute care/hospital-based.

Did any of you (or your peers) attempt to match with a PGY1 ambulatory care residency? Did they match? Did they find it was more competitive or less competitive than general pharmacy practice residencies?

Also, are there "popular" ambulatory care residency sites that are more competitive than others?

Thanks in advance!

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I am a P3 getting ready to start rotations. I plan on pursuing an ambulatory care-focused residency after graduation. (Well, I guess I'll be "pursuing" it over the next year.) Most of the students my from school who recently matched with residencies were more acute care/hospital-based.

Did any of you (or your peers) attempt to match with a PGY1 ambulatory care residency? Did they match? Did they find it was more competitive or less competitive than general pharmacy practice residencies?

Also, are there "popular" ambulatory care residency sites that are more competitive than others?

Thanks in advance!

VA amb care residencies are pretty popular according to a couple P4s I talked to this last term, especially in desirable locations. Indian Health Services have some amb residencies.
 
VA amb care residencies are pretty popular according to a couple P4s I talked to this last term, especially in desirable locations. Indian Health Services have some amb residencies.

+1 for IHS - Widely known for excellent Amb care practice. Although, not all of the IHS residency programs have an Amb care focus. To further compound searching, there is little in the ASHP residency directory that differentiates between and Amb care focused primary practice residency and one that is general inpatient primary practice.

The best way to tell is by looking at the available rotations offered... A bunch of specialty clinics (diabetes, HIV, Hepatitis, Anticoag, etc.) = Amb care focus.
 
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VA residencies are very institution specific. Some may list a "General Pharmacy Practice PGY1" but may have a pretty big amb care emphAsis. Others do create different niches (ie, VA SF).

IHS residencies are awesome in what they offer and that not as many people go for them, since they're usually (meaning, almost always) in rural areas/remote sites. BUT, unlike the VA, if you get hired on, they still have tuition forgiveness... =) Keep in mind though, that the computer system of IHS is quite a few steps behind the VA, unless they have some sort of affiliation.

Kaiser has quite a few amb care residencies, which is also a great option.

Just make sure to look at the accreditation status of the amb care residencies... there are many new ones popping up in the middle of getting/applying for accreditation - it may make a difference if/when you pursue a pgy2/fellowship. Not so much if you're gonna go straight to the work force.
 
Kaiser has quite a few amb care residencies, which is also a great option.

I was under the impression that most Kaiser residencies are not ASHP accredited. Typically, you would only do a Kaiser residency if you really want to get into the door at Kaiser - which is a pretty nice system to work for and historically difficult to get into.
 
Does anyone know what are the job opportunities after ambulatory care residency? Is it hard to find a job in clinic (non-retail position)?
 
Does anyone know what are the job opportunities after ambulatory care residency? Is it hard to find a job in clinic (non-retail position)?

Kaiser: *shrug* Just did some clicks, about 1/4 in candidate/preliminary status. Rest of them accredited.

Janeno: Main pharmacy page has multiple threads about job outlooks outside of community setting. It's a pretty broad question to ask "Is it hard to find a job..."

Most economists would say "Yes, but not as bad as the 80s" given the unemployment rate
 
I am a P3 getting ready to start rotations. I plan on pursuing an ambulatory care-focused residency after graduation. (Well, I guess I'll be "pursuing" it over the next year.) Most of the students my from school who recently matched with residencies were more acute care/hospital-based.

Did any of you (or your peers) attempt to match with a PGY1 ambulatory care residency? Did they match? Did they find it was more competitive or less competitive than general pharmacy practice residencies?

Also, are there "popular" ambulatory care residency sites that are more competitive than others?

Thanks in advance!

I'm in the same boat as you - just begining my residency research and looking for some guidance.

Have you considered any community practice residencies? It seems like there is some overlap between ambulatory care residencies and community practice residencies. I have realized though that there is a perception that community practice residencies aren't as creditable. So, you've ruled out doing a general PGY-1 and then a PGY-2 Am care?
 
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Kaiser: *shrug* Just did some clicks, about 1/4 in candidate/preliminary status. Rest of them accredited.

Janeno: Main pharmacy page has multiple threads about job outlooks outside of community setting. It's a pretty broad question to ask "Is it hard to find a job..."

Most economists would say "Yes, but not as bad as the 80s" given the unemployment rate

I guess what I meant to say how do you find opportunities in am care. I know after hospital residencies, many residents stay with the hospital at the end of residency. However, you would not have a chance to really stay with the clinic especially if they already have a clinical pharmacist there. Most job opening that I have seen are usually in hospitals unless it is joined position between academia and am care.
 
