Amy Tryon and Le Samurai - Injury/Abuse/Controversy at Rolex 2007

[FriskyPony]

I think the guy in the background going "UGH...UGH" sums it up.

Yah, Yah!!!!!!!!!!! And I agree with whomever said that they "loved" how the woman kept talking mindlessly!

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[cubs11]

i'm gonna have to watch the video again, b/c i didn't have my speakers on. that'll make it even worse... i missed out on the guy in the background and the oblivious commentator.

 

[Truth74]

It was devastating. The poor horse landed that last jump one legged. I was yelling at my computer for it to stop when he stumbled before the turn.
He was begging to stop, but he trusted her and kept going anyway.

 

[FriskyPony]

He was begging to stop, but he trusted her and kept going anyway.

That's the part that breaks my heart...

 

[KittenKiller]

I think the guy in the background going "UGH...UGH" sums it up.

I just realized though, its not a guy in the background, its the guy who's filming his television with a video camera. He might have been going "ugh...ugh" for effect.

 

[Iain]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, I just wanted to give my 2 cents on a couple of topics.

Amy is a very skilled horsewoman, however as someone who has had horses break underneath them (to a lesser extent) I do not believe for one second she did not know the severity of the injury. I wish she had been honest, and said it did not feel right, but the pressure I carried on myself that ride, I put onto an injured horse and it was wrong - apologized to the public, the event organizers, the owners, etc. With horses we all make mistakes; bad judgement calls due to emotion. It is silly to say Amy does not love her horses, but in the public eye we are being judged by non-horse people, and they do not understand horses like we do after years of working with them.

I am currently driving a horse and carriage in Boston, and run into many 'pony patters' who believe what I am doing is wrong. I tell my girlfriend over and over 'I just wish they could see him when he marches into the city on his way to work' I can only describe it as an 8 year old going to baseball practice. If you look into his quality of care it is nothing less than exceptional, 2-3 months off per year, works 3 days a week, lives at a farm, water every hour at work, feed every 3, etc, and to me walking around the city is just like an urban trail ride - yet we have PETA protesting, people complaining about carrying a whip, and just silly things. I personally think our horses have it very good - hard work, and great care. I think most horses would be OK with that!

I am not sure people's experience in racing to be able to chime in. I have been around the track a fair amount, just accepted my first job in racing and start in a couple weeks at Saratoga. The person I work for, if one of his horses, whether it had won a graded stakes, or was just a two year who got sick the first day in his barn he or one of his assistants would go and visit it everyday if possible. None of the horses to my eye were treated differently, and in my many years around horses, I believe they recieved the best care and attention I had seen. Racing does more for retired horses than any other discipline, not only all the charities, but look at Three Chimneys if your broodmare was there for so many years once they were retired as a broodmare they get to live out the rest of their life there free of charge - if you speak to the president of the farm, he says these old mares owe us nothing, without there hardwork I would not have a job, and I will bet that those old mares will be there as long as there are stallions in the breeding shed.

 

[thelarson]

Before I had seen the video, I thought that it could be possible for the horse to go lame and the rider not to be aware of it. After seeing what actually happened...that's a bunch of bull. Even an inexperienced rider would feel what was going on with Le Samurai - the horse is clearly in pain, the gait is completely off...this is just completely awful. No one should get away with this.

 

[Spartanvet4cows]

Yeah, I'm not the most experienced rider, so I didn't want to comment until I saw it. Now that I have, I don't have a doubt she knew what was going on. I have a hard time believing a rider would do such a thing. That's a good way to ruin a horse (as with this case). For me, a horse that I own and love, its health is much more important than one event. There are other years, sometimes there just isn't "another horse." I have to say, I hope there is disciplinary action.

 

[ri23]

Does anyone know when we find out the decision?

 

[Iain]

The decision will be made in about 30 days. I hope the disciplinary action is fair, unlike in the Molina case of last week. 30 days for belly kicking is excessive, especially considering how he handled himself afterwards.

Now that I have, I don't have a doubt she knew what was going on. I have a hard time believing a rider would do such a thing. That's a good way to ruin a horse (as with this case). For me, a horse that I own and love, its health is much more important than one event. There are other years, sometimes there just isn't "another horse."

There is a big difference between the pressure of a local show where you and your horse are there to have fun, and when you are competeting for some else. I have played polo with people who are spending $5000+ a weekend to play and win tournaments, it is a different attitude going in than if it was club chukkars.

 

[wivet2011]

There is a big difference between the pressure of a local show where you and your horse are there to have fun, and when you are competeting for some else. I have played polo with people who are spending $5000+ a weekend to play and win tournaments, it is a different attitude going in than if it was club chukkars.

To me, that shouldn't make any difference regarding how you treat the horse.

 

[Iain]

To me, that shouldn't make any difference regarding how you treat the horse.

It is not a conscious thought, it is just the competitive nature all professional sportsman/women have -

 

[wivet2011]

It is not a conscious thought, it is just the competitive nature all professional sportsman/women have -

Why wouldn't it be a conscious thought? Unless your only concern is winning one way or another, consideration for the animal's well being should always be made. Not only that, but if you aren't paying attention to how the horse is moving, how can you (and the horse) efficiently work as a team and expect to succeed?

