Anesthesia peak of competitiveness?

[Dr. Anonymouss]

I have heard the competitiveness of this specialty tends to come in waves and right now it sure seems like it is highly desirable. Why do you think we are seeing this trend right now and what are your prediction for the 2024 cycle. A continued blood bath or will this scare some people away?

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

Will get more competitive as people flee from rads due to fear of artificial intelligence. Would assume that any procedural specialty even general surgery will become harder to match

 

[ProPropofol]

I have been kind of surprised at how competitive anesthesia has gotten. I have medical students come up to me all the time to ask for advice/insight. Our academic center has at least 15 or so medical students applying anesthesia this year. I remember when I was one of three applying for anesthesia in my medical school class. Notably, it seems like fellowship spots for anesthesia are very easily obtainable at the institution of your choice lately as so many residents are opting for general positions with the market being hot. The last fellowship cycle, I believe everyone matched at their top program for fellowship.

I agree with the field going through waves. I think this year and maybe for the next year or two it will continue to be competitive. Whenever the salaries start to drop for whatever reason (private equity imploding, unreasonable expansion of mid-levels, hospitals cutting back on expenses, etc) then the competitiveness will decrease. Do eventually think salaries will drop with the "No Surprises" Act and more hospital employed anesthesiologists on the horizon as opposed to PP and private equity positions.

 

[UscGhost]

I have been kind of surprised at how competitive anesthesia has gotten. I have medical students come up to me all the time to ask for advice/insight. Our academic center has at least 15 or so medical students applying anesthesia this year. I remember when I was one of three applying for anesthesia in my medical school class. Notably, it seems like fellowship spots for anesthesia are very easily obtainable at the institution of your choice lately as so many residents are opting for general positions with the market being hot. The last fellowship cycle, I believe everyone matched at their top program for fellowship.

I agree with the field going through waves. I think this year and maybe for the next year or two it will continue to be competitive. Whenever the salaries start to drop for whatever reason (private equity imploding, unreasonable expansion of mid-levels, hospitals cutting back on expenses, etc) then the competitiveness will decrease. Do eventually think salaries will drop with the "No Surprises" Act and more hospital employed anesthesiologists on the horizon as opposed to PP and private equity positions.

I believe almost 50% of active anesthesiologists are 55 or over. I don't think the shortage is going away anytime soon.

We may see fluctuatations in specific markets though.

In SoCal, the cost of living is a significant burden of entry for new grads. Especially since many don't want to grind. So we have additional factors working against the supply side

 

[anbuitachi]

I believe almost 50% of active anesthesiologists are 55 or over. I don't think the shortage is going away anytime soon.

We may see fluctuatations in specific markets though.

In SoCal, the cost of living is a significant burden of entry for new grads. Especially since many don't want to grind. So we have additional factors working against the supply side

how does that even work. i thought graduating class is bigger than ever. how can over 50% be over 55? doesnt that just mean anesthesiologists aren't retiring? If anesthesiologists actually retiring in 50s or early 60s, no way 50% over 55. its probably because they are broken and too many are working to their 70s +

 

[aneftp]

Wonder why aamc and acgme got ride of all that data. It’s like things were wiped out. Here is med school data acceptance rates and it’s actually easier to get into med school these days compared to late 80s/early 90s.

https://www.aamc.org/media/8661/download

I will try to fish around for anesthesiology competitiveness. But those finishing med school around 1990 and entering anesthesia residency. I believe those were the absolute peak years. So those who finished their training 1994/1995.

 

[DazedWanderer]

how does that even work. i thought graduating class is bigger than ever. how can over 50% be over 55? doesnt that just mean anesthesiologists aren't retiring? If anesthesiologists actually retiring in 50s or early 60s, no way 50% over 55. its probably because they are broken and too many are working to their 70s +

According to the AAMC 54.5% of anesthesiologists are 55+ as of 2019

Active Physicians by Age and Specialty, 2019

Active Physicians by Age and Specialty, 2019

www.aamc.org

 

[ambiturner]

Wonder why aamc and acgme got ride of all that data. It’s like things were wiped out. Here is med school data acceptance rates and it’s actually easier to get into med school these days compared to late 80s/early 90s.

https://www.aamc.org/media/8661/download

I will try to fish around for anesthesiology competitiveness. But those finishing med school around 1990 and entering anesthesia residency. I believe those were the absolute peak years. So those who finished their training 1994/1995.