I guess what I meant to say how do you find opportunities in am care. I know after hospital residencies, many residents stay with the hospital at the end of residency. However, you would not have a chance to really stay with the clinic especially if they already have a clinical pharmacist there. Most job opening that I have seen are usually in hospitals unless it is joined position between academia and am care.

I'd like to know the answer to that too. I just finished my P1 year and will begin P2 in a week (I go to an accelerated program) and am kind of thinking about going into ambulatory care as well. Does anyone know how competitive it is to get accepted into a PGY1 residency that focuses more on ambulatory care? I'm looking specifically at programs in California but am noticing so many programs only have like 2 slots available. That sounds pretty crazy to me :eek:
 
I'm looking specifically at programs in California but am noticing so many programs only have like 2 slots available. That sounds pretty crazy to me :eek:

All the more reason to do well in your classes and commit some time to your community or a pharmacy group.
 
I'd like to know the answer to that too. I just finished my P1 year and will begin P2 in a week (I go to an accelerated program) and am kind of thinking about going into ambulatory care as well. Does anyone know how competitive it is to get accepted into a PGY1 residency that focuses more on ambulatory care? I'm looking specifically at programs in California but am noticing so many programs only have like 2 slots available. That sounds pretty crazy to me :eek:

2-3 spots max is the norm...

Don't forget though, that some general practice PGY1s allow for pretty extensive tailoring to the point where it's almost an ambcare rotation.
 
When I was looking for a PGY-1, my approach was to use ASHP and ACCP to find hospitals with PGY-2s in my areas of interest and work backwards. I figured if they had a PGY-2 in [specialty], they must be pretty good at [specialty] and have pharmacists trained in [specialty].

That's not to say that you have to do a PGY-2 at that hospital or even in that specialty, but at least you know that there will be staff members dedicated to teaching you in your current area of interest, and maybe you'll even have a PGY-2 resident to learn from as well.
 
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I'm a recent graduate just about to start an ambulatory care residency. As far as finding them goes, you just have to put in the time to search through the ASHP list of residencies and read through the program information. Your best bet is to find an area of the country you are interested in and search there. Fair warning though, to get ASHP accredited the program will likely have some sort of inpatient component because it is a requirement. There are plenty of programs out there and likely you'll find one that suits your personal needs. My experience, however, is that VA residencies offer the widest scope of practice for pharmacists. I'm going VA and couldn't be happier! Best of luck!
 
I too will be starting an Amb Care residency on the 22nd. Mine is with the Indian Health Service. I also couldn't be happier. I've talked to many officers in the IHS and I've had a hard time finding someone who doesn't love what they do (yes, I said officer, so you will be wearing a uniform, but unlike the armed forces, you don't have to move all the time unless you want to).

I will be going to Claremore, Oklahoma, which by the way isn't real rural. It is only 25 minutes from Tulsa and Claremore itself has about 19,000 people.

More than 50% of my residency is ambulatory care. As mentioned above, to get accredited the residency has to have some inpatient rotations. The Claremore hospital only has 50 beds. The have three pharmacy run clinics (lipid, anticoag, and HF). I'm not sure what my project will be yet, but I may be adding a pharmacy run diabetes clinic.

To find more information on IHS residencies, go to http://www.ihs.gov/medicalprograms/pharmacy/Resident/

Here is a link to some more information about compensation and benefits
http://www.hhs.gov/pharmacy/pdf/secret1.pdf

Not all the sites are rural. There are residencies in Phoenix and Anchorage, and like I mentioned above, Claremore isn't that rural, and Tehlaquah is another semi-large city that has a residency. Gallup, NM is a decent sized town, but really isn't close to any larger city (Albuquerque is about 2.5 hours away). As mentioned in another post there is loan repayment. Not every site has this option, it is based on how many vacancies the site had the previous year (or something close to that). Every year different sites will get loan repayment money, but if you get loan repayment it is for 20,000 for two years (so 40,000) and you commit to work for IHS for 2 year.

If you are worried about getting an ambulatory care job after you graduate, you don't have to worry about that with the IHS. There are many locations all over the country that you can go to. They pay for your moving expenses (they even pack the boxes).

