An excellent read for the Anti-URM peeps (or anyone else)

[Womb Raider]

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I read your post wrong, modified the original. What was the playground shooter Q?

Whether or not a court or public university will stand behind a rationale says something about the contemporary ethics surrounding the issue (not to mention the validity of the study). I'm just wondering why we haven't seen it in court. Maybe we have and I just can't find it.

 

[efle]

As I said, affirmative action requires more to be done to be truly effective. GPA is not a measure of how well you can do in physics and chem, but rather how hard you can work. With worse educational opportunity, one's potential vis a vis these metrics is lower even with equivalent work. Thus, if a person doesn't have the educational opportunity to achieve to the standard, then you can lower the standard a bit and they can still become successful engineers, lawyers, doctors, or whatever else; the data seems to support my conclusion that one only needs like a 3.2+ and a 27+ to be successful in med school, for example.

Affirmative action is necessary to compensate for a lack of educational opportunity due to institutional racism, as well as the negative effects of cultural racism. Theoretically, we could boost the efficiency of affirmative action with head start and other educational programs. But the same people that bemoan AA don't want to pay for head start...

Really, this isn't that complicated. I suggest all of you take an introductory sociology class and educate yourselves.

I agree earlier education improvement is the fix here. The aim should be to bring people up to their potential in childhood, not continuously pass the buck after they've had a terrible upbringing with a series of lowered criteria. Fix the source!

Trying to write us off as ignorant is a weak approach though. A good number of people will get flamed, but the less sensitive will just sigh at the fallacy and be less likely to seriously consider your positions later on

 

[efle]

I read your post wrong, modified the original. What was the playground shooter Q?

Whether or not a court or public university will stand behind a rationale says something about the contemporary ethics surrounding the issue (not to mention the validity of the study). I'm just wondering why we haven't seen it in court. Maybe we have and I just can't find it.

Do you doubt all sorts of medical policy or sociological research unless they land in a court? You have the most bizarre means of determining validity...most people take peer review from informed people in the field to be several steps higher than legal opinions!

The shooter Q is one of many deontological scenarios that most people immediately reject, just like they immediately reject some utilitarian ones (like secretly taking organs from homeless to save lives). It essentially just highlights that "Can I use lethal force as a means to protect many children on a playground from a shooter?" gets a resounding yes in modern ethics, but would be a giant "NO!" from Kant. Both positions pushed to extremes disgust a lot of people, but personally I find deontology the much less tenable. No lying to save an innocent life? No moral grounds to defend yourself from an invading genocidal force? Totally ridiculous!

 

[Womb Raider]

The shooter Q is one of many deontological scenarios that most people immediately reject, just like they immediately reject some utilitarian ones (like secretly taking organs from homeless to save lives). It essentially just highlights that "Can I use lethal force as a means to protect many children on a playground from a shooter?" gets a resounding yes in modern ethics, but would be a giant "NO!" from Kant. Both positions pushed to extremes disgust a lot of people, but personally I find deontology the much less tenable. No lying to save an innocent life? No moral grounds to defend yourself from an invading genocidal force? Totally ridiculous!

I think again you may have me confused with someone else - in the past you called me a deontologist only to remember you were thinking of someone else. Anyhow, I'll answer that question.

First of all, as I'm sure you're aware, deontology has to have some sort of guiding principle from which they can generate their rules. In most cases, this is consequentialism. "We're making x rule because most of the time it does more harm than good."

The whole problem people make when arguing deontology or Kant is they make these vastly superficial, vague, broad claims like the scenario you're making. Deontology wouldn't have people always refuse to kill, lie, steal, or cheat - that's ridiculous. Basically each deontological statement would have a tendency to be reduced an infinite number of times. For example: "Never take a life" could become "Never take an innocent life" to "Never take an innocent life unless in self defense" (I know that's a misnomer, but you get the idea) to "Never take an innocent life unless in self defense and if they're holding a weapon" to "Never take an innocent life unless in self defense and if they're holding a gun." Etc.. etc... etc... Why would any deontological system make rules that are so broad as to say "never lie?" Lol

 

[Mad Jack]

those of us who lobby for real change have a right to feel a little morally superior 😛

Really, this isn't that complicated. I suggest all of you take an introductory sociology class and educate yourselves.

 

[efle]

I think again you may have me confused with someone else - in the past you called me a deontologist only to remember you were thinking of someone else. Anyhow, I'll answer that question.

First of all, as I'm sure you're aware, deontology has to have some sort of guiding principle from which they can generate their rules. In most cases, this is consequentialism. "We're making x rule because most of the time it does more harm than good."