In the late 80s some specialties were making as much as professional athletes. Medicine had unequaled compensation but took a big hit in 1993 (I believe the absolute peak of competitiveness) when Clinton proposed national healthcare. Went down but rebounded when the sky turned out not to be falling (completely).

A lot of my anesthesia attendings who graduated med school circa 1985-1990 were stellar, AOA types from top schools. Lots of good technology and developments were coming into the field and it was a much more humane residency than surgery before duty hours. A lot of them said they would have done surgery had they graduated in the 80-hour era.

 

[sevoflurane]

According to the AAMC 54.5% of anesthesiologists are 55+ as of 2019

Active Physicians by Age and Specialty, 2019

Active Physicians by Age and Specialty, 2019

www.aamc.org

I bet that number decreased after the pandemic plus increased interest in the field. I’m turning 50 next year and am definitely one of the older cats in my group. I’d say 75% are younger than me. A lot of mid 30’s early 40’s. Only a hand full in their 60’s.

 

[nimbus]

I believe almost 50% of active anesthesiologists are 55 or over. I don't think the shortage is going away anytime soon.

We may see fluctuatations in specific markets though.

In SoCal, the cost of living is a significant burden of entry for new grads. Especially since many don't want to grind. So we have additional factors working against the supply side

Warren Buffett calls that a moat.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

I bet that number decreased after the pandemic plus increased interest in the field. I’m turning 50 next year and am definitely one of the older cats in my group. I’d say 75% are younger than me. A lot of mid 30’s early 40’s. Only a hand full in their 60’s.

Increased interest in the field doesn’t matter! All the spots get filled every year after you do the match and scramble (now called SOAP).

If interest is low, it’s easier to match with lower stats. If interest is high, it’s harder to match with lower stats. If interest is almost zero, there’s a ton of FMG’s waiting in line for the spot.

 

[Sriddymopboi]

I bet that number decreased after the pandemic plus increased interest in the field. I’m turning 50 next year and am definitely one of the older cats in my group. I’d say 75% are younger than me. A lot of mid 30’s early 40’s. Only a hand full in their 60’s.

"My n=1 is better than thousands of data points!" And also, as of 2021 56.9% of anesthesiologists are over 55

 

[ambiturner]

"My n=1 is better than thousands of data points!" And also, as of 2021 56.9% of anesthesiologists are over 55

His practice is in Nevada, a growing area that probably doesn’t have a ton of older docs because there were way less people living there when they started. I imagine you’d find a higher percentage of older anesthesiologists in New Jersey, Illinois, Maryland, etc.

 

[sevoflurane]

"My n=1 is better than thousands of data points!" And also, as of 2021 56.9% of anesthesiologists are over 55

You missed my point entirely.

 

[anbuitachi]

if 55% over 55, that means over half are closer to retirement age, than new graduating attending age. this means either anesthesiologists are not retiring / are retiring very late, or it means younger attendings are leaving the field, or fewer graduates.

 

[Dr. Rude]

if 55% over 55, that means over half are closer to retirement age, than new graduating attending age. this means either anesthesiologists are not retiring / are retiring very late, or it means younger attendings are leaving the field, or fewer graduates.

There was a dearth of graduates for about 5 years in the mid-late 90s. Also anesthesia is a field where it is easy to go part time and hang around well into your 60s.

 

[Sriddymopboi]

You missed my point entirely.

How did I miss your point entirely? Your point is that you used your single example and you made an incorrect prediction, what's the point to be made here exactly? Did you see that MORE physicians are now over the age of 55 in 2021 compared to 2019?

 

[Fpg1245]

How many new programs have opened in the last few years? Seeing a lot of HCA ones opening up.

 

[sevoflurane]

How did I miss your point entirely? Your point is that you used your single example and you made an incorrect prediction, what's the point to be made here exactly? Did you see that MORE physicians are now over the age of 55 in 2021 compared to 2019?

Ya you're still missing it. Lol.

You are quoting 2021 data.
What percentage of those over 55 y/o do you think carry a full work load?
What is the average age of retirement for an anesthesiologist?
Is anesthesia more popular amongst residents than in years past?

I did not ascert anything. What I suggested is that data may change.

Physician retirements to hit health care industry hard

Burnout is pushing many doctors to retire, but administrators think it is something else

www.medicaleconomics.com

 

[UscGhost]

Also, anesthesia is a family friendly field. So many graduates can graduate and work part time right away, have kids, etc.

 

[DesiredMemberName?]