Anyways, I'm with Spartanvet, the horse's health is much more important than any event, even if you paid $5000+ to compete.

 

[Iain]

I think you are misunderstanding slightly - it is not a case of deciding to push on, it just takes longer to realise things aren't right, and how bad they are. It might be a focus thing, you're focusing on the competition whether it is a course, a game, or a race.

I personally know I have done things that I hope I would not do again - I am sure Amy puts this into this category. Playing the horse game at a high level and having a horse as a pet are two very different things, many people do not understand the former.

 

[Spartanvet4cows]

Well, at level such as the Rolex, I would imagine the horses competing are worth quite a bit of money, more than the entry fee, that's for sure. So at the very least monetarily it doesn't make sense to ruin the horse just to finish the event. Along with a highly competitive drive at this level, competitors also usually have a very good sense of what feels right, and what doesn't. I would expect that if your horse tries to break into a trot 3 times after a stumble, some red flags should have gone up. Amy has MUCH more experience than me, so I guess I hold her to a higher level of responsibility.

I used to swim competitively, and even though it was not at a national level, I was pretty hardcore. I got sick in the middle of a 500yd freestyle at the league meet one year and kept going. I probably shouldn't have, and my body wasn't very happy with me, but I was doing it to myself. I know these horses love what they do, but if I knew that I was putting a horse through something like that I would stop, no matter what level of competition. It's one thing to do it to yourself, quite another to do it to another living thing.

 

[Iain]

It is easier in hindsight than it is in the situation - trust me.

 

[JumperHorseLove]

As someone who does not know Amy but did have the pleasure of knowing "Sparky" aka Le Samurai I just wanted the participants in this thread to know that he had an enormous heart and anyone who knew him, which hopefully Amy did, knew, as with a horse like Barbaro, he needed his human pilot to be the one making the decisions about whether or not he was fit to continue. At the end of an XC trip I am sure he would have galloped forward even with a fracture (as Barbaro would have had he not been pulled up). That video was nauseating and the commentator say 'ugh' repeatedly in the background captures the feeling 'real time' as he watched the travesty of the human part of the team making bad decision after bad decision with every stride, many opportunities to pull up - particularly because Sparky was 'asking' to be pulled up, he was not being carried along in a pack as often happens under racetrack conditions. Until I saw that video tonight I had hoped/thought he took a bad step one or two strides in front of the fence where there was really no opportunity for Amy to pull up, seeing the video I am sickened and do believe she should be banned from eventing.

 

[JumperPony16]

Hi All,
Just so you all know, the verdict on the Amy Tryon case has been published. She has been charged with unintentional abuse and will be banned from eventing for 2 or 3 months after the 30 day appeal window. To read more on the verdict, here is the link... http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=10052
Hope this helps...

PS: and a bunch of thanks to whoever posted the video!!!! big help in trying to find out what happened...
thanks all!!

 

[littledog]

I also know Amy Tryon slightly, I'm an eventer who lives in Washington so we've competed in many of the same events. Though I'm at a much lower level, I've had the opportunity to watch Amy compete for many years as she's progressed through the levels of eventing. Amy takes the utmost care of her horses, she has always put her horse's welfare ahead of any prizes. I've seen her withdraw from competitions when her horse's welfare was in question, so I was shocked when Le Samurai's injury happened at Rolex.

It's tragic that her mistake resulted in Le Samurai having to be euthanised, but I truly believe her mistake was understandable. Watching the video from a rider's point of view, I could easily mistake that first stumble for an exhausted horse maybe losing a shoe on uneven ground, and with only one jump to go I would have done the same thing in the heat of the moment, pushed him on to finish the course.

The background guy's "ooh ooh" wasn't heard until after the last jump, and the horse's lameness wasn't completely obvious until then. Even if Amy had pulled him up before the last jump, would that have saved him, or was the damage already done?

She deserves to be fined for her error in judgement, but she doesn't deserve to be permanently banned for cruelty. I believe the FEI's response was appropriate. From what I know about Amy, she is punishing herself more than any FEI board is capable of. May we all have the opportunity to mess things up, learn something from the tragic results of our mistakes, and get a second chance to move forward.

Don't even compare the sport of eventing with the horse racing industry. Eventing saves many ex-racers from the slaughter industry, but that is another topic.

 

[Truth74]

FYI,
The last abattoir in the states was closed down. It's in Illinois. They are in the process of trying to get it reopened during appeals. The federal government is also in the process of making it illegal to transport horses across the borders for the purpose of slaughter.

 

[BenjaminBug]

Eventing and other sports (grand prix showjumping, reining, etc) all function because the athletes (horses) LOVE it. If you've ever seen or participated, you would be struck by the absolute reverence with which horses are treated - it is all structured around their care. So much money and effort is poured into equine sports medicine. Horses like these - international competitors - are amazing, and would only get to this level because of their love of it.