The whole problem people make when arguing deontology or Kant is they make these vastly superficial, vague, broad claims like the scenario you're making. Deontology wouldn't have people always refuse to kill, lie, steal, or cheat - that's ridiculous. Basically each deontological statement would have a tendency to be reduced an infinite number of times. For example: "Never take a life" could become "Never take an innocent life" to "Never take an innocent life unless in self defense" (I know that's a misnomer, but you get the idea) to "Never take an innocent life unless in self defense and if they're holding a weapon" to "Never take an innocent life unless in self defense and if they're holding a gun." Etc.. etc... etc... Why would any deontological system make rules that are so broad as to say "never lie?" Lol

I take it you're not familiar with phil of ethics...deontology can't operate with consequentialism as its guiding rule, that would just be consequentialism. Deontology is a specific position directly opposed to consequentialism holding that it is always wrong to use a rational being as a means, no matter the circumstance. Something like "no killing even if its self defense" is unambiguously core to deontology. But I do think I've confused you with someone else again

 

[Womb Raider]

That's Kantism, deontology is much broader. Rules = deontology. How these rules are formed give rise to the numerous branches of deontology. Kant used reason. My reasoning could apply to Kantism by applying the categorical imperative. Making "do not lie ever" universal is silly, you must make exceptions.

 

[Goro]

Here's one, for starters.

@Goro hit him with your list of copypasta studies showing minority patient-physician same race > different race

The schools themselves probably just slap that wonderful blanket term "diversity" anywhere public. And tbh I don't really care if the med schools follow the same logic as I do anyways, my support for it comes from the documented differences it makes for some patient populations rather than what med schools will openly say about their goals

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

What in the hell is this post about? Calm down "dermocrat88".

I am calm 🙂! I just think every three months an URM thread is created in pre-allo. It contains the same views as always. It gets tiresome to hear the same ish over and over. We have no control over this med school process, and I just see a lot of bitter pre-med students. Eat a snickers bar or something. Go bungee jumping or shark diving. There are other things in the world to worry about besides why an URM got accepted, and you got a rejection letter. Maybe you weren't good enough. All I see is a high amount of external locus of control, lol

 

[Womb Raider]

I am calm 🙂! I just think every three months an URM thread is created in pre-allo. It contains the same views as always. It gets tiresome to hear the same ish over and over.

Oh boy if only I could think of an easy way to solve that problem!!

 

[Gandyy]

I am calm 🙂! I just think every three months an URM thread is created in pre-allo. It contains the same views as always. It gets tiresome to hear the same ish over and over. We have no control over this med school process, and I just see a lot of bitter pre-med students. Eat a snickers bar or something. Go bungee jumping or shark diving. There are other things in the world to worry about besides why an URM got accepted, and you got a rejection letter. Maybe you weren't good enough. All I see is a high amount of external locus of control, lol

I think I am about done with some of the posters in this thread.

I am not complaining.

This will be the 4th or 5th time that I've said that I am a supporter of URM. This thread is a circus.

Please read the thread before you post, or dont reply to the wrong people. Although I will say the URM supporters in this thread are making a really bad case for our side lol. Saying stuff like "take a sociology class and get educated" is really hurting the pro-URM peeps.

God these threads are so bad. You know what, I'm out. I dont plan on participating in another one of these threads. These threads are so toxic that the people on the same side of the URM argument attack each other lmao

 

[YourFutureBoss]

Trying to write us off as ignorant is a weak approach though. A good number of people will get flamed, but the less sensitive will just sigh at the fallacy and be less likely to seriously consider your positions later on

Why is it a fallacy? I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's the truth lol. How am I supposed to reconcile my three years of majoring in sociology with those who have never even taken a sociology class? Do you have any understanding of white privilege, or how white supremacy runs our country on a system of racial violence?

 

[ZedsDed]

Why is it a fallacy? I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's the truth lol. How am I supposed to reconcile my three years of majoring in sociology with those who have never even taken a sociology class? Do you have any understanding of white privilege, or how white supremacy runs our country on a system of racial violence?

Every ideology should be reduceable to a set of principles derived at least in part through reason. If your ideology does not have logic at its core, then you have a problem. In other words, you should be able to discuss the simpler concepts with laypeople.

 

[ZedsDed]

Trying to write us off as ignorant is a weak approach though. A good number of people will get flamed, but the less sensitive will just sigh at the fallacy and be less likely to seriously consider your positions later on

Pretentious social science majors are my kryptonite!

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

I think I am about done with some of the posters in this thread.

I am not complaining.

This will be the 4th or 5th time that I've said that I am a supporter of URM. This thread is a circus.

Please read the thread before you post, or dont reply to the wrong people. Although I will say the URM supporters in this thread are making a really bad case for our side lol. Saying stuff like "take a sociology class and get educated" is really hurting the pro-URM peeps.