A little off-topic, but on that site it looks like less than half of active interventional cardiologists have US degrees. Can that really be the case? More than half of practicing interventional cardiologists are foreign medical grads.

It can be a hardworking specialty, but it’s also one of the most highly compensated.

Active Physicians With a U.S. Doctor of Medicine (U.S. MD) Degree by Specialty, 2021

View the number and percentage of active physicians with a U.S. MD degree for each of the specialty categories featured in the Physician Specialty Data Report.

www.aamc.org

 

[anbuitachi]

A little off-topic, but on that site it looks like less than half of active interventional cardiologists have US degrees. Can that really be the case? More than half of practicing interventional cardiologists are foreign medical grads.

It can be a hardworking specialty, but it’s also one of the most highly compensated.

Active Physicians With a U.S. Doctor of Medicine (U.S. MD) Degree by Specialty, 2021

View the number and percentage of active physicians with a U.S. MD degree for each of the specialty categories featured in the Physician Specialty Data Report.

www.aamc.org

definitely believe it. a huge number of interventional cardiologists, and IC fellows that ive met are indian, foreign trained.

 

[nimbus]

definitely believe it. a huge number of interventional cardiologists, and IC fellows that ive met are indian, foreign trained.

We have many more USMD 1st generation immigrants but there’s probably a lot of regional variation.

I think people who are willing to move 8000 miles from home to a strange new land are also more willing to repeat training, sign up for extra years of training, and jump through any other hoops presented in their way.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Many physicians wait to retire until their late 60s or 70s, but if you’re considering an early transition to retirement, you’re not alone. Nearly 30% of physicians retire between 60 and 65 years old, and 12% retire before 60, according to survey research conducted by AMA Insurance Agency Inc., a subsidiary of the AMA.

My hunch is that 1/2 of all anesthesiologists either retire or go part-time by age 65. The other 1/2 consists of those who need the money or simply have nothing else to do all day.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

Millennials Want to Retire at 50. Affording It Is Another Matter

Despite their confidence, millennials aren’t saving enough. Many aren’t contributing enough to their 401(k) to get the full employer match.

rethinking65.com

 

[BLADEMDA]

10 Million Dollars: The Ideal Net Worth Amount For Retirement?​

267 Comments / By Financial Samurai / 04/10/2023
Curious to know the ideal net worth for retirement? As someone fake retired in 2012 at age 34 with $3 million, let me tell you.
I was talking to a tennis friend of mine who said his sister checked out once she cleared 10 million dollars. She was 37 when she decided to quit her job and go on an Eat, Pray, Love journey to Southeast Asia. She had made a bulk of her fortune as an early investor in an internet consumer company.
My friend and I then got to talking about other people we knew who checked out in their 30s and 40s. They too, had cleared over 10 million dollars in net worth or investable assets. They had all been early employees at successful startups. Or they had risen up the ranks at a big tech company while holding a lot of shares.
Even a 30-year-old softball buddy of mine who worked at Uber said he's shooting to have a $10 million net worth before he retires.
As a personal finance blogger, I subsequently got to thinking: Is 10 million dollars the ideal net worth amount for retirement? Is 10 million actually the new one million due to inflation? It seems to me that a net worth of $10 million or greater is ideal before leaving work behind.

10 Million Dollars: The Ideal Net Worth Amount For Retirement?

Curious to know the ideal net worth for retirement? As someone fake retired in 2012 at age 34 with $3 million, let me tell you. $10 million sounds like the ideal amount of money to retire with. I was talking to a tennis friend of mine who said his sister checked out once she cleared

www.financialsamurai.com

 

[BLADEMDA]

Is 10 million net worth considered rich?​

You might need $5 million to $10 million to qualify as having a very high net worth while it may take $30 million or more to be considered ultra-high net worth. That's how financial advisors typically view wealth.

How much income can 10 million generate?​

So, with a $10 million portfolio, you would earn between $200,000 to $500,000 per year.

 

[anbuitachi]

A little off-topic, but on that site it looks like less than half of active interventional cardiologists have US degrees. Can that really be the case? More than half of practicing interventional cardiologists are foreign medical grads.

It can be a hardworking specialty, but it’s also one of the most highly compensated.

Active Physicians With a U.S. Doctor of Medicine (U.S. MD) Degree by Specialty, 2021

View the number and percentage of active physicians with a U.S. MD degree for each of the specialty categories featured in the Physician Specialty Data Report.

www.aamc.org

it acutally reminded me of a well known IC guy (Samin Sharma) in nyc ( i trained in nyc). the guy makes 5M a year. graduated from indian medical school

 

[rowsdower88]

View attachment 373172

Super interesting graph.

