anasthesia competitiveness

[RonaldColeman]

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Is it just me, or is anasthesia really competitive this year? This is, by far, the most popular specialty discussion on SDN. Also, at my school, I swear there must be 30 people interested in anasthesia.

 

[rs2006]

Not to sound entirely cynical, but I am also a fourth year medical student and based on what I have heard, approximately 20% of my class is going into gas this year which is a TREMENDOUS INCREASE in gasdocs since only a few years ago, we would be lucky to put out one Anesthesiologist in a fair size class of new MDs. What is truly interesting is that of the people that I know are going into gas that MANY of them told me that " I am going into anesthesia[and thus will be applying to anesthesia residency programs]" but yet at the same time had NEVER rotated through anesthesia. Also, several of the other students who are going into anesthesia keep talking about the $$ (400k/year) which many have told me that is not present in most other specialties and I think since everyone keeps insisting that anesthesia is a specialty which will be "golden forever-- the income in anesthesiology will ALWAYS be $400k/year (and possibly more)" while the income for most other specialties (the exception being the almost impossible to get in derm, ophtho, etc) is on the decline. I know this sounds incredibly cynical (and I am sorry for that), but I would like to hear anyone else's experiences on this matter.

Is it just me, or is anasthesia really competitive this year? This is, by far, the most popular specialty discussion on SDN. Also, at my school, I swear there must be 30 people interested in anasthesia.

 

[militarymd]

Everything is supply and demand....With all these schmucks doing anesthesia, by the time they graduate, we'll all be lucky to make 150 a year.

 

[redstorm]

go into anesthesiology only if you like it and you enjoy the specialty.. if you dont you will be miserable..

ive been out in practice for several years.. and I do not make 400 k... not even close.. I dont even know any of my friends who are making that..

 

[driverabu]

go into anesthesiology only if you like it and you enjoy the specialty.. if you dont you will be miserable..

ive been out in practice for several years.. and I do not make 400 k... not even close.. I dont even know any of my friends who are making that..

Location, location, location. It's true that most gas docs who choose to practice in big cities where anesthesiologists are a dime a dozen (not to mention CRNAs) do not make a whole lot. Now, try going to a rural or even suburban area where gas docs are really needed.....you'll be making some serious cash. However, the bottom line is do not pick a specialty because of money!!

 

[lvspro]

Is it just me, or is anasthesia really competitive this year? This is, by far, the most popular specialty discussion on SDN. Also, at my school, I swear there must be 30 people interested in anasthesia.

Yup, definitely more competitive. The competition, though, is more a change in demographics, than actual spots/applicant. More US allo are appplying, edging out a good number of DO's. Furthermore, IMG's were heavily concentrated in this field (about 7-10 yrs ago), and they're being edged out by the US applicants that think anesthesia is a lifestyle specialty. Hence the overall match rate has remained at around 95% or so over the last few years, but there has definitley been a change in the demographic. This info can be confirmed at the ASA website where they list the match statistics for previous yrs. Personally, from the other grads from about 3 classes, and I that are applying this year there is about a 30% interest in anesthesia. I spoke to the student coordinator, and she said that over the last few years, there has been a tremendous increase in the interest in anesthesiology. Furthermore, she also said that there has been a corresponding decrease in the number of IMG's matching. We spoke further, and when I mentioned that the hours out of work can be controlled ...blah, blah, blah... they make relatively good $$, she kind of said "it figures."

BTW, didn't mean to strike a nerve on the other thread. I just get tired of other people going out of their way to make themselves good at the expense of others.

Anyhow, hope I answered the question... flex. 😀

 

[redstorm]

I mean if you went to medical school to see patients in the office and take care of their complaints and see them b ack in a few weeks to see if your intervention worked and have somewhat of a continuity of care.. anesthesia is definitely not for you.. even if anesthesiologists were paid one million dollars a year you would not be satisfied because you are not doing what you wanted to do.

 

[lvspro]

Everything is supply and demand....With all these schmucks doing anesthesia, by the time they graduate, we'll all be lucky to make 150 a year.