God these threads are so bad. You know what, I'm out. I dont plan on participating in another one of these threads. These threads are so toxic that the people on the same side of the URM argument attack each other lmao

Not coming directly at you, Gandy! I saw your comments, and you are pro-URM 😉.
Just watch, and don't say anything, lol. I told myself I was not going to respond, but these comments are 😵

 

[Gandyy]

Not coming directly at you, Gandy! I saw your comments, and you are pro-URM 😉.
Just watch, and don't say anything, lol. I told myself I was not going to respond, but these comments are 😵

Ah I see, I apologize then. Still, I'm out of this thread.

 

[efle]

Why is it a fallacy? I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's the truth lol. How am I supposed to reconcile my three years of majoring in sociology with those who have never even taken a sociology class? Do you have any understanding of white privilege, or how white supremacy runs our country on a system of racial violence?

it is a fallacy because it attacks the credentials of those arguing against you rather than the arguments themselves. I in turn find it difficult to reconcile my education in philosophy and natural science with unsound and invalid argument. Whether or not someone has learned about or experienced white privilage or institutional racism for example has no bearing on data showing that AA is actually keeping down minority representation and is a totally illogical contradiction to its stated aims

 

[Womb Raider]

Why is it a fallacy? I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's the truth lol. How am I supposed to reconcile my three years of majoring in sociology with those who have never even taken a sociology class? Do you have any understanding of white privilege, or how white supremacy runs our country on a system of racial violence?

Someone who has spent 3 years studying anything should know the concepts so thoroughly that explaining them to others should feel effortless. And yet we see you here completely incapable of even trying. How do you expect to lobby if you can't effectively communicate ideas? If you can't even find some way of communicating with people that may have a ~3 year knowledge gap, how do you think you'll perform as a physician when you're very likely to have 10-15 year knowledge gap between your patient? elfe hit the nail on the head - it just makes people stop taking you seriously.

"If you can't explain something simply, you don't know enough about it." Einstein

 

[PREMEDitated22]

Yup, you brought up the GPA and MCAT for "the bubble" applicants, which of course show a difference. That's kind of the f-cking point. The problem is there are hundreds and hundreds of applicants that exists above and below that single point on the curve. Now of course if you look at those in either direction above and below, the difference evaporates... but that wouldn't have the emotional impact, would it?

I'd be anti-affirmative action too if that was what was going on. Problem is, that's a short-sighted and intentionally simplistic way of looking at AA. (FYI, I'm not ADCOM at the moment, but eligible to interview med students for admission, and I do interview and select residents...now having done so at two different programs). The fact is, bubble applicants are more likely to get a look if they're URM than not. It's one of many factors/variables at play by that point. Should we feel bad that some with objectively higher stats could be passed over? nah. A traditional aged MCAT taker is barely closer in age to being a board certified physician than they are in the other direction to having had their first period or chest hair. It's one test of many on the way to becoming a physician, both standardized and not. A couple points in either direction isn't going to tell me who will be a better physician 9 years down the line. No one is forcing anyone to apply with a 3.6/27 btw. Hundreds and hundreds of incredibly talented and qualified applicants are rejected every single year... a fact that would exist with or without affirmative action. It's a sad fact of life. Solve that problem by not being on the bubble and your problem fixes itself.


Yes an attending psychiatrist in his 30s living on the south side of Chicago, I was totally unaware that there are indeed rich black people in society... 🙄. However, here's the problem. AA isn't just about compensating for SES. Nor does it come close to "fixing" the discrimination that occurs in this country in relation to education and professional opportunities, both before AND after admission. It's a splash of water in an evaporating swimming pool.

I could come at you with a magic elf who would let you apply with URM considerations to any of our 5 fine medical schools in this city, but in exchange, he'd change your race. You know you wouldn't take that deal.

This!!!! No one would honestly say they would become black for a medical school spot.

 

[Womb Raider]

This!!!! No one would honestly they would become black for a medical school spot!

If that magic elf could magically foretell whether or not you would ever get into medical school as your natural race, I'm sure plenty of people would. Dwelling on hypotheticals like this is pointless.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why is it a fallacy? I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's the truth lol. How am I supposed to reconcile my three years of majoring in sociology with those who have never even taken a sociology class? Do you have any understanding of white privilege, or how white supremacy runs our country on a system of racial violence?

Personally, I don't know how I'd ever reconcile spending 3 years mastering a useless major that's pretty much founded upon circular reasoning and nonsense terminology, but I digress. Let's stay on the topic at hand. Medical school admissions. In that regard, all we can do is try and admit a group of applicants that will best serve the diverse communities in which each school operates. Anything beyond that is really outside the scope of this discussion and risking serious derailment of the thread.

 

[YourFutureBoss]

it is a fallacy because it attacks the credentials of those arguing against you rather than the arguments themselves. I in turn find it difficult to reconcile my education in philosophy and natural science with unsound and invalid argument. Whether or not someone has learned about or experienced white privilage or institutional racism for example has no bearing on data showing that AA is actually keeping down minority representation and is a totally illogical contradiction to its stated aims

The racism that minorities experience on a day to day basis, along with a poor education in childhood, prevents them from reaching their full potential. How else can we explain the fact that even the few upper class minorities that exist have lower scores on average? The capitalist oligarchs systematically oppress minorities, largely through subtle cultural racism and police-enforced murder.
I apologize for being dismissive, but those who have not been properly educated often find the above statements rediculous.

