Anesthesia Job Outlook?

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snplow

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Hi SDN,

As a Canadian medical student, I find it interesting how medicine works in the States, especially with regards to how different anesthesia is compared to Canada and the new health care reforms that Obama has put in place.

1. CNRAs and AAs, which is a fairly contentious issue in the States, is not so relevant in Canada since their scope of practice is different (they do not administer any anesthetic, they only do the prep work). With that, how much has the job market for anesthesiologists been affected? Can an anesthesiologist still work in an urban center (popln > 200K) or will they have to find jobs out in the periphery. Opinions from this board has ranged from there being a drastic shortage to supply being kept up with demand.

2. Will Obama's healthcare reform provide jobs for doctors as more will be needed to fill the gap of the 1/3 of Americans who don't have any access to healthcare?

Thanks for your opinions!

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I think in the future MD ONLY anesthesia will not survive . It is just not efficient. It really isnt. I think our future is mainly supervising and providing medical direction to midlevel providers namely AAs PAs and CRNAs and training residents. CRNAs can put out slanted study after slanted study they are not physicians and never will be no matter how many online courses they take.
 
I am also very interested in the questions you asked. I found a lot of sensible comments on the article by Ronald Dworkin. Author clearly reveals the essence of problem. This may be interesting for you as well.

An Anesthesiologist's Take on Health-Care Reform

By RONALD DWORKIN

Every medical student learns an old adage: You can skimp on some medicine, but you can't skimp on obstetrics or anesthesiology. An elderly surgeon explained it to me this way, "In surgery, people die in days and weeks—a doctor has time to fix a mistake. But in obstetrics and anesthesiology, they die in minutes and seconds."
Twenty years ago, I became an anesthesiologist. Since then, whenever death has loomed in the operating room only to be sidestepped at the last moment, I think back on that wise surgeon. Indeed, the old adage explains why an anesthesiologist's life resembles a soldier's life. A soldier plays cards around the campfire, then goes out on routine patrol and ends up dead. The anesthesiologist jokes around with the surgeons and nurses, then, because of some unforeseen complication, his or her patient dies on the table. Although I have not personally faced such a disaster, I know anesthesiologists who have.
Incredibly, Congress's proposed health-care reform plan risks skimping on anesthesia. According to one of the health-care bills in Congress, H.R. 3200, the public option would reduce reimbursement for anesthesia by over 50%.
More broadly, the bill reflects the incorrect assumptions progressive politicians have made about the mindset of today's doctors and how the health-care system operates.
The first error involves the new taxes on high wage earners. Progressives think marginal tax rates are a disincentive to work only when they reach, say, 70%. By raising taxes to only 60%, they expect a linear increase in tax revenues. But a new culture reigns in the world of upper-middle class professionals that invalidates this rule.
If the tax increase targeted 19th century aristocrats, the increase might be linear, since Old World aristocrats worked for honor—not money. Aristocrats viewed the whole notion of working for profit with contempt.
If the Protestant work ethic described by sociologist Max Weber dominated the earth, the tax bounty would also be huge. That's because the stereotypical Calvinist businessman worked not just for profit, but because he believed it was his duty to work.
People who view their job as a calling are also eager beavers. They work independent of the tax rate because their job is a vital part of their identity.
But today's generation of upper-middle class professionals is different. They enter their respective fields to satisfy a career interest and to be of some use to society. When the novelty of their career wears off, they continue to work but do so primarily to make a good living and retire while still healthy.
Lawyers go through the change first. That's why the biggest law firms ladder their salaries in a particular way. They kick up a young lawyer's salary just when that lawyer starts to make the time-money calculation and ponder a lateral move to another industry. Each time the lawyer wises up, the firm pays him more—until he's too old to retool.
Such time-money calculations occur later in a doctor's career. But they do occur. Most doctors no longer think of their job as a calling. Few of them are Calvinists, and none of them are Old World aristocrats. Many doctors work part-time; others want flexible shifts. This would have been considered heresy even 20 years ago.
My point is that today's upper-middle class professionals are very sensitive to marginal tax rates. To preserve "lifestyle" and "quality time," they will work less. Thus to get money for health-care reform, progressives will have to tax further down the economic ladder, which means taxing the rest of the middle class.
A second thing progressives fail to grasp is the genius of the American health-care system: It unites rich and poor in a common private insurance system.
Here's how it works. When a rich person rolls into the operating room, the nurse asks him: "Would you like a warm blanket? How about a pillow?" The anesthesiologist numbs his skin before putting in the I.V. Every effort is made to make him happy.
People in the operating room pay attention to a rich patient's wishes because they know a rich person can make their lives miserable. He can complain to the hospital president, or call the mayor. But the side effect is that their high quality care becomes habitual, and all patients receive it. When a poor person complains in most environments, no one listens. But in health care, through a common private insurance system, poor people go to the same hospitals and doctors as rich people and thus enjoy the benefit of rich people's power.
The public option severs this link. Dissatisfied with government-run health care, the rich will exit the system. The poor and middle-class will be left to flounder alone inside the public system. Government-run health care will become like the public schools.
The progressives' third mistake is to skimp on anesthesiology. In no medical specialty is the spread between the Medicare rates and private insurance rates greater. Progressives expect to pay anesthesiologists Medicare rates, which are 65% less than private insurance rates, without any change in the system. But there will be changes.
Some anesthesiologists will leave the field. They are already faced with lawsuits at every turn. Something else has happened in America that threatens to tip the balance for anesthesiologists. Americans have grown very fat. This complicates anesthesia tremendously. Putting in IVs, spinals and epidurals is harder. Inserting breathing tubes is much more dangerous.
Quality of care will inevitably decline. That decline will come first in obstetrics. At the hospital where I work, two anesthesiologists work in obstetrics almost around the clock, so that a woman in labor need not wait more than five minutes for her epidural. Other hospitals are less fortunate, and have on staff at most one anesthesiologist in obstetrics. The economic crunch will eventually force these hospitals to cover obstetrics "when anesthesiology is available," meaning in between regular operating room cases.
During an obstetrical emergency, these short-staffed anesthesia departments will scramble to send someone to perform the C-section. Don't forget, a baby has only nine minutes of oxygen when the umbilical cord prolapses, so time is of the essence.
At the very least, pregnant women will be waiting a lot longer for epidurals. But more pain on the labor floor is only the beginning. If hospitals delay the administration of anesthesia because Congress skimped, needless deaths will certainly result.
Dr. Dworkin is an anesthesiologist and the author of "Artificial Happiness" (Basic Books, 2006).
 