I've got a feeling that the ones in it for the money might change their minds after a year or so, and head towards other specialties. I've found that unless you really like what you're doing behind that curtain, you'll get bored quick. In fact, I've never really seen or heard of anyone leaving anesthesiology until the last couple of years. I'm guessing that those people were either in it for the money or lifestyle, and found that they would die of boredom if they did this as a career. Anyhow, just my $.02, which is only worth about $.00002.

 

[powermd]

I've got a feeling that the ones in it for the money might change their minds after a year or so, and head towards other specialties. I've found that unless you really like what you're doing behind that curtain, you'll get bored quick. In fact, I've never really seen or heard of anyone leaving anesthesiology until the last couple of years. I'm guessing that those people were either in it for the money or lifestyle, and found that they would die of boredom if they did this as a career. Anyhow, just my $.02, which is only worth about $.00002.

I agree. Interestingly, despite the surge in interest in anesthesia (and much of that being due to $$$), none of my fellow CA-1 residents have indicated in any way that they don't enjoy doing anesthesiology. Maybe that's partly because we're at a good program. You would have to be pretty stupid to try to match a field you haven't at least rotated through. I doubt the money-crazed dilettantes will get far before second thoughts deter them from trying to match the field. If they do- so what, they'll drop out leaving more jobs for the rest of us.

 

[toughlife]

.

 

[toughlife]

Not to sound entirely cynical, but I am also a fourth year medical student and based on what I have heard, approximately 20% of my class is going into gas this year which is a TREMENDOUS INCREASE in gasdocs since only a few years ago, we would be lucky to put out one Anesthesiologist in a fair size class of new MDs. What is truly interesting is that of the people that I know are going into gas that MANY of them told me that " I am going into anesthesia[and thus will be applying to anesthesia residency programs]" but yet at the same time had NEVER rotated through anesthesia. Also, several of the other students who are going into anesthesia keep talking about the $$ (400k/year) which many have told me that is not present in most other specialties and I think since everyone keeps insisting that anesthesia is a specialty which will be "golden forever-- the income in anesthesiology will ALWAYS be $400k/year (and possibly more)" while the income for most other specialties (the exception being the almost impossible to get in derm, ophtho, etc) is on the decline. I know this sounds incredibly cynical (and I am sorry for that), but I would like to hear anyone else's experiences on this matter.

I've always had a theory about why med students choose certain specialties.
First, I've noticed that many (not all) who come from wealthy families, went to IV leagues, etc, etc are always going for the specialties with the biggest paychecks. While those students who come from middle class homes, tend to choose not so competitive specialties.

I usually like to learn about people's backgrounds and I've done so with many of my classmates applying this year and have noticed such trend.

Of course, my sample is small ~35-40 but this is just a trend I have noticed.

 

[Idiopathic]

All I know-I was told that UF had 600+ apps and Wake had 800+. Likely that MGH, BW, UCSF are looking at 1000+. I dont know if this means that the moderately/less competitive programs bear the brunt of the extra applicants or not, since the increased number of apps are likely not the most competitive ones.

 

[rs2006]

Hi all,

Interesting that you state that [many students] think that anesthesia is a lifestyle specialty-- is that a myth or a falacy? I generally define lifestyle as "number of hours worked per week," but it seems that all medical students, doctors, and residents seem to think that the word is simply a euphemism for Money (people feel uncomfortable stating openly that they are chasing money)-- is this a fair statement? Based on what I have gleaned from looking at the AMA stats for average number of hours worked per week by specialty (see below), Anesthesia checks in at 61 hours/ wk-- even more than general surgery-- what gives-- is anesthesia REALLY a "lifestyle specialty"?
Obstetrics and Gynecology 61
Anesthesiology 61
Urology 60.5
Surgery 60
Radiology (diagnostic) 58
Orthopedic Surgery 58
Internal medicine 57
Neurology 55.5
Pediatrics 54
Otolaryngology 53.5
Family Practice 52.5
Psychiatry 48
Ophthalmology 47
Emergency Medicine 46
Dermatology 45.5
Pathology 45.5