Someone who has spent 3 years studying anything should know the concepts so thoroughly that explaining them to others should feel effortless. And yet we see you here completely incapable of even trying. How do you expect to lobby if you can't effectively communicate ideas? If you can't even find some way of communicating with people that may have a ~3 year knowledge gap, how do you think you'll perform as a physician when you're very likely to have 10-15 year knowledge gap between your patient? elfe hit the nail on the head - it just makes people stop taking you seriously.

"If you can't explain something simply, you don't know enough about it." Einstein

As I said, most people are extremely ignorant of white supremacy and see the underperformance of blacks as caused by the cultural or even intellectual inferiority of minorities. This is nonsense. Only through understanding the subtleties of white supremacy can one make sense of the data.

Personally, I don't know how I'd ever reconcile spending 3 years mastering a useless major that's pretty much founded upon circular reasoning and nonsense terminology, but I digress.

*sigh* the ignorant and the pawns of white supremacy often see it this way, sadly. All we can do is hope that the truly learned scholars in the field are heard over all of the noise.

 

[Gandyy]

The racism that minorities experience on a day to day basis, along with a poor education in childhood, prevents them from reaching their full potential. How else can we explain the fact that even the few upper class minorities that exist have lower scores on average? The capitalist oligarchs systematically oppress minorities, largely through subtle cultural racism and police-enforced murder.
I apologize for being dismissive, but those who have not been properly educated often find the above statements rediculous.

As I said, most people are extremely ignorant of white supremacy and see the underperformance of blacks as caused by the cultural or even intellectual inferiority of minorities. This is nonsense. Only through understanding the subtleties of white supremacy can one make sense of the data.

*sigh* the ignorant and the pawns of white supremacy often see it this way, sadly. All we can do is hope that the truly learned scholars in the field are heard over all of the noise.

I said I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have to absolutely say your extremely condescending nature of arguing is quite ironic with how much you are complaining about "white supremacy".

I'm Pro-URM btw. It looks like I'll have to clarify that every single post of this circus thread.

 

[ZedsDed]

I said I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have to absolutely say your extremely condescending nature of arguing is quite ironic with how much you are complaining about "white supremacy".

I'm Pro-URM btw. It looks like I'll have to clarify that every single post of this circus thread.

I wouldn't call that post an "argument." More like conjecture coupled with an assertion of superiority.

 

[Womb Raider]

As I said, most people are extremely ignorant of white supremacy and see the underperformance of blacks as caused by the cultural or even intellectual inferiority of minorities. This is nonsense. Only through understanding the subtleties of white supremacy can one make sense of the data.

And why, exactly, is it nonsense? Do you have any data to back up your dismissive attitude? Or are you like the others in this thread who scoff at the notion that intellect could exist on a spectrum merely because it's a sour thought to entertain (which, again, is 100% irrelevant).

Everyone gets in the habit of thinking it must be one or the other (my way or the highway!), when in reality it's almost certainly a combination of factors. What's even more surprising is people refuse to acknowledge the (partial) validity of the other side out of fear that their own position may be damaged.

 

[Womb Raider]

Eh, you are also kind of guilty of the bolded with the strong opinions you have posted in this thread.

Where did I reject the other side's opinion? I tend to project my views strongly, but I don't usually say my way is the only one that's correct, ESPECIALLY not with philosophy or genetics, which are both subjects where no one has the correct answer.

 

[Gandyy]

Nevermind, I'm out for reals

 

[PREMEDitated22]

.

 

[efle]

The racism that minorities experience on a day to day basis, along with a poor education in childhood, prevents them from reaching their full potential. How else can we explain the fact that even the few upper class minorities that exist have lower scores on average? The capitalist oligarchs systematically oppress minorities, largely through subtle cultural racism and police-enforced murder.
I apologize for being dismissive, but those who have not been properly educated often find the above statements rediculous.

A very nice dodge/redirect attempt, but that is all irrelevant. One can recognize all the things you mention and also recognize that AA is still doing more harm than good for increasing minority access to STEM and medicine

 

[PREMEDitated22]

And why, exactly, is it nonsense? Do you have any data to back up your dismissive attitude? Or are you like the others in this thread who scoff at the notion that intellect could exist on a spectrum merely because it's a sour thought to entertain (which, again, is 100% irrelevant).

Everyone gets in the habit of thinking it must be one or the other (my way or the highway!), when in reality it's almost certainly a combination of factors. What's even more surprising is people refuse to acknowledge the (partial) validity of the other side out of fear that their own position may be damaged.