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That is a GREAT paper!!!

Hopefully that paper was addressed to his Congressman or Senator.
 
Nice article.


Your .sig links to an ... odd ... web site. What's the deal with the "How To Become A Nurse Anesthesiologist" link?

I was wondering about that too. Seems like a spam-type website. Surprised there weren't any links to buy viagra, benzo's and opiates.
 
I was wondering about that too. Seems like a spam-type website. Surprised there weren't any links to buy viagra, benzo's and opiates.

Why is it considered spam? It seems to me that signature is allowed on this forum. Somebody writes "If wishes was horses, we'd all be eatin 'steak.", somebody inserts link to an account in facebook. I insert the link to my site.
 
Why is it considered spam? It seems to me that signature is allowed on this forum. Somebody writes "If wishes was horses, we'd all be eatin 'steak.", somebody inserts link to an account in facebook. I insert the link to my site.

.sig links are OK. It's not spam ... just odd.
 
Why is it considered spam? It seems to me that signature is allowed on this forum. Somebody writes "If wishes was horses, we'd all be eatin 'steak.", somebody inserts link to an account in facebook. I insert the link to my site.

If it is your website, consider getting a content editor. Perhaps someone who knows that there is no such thing as a "nurse anesthesiologist." They could also clean up some of the mistakes, like your description of the difference between an MD and a DO anesthesiologist. It may apply to someone in primary care, but once through an allopathic anesthesiology residency, there really is no difference between MD's and DO's (spoken by an MD who works with about 6 DO's and ~35 MD's). I can tell you, they are not doing the osteopathic manipulation in the OR and only do the "Kirksville Crunch" for family and friends (in my experience). None that I know of seem to give a darn about a "holistic" approach to anesthesia.

Anyone disagree?
 
Interesting paper. I'm not from the U.S - currently a resident in in my home country. Is the thought that, in the future, Anesthesiologists will only do the most complicated cases and CRNAs will do everything else?
I reckon he hits the nail on the head with the young professionals part. I'm not so sure about the simplicity of the explanation of what will happen to provision of medical services if a public system is implemented. I certainly think if you're a private hospital competing for the business of a patient the more you do to make them happy the better you're going to fare - and therefore service provision to the private market will be better. Not so sure the poor will "flounder" as such, just because that link is severed. To me that assumes that the only reason a quality service is being provided is because the people running the hospital realize they exist in a competitive market place and the doctors and nurses delivering the care have to answer to those people.
No doubt the same level of service would not be provided in a public system, because I agree the above motivation is strong, but to me a lot of people are motivated by things like doing their job well, and wanting what's best for their patients. Though being motivated by these more internal drives, I think, depends a little on the stress placed on system and the people with in it. If you're forced to work huge hours and not paid well because the system is not well funded, it becomes very hard to be generous with yourself. Also, if you're then competing with CRNAs at the end of training, I would imagine it becomes harder again.
Anyway, interested to hear views on all this. I've been interviewing at various programs across the states and it seems some of the U.S residents are really concerned about the way the profession is going over here. To the point that a few have asked what the situation is like in my country and how easy it is to work as an American over there.
 
If it is your website, consider getting a content editor. Perhaps someone who knows that there is no such thing as a "nurse anesthesiologist." They could also clean up some of the mistakes, like your description of the difference between an MD and a DO anesthesiologist. It may apply to someone in primary care, but once through an allopathic anesthesiology residency, there really is no difference between MD's and DO's (spoken by an MD who works with about 6 DO's and ~35 MD's). I can tell you, they are not doing the osteopathic manipulation in the OR and only do the "Kirksville Crunch" for family and friends (in my experience). None that I know of seem to give a darn about a "holistic" approach to anesthesia.

Anyone disagree?

As a recent DO graduate, I agree with your assessment about DO anesthesiologists. From my experience it also applies to other specialties. I don't know of any DO's outside of acadamia that believe in the "holistic" bull shiz and I only know of a few PCP's that actually use manipulaiton in private practice.