Yup, definitely more competitive. The competition, though, is more a change in demographics, than actual spots/applicant. More US allo are appplying, edging out a good number of DO's. Furthermore, IMG's were heavily concentrated in this field (about 7-10 yrs ago), and they're being edged out by the US applicants that think anesthesia is a lifestyle specialty. Hence the overall match rate has remained at around 95% or so over the last few years, but there has definitley been a change in the demographic. This info can be confirmed at the ASA website where they list the match statistics for previous yrs. Personally, from the other grads from about 3 classes, and I that are applying this year there is about a 30% interest in anesthesia. I spoke to the student coordinator, and she said that over the last few years, there has been a tremendous increase in the interest in anesthesiology. Furthermore, she also said that there has been a corresponding decrease in the number of IMG's matching. We spoke further, and when I mentioned that the hours out of work can be controlled ...blah, blah, blah... they make relatively good $$, she kind of said "it figures."

BTW, didn't mean to strike a nerve on the other thread. I just get tired of other people going out of their way to make themselves good at the expense of others.

Anyhow, hope I answered the question... flex. 😀

 

[Etomidate]

Hi all,

Interesting that you state that [many students] think that anesthesia is a lifestyle specialty-- is that a myth or a falacy? I generally define lifestyle as "number of hours worked per week," but it seems that all medical students, doctors, and residents seem to think that the word is simply a euphemism for Money (people feel uncomfortable stating openly that they are chasing money)-- is this a fair statement? Based on what I have gleaned from looking at the AMA stats for average number of hours worked per week by specialty (see below), Anesthesia checks in at 61 hours/ wk-- even more than general surgery-- what gives-- is anesthesia REALLY a "lifestyle specialty"?
Obstetrics and Gynecology 61
Anesthesiology 61
Urology 60.5
Surgery 60
Radiology (diagnostic) 58
Orthopedic Surgery 58
Internal medicine 57
Neurology 55.5
Pediatrics 54
Otolaryngology 53.5
Family Practice 52.5
Psychiatry 48
Ophthalmology 47
Emergency Medicine 46
Dermatology 45.5
Pathology 45.5

I agree that anesthesia is really not a lifestyle specialty. Of physicians in the 3 private practice groups I've talked with, one averages about 60 hours/week, the other 68, and the other 72.

 

[driverabu]

Hi all,

Interesting that you state that [many students] think that anesthesia is a lifestyle specialty-- is that a myth or a falacy? I generally define lifestyle as "number of hours worked per week," but it seems that all medical students, doctors, and residents seem to think that the word is simply a euphemism for Money (people feel uncomfortable stating openly that they are chasing money)-- is this a fair statement? Based on what I have gleaned from looking at the AMA stats for average number of hours worked per week by specialty (see below), Anesthesia checks in at 61 hours/ wk-- even more than general surgery-- what gives-- is anesthesia REALLY a "lifestyle specialty"?
Obstetrics and Gynecology 61
Anesthesiology 61
Urology 60.5
Surgery 60
Radiology (diagnostic) 58
Orthopedic Surgery 58
Internal medicine 57
Neurology 55.5
Pediatrics 54
Otolaryngology 53.5
Family Practice 52.5
Psychiatry 48
Ophthalmology 47
Emergency Medicine 46
Dermatology 45.5
Pathology 45.5

It seriously depends on where you look for your data. I'm not saying that the AMA is off in any way, however, in Iserson's getting into a residency, these are the published data:
Orthopods: 61
General surgery: 60
Cards: 58
Anesthesiology: 55
Gastro: 52
Radio: 50
Ob/gyn: 49
medicine: 49
family: 46
peds: 44
path: 44
psych: 40
derm: 40
emergency: 39

