Anyone else getting butthurt at Physical Therapists saying they are "doctors"

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

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Comparing the academic achievements of OMFS and DO applicants is not easily done.
Most of them have not taken the MCAT which would standardize that part of the evaluation. Of the ones who have taken the MCAT, their scores have been at or below acceptable for DO schools (and well below our median) in my experience. Their undergrad grades are all over the map. Their dental school evaluations are hard to interpret as they all sound the same.

I do not doubt that they are some of the better dental students.

With the caveat that GPA is a less than optimal proxy for MCAT (else why would you need both), you'll have to forgive me for leaning on the considerable n represented by all DO and all DMD/DDS students and that statistically significant GPA gap (.1 before factoring in DO grade forgiveness - likely much more when you remove forgiveness and non-omfsers) taking the same curriculum over your anecdote.

If you were able to do it empirically and somehow isolate all the variables (e.g. the dental students are 100% focused on the MCAT for months just like the pre-meds), I have a sneaking suspicion that the data would harmonize with the remainder of the groups' academic profiles: the DDSers fall between MD and DO on average, with the OMFS subgroup near the top of the DDS crowd.

On the other hand, maybe dental school has an effect like the monstars in space jam. Once you receive that acceptance letter, your test-taking skills atrophy overnight, even compared to students who have had slightly worse test scores over the four years prior in biology, o chem, etc.

 

[gyngyn]

If you were able to do it empirically and somehow isolate all the variables (e.g. the dental students are 100% focused on the MCAT for months just like the pre-meds), I have a sneaking suspicion that the data would harmonize with the remainder of the groups' academic profiles: the DDSers fall between MD and DO on average, with the OMFS subgroup near the top of the DDS crowd.

That's why we'll never know.
I can only tell you what I have seen in a couple of decades of reviewing OMFS candidates.

 

[Goro]

With the caveat that GPA is a less than optimal proxy for MCAT (else why would you need both), you'll have to forgive me for leaning on the considerable n represented by all DO and all DMD/DDS students and that statistically significant GPA gap (.1 before factoring in DO grade forgiveness - likely much more when you remove forgiveness and non-omfsers) taking the same curriculum over your anecdote.

If you were able to do it empirically and somehow isolate all the variables (e.g. the dental students are 100% focused on the MCAT for months just like the pre-meds), I have a sneaking suspicion that the data would harmonize with the remainder of the groups' academic profiles: the DDSers fall between MD and DO on average, with the OMFS subgroup near the top of the DDS crowd.

On the other hand, maybe dental school has an effect like the monstars in space jam. Once you receive that acceptance letter, your test-taking skills atrophy overnight, even compared to students who have had slightly worse test scores over the four years prior in biology, o chem, etc.

What does this have to do with the OP?

 

[gyngyn]

What does this have to do with the OP?

Nothing.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

What does this have to do with the OP?

Nothing. Well, about as much as the rest of the SDN medical degree back-rubbing and poo-flinging has to do with actually taking care of patients* (as you noted on page 5). I'm just taking it one tangent further.

*unless it has to do with job title clarity in a patient care setting

 

[altblue]

Nothing. Well, about as much as the rest of the SDN medical degree back-rubbing and poo-flinging has to do with actually taking care of patients* (as you noted on page 5). I'm just taking it one tangent further.

*unless it has to do with job title clarity in a patient care setting

They're doing it - I can do it too!

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

I'd rather be a baron.

Sealand - Become a Lord, Lady, Baron or Baroness

Is it bad that I actually want to spend some money on this?

 

[DrTee_]

I'll gladly address anyone as "Doctor" as long as they hold a doctorate. Since PAs don't have one, I will not address them with that title. DNPs I will.

same here. As someone else previously stated, it's about the degree held, not the profession.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

same here. As someone else previously stated, it's about the degree held, not the profession.

And when your patient gets confused which doctor he should listen to, have fun explaining that the other “doctor” isn’t a physician but is still a “doctor.”

 

[DrTee_]

And when your patient gets confused which doctor he should listen to, have fun explaining that the other “doctor” isn’t a physician but is still a “doctor.”