Perhaps spam was the wrong word, it just seemed like there was a lot of inaccurate information on the site such as "nurse anesthesiologist and the UMLE board exam."
 
If it is your website, consider getting a content editor. Perhaps someone who knows that there is no such thing as a "nurse anesthesiologist." They could also clean up some of the mistakes, like your description of the difference between an MD and a DO anesthesiologist. It may apply to someone in primary care, but once through an allopathic anesthesiology residency, there really is no difference between MD's and DO's (spoken by an MD who works with about 6 DO's and ~35 MD's). I can tell you, they are not doing the osteopathic manipulation in the OR and only do the "Kirksville Crunch" for family and friends (in my experience). None that I know of seem to give a darn about a "holistic" approach to anesthesia.

Anyone disagree?
Thank you for your comments. I really need to correct some information.
 
The surgery department at Kaweah Delta Medical Center has voted against using nurses to provide anesthesia in operating rooms.The vote Thursday was 15-2, with two surgeons abstaining. The number who voted represents about 30 percent of the 55 general surgeons who operate at the Visalia hospital.
Kaweah Delta administrators say it's hospital policy to honor the request of a surgeon or patient on whether to use an anesthesiologist, who is a medical doctor, or a nurse anesthetist (CRNA).
Provisions are already in place for wary doctors and patients, said Dr. Mark Garfield, vice president and chief medical officer.
"There will be enough anesthesiologists to accommodate these requests," he said.
On Sept. 20, the Medical Staff Organization's Medical Executive Committee decided to reserve the right to limit the number of CRNAs in the main operating room if they find a quality issue in the new program set to take effect Dec. 13.
The Kaweah Delta board of directors awarded Somnia Anesthesia an exclusive agreement to provide anesthesiology services beginning Dec. 13. The agreement provides that Somnia may use CRNA-certified nurses to administer anesthesia.
Somnia replaces Visalia Anesthesia Medical Associates, which provided anesthesia services using MDs in Kaweah Delta operating rooms for the last 16 years.
Dr. Walter Walters, chief of VAMA, said that one anesthesiologist per patient is warranted for patients at Kaweah Delta because of this area's poor population and high number of very sick patients.
Vote taken as recommendation

The surgeons' vote Thursday will not have any immediate effect, said Dr. Mark Wiseman, chief of staff at Kaweah Delta.
The vote was taken as a recommendation from the department of surgery.
"The decision of using CRNAs has a process that is to be followed and goes through the medical executive committee and then is taken to the board," he said.
Board to meet Dec. 12

The soonest the hospital trustees would take up the recommendation from the surgery department would be at their Dec. 12 board meeting, Wiseman said. The trustees meet in the Blue Room in the basement of the hospital. The public is welcome to attend board meetings.
However, the decision to use Somnia Anesthesia is a done deal, said Lindsay Mann, chief executive officer.
"Somnia will certainly be the provider of anesthesia service at Kaweah Delta on Dec. 13," he said. "We are prepared to work with them under any scenario."



http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20111118/NEWS01/111180327
 
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The surgery department at Kaweah Delta Medical Center has voted against using nurses to provide anesthesia in operating rooms.The vote Thursday was 15-2, with two surgeons abstaining. The number who voted represents about 30 percent of the 55 general surgeons who operate at the Visalia hospital.
Kaweah Delta administrators say it's hospital policy to honor the request of a surgeon or patient on whether to use an anesthesiologist, who is a medical doctor, or a nurse anesthetist (CRNA).
Provisions are already in place for wary doctors and patients, said Dr. Mark Garfield, vice president and chief medical officer.
"There will be enough anesthesiologists to accommodate these requests," he said.
On Sept. 20, the Medical Staff Organization's Medical Executive Committee decided to reserve the right to limit the number of CRNAs in the main operating room if they find a quality issue in the new program set to take effect Dec. 13.
The Kaweah Delta board of directors awarded Somnia Anesthesia an exclusive agreement to provide anesthesiology services beginning Dec. 13. The agreement provides that Somnia may use CRNA-certified nurses to administer anesthesia.
Somnia replaces Visalia Anesthesia Medical Associates, which provided anesthesia services using MDs in Kaweah Delta operating rooms for the last 16 years.
Dr. Walter Walters, chief of VAMA, said that one anesthesiologist per patient is warranted for patients at Kaweah Delta because of this area's poor population and high number of very sick patients.
Vote taken as recommendation

The surgeons' vote Thursday will not have any immediate effect, said Dr. Mark Wiseman, chief of staff at Kaweah Delta.
The vote was taken as a recommendation from the department of surgery.
"The decision of using CRNAs has a process that is to be followed and goes through the medical executive committee and then is taken to the board," he said.
Board to meet Dec. 12

The soonest the hospital trustees would take up the recommendation from the surgery department would be at their Dec. 12 board meeting, Wiseman said. The trustees meet in the Blue Room in the basement of the hospital. The public is welcome to attend board meetings.
However, the decision to use Somnia Anesthesia is a done deal, said Lindsay Mann, chief executive officer.
"Somnia will certainly be the provider of anesthesia service at Kaweah Delta on Dec. 13," he said. "We are prepared to work with them under any scenario."



http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20111118/NEWS01/111180327

Yep. My buddy worked for Visalia Anesthesia Medical Associates. He bailled once he saw the writting on the wall regarding Somnia. The group didn't see it coming. Another contract taken over by Somnia. Ughh....
 
there are good jobs out there.... for now. i feel like i just landed one.... doing my own cases. im gonna bank (i think) but its a more rural setting in the midwest and im gonna work -- its a lot of call and I have to do everything from hearts to ob to regional... well. i went to a fab training program (sorry guys im always gonna plug CCF when i can :) so i feel like i will have done enough of this stuff.