Lower-level horse sports and horse fancying (trail-riding, etc) have high levels of injury as well... horses (and people) get hurt. High level riding is high profile, and it's more risky... but there's also more skillful!

People who say eventing is abuse... I just can't understand it. It shows ignorance of horses rather than respect. Horses pass daily trot-ups showing their soundness and fitness. No drugs are allowed. Horse health is paramount.

As an active equestrian athlete I would second this. I have a jumper horse and have been known to show hunters as well. And while this is rather different from eventing in that it's jumps in an arena where the footing is generally manicured perfect, and you do at most 18 jumps in a few minutes.

Horses get x-rays and ultrasounds for even minor soreness... and with no horse health insurance it's quite expensive. In the last month my horse has cost well over $1000 in medical bills for what started as a very slight lameness on his front leg, and stayed slight. (He's supposed to start work again this week.) And I'll be honest I'm no where CLOSE to the level Amy Tryon is. Horses that compete at that elite level get the best of the best, costing a fortune. The slightest soreness is reason to call out the best vet, and pay a few hundred dollars just for the vet's opinion, not to mention the treatment.

In instances like this, I question whether such extreme sporting events with animals are necessary... maybe this pushes them too much.

I'd like to see anyone force a horse to jump over fences the horse can't see the other side of. The horse is 1200lbs+ if the horse doesn't want to, it won't.

I wouldn't say thats exactly true. Its paramount as long as its not effecting earnings. For instance, if health was number one, I doubt they would race horses as 2-3 year olds and instead wait until they were older and had maximal bone density to reduce injury. But that would mean years and years of extra feed before the horse produced any income and would never happen.

They race horses as 2-3 years olds partly because older horses tend to be less motivated, heal slower if they get hurt, and the breed raced most commonly tends to not keep weight on after about 4. But, I know several horses that were raced up through 9 years old. Racing doesn't stop after the horse turns 4, but the races tend to be a lot slower, less exciting, have less draw, and make less money all around. It is a money thing, but not just because it costs to feed them for a few years.

I'm talking about equestrian sports, not money-bound racing. I put racing in a different category. Things that happen at the World Equestrian Games or the Olympics are very different than money-centred, bet-centered racing... Horse sports are an art, racing is money.

This is true in some ways. Olympic and World Cup level jumping and dressage is very different from racing in that racing is one of the easiest thing to teach a horse. That's why they can race 3 year olds. You can't train a horse to jump that well, or higher level dressage in that about of time. Olympic horses are young at 12, because it takes SO much training for the horse to be ready for that level.

does anyone know where we can find this video? i think it would be interesting to see. this forum is up b/c it is "a hot topic." no personal attacks should be made.... we should be discussing the topic.

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=664abo2

Surely she wouldn't have intentionally ridden on while the horse was lame.

It seems unlikely she would be cruel to her horse, but even if she didn't care about the horse, surely jumping on a lame horse would also be crazy from a $$$ perspective as I imagine the horse would be valuable.

That horse was probably valued in the mid to upper six figures, if not seven figures.

He was clearly lame -- his head was bobbing and he wanted to trot. In retrospect the rider should have pulled him up immediately instead of asking him to continue, regardless of how close they were to the finish. A rider at that level has to know that this was more than just a ding or shoe. The judges at the time obviously agreed because she got disqualified not withdrawn.

That said, I think it was an error in judgement not any sort of intentional misconduct -- like drugging a lame horse to pass inspection.

Regarding horses in sports, a horse can blow a tendon (or even break a leg) just running around in a pasture.

At any level a rider is dead tired at the end of an XC course. You can see how much the rider's legs move on the horse's sides in the video, when a high-level rider will usually have lower legs so strong that they don't appear to move except over jumps. When a rider is that tired they will not be thinking as clearly as they might be at the start of the course.

When I watched the video even I wondered if the horse had pulled a shoe when he first stumbled. When a horse pulls a shoe they can stumble severely and if the shoe is still flapping they won't canter nicely. At that point in her ride I wouldn't be surprised if she thought the horse had pulled a shoe, was cross-cantering, or had just had a boot slip. A lot of things can happen, and it's very likely that (esp. with as much as she was flopping in the saddle at that point) Amy Tryon did not feel the horse's lameness as such, and did not feel nearly as much of a problem as we can see watching.

It's very common that a horse will not feel nearly as bad as they look. (That can work the other way too, so that they horse feels off even if they don't look lame.)

Why wouldn't it be a conscious thought? Unless your only concern is winning one way or another, consideration for the animal's well being should always be made. Not only that, but if you aren't paying attention to how the horse is moving, how can you (and the horse) efficiently work as a team and expect to succeed?

Anyways, I'm with Spartanvet, the horse's health is much more important than any event, even if you paid $5000+ to compete.

You can't win when you can't ride the rest of the event. The XC is usually the first part of a three day event. To win you have to ride the show jumping and the dressage, and the horse obviously wasn't doing that.

$5000 to compete? That's nothing next to the $500,000+ horses that are entered.

 

[BenjaminBug]

Double.

 

[BenjaminBug]

Oops.