Now, Iserson also gets this info from the AMA. The point being, it depends where you work!! Every single family doc and surgeon where I am from always talks about the "nice life" the gas docs, derm docs, radio docs, etc. have. You go somewhere else, it's a different story. Point being, most gas docs I know are living pretty darn good lifes if you ask me. Now, as far as chasing money...I agree with that to a point. Most US grads are now going into the specialty b/c of money and "lifestyle." Need more proof....how many US grads this year are going into family? Medicine? Peds? Psych? Is it just a coincidence that those 4 specialties I mentioned are the lowest of the low when it comes to salary AND lifestyle? I think not! If people really want to know which specialities offer the best "lifestyle" AND financial gain.....follow the US grad trend. That is NOT to say that US grads are all in it for the money and lifestyle because that would be very stupid for me to say since that is not true. I'm just saying to ask fellow MS4s what they are going into to get a better idea of the "lifestyle" specialties.

 

[souljah1]

I am amazed at how popular anesthesia is becoming as a specialty. Every year at UCSF there is a specialty that attracts a ton of applicants. Last year it was EM, and we matched around 26 in emergency medicine. This year it is anesthesia. My friend told me that the initial meeting for students planning on applying for anesthesia had between 25-30 people! This is in a class of 150. It seems as if every student I talk to here is planning on doing anesthesia.


.

 

[Monitor]

Well,

I don't know many jokes, but I like to control the room...

So, I get to practice my lines on different people all the time and if they start to heckle me --> lights out

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

 

[Idiopathic]

The point about the "lifestyle" part of the specialty is this: the specialty is not as physically demanding as the others in the 60+ hour week club. Your rounds are minimal, few to no patient admits, no clinic (except pain) and often times salaries in the top 15% of physicians with ample vacation time.

People like anesthesia for different reasons, but, honestly, when you factor in one night of call per week, those hours dont look to bad to me. Also, 70+ hours per week is not likely in this specialty, without 2+ call nights a week. Lifestyle is certainly a consideration, and I think (hope) that PD's understand that a flat 10-15% of the applicants want to do anesthesia because they think its "400k a year and 12 weeks off" and weed those out.

 

[bigdan]

10-15% of the applicants want to do anesthesia because they think its "400k a year and 12 weeks off" and weed those out.

Agreed. They should tell these guys about radiology, where the above is actually true 😉

Stony Brook's 2006 class, out of ~100 is looking at 15-18 folks applying for anesthesia. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out...

dc

 

[Idiopathic]

At the UF social gathering, the PD came up to me and said "You're from XXX med school, right? I think I got 15 apps from your school this year!"


Thats nice. Class of 86 people, btw.

 

[lvspro]

It seriously depends on where you look for your data. I'm not saying that the AMA is off in any way, however, in Iserson's getting into a residency, these are the published data:
Orthopods: 61
General surgery: 60
Cards: 58
Anesthesiology: 55
Gastro: 52
Radio: 50
Ob/gyn: 49
medicine: 49
family: 46
peds: 44
path: 44
psych: 40
derm: 40
emergency: 39

Now, Iserson also gets this info from the AMA. The point being, it depends where you work!! Every single family doc and surgeon where I am from always talks about the "nice life" the gas docs, derm docs, radio docs, etc. have. You go somewhere else, it's a different story. Point being, most gas docs I know are living pretty darn good lifes if you ask me. Now, as far as chasing money...I agree with that to a point. Most US grads are now going into the specialty b/c of money and "lifestyle." Need more proof....how many US grads this year are going into family? Medicine? Peds? Psych? Is it just a coincidence that those 4 specialties I mentioned are the lowest of the low when it comes to salary AND lifestyle? I think not! If people really want to know which specialities offer the best "lifestyle" AND financial gain.....follow the US grad trend. That is NOT to say that US grads are all in it for the money and lifestyle because that would be very stupid for me to say since that is not true. I'm just saying to ask fellow MS4s what they are going into to get a better idea of the "lifestyle" specialties.

55 is the number I've read. As idio states though, it's the distribution of hours. When you're working, you're really bustin tail, but since you don't have your own pts, you're hours out of work are protected. So the way it pans out is that you do take call, and you work a lot, but you can leave it all at work, and go home. Also, the pay is good, but you definitely need to put the hours in to earn the 3-400k's.