I hope those sell-out anesthesiologists that work for somnia rot in hell. I would have loved to move back to south florida but its AMC hell and I have principles, I care about my specialty even beyond my time in it and Im not a ***** -- I refuse to sell my soul to the devil. shame on you guys/girls that do.
 
Why is it considered spam? It seems to me that signature is allowed on this forum. Somebody writes "If wishes was horses, we'd all be eatin 'steak.", somebody inserts link to an account in facebook. I insert the link to my site.
Your link regarding the exams involved in becoming an anesthesiologist seems to be missing some very important exams...like every step of the United States Medical Licensing Exam (Step 1, Step 2, Step 2 CS, Step 3) you know, the exam that actually makes you a doctor and not a nurse...the site is lacking in editing among other things. Good luck with your intentions on your site, I hope they're favorable for our profession!
 
Oh so that's what they do!

;)

I don't mean ****** sell themselves to the devil... Those two lines weren't meant to be interpreted that way.... I meant them as independent statements. I meant ****** sell out to AMCs. And AMCs are the devil.... Actually the way I wrote it is demeaning to street-walkers which I didn't really mean. Just angry that a bunch of anesthesiologists will go work for somnia knowing they are screwing their colleagues :-(
 
I don't mean ****** sell themselves to the devil... Those two lines weren't meant to be interpreted that way.... I meant them as independent statements. I meant ****** sell out to AMCs. And AMCs are the devil.... Actually the way I wrote it is demeaning to street-walkers which I didn't really mean. Just angry that a bunch of anesthesiologists will go work for somnia knowing they are screwing their colleagues :-(

What you call ******, I call exploited individuals who are not able to realize the full value of their services.

The fresh grad who chooses to live in a tight market and takes the only job open in that area, The 50 yr old doc who has been at the same hospital for his whole career whose CEO awards the contract to an AMC, who chooses not to relocate his family and stay, the guy with a blemish in his history who is less employable, the working parent who prefers a flexible, less than full time commitment, etc.

Grow up.
 
Great opinion piece. Equally convincing is one of the replies to above cited article.

At last, someone has been willing to publicly share a real insight into what anesthesiology faces. Considerable courage was needed to speak out in such a manner because very few outside the specialty truly understand the situation. Those inside the specialty keep quiet for fear of appearing merely motivated by greed. Reconciling the reality physician practice and romanticized notions of working happily without recompense is a difficult task and all too easy misunderstood.

Anesthesiology is a critical care specialty in which patient safety depends on maintaining the quality of care givers. It is a mentally and physically grueling specialty that demands perfection each and every time. If you want your patients to be at ease, you also have to do it in a seemingly effortless manner. From outside the profession, it is easy to be fooled by allusions to the anesthesiologist/patient relationship as merely provider and customer. That is simply not what goes through the minds of a quality anesthesiologist in a healthy practice environment. A good anesthesiologist focuses their entire attention on the patient's medical condition and how to most safely and most comfortably convey you through the dangers of medical procedures. Professional satisfaction comes from knowing you gave superlative care AND that you feel fairly compensated. Both needs must be met to have sustainable quality.

In my practice, we isolate the individual payment issues from the point of care. If you come into the OR or go into labor, we take care of you. We don't have to think about payment. The billing office takes care of that separately. We take care of you, the person. It does not matter if you are privately insured, on medicare, medicaid, or indigent. You are treated the same way. Concerns about getting paid would be a dangerous distraction. We learn your medical issues, formulate safe anesthetic strategies, tell you about your choices, agree upon a path, compassionately reassure you, and nimbly conduct you through a minefield of dangers during a highly compressed time span. You really should not be worrying about other things. When we do our job right, you never realize how much effort and skill is being brought to your benefit.

I can focus on taking care of you because I do not PRESENTLY have to worry about whether or not you can pay. I know that on average I can afford to take care of each person. It does not matter if you are rich, famous, well insured, on medicare, on medicaid, or indigent. I treat you the same way. We do quite a bit of care at reduced rate or no pay. That is part of being a physician. I am able to do so because I know I'll be okay at the end of the month.

The present health care reform plan would gravely injure the anesthesia specialty because it threatens to move reimbursements far down to the less than market value medicare rates. The private insurance carriers would be naturally tempted to push their reimbursements down the the unsustainable government levels. I can afford to take care of medicare and indigent patients because other patient with normal reimbursement rates help make up the difference. Push everything down too far and the specialty becomes untenable. In Washington state we already have difficulty attracting anesthesiologists because our state has even lower than usual medicare reimbursement rates. Further, anesthesiology had its medicare rates erroneously set too low years ago. This error was scheduled to be corrected, but the present reform efforts would lock in that computation error permanently.