 

[linkin06]

🔥🔥🔥

 

[Dr. Rude]

Is 10 million net worth considered rich?​

You might need $5 million to $10 million to qualify as having a very high net worth while it may take $30 million or more to be considered ultra-high net worth. That's how financial advisors typically view wealth.

How much income can 10 million generate?​

So, with a $10 million portfolio, you would earn between $200,000 to $500,000 per year.

This is ridiculous. unless you envision a multi decade lifestyle of the rich and famous, delaying retirement to reach numbers like these are only likely to make you one of the richest guys in the grave yard. The reality is that most people who live beneath their means for many years to attain that type of fortune don’t expand their lifestyle all that much in retirement. Sure there will be some increased travel, a couple of costly bucket list items, etc. but the typical lifetime saver doesn’t really expand their lifestyle.

 

[BLADEMDA]

This is ridiculous. unless you envision a multi decade lifestyle of the rich and famous, delaying retirement to reach numbers like these are only likely to make you one of the richest guys in the grave yard. The reality is that most people who live beneath their means for many years to attain that type of fortune don’t expand their lifestyle all that much in retirement. Sure there will be some increased travel, a couple of costly bucket list items, etc. but the typical lifetime saver doesn’t really expand their lifestyle.

The fact remains in the USA wealth is defined as at least $5million if not $10 million; $30 million by age 85 is attainable especially for those physicians working into their mid 70s.

At J.P. Morgan, $9 Million in Assets Isn’t Rich Enough​

Firm’s private bank is doubling the minimum to $10 million in investible assets for clients​

Due to its notably high account minimums, Goldman Sachs Private Wealth Management works with many high-net-worth individuals and families.
The firm typically requires clients to invest at least $10 million to open a private wealth management account.

 

[Test Boy]

The fact remains in the USA wealth is defined as at least $5million if not $10 million; $30 million by age 85 is attainable especially for those physicians working into their mid 70s.

Unless the average life expectancy is like 150 or more, why in the world would anyone wanna accumulate $30 mil by age 85?

 

[POW16]

Some seriously out of touch people in here.

 

[RemyMcswain]

it acutally reminded me of a well known IC guy (Samin Sharma) in nyc ( i trained in nyc). the guy makes 5M a year. graduated from indian medical school

That’s grotesque. No cardiologist should be making 5 million dollars per year.

 

[gulmohr]

That’s grotesque. No cardiologist should be making 5 million dollars per year.

If bankers, lawyers and top hospital admins can make that much, then why not physicians?

 

[RemyMcswain]

If bankers, lawyers and top hospital admins can make that much, then why not physicians?

Im no martyr. But in a country where people are going into debt for medical bills, where people don’t even have access to healthcare they need, where not nearly enough money is spent on kids having access to healthy food options, childcare for single mothers….. yes it’s grotesque that some guy is getting paid that much to put stents in peoples coronary arteries. Somethings wrong with that picture

 

[BLADEMDA]

Im no martyr. But in a country where people are going into debt for medical bills, where people don’t even have access to healthcare they need, where not nearly enough money is spent on kids having access to healthy food options, childcare for single mothers….. yes it’s grotesque that some guy is getting paid that much to put stents in peoples coronary arteries. Somethings wrong with that picture

Somewhere around 4,473,836 households have $4 million or more in wealth, while around 3,592,054 have at least $5 million. Respectively, that is 3.48% and 2.79% of all households in America.

Many people on this board will retire with total assets exceeding $5 million placing them in the top 2.79% of households.

Around 1,456,336 households in America have $10 million or more in net worth. That’s 1.13% of American households. So, in 2023 the estimate is around $11.5 million to be in the top 1% of households.

 

[sevo00]

Somewhere around 4,473,836 households have $4 million or more in wealth, while around 3,592,054 have at least $5 million. Respectively, that is 3.48% and 2.79% of all households in America.

Many people on this board will retire with total assets exceeding $5 million placing them in the top 2.79% of households.

Around 1,456,336 households in America have $10 million or more in net worth. That’s 1.13% of American households. So, in 2023 the estimate is around $11.5 million to be in the top 1% of households.

What do we do with this information.