As far as compensation is concerned, let me supplement the information in the .pdf link above. First of all you will get paid normal salary during your residency (in other words, you make about twice as much as you would in any other residency). I have dependents, so I'm going to give you the compensation numbers from an officer with dependents compensation. For the most part the BAH is going to be 1200 to 1300. I think the highest of the residencies is Anchorage where it is 2147. If you want to see the exact numbers for the different residencies, find the zip code and go here:
http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/perdiem/bah.html

So lets just assume your housing allowance is 1300. We are going to assume that you would normally be putting 500/month into a retirement account (but in the IHS you don't have to do this because you get a pension at 20 years of half your base salary and you get it until you die). We are also going to assume that you pay 300/month for health insurance (in the IHS you don't have to pay for health insurance, it is just provided. I think you do have to pay for dental, but I don't think it is that much/month). Your compensation looks like the following (monthly):
Base pay (taxable) = 3540
Variable special pay (FICA exempt) = 1250
Subsistence pay (no tax) = 223
Housing (no tax) = 1300
Retirement = 500
Health insurance = 300
Total = 7113 X 12 months = 85356
Don't forget that you don't have to pay tax on some of this so it is like getting an extra $5000/year or so. Therefore, your total pay for your residency is roughly equivalent $90,356. That's not bad considering that most residencies don't even pay 45k.

Now lets add the 30k sign on bonus you can get at the start of your residency and you make 120k during your residency (you have to commit to 4 years with the IHS to get the bonus, which shouldn't be a problem since I've had a hard time finding someone who doesn't love what they do).

After 4 years with the IHS you will be making 1500 more per month which brings the compensation up to around 108k. If you think of the sign on bonus being spread across the first three years 10k/year and the 9,600/year increase you get after 3 years of service, you are making about 100k/year the first 4 years and then after 4 years you are making 108k. Lets look at the 4 year total of doing the IHS versus another residency and then subsequently working for the IHS and in the amb care arena
IHS Other
1st year 100k 45k
2nd year 100k 100k
3rd year 100k 103k
4th year 108k 106k
total 408k 354k

Not bad for a clinical position. I know that was a little confusing, but I think too many people look at the compensation without taking into everything into consideration.

Just so you know, there were quite a few applicants this year. I think there were over 60 and there were 20 resident positions that were filled. I would love to see even more applicants this next year. That is why I've given so much information about the IHS here.

I love what the IHS has to offer. The money is just a bonus and I hope I explained it well here. I'm more excited about the clinics and the the great people I get to work with. The quality of life is what I care about most and I think IHS offers the best package out there.

Let me know if you have any questions.
 
thanks for the info.

quick question, you said there were 3 apps for every 1 position however I'd like some info on which sites are more competitve than others please>>i.e., which had 5 apps per position and which had one? thanks again.
 
That's a good question because each site is definitely not equal. Before I answer that question I want to mention something that I just remembered. If you only want to do a IHS residency (which was the case with me) you only have to turn in one application. In the application you indicate which sites you want it forwarded to.

Now for which sites had how many applications. My numbers aren't going to be exact, but as close as I can remember.

North Carolina
Cherokee - 18 - Relatively remote. Most people live about 30 minutes away in a variety of small towns.

Arizona
Tuba City - 18 - Remote. Some live in Tuba, but other comute over an hour a day to live in Flagstaff. Price is also about an hour away.
Phoenix - 30 for 2 positions - Not remote at all, just hot
Ft. Defiance - 18 - remote. You would be living in Ft. Defiance but they have newer housing than most places that is pretty nice.
Whiteriver - 18 for 2 positions - Rather remote but Pinetop is about 30 mintues away and is where most people live.

New Mexico
Shiprock - 28 for 2 positions -Most people live in Farmington, which is a nice city about 35 -40 minutes to the east because Shiprock itself is pretty remote. Farmington is only an hour away from Durango, CO. and a couple of hours from Moab, Ut both of which are huge recreation areas.
Gallup - 28 for 2 positions - In a small city - closest large town is Albuquerque
Santa Fe - 22 - Not remote at all
Albuquerque - 10 (could be way off here too) -Not remote at all

Oklahoma
Claremore - 18 Not really remote. Claremore is nice and 25 minutes from Tulsa.
Tehlaquah - 18 Not really remote either.
Talihina - 4 (could be way off here as well) - This is quite remote

South Dakota (These are the most remote locations. There are no large cities or even towns for that matter within 2 - 3 hours)
Pine Ridge - 10 (Could be way off here as well. If anything I would think it would have been less than 10)
Rosebud - 10 (Could be way off here as well. If anything I would think it would have been less than 10)

Alaska
Anchorage - Maybe 15 - 20 (I could be way off on this) for 1 positions - there is a second position but it must be filled with an indian candidate. This site isn't remote at all. It actually offers some things that other locations don't. First is all the recreation. Second is that there is an Air Force base in Anchorage that commissioned officers can use free of charge. The facilities that the AFB has are supposed to be really nice. There is also an extra 600 dollars (give or take) that you get for increased cost of living. Plus after you have lived there a full year you get dividends from the Alaskan trust fund (I'm not sure what the true name is). From what I know, which is little, it pays about 1000 to 3000 per person. Lastly Alaskan residents can fish with nets during the salmon run and catch about a years worth of fish if you have a freezer big enough.