We cannot keep good people in anesthesiology if health care reform threatens to cut reimbursement down to medicare rates. The truly gifted won't stay in the field nor will they enter it. We already had this demonstrated about ten years ago after a downturn in the anesthesia job market. Medical students diverted into other specialities and the candidate pool shrank. Those who would not normally have been trained as anesthesiologists were accepted into training. When it became time for those to graduate, we were quietly warned that class of residents was not recommendable for hiring. Anesthesiology requires top quality people to maintain patient safety. You might recover and get a second chance if a mistake is done by someone in another profession, but in anesthesiology you really want it done right EVERY time.

My anesthesia group has been fortunate enough to select and retain only the best. Only when in actual practice do you really see that anesthesiologists are not all the same. They vary in skill, knowledge, effectiveness during emergencies, and degree of ethical conduct. As a patient, you want the best. Yes, a lesser, perhaps willing to work for cheaper, practitioner may be survivable 95% of the time, but during intraoperative emergencies, is that who you want safeguarding your loved ones? It is not always a clear disaster that shows the differences between a superior provider and a mediocre one. Things may simply go less than optimally because of poor skill or planning. You were unconscious and never knew how close you came to calamity.

So, yes, Thank you, Dr. Dworkin for speaking up.

Guy Kuo, M.D.
 
What you call ******, I call exploited individuals who are not able to realize the full value of their services.

The fresh grad who chooses to live in a tight market and takes the only job open in that area, The 50 yr old doc who has been at the same hospital for his whole career whose CEO awards the contract to an AMC, who chooses not to relocate his family and stay, the guy with a blemish in his history who is less employable, the working parent who prefers a flexible, less than full time commitment, etc.

Grow up.

Sell out
 

Know how I know you're single with no kids? ;)


As you know, I'm in the military so I don't have 100% control over where I work, but I've got a tiny bit of seniority now (or maybe it's better to call it non-juniority) and can influence the system a little bit. I had the option of leaving my little podunk-ville cowtown Navy hospital and going back to one of the 3 major med centers for the last two years of my scholarship payback (mid-2012 to mid-2014), which would've been far preferable from a purely professional standpoint. I opted to stay right here, because I have kids in middle and high school, because extended family is nearby, because we like our house and neighborhood, because the weather is nice, and because moving just plain sucks.

In short, it's just not all about me and what I want out of my job any more. For many people "do anesthesia, get a paycheck" is an afterthought in the context of the rest of their lives, and that doesn't make them bad people.


God help us all if there's a return to the 90s job market, and in addition to scrambling to find non-exploitive full-time employment, people have to duck rocks being chucked from our own ranks.
 

Actually I have been in a high quality private practice for more than 10 years. But if the circumstances warrant it, I would do whatever is best for me and my family. That includes working for an AMC, that includes trying to be part of a new group that attempts to underbid a long term existing private practice group, etc.

Don't you believe in capitalism? Or are you a union "closed shop" kind of guy?

Addendum:

However, I don't have it in me to exploit another anesthesiologist.
Your reference to ****** is appropriate, Assuming that you are still a resident, You aspire to being a high priced independent call girl who looks down her nose at those that work in brothels or as street walkers.
 
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Know how I know you're single with no kids? ;)


As you know, I'm in the military so I don't have 100% control over where I work, but I've got a tiny bit of seniority now (or maybe it's better to call it non-juniority) and can influence the system a little bit. I had the option of leaving my little podunk-ville cowtown Navy hospital and going back to one of the 3 major med centers for the last two years of my scholarship payback (mid-2012 to mid-2014), which would've been far preferable from a purely professional standpoint. I opted to stay right here, because I have kids in middle and high school, because extended family is nearby, because we like our house and neighborhood, because the weather is nice, and because moving just plain sucks.

In short, it's just not all about me and what I want out of my job any more. For many people "do anesthesia, get a paycheck" is an afterthought in the context of the rest of their lives, and that doesn't make them bad people.


God help us all if there's a return to the 90s job market, and in addition to scrambling to find non-exploitive full-time employment, people have to duck rocks being chucked from our own ranks.

Anybody think this is possible in the near term? I realize this is to be taken in context, but I just don't see this happening (not saying you're suggesting it PGG).

Granted, things can (and probably will) change, such as ACT ratios and also whom may (or may not) qualify for certain procedures (i.e. too many comorbidities under a universal health plan), but the shear number of baby boomers is really going to drive demand IMO. Also, look how sick our population is. To me, that seems like at least a little bit of job security.
 
Anybody think this is possible in the near term? I realize this is to be taken in context, but I just don't see this happening (not saying you're suggesting it PGG).

Granted, things can (and probably will) change, such as ACT ratios and also whom may (or may not) qualify for certain procedures (i.e. too many comorbidities under a universal health plan), but the shear number of baby boomers is really going to drive demand IMO. Also, look how sick our population is. To me, that seems like at least a little bit of job security.

I too think there will be plenty of work for us.

Aging population is one reason. The other side of that demographic coin is that a lot of older practicing anesthesiologists postponed retirement, or continued working full time instead of scaling back to part time because of 2008 stock market losses. In coming years retirement will catch up to those guys.

The unknowable questions are what will be the conditions of that employment, at what income level, and how abused will newcomers be as oldtimers try to keep their numbers up at the expense of fresh grads with minimal bargaining power. For this reason I try to pay attention to what the people who lived through it in the 90s say.
 