 

[Fpg1245]

Im no martyr. But in a country where people are going into debt for medical bills, where people don’t even have access to healthcare they need, where not nearly enough money is spent on kids having access to healthy food options, childcare for single mothers….. yes it’s grotesque that some guy is getting paid that much to put stents in peoples coronary arteries. Somethings wrong with that picture

It isn’t grotesque. People get paid substantially more for doing far less and even actively hurting our society.

Also I wouldn’t get too upset considering a cardiologist that making that kind of money is likely a business owner with ancillary income or the president of some group.

Best cards can do is maybe a million.

 

[epidural man]

What do we do with this information.

I’ll tell you what I do.

I cry and say to myself - how come I am a highly skilled physicians that will need to work until the day I die. How did all these other people figure it out and I couldn’t? What is wrong with me?

For my funeral, I’m gonna have to request the day off. Maybe I can just take a half day.

 

[BLADEMDA]

What do we do with this information.

Best Retirement Calculator – Calculate Retirement Savings

Are you saving enough for retirement? This calculator will help you with retirement planning and provide you with an estimate on your future retirement savings.

www.bankrate.com

A new graduate at age 32 starts investing for retirement. He/She is willing to work hard, extra shifts, locums, etc. Total $$ per year invested in the market/equities/bonds etc is $150,000 per year. Assuming a 7% return per year how much will this new grad have at age 65?

$16 million! Many on this board can put away $150K per year and achieve/surpass the top 2% retirement number. Yes, it takes hard work, extra shifts and dedication but it can be done. The power of compounding interest is real and 7% returns can be beaten as well.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

Okay. Let's say you think my $150K savings per year is totally unrealistic. Can you save $100K? Every MD/DO on this board can save $1 million over the course of a 20 year career. Then, you can work 1/2 time and let the magic of the market make you money:

 

[BLADEMDA]

Stop making excuses and start saving as much as you can towards retirement. There is a multiplier effect over time with your money invested.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Im no martyr. But in a country where people are going into debt for medical bills, where people don’t even have access to healthcare they need, where not nearly enough money is spent on kids having access to healthy food options, childcare for single mothers….. yes it’s grotesque that some guy is getting paid that much to put stents in peoples coronary arteries. Somethings wrong with that picture

Physicians barely make up 10% of healthcare costs. This is the type of attitude that leads to policy like the Tennessee fmg law

 

[anaesthetic]

Best Retirement Calculator – Calculate Retirement Savings

Are you saving enough for retirement? This calculator will help you with retirement planning and provide you with an estimate on your future retirement savings.

www.bankrate.com

A new graduate at age 32 starts investing for retirement. He/She is willing to work hard, extra shifts, locums, etc. Total $$ per year invested in the market/equities/bonds etc is $150,000 per year. Assuming a 7% return per year how much will this new grad have at age 65?

$16 million! Many on this board can put away $150K per year and achieve/surpass the top 2% retirement number. Yes, it takes hard work, extra shifts and dedication but it can be done. The power of compounding interest is real and 7% returns can be beaten as well.

This is perfect financial advice for the ideal scenario, but rarely is it actually applicable to a lot of us who like to start living life now and not at age 65.

I’d rather spend a little bit more money, take a little bit less call, work a little longer, and have my family be comfortable for the next 30 years than frugally squirrel away every single penny of every single paycheck in the hopes that we start living at age 65, only to have a stock market crash or a global pandemic or a massive stroke.

 

[RemyMcswain]

Physicians barely make up 10% of healthcare costs. This is the type of attitude that leads to policy like the Tennessee fmg law

1) not familiar with that law. What do you mean?
2) 5 million dollars is too much for a physician to make based on some sort of procedure they are doing. I have zero problem with some hot shot plastics d-bag or some self aggrandizing ortho person who does PRP injections for cash charging whatever they want. Medicare reimbursement is SUPPOSED to be based on the the the skill/challenge of the procedure AND how long the procedure is supposed to take. If you are running some scum bag IC clinic where you’re stenting everything and driving up costs, yea it’s grotesque. I promise you this guys sole focus is $$. Not improving the health of the community he cares for. Also we are not bankers or real estate lawyers or tech entrepreneurs.

 

[RemyMcswain]

It isn’t grotesque. People get paid substantially more for doing far less and even actively hurting our society.

Also I wouldn’t get too upset considering a cardiologist that making that kind of money is likely a business owner with ancillary income or the president of some group.

Best cards can do is maybe a million.

They aren’t physicians. Do you allow your real restate lawyer to render you unconscious, cut organs out of your body, arrest your heart etc. there is a reason we are held to a higher standard.