And guilty of being dismissive and lack of evidence. In response to @Gandy741

 

[Mad Jack]

The racism that minorities experience on a day to day basis, along with a poor education in childhood, prevents them from reaching their full potential. How else can we explain the fact that even the few upper class minorities that exist have lower scores on average? The capitalist oligarchs systematically oppress minorities, largely through subtle cultural racism and police-enforced murder.
I apologize for being dismissive, but those who have not been properly educated often find the above statements rediculous.

As I said, most people are extremely ignorant of white supremacy and see the underperformance of blacks as caused by the cultural or even intellectual inferiority of minorities. This is nonsense. Only through understanding the subtleties of white supremacy can one make sense of the data.

*sigh* the ignorant and the pawns of white supremacy often see it this way, sadly. All we can do is hope that the truly learned scholars in the field are heard over all of the noise.

If it's so difficult to succeed because of white supremacy keeping people down because of the color of their skin, then why are Nigerian Americans the most educated group of people in America? And why do they have a substantially higher income than the national average? Clearly, the color of their skin hasn't served as a barrier to their education or their earnings. Perhaps, then, it is the values that they have brought with them that set them apart? Maybe the values of many in the inner city have degraded as families have been torn apart by drug wars, imprisonment, and gang violence, leaving people that are simply hopeless and don't even see success as an option, so they don't even try? You can't just say "it's a problem of skin color" when African immigrants, most notably those from Ghana and Nigeria, but also many black immigrants from the Caribbean, perform exceptionally well both academically and economically. Values certainly have a hell of a lot to do with it, as does self-perception. It will be interesting to see how the second generation of post-Civil Rights African immigrants fares- those that have African parents that grow up in the United States, you should pitch it as a study to some of your sociology friends.

http://news.yahoo.com/why-ivy-league-story-stirs-tensions-between-african-204556090.html

In any case, I'm still for affirmative action policies, regardless of the root cause of things. I just think that pointing fingers at an entire race (the white supremacy by violence nonsense- it's more of a class issue than anything, not one of race) doesn't solve the issue of racism or how to handle race in regard to admissions.

 

[Spector1]

Get. Over. It.
All of you.

how civil of you. People like you would have us believe that since asians and whites are not as oppressed as you supposedly are, we merit no consideration at all. We're basically second class citizens in your eyes.

 

[Demosthenes1]

It's already been done. Blacks from higher socioeconomic backgrounds still do worse than whites from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Blacks adopted and raised by white parents do worse than whites adopted and raised by black parents.

Proof?
Link?

 

[YourFutureBoss]

And why, exactly, is it nonsense? Do you have any data to back up your dismissive attitude? Or are you like the others in this thread who scoff at the notion that intellect could exist on a spectrum merely because it's a sour thought to entertain (which, again, is 100% irrelevant).

Everyone gets in the habit of thinking it must be one or the other (my way or the highway!), when in reality it's almost certainly a combination of factors. What's even more surprising is people refuse to acknowledge the (partial) validity of the other side out of fear that their own position may be damaged.

All IQ studies are born out of the racist capitalist system, and are therefore invalid. I think when all of academia says something is racist and incorrect, we can assume it is racist and incorrect.

A very nice dodge/redirect attempt, but that is all irrelevant. One can recognize all the things you mention and also recognize that AA is still doing more harm than good for increasing minority access to STEM and medicine

You're having a hard time understanding the argument. White supremacy is the cause for the lack of success of affirmative action. This is the only way we can explain minorities in the upper classes with lower test scores. Your assertion that the majority of minorities are unsuited to go to whatever Ivy League school you are thinking of is both racist and incorrect.

If it's so difficult to succeed because of white supremacy keeping people down because of the color of their skin, then why are Nigerian Americans the most educated group of people in America? And why do they have a substantially higher income than the national average? Clearly, the color of their skin hasn't served as a barrier to their education or their earnings. Perhaps, then, it is the values that they have brought with them that set them apart? Maybe the values of many in the inner city have degraded as families have been torn apart by drug wars, imprisonment, and gang violence, leaving people that are simply hopeless and don't even see success as an option, so they don't even try? You can't just say "it's a problem of skin color" when African immigrants, most notably those from Ghana and Nigeria, but also many black immigrants from the Caribbean, perform exceptionally well both academically and economically. Values certainly have a hell of a lot to do with it, as does self-perception. It will be interesting to see how the second generation of post-Civil Rights African immigrants fares- those that have African parents that grow up in the United States, you should pitch it as a study to some of your sociology friends.

http://news.yahoo.com/why-ivy-league-story-stirs-tensions-between-african-204556090.html

In any case, I'm still for affirmative action policies, regardless of the root cause of things. I just think that pointing fingers at an entire race (the white supremacy by violence nonsense- it's more of a class issue than anything, not one of race) doesn't solve the issue of racism or how to handle race in regard to admissions.