I too think there will be plenty of work for us.

Aging population is one reason. The other side of that demographic coin is that a lot of older practicing anesthesiologists postponed retirement, or continued working full time instead of scaling back to part time because of 2008 stock market losses. In coming years retirement will catch up to those guys.

The unknowable questions are what will be the conditions of that employment, at what income level, and how abused will newcomers be as oldtimers try to keep their numbers up at the expense of fresh grads with minimal bargaining power. For this reason I try to pay attention to what the people who lived through it in the 90s say.

Yeah, I guess it's one thing to be IN a job during such a downturn, and quite another to be LOOKING for a job during such circumstances.

As for demand, I recently read that the number of people over age 65 will double from now until 2030. That's a very significant trend. So big, that it would offset any future disqualifications for procedures if we start seeing more rationing of healthcare utilization.
 
Recently gave one of our CRNA's a dinner break while I was on night float. Go in, get handoff, and realize during our handover that he hasn't checked a BP in 38 minutes.
So I ask, "CRNA - is there a reason why you're not checking BP's q 5 mins?"

He gets super mad, rude, and says 'the guy is healthy with no PMH.' He's obviously really embarrassed getting caught not paying attention, but tries to turn it around on me and get defensive. I didn't take any of it and told him to come back from dinner when he's ready to pay better attention...if he can't follow the basic ASA monitoring guidelines, don't come back.

We do have a few CRNA's that are great, hard-workers, deliver great care and work as a team with us...but most are clowns like above. The SRNA's I interact with are a joke, clueless, and there's no way I'd ever let them take care of any friend or family member. The public doesn't know, but we have to continue to educate them.

CJ
 
Recently gave one of our CRNA's a dinner break while I was on night float. Go in, get handoff, and realize during our handover that he hasn't checked a BP in 38 minutes.
So I ask, "CRNA - is there a reason why you're not checking BP's q 5 mins?"

He gets super mad, rude, and says 'the guy is healthy with no PMH.' He's obviously really embarrassed getting caught not paying attention, but tries to turn it around on me and get defensive. I didn't take any of it and told him to come back from dinner when he's ready to pay better attention...if he can't follow the basic ASA monitoring guidelines, don't come back.

We do have a few CRNA's that are great, hard-workers, deliver great care and work as a team with us...but most are clowns like above. The SRNA's I interact with are a joke, clueless, and there's no way I'd ever let them take care of any friend or family member. The public doesn't know, but we have to continue to educate them.

CJ


"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise."
― Joseph Goebbels


"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. "
― Joseph Goebbels
 
“It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.”
― Joseph Goebbels


“If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. ”
― Joseph Goebbels

Not to deviate from the OP, but I find it odd how many people don't realize the extent that we live in a world packed with propaganda from all sides.

Iran has "Press TV" in English to counter our own media bias.

Russia has "RT TV" with English accented "anchors", to counterbalance US/UK geopolitical agendas.

No point here, and I'm not an Alex Joneser, but we truly live in an era of "info wars". If something is presented with enough professionalism and authority, it's readily believable by many/most people. It's a hugely powerful tool.

I find it interesting to sift through it all, as futile as it may be.
 
Recently gave one of our CRNA's a dinner break while I was on night float. Go in, get handoff, and realize during our handover that he hasn't checked a BP in 38 minutes.
So I ask, "CRNA - is there a reason why you're not checking BP's q 5 mins?"

He gets super mad, rude, and says 'the guy is healthy with no PMH.' He's obviously really embarrassed getting caught not paying attention, but tries to turn it around on me and get defensive. I didn't take any of it and told him to come back from dinner when he's ready to pay better attention...if he can't follow the basic ASA monitoring guidelines, don't come back.

We do have a few CRNA's that are great, hard-workers, deliver great care and work as a team with us...but most are clowns like above. The SRNA's I interact with are a joke, clueless, and there's no way I'd ever let them take care of any friend or family member. The public doesn't know, but we have to continue to educate them.

CJ


Had he been charting ghost BP readings? If so nail him for fraudulent charting on a legal document.
 
So, according to big Miller, as of 2003 35.9 millionn people were over the age of 65. By 2030 this number is estimated to be 72 million, or 20% of the US population.

Also according to Miller, 50% of individuals older than 65 yrs will have a surgical procedure of some sort (we might assume this involves some type of anesthesia).

So, with an increase of 40 million people from a few years back to 2030, and 1/2 of those folks requiring some sort of surgery, simple math suggest that without increases in restrictions (which will probably happen or the system would surely buckle), this will produce 20 million MORE surgical procedures over the next 20-30 years or so.

Nobody can predict the future, and again, I think we might not be taking 88 year olds to the OR for open hearts, but nevertheless, these are strong trends in favor of a promising career for those newly, or to-be, entering the profession.

Demand will be there. Compensation is another story, but again, we'll just have to fight those battles proactively.

Does it seem though, that the U.S. is becoming a nation of individuals? Each out to "get while the getting is good"? Most of us believing that the party is gonna come to an end one way or another.... But, this in itself is a negative trend which, I think, will have a major negative impact on the future as a whole.