One thing that I forgot to mention above is that you don't have to be a commissioned officer to do a residency or work for the IHS, but I think the benefits are much better if you do. Also, you don't have to do a residency to work for them. They will higher you without one and you will get similar training just not as accelerated.

Albuquerque doesn't have a hospital, but is right next to one of the larger hospitals (if not the largest) hospital in Albuquerque. I believe you can do a few rotations their if you want.
 
Huhenyo,

Wow thanks for all that info. You orginally said that there were 3 applicants for every one position but then said how most sites were getting 20 apps. I'm assuming most students applied to more than one site, is that correct?

also I'm wondering about this: "to get ASHP accredited the program will likely have some sort of inpatient component because it is a requirement". If a residency couldn't get accredited as ambulatory why wouldn't they shoot for community acreditation, wouldn't that be better than no acreditation at all? I ask cause I wonder what job prospects I'd have if I end up doing a non-accredited ambulatory residency. any thoughts?
 
Gsinccom, Yes, most people applied to more than one residency (I applied to 10). I think that a community accredidation doesn't quite give you the same credentials an ambulatory residency would. By this I mean that I think imployers are going to think of a community accreditated residency different than an ambulatory residency. Actually, I don't think the IHS residencies are considered ambulatory residencies but rather a pharmacy practice PGY1. The difference is that they are at least 50% ambulatory whereas most other residencies other than the VA are probably 90% hospital. The only IHS residency that isn't accredited is the Tuba City residency because this is its first year, but I would be surprised if it didn't get accredited.

Now, on another note, there is a true ambulatory residency (no hospital that I'm aware of) in Boise I think it is that is directed by someone who has the reputation of creating great pharmacists, so it doesn't matter that his residency isn't accredited because he has a good name. He doesn't get it accredited because he doesn't want to deal with all the hoops you have to jump through. Now, all this is according to Karen Gunning (one of the preceptors for ambulatory care at the University of Utah). If you are interested in that residency, send me a private message and I'll get you in contact with her.
 
I know that USCD and USC have ASHP accredited PGY-1 programs whose sole focus is ambulatory care. In talking with residents and staff, there is no inpatient/hospital type of component whatsoever. USC requires no weekend staffing and UCSD requires every third saturday but it's in an outpatient clinic type of setting. These programs are rare in that aspect but they are still accredited. I know a lot of VA's have a strong ambulatory care focus but still have some sort of inpatient component.
 
I know that USCD and USC have ASHP accredited PGY-1 programs whose sole focus is ambulatory care. In talking with residents and staff, there is no inpatient/hospital type of component whatsoever. USC requires no weekend staffing and UCSD requires every third saturday but it's in an outpatient clinic type of setting. These programs are rare in that aspect but they are still accredited. I know a lot of VA's have a strong ambulatory care focus but still have some sort of inpatient component.

thanks for the info.
 
Carolinas Medical Center also has a community focused residency.
 
The Carolinas are pretty progressive as far as pharmacy is concerned and I'm sure there are some great residencies there. New Mexico is also pretty progressive. You might check them out as well. I didn't do too much research into other residencies outside of IHS so I'm not too much help. I do remember coming across a two year ambulatory residency in Ohio I think it was. It may have been Iowa, but I'm sure it was one of the two. It sounded like a great one if anyone is interested in a two year residency.

One of the reasons I chose to do a residency that isn't ambulatory only is because I haven't worked much hospital and I thought it would be good to get a little hospital experience. I won't be working too many weekends and once I'm staff (if they have a position open for me) I think they said you only work 1 in 8 weekends. That's not bad. Claremore Hospital's residency is about 70% ambulatory so it is perfect for me. Some of the other larger hospitals like Anchorage (150 beds or so, trauma II), Gallup (99 beds), and Phoenix (127 bed) are about 50% ambulatory and there is everything in between. Albuquerque is completely ambulatory. There used to be a residency in Warm Springs, Oregon, but they don't have a residency director at the moment. I'm actually considering moving there after I finish my residency to get it back up and running, but a lot could change between now and then.
 
I`m thinking of amb care board certification and i want your help in choosing resources (textbooks,journals or others..........)
please give me some.
thank you all
 
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