The Nigerian upper class has been a pawn of imperialism for a while now, which explains the amount of success Nigerian immigrants have had.
You seem to think that racism and classism are mutually exclusive. This is incorrect. Racism is born out of classism; Marx explained it pretty well.

 

[Mad Jack]

All IQ studies are born out of the racist capitalist system, and are therefore invalid. I think when all of academia says something is racist and incorrect, we can assume it is racist and incorrect.

You're having a hard time understanding the argument. White supremacy is the cause for the lack of success of affirmative action. This is the only way we can explain minorities in the upper classes with lower test scores. Your assertion that the majority of minorities are unsuited to go to whatever Ivy League school you are thinking of is both racist and incorrect.

The Nigerian upper class has been a pawn of imperialism for a while now, which explains the amount of success Nigerian immigrants have had.
You seem to think that racism and classism are mutually exclusive. This is incorrect. Racism is born out of classism; Marx explained it pretty well.

Marx was an idiot. And you're saying that color doesn't matter for the Nigerians in regard to education why, exactly? Why would it be a bad thing for black American culture to immitate their success?

 

[SabaChampion]

All IQ studies are born out of the racist capitalist system, and are therefore invalid. I think when all of academia says something is racist and incorrect, we can assume it is racist and incorrect.

Academia is a new age religion. Most academics are breath-takingly ignorant of science. Very few scientists dismiss the arguments on race and IQ as you have here.

You're having a hard time understanding the argument. White supremacy is the cause for the lack of success of affirmative action. This is the only way we can explain minorities in the upper classes with lower test scores. Your assertion that the majority of minorities are unsuited to go to whatever Ivy League school you are thinking of is both racist and incorrect.

Race and IQ explains this very well actually. Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? I guess we don't have to apply it when we think the answer is "racist" huh? You and @Axes should get together and form a club or something, because you are both entirely illiterate on the matter. Just because something "offends" you, doesn't mean it's not true. See page 3 for my links.

The Nigerian upper class has been a pawn of imperialism for a while now, which explains the amount of success Nigerian immigrants have had.
You seem to think that racism and classism are mutually exclusive. This is incorrect. Racism is born out of classism; Marx explained it pretty well.

Your fanaticism is nauseating. Read a textbook not filtered through the stupidity of your humanities department next time.

Proof?
Link?

A well known fact. See my links on page 3.

 

[YourFutureBoss]

Marx was an idiot. And you're saying that color doesn't matter for the Nigerians in regard to education why, exactly? Why would it be a bad thing for black American culture to immitate their success?

Black Nigerians hold more privilege then the typical African immigrant, that's all I'm saying. Black American's don't have a choice in the matter, as I explained in my previous post.

Academia is a new age religion. Most academics are breath-takingly ignorant of science. Very few scientists dismiss the arguments on race and IQ as you have here.

Race and IQ explains this very well actually. Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? I guess we don't have to apply it when we think the answer is "racist" huh? You and @Axes should get together and form a club or something, because you are both entirely illiterate on the matter. Just because something "offends" you, doesn't mean it's not true. See page 3 for my links.

Your fanaticism is nauseating. Read a textbook not filtered through the stupidity of your humanities department next time.

A well known fact. See my links on page 3.

Sorry, but I don't debate bigots.

 

[efle]

All IQ studies are born out of the racist capitalist system, and are therefore invalid. I think when all of academia says something is racist and incorrect, we can assume it is racist and incorrect.

You're having a hard time understanding the argument. White supremacy is the cause for the lack of success of affirmative action. This is the only way we can explain minorities in the upper classes with lower test scores. Your assertion that the majority of minorities are unsuited to go to whatever Ivy League school you are thinking of is both racist and incorrect.

The Nigerian upper class has been a pawn of imperialism for a while now, which explains the amount of success Nigerian immigrants have had.
You seem to think that racism and classism are mutually exclusive. This is incorrect. Racism is born out of classism; Marx explained it pretty well.

no, you are having a hard time. I agree that racism can be causing poorer performance than same SES peers. I am pointing out to you that responding to this with the current AA policy is nonsensical, as what you end up doing is taking people that would've become STEM and instead weeding them out in college.

This is what is apparent in the papers I linked if you read them - the fastest way to fix this system is to remove AA (so minority representation in STEM can increase) and put our efforts into early education quality / increasing academic readiness for college, which should result in more minority students having the academic readiness to compete at Ivy level schools without the higher attrition.

You follow? Racism bad. Racism make minority not as ready for intense college. Putting minority in competition with much more prepared people anyways = stupid, keeps survival low. Smarter to put against peers where they can survive, work more on getting people ready for college

 

[YourFutureBoss]

no, you are having a hard time. I agree that racism can be causing poorer performance than same SES peers. I am pointing out to you that responding to this with the current AA policy is nonsensical, as what you end up doing is taking people that would've become STEM and instead weeding them out in college.