Anyone else feel conflicted on this? Any other perspectives on this matter? Maybe that's the way it's always been? Somehow I don't think so, at least to the extent we're seeing now.

Just look at these absolute scandals that continue on Wall Street. MF Global?? WTF? Tell me there isn't an attitude, in some circles, of outright criminality with respect to any lack of social or moral obligations to society. $900 million just got "mixed up" in different accounts??? Come on!

I don't know, but things are looking really desperate these days.

But, I do think there will be demand for anesthesiologists.....:thumbup:
 

Life isn't always perfect or easy for most of us, especially if you have a spouse and/or kids. I know plenty of guys who work for an AMC and most are relatively happy. I know guys who were there when the buy out occurred as well as ones who joined afterwards.

Most of us can't just pick any job in any area of the country and plunk down.
 
So, according to big Miller, as of 2003 35.9 millionn people were over the age of 65. By 2030 this number is estimated to be 72 million, or 20% of the US population.

Also according to Miller, 50% of individuals older than 65 yrs will have a surgical procedure of some sort (we might assume this involves some type of anesthesia).

So, with an increase of 40 million people from a few years back to 2030, and 1/2 of those folks requiring some sort of surgery, simple math suggest that without increases in restrictions (which will probably happen or the system would surely buckle), this will produce 20 million MORE surgical procedures over the next 20-30 years or so.

Nobody can predict the future, and again, I think we might not be taking 88 year olds to the OR for open hearts, but nevertheless, these are strong trends in favor of a promising career for those newly, or to-be, entering the profession.

Demand will be there. Compensation is another story, but again, we'll just have to fight those battles proactively.

Does it seem though, that the U.S. is becoming a nation of individuals? Each out to "get while the getting is good"? Most of us believing that the party is gonna come to an end one way or another.... But, this in itself is a negative trend which, I think, will have a major negative impact on the future as a whole.

Anyone else feel conflicted on this? Any other perspectives on this matter? Maybe that's the way it's always been? Somehow I don't think so, at least to the extent we're seeing now.

Just look at these absolute scandals that continue on Wall Street. MF Global?? WTF? Tell me there isn't an attitude, in some circles, of outright criminality with respect to any lack of social or moral obligations to society. $900 million just got "mixed up" in different accounts??? Come on!

I don't know, but things are looking really desperate these days.

But, I do think there will be demand for anesthesiologists.....:thumbup:


Who do you think will foot the bill for these 65+ citizens? (hint: it won't be them)

Do you think society can pay for unlimited medical care for these individuals as we have been doing since Medicare was created? Finally, can you live on what Obamacare/CMS is going to pay you to give anesthesia to these fine citizens?
 
"Low-end consumers of anesthesia services regard the ability to safely produce a deeply sedated or anesthetized patient who is happy at the end of the procedure as a commodity, where the key differentiators—compensation and fit with the procedure area workflow—boil down to cost. "

Mark Lema, MD, PhD
 
Recently gave one of our CRNA's a dinner break while I was on night float. Go in, get handoff, and realize during our handover that he hasn't checked a BP in 38 minutes.
So I ask, "CRNA - is there a reason why you're not checking BP's q 5 mins?"

He gets super mad, rude, and says 'the guy is healthy with no PMH.' He's obviously really embarrassed getting caught not paying attention, but tries to turn it around on me and get defensive. I didn't take any of it and told him to come back from dinner when he's ready to pay better attention...if he can't follow the basic ASA monitoring guidelines, don't come back.

We do have a few CRNA's that are great, hard-workers, deliver great care and work as a team with us...but most are clowns like above. The SRNA's I interact with are a joke, clueless, and there's no way I'd ever let them take care of any friend or family member. The public doesn't know, but we have to continue to educate them.

CJ

I am so thankful I am in a MD/DO model only. If I took over a case like that, I would have had him promptly fired for a lack of following safety protocol after going all apesh#@ on him.
 
"Low-end consumers of anesthesia services regard the ability to safely produce a deeply sedated or anesthetized patient who is happy at the end of the procedure as a commodity, where the key differentiators—compensation and fit with the procedure area workflow—boil down to cost. "

Mark Lema, MD, PhD

maybe coming soon to a theatre near you:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/11/prweb8975468.htm

Dr. Kapur talked about this at this year's Rovenstine lecture at the ASA.
 
We have everything electronic, never chart. Don't even carry a pen with me anymore. It's really nice.

I wasn't trying to be an jerk, just asked. He got the attitude and I didn't put up with it.
He gives me mean looks everyday since. Friday when we passed I told him to turn the BP cuff on...

Again..is this who we want delivering our Anesthesia care?

CJ
 
Who do you think will foot the bill for these 65+ citizens? (hint: it won't be them)

Do you think society can pay for unlimited medical care for these individuals as we have been doing since Medicare was created? Finally, can you live on what Obamacare/CMS is going to pay you to give anesthesia to these fine citizens?

Blade, I agree. It's not sustainable to send 88 year olds to the OR for an AVR. Especially ones with multiple, serious comorbidities. This amounts to rationing, which none of us want to embrace, but can the system REALLY afford to go on as is?

That being said, there will still be large volumes IMHO, regardless of any such "rationing". Just as a result of the sheer numbers of people entering their "surgical prime". Also, maybe we'll just keep kicking the can down the road. There are folks in Greece making money. But, they are an increasing minority.