 

[RonaldColeman]

BTW, didn't mean to strike a nerve on the other thread. I just get tired of other people going out of their way to make themselves good at the expense of others.

Anyhow, hope I answered the question... flex. 😀

No problem. I understand the frustration. Just a misunderstanding on both sides. So cutler or coleman?

 

[lvspro]

No problem. I understand the frustration. Just a misunderstanding on both sides. So cutler or coleman?

RC is the man, no way around it, but I think cutler is due. My all time hero's are arnold, and zane though. Zane was so damn ripped. The older I get,the more I'm starting to value the importance of staying lean. It's just so much harder to rip down now then it was when I was 21. And arnold was just, well... arnold.

 

[redstorm]

55 is the number I've read. As idio states though, it's the distribution of hours. When you're working, you're really bustin tail, but since you don't have your own pts, you're hours out of work are protected. So the way it pans out is that you do take call, and you work a lot, but you can leave it all at work, and go home. Also, the pay is good, but you definitely need to put the hours in to earn the 3-400k's.

thats right.. a salary o=in the 400 range .. is working your ass off.. taking 5-6 call nights a month.. weekends.. staying in the OR 10-12 hours per day.. ducking out maybe for 15 minutes for lunch.. 20 mins for dinner.. squeezing in maybe 10 mins for a pee break or to take a dump... dont take your time .. go quick.. taking calls from the pacu... reintubating patients.. this kind of lifestyle can lead to some bad things... gastritis, (eating too fast, unhealthy cafeteria food.. always rushed) hemmorhoids... htn, ... SO i wou ldnt call this an easy living...

 

[Orchard]

thats right.. a salary o=in the 400 range .. is working your ass off.. taking 5-6 call nights a month.. weekends.. staying in the OR 10-12 hours per day.. ducking out maybe for 15 minutes for lunch.. 20 mins for dinner.. squeezing in maybe 10 mins for a pee break or to take a dump... dont take your time .. go quick.. taking calls from the pacu... reintubating patients.. this kind of lifestyle can lead to some bad things... gastritis, (eating too fast, unhealthy cafeteria food.. always rushed) hemmorhoids... htn, ... SO i wou ldnt call this an easy living...

Depends on where you work. I'm at a small community hospital, no OB with a pretty chill day. I get in around 7:30 and leave between 3:30 and 4:00 p.m. Ample time for lunch, 75% CRNA supervision....pretty easy gig; and I make $320k. It's all in where you work, gang.

 

[lvspro]

Depends on where you work. I'm at a small community hospital, no OB with a pretty chill day. I get in around 7:30 and leave between 3:30 and 4:00 p.m. Ample time for lunch, 75% CRNA supervision....pretty easy gig; and I make $320k. It's all in where you work, gang.

How long have you been in practice?

 

[Orchard]

How long have you been in practice?

2 years

 

[lvspro]

2 years

😱
Where do I sign?


Sounds like one heck of a set-up.

 

[Lonestar]

uh, get in line buddy. residency first then the job. 😀

 

[rs2006]

Hi all,
All the salaries above sound great-- how long do you feel that those jobs are going to last-- any attendings out there with some years in the field-- how long do you see theses salaries lasting? Any thoughts.

uh, get in line buddy. residency first then the job. 😀

 

[me454555]

Hi all,
All the salaries above sound great-- how long do you feel that those jobs are going to last-- any attendings out there with some years in the field-- how long do you see theses salaries lasting? Any thoughts.

If anyone knew the asnwer to this question, they'd be in the stock market making millions. The simple answer is that no one can predict the future and no one will be able to tell you how long or short these jobs will be around for.

 

[lvspro]

If anyone knew the asnwer to this question, they'd be in the stock market making millions. The simple answer is that no one can predict the future and no one will be able to tell you how long or short these jobs will be around for.

True. Although their have been studies showing a deficit in anesthesiologists projected to last another decade, you can't really tell the future. If you want the reference, look into my past posts.
Even so, I gotta agree w/me45..., b/c no one has a crystal ball.