This is what is apparent in the papers I linked if you read them - the fastest way to fix this system is to remove AA (so minority representation in STEM can increase) and put our efforts into early education quality / increasing academic readiness for college, which should result in more minority students having the academic readiness to compete at Ivy level schools without the higher attrition.

You follow? Racism bad. Racism make minority not as ready for intense college. Putting minority in competition with much more prepared people anyways = stupid, keeps survival low. Smarter to put against peers where they can survive, work more on getting people ready for college

We should do all of that while keeping affirmative action. I don't know if centuries of white supremacy can ever truly be undone. We have to do as much as possible to rectify the situation. That means affirmative action, reparations, changing the culture from the top down, chaining the educational system from the top-down, changing the way we use our language, etc. Removing AA while we attempt to "fix" the educational system is dumb, as we may only make minimal strides. If minorities our having a harder time at the undergraduate level, then things need to be changed at the undergraduate level. Perhaps an automatic 0.3 added to the GPA of the racially disadvantaged? We have to attack this thing from all sides.

tldr; I don't think lack of academic readiness is the problem, as white people from poor backgrounds tend to do better. More likely continued racism at the undergraduate level is to blame.

 

[ZedsDed]

Black Nigerians hold more privilege then the typical African immigrant, that's all I'm saying. Black American's don't have a choice in the matter, as I explained in my previous post.

Sorry, but I don't debate bigots.

Dismissing others out of hand, simply because you don't like them, is a poor way to argue.

 

[Spector1]

We should do all of that while keeping affirmative action. I don't know if centuries of white supremacy can ever truly be undone. We have to do as much as possible to rectify the situation. That means affirmative action, reparations, changing the culture from the top down, chaining the educational system from the top-down, changing the way we use our language, etc. Removing AA while we attempt to "fix" the educational system is dumb, as we may only make minimal strides. If minorities our having a harder time at the undergraduate level, then things need to be changed at the undergraduate level. Perhaps an automatic 0.3 added to the GPA of the racially disadvantaged? We have to attack this thing from all sides.

tldr; I don't think lack of academic readiness is the problem, as white people from poor backgrounds tend to do better. More likely continued racism at the undergraduate level is to blame.

Why do we need reparations. If the problem is bad schools, then fix them. But don't saddle the whole nation with white man's guilt.

 

[YourFutureBoss]

Why do we need reparations. If the problem is bad schools, then fix them. But don't saddle the whole nation with white man's guilt.

We are all complicit in the oppression of minorities in this country, some of us more than others.

 

[efle]

We should do all of that while keeping affirmative action. I don't know if centuries of white supremacy can ever truly be undone. We have to do as much as possible to rectify the situation. That means affirmative action, reparations, changing the culture from the top down, chaining the educational system from the top-down, changing the way we use our language, etc. Removing AA while we attempt to "fix" the educational system is dumb, as we may only make minimal strides. If minorities our having a harder time at the undergraduate level, then things need to be changed at the undergraduate level. Perhaps an automatic 0.3 added to the GPA of the racially disadvantaged? We have to attack this thing from all sides.

tldr; I don't think lack of academic readiness is the problem, as white people from poor backgrounds tend to do better. More likely continued racism at the undergraduate level is to blame.

Removing AA even if no other changes will be made STILL makes sense! It is a negative, pure and simple. If you want to see more minorities in STEM then you want to see AA gone, regardless of what else can or can't be implemented.

That is essentially already done but in reverse; instead of a bar for entry held constant and +0.x added to assessment for minorities, the assessment is held constant and the bar for entry dropped -0.x for minorities. Same result in the end. I'd love to see this changed to the form you're talking about here though, since for some reason people more clearly see an issue with "B counts as 3.0 for white
2.7 for Asians and 3.7 for blacks"

 

[SabaChampion]

We are all complicit in the oppression of minorities in this country, some of us more than others.

You are so far off the deep end it's ridiculous. I know you are not used to critical reasoning, but give it a shot, for your own sake.

I'd love to see this changed to the form you're talking about here though, since for some reason people more clearly see an issue with "B counts as 3.0 for white
2.7 for Asians and 3.7 for blacks"

Disgusting. I know you only haphazardly support this, but there is literally no possible benefit to lowering standards in college. The last thing we need as a society are incompetent engineers, doctors, lawyers, or whatever else.

 

[Womb Raider]

Perhaps an automatic 0.3 added to the GPA of the racially disadvantaged? We have to attack this thing from all sides.

LOL. And statements like this are exactly why I think you're crazy.

Artificially elevating student's scores won't fix any problems. It won't make them smarter. It won't make them better. It won't make them more capable of competing. It may get them a job, but at what cost? Instead of the "weed out" process happening during school, it will happen in the work force. You think someone wants to hire an engineer/teacher/physician/etc... who is incompetent? Give me a break.