I also agree that the entire world is commoditizing just about anything and everything. It's the wave of the future. This poses a serious challenge not just to anesthesia, but to MOST businesses/industries.

So, we HAVE to add value in unique ways. I heard Dr. Kapur at the ASA. Indeed we will either have to embrace, proactively, the challenges of the future or the alternatives can be much worse. Her ideas may seem ambitious, but perhaps some academic center could do a pilot study on the "surgical home" (or some like term that she used), with anesthesiologists at the helm. We'll all need to step out of our comfort zones, however, and maybe even training needs to change for us residents. Who knows.

The trend in almost every industry, in our globalized world, is lower wages. Sure, one can experience upward mobility at any given institution, but the rank and file in most industries seem to be trending down aside from perhaps dudes with very unique skillsets.
 
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We have everything electronic, never chart. Don't even carry a pen with me anymore. It's really nice.

I wasn't trying to be an jerk, just asked. He got the attitude and I didn't put up with it.
He gives me mean looks everyday since. Friday when we passed I told him to turn the BP cuff on...

Again..is this who we want delivering our Anesthesia care?

CJ

Do you have data that can prove his disuse of the NIBP creates a statistically significant difference in his care, compared to the care of providers who do measure BP?

What's that? A prospective randomized trial comparing outcomes between "BP measured" and "BP not measured" hasn't been done? How dare you leap to conclusions then! Surely this means there's no difference in outcomes between the two groups of providers. The cost savings of not installing NIBP monitors can be passed on to patients in underserved rural hospitals where selfish BP-measurers won't work.

Obviously you're just greedy and elitist. Go back to the lounge and check your stocks while the hardworking providers who don't need BP measurements get the day's work done.

:)


I went in to relieve a person like this when I was a resident, and asked about the ST depression on the monitor. First it was "oh, that's baseline" until I went to get the preop 12-lead from the chart, which of course didn't have ST depression. Then it was "just lead placement" and the clown started moving the leads in an attempt to get a waveform more pleasing to the eye.


Some people never, ever admit error. Instant denial, more denial, and deflection.


But sarcasm and contempt aside, neither of these stories are really an indictment of CRNAs. These two people were careless narcissists, and their kind can be found in our ranks too. What makes CRNAs unfit for independent practice is their certification's authority's extremely poor quality control and their lack of broad and deep medical knowledge.

These two idiots should be fired, not because they made errors, but because they pretended they DIDN'T make errors even after said errors were pointed out. That's a dangerous character flaw that's unfixable. I think that on the physician side, we're better at weeding these people out, if only because longer and more rigorous training provides more opportunities to spot them ...
 
Do you have data that can prove his disuse of the NIBP creates a statistically significant difference in his care, compared to the care of providers who do measure BP?

What's that? A prospective randomized trial comparing outcomes between "BP measured" and "BP not measured" hasn't been done? How dare you leap to conclusions then! Surely this means there's no difference in outcomes between the two groups of providers. The cost savings of not installing NIBP monitors can be passed on to patients in underserved rural hospitals where selfish BP-measurers won't work.

Obviously you're just greedy and elitist. Go back to the lounge and check your stocks while the hardworking providers who don't need BP measurements get the day's work done.

:)


I went in to relieve a person like this when I was a resident, and asked about the ST depression on the monitor. First it was "oh, that's baseline" until I went to get the preop 12-lead from the chart, which of course didn't have ST depression. Then it was "just lead placement" and the clown started moving the leads in an attempt to get a waveform more pleasing to the eye.


Some people never, ever admit error. Instant denial, more denial, and deflection.


But sarcasm and contempt aside, neither of these stories are really an indictment of CRNAs. These two people were careless narcissists, and their kind can be found in our ranks too. What makes CRNAs unfit for independent practice is their certification's authority's extremely poor quality control and their lack of broad and deep medical knowledge.

These two idiots should be fired, not because they made errors, but because they pretended they DIDN'T make errors even after said errors were pointed out. That's a dangerous character flaw that's unfixable. I think that on the physician side, we're better at weeding these people out, if only because longer and more rigorous training provides more opportunities to spot them ...

At least the electronic record keeps them more honest. I used to see a lot of fantasy vitals charted back in the day. There's no place for deceit and cover ups in medicine. Oh, wait...
 
At least the electronic record keeps them more honest. I used to see a lot of fantasy vitals charted back in the day. There's no place for deceit and cover ups in medicine. Oh, wait...

Sadly, I relieved an EMR case with no BP's for >30 minutes. You could even argue that electronic charting makes people more complacent with regards to charting vitals.
 
Sadly, I relieved an EMR case with no BP's for >30 minutes. You could even argue that electronic charting makes people more complacent with regards to charting vitals.
When I was a CA-3, I gave a CA-1 a lunch break on a lap case with both arms tucked...CA-1 leaves the room and I very quickly realize I do not hear a pulse ox tone....I check the monitor....no pulse ox...case had been going over an hour and sometime about 20min into the case he had lost the pulse ox and hadn't noticed (so he stated on return...after all it's electronic charting)....arms tucked so I pull out another cord and just exchanged the cord for one I attached to an ear probe...100% so all was well...but c'mon people...I still remind him of that day when I can....I don't think he'll ever do it again
 
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