This issue is old news - go do your homework on AA. The entire AA system only bumps up minorities if they are deemed competent and have a relatively competitive chance to be successful. It doesn't give an otherwise unqualified applicant the extra boost he needs to pass/get accepted.

Although I think it's very possible that racial intelligence differences are playing a role in the success the various minorities in the world, I think it's contribution is a very minor part in the grand scheme of things, and one that certainly can be overcome by hard work and good values. As others have said, I think the fundamental problem with unsuccessful minorities in this country stems from them living within a culture that promote/encourage/maintain certain values that do not foster "success" in the society that they live in.

tldr; I don't think lack of academic readiness is the problem, as white people from poor backgrounds tend to do better. More likely continued racism at the undergraduate level is to blame.

I'm not saying racism doesn't play a role in how successful one is in education, but c'mon now. I'm siting in a library as we speak reading a book. Hard to be affected by racism alone in a room studying.

Is there anything you don't blame racism / the white man for?

 

[efle]

Disgusting. I know you only haphazardly support this, but there is literally no possible benefit to lowering standards in college. The last thing we need as a society are incompetent engineers, doctors, lawyers, or whatever else.

Luckily the bar for being competitive is so far past the bar for medicine-capable that you can drop very far and still be in the realm of competence.

The entire AA system only bumps up minorities if they are deemed competent and have a relatively competitive chance to be successful.

Not really...see the Duke and UC papers I linked earlier. Huge overmatch effect

Is there anything you don't blame racism / the white man for?

You just can't understand, take some sociology classes and you'll see everything bad from earthquakes to malaria is a direct result of the privileged and their institutionalized/cultural racism

 

[Lawpy]

You just can't understand, take some sociology classes and you'll see everything bad from earthquakes to malaria is a direct result of the privileged and their institutionalized/cultural racism

 

[Womb Raider]

Not really...see the Duke and UC papers I linked earlier. Huge overmatch effect

Haven't had time to read the entire papers yet, hopefully sometime in the future.

However, I wonder if we can make an analogy to med school.

Lower stats individuals --> get accepted because they can "make it through" med school --> graduate from med school, but go into a less competitive residency/field (of course, those that are forced into family medicine will chalk it up to a self-righteous reason most of the time)

Lower stat individuals --> get accepted because they can "make it through" college --> graduate from undergrad, but are more likely to graduate in a less competitive field (e.g. not STEM)

I don't have any numbers for any of this, just thinking out loud. It would be interested to see a comparison of AA-affected students, their step scores / residency positions compared to the rest.

 

[WingedOx]

I half-read* your papers efle, and the paper itself seemed to rely on the assumption that the degree of STEM weeding out is proportional to the selectivity of the school... which applies for only a minority of schools. Orgo at Ohio State isn't likely to be any easier than Orgo at Toledo or OU, for example.

/your alma matter is probably closer to the exception than the rule... but we've had more than enough threads on that.

 

[YourFutureBoss]

LOL. And statements like this are exactly why I think you're crazy.

Artificially elevating student's scores won't fix any problems. It won't make them smarter. It won't make them better. It won't make them more capable of competing. It may get them a job, but at what cost? Instead of the "weed out" process happening during school, it will happen in the work force. You think someone wants to hire an engineer/teacher/physician/etc... who is incompetent? Give me a break.

They are equally competent as their white/Asian counterparts. The fact that they are underperforming is due to outside factors. The fact that you don't recognize this is disturbing.

Although I think it's very possible that racial intelligence differences are playing a role in the success the various minorities in the world, I think it's contribution is a very minor part in the grand scheme of things, and one that certainly can be overcome by hard work and good values. As others have said, I think the fundamental problem with unsuccessful minorities in this country stems from them living within a culture that promote/encourage/maintain certain values that do not foster "success" in the society that they live in.

Nonsense. There are sociologists who are debating whether or not intelligence even really exists, or if it is simply a social construct; same with human nature. The idea of a "black nature" or "white nature" literally doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying racism doesn't play a role in how successful one is in education, but c'mon now. I'm siting in a library as we speak reading a book. Hard to be affected by racism alone in a room studying.

Is there anything you don't blame racism / the white man for?

Culture influences everything. When it comes to the power structures of our nation (of which the university is a part of)...everything is racist, everything is sexist, everything is pro cis-gendered white male, everything is pro the capitalist class. The only reason you can't see this, is because you have spent your entire life being educated by the capitalist class.

You just can't understand, take some sociology classes and you'll see everything bad from earthquakes to malaria is a direct result of the privileged and their institutionalized/cultural racism

You joke, but everything, to a greater or lesser extent, is influenced by culture. Culture is run by the capitalist class. I can't remember his name, but there was one brilliant anthropologist who wrote about how sickle-cell anemia has only become a "racial disease" due to imperialism.