It's the PT's job to make their scope of practice clear, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they carry a doctorate.

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

It's the PT's job to make their scope of practice clear, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they carry a doctorate.

I 100% understand where you are coming from. Yet again, I will always refer to someone as Dr. ____. But when they interact with patients, it becomes a very weird matter. For example, I worked three years in a physical therapy office, and we were also in charge of seeing hospital patients. The PTA (Physical Therapist Assistant) would walk in and say "Hey, my name is ____, and I am your Physical Therapist Assistant). The patient would CONSTANTLY refer to them as the physical therapist, nurse, doctor, etc. The PTA's and PT's never wore a white coat, but the patient's had a hard time understanding the difference. That is why I think introducing yourself as "Dr. ____ your nurse, physical therapist, occupational therapist, etc." is extremely confusing (so I think).

 

[ekmf27050]

Crap... You got me. I'll just avoid them altogether in the hospital *walks briskly past the rehab facility*

Now I'm just picturing you in a hospital jogging away from the poor DNP trying to discuss a patient with you... #cardio

 

[deleted480308]

Doctor actually comes from a Latin word, Docere that means teacher. Makes sense because as an MD you educate your patients on procedures so they can give informed consent. If you work in academic hospital, lots of teaching there.

I'll gladly address anyone as "Doctor" as long as they hold a doctorate. Since PAs don't have one, I will not address them with that title. DNPs I will.

I won’t in any clinical setting once I’m out of residency

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's the PT's job to make their scope of practice clear, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they carry a doctorate.

And not referring to them as doctor in a hospital doesn’t either. This isn’t about the ego of the provider. It’s about the patient.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

“But the other doctor said I can walk on this,” says your postop patient.
It’s bad enough when it’s an actual doctor, like when patients come to my clinic expecting surgery because the ER doctor told them they need it. Then I explain they don’t, and they’re confused.

But when the other “doctor” is an NP, or some other person who’s not actually even a real doctor in the clinical setting, have fun explaining that to the patient.

I don’t understand why this is so difficult. An NP or PT calling themselves doctor sounds exactly as silly as a lawyer doing so. Both have doctorate degrees, neither are doctors.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don’t understand why this is so difficult. An NP or PT calling themselves doctor sounds exactly as silly as a lawyer doing so. Both have doctorate degrees, neither are doctors.

I’m starting to think the people who aren’t getting it either haven’t really worked directly with patients and these “doctors,” or they are getting one of those doctorates.

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

“But the other doctor said I can walk on this,” says your postop patient.
It’s bad enough when it’s an actual doctor, like when patients come to my clinic expecting surgery because the ER doctor told them they need it. Then I explain they don’t, and they’re confused.

But when the other “doctor” is an NP, or some other person who’s not actually even a real doctor in the clinical setting, have fun explaining that to the patient.

I don’t understand why this is so difficult. An NP or PT calling themselves doctor sounds exactly as silly as a lawyer doing so. Both have doctorate degrees, neither are doctors.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Literally had this happen in the ED the other night. Someone told our physician Dr so-and-so (who is an NP) said I needed antibiotics. Our physician went on to say "well he isn't a doctor so..." and I almost died laughing. Later he told me he probably shouldn't have said that but he is for sure right. If NP wants to be taken more serious get rid of online courses and make it actually challenging to both get into and finish.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Literally had this happen in the ED the other night. Someone told our physician Dr so-and-so (who is an NP) said I needed antibiotics. Our physician went on to say "well he isn't a doctor so..." and I almost died laughing. Later he told me he probably shouldn't have said that but he is for sure right. If NP wants to be taken more serious get rid of online courses and make it actually challenging to both get into and finish.

If they want to be called doctor in a hospital, they can go to med school. What a concept.

 

[DrTee_]

I 100% understand where you are coming from. Yet again, I will always refer to someone as Dr. ____. But when they interact with patients, it becomes a very weird matter. For example, I worked three years in a physical therapy office, and we were also in charge of seeing hospital patients. The PTA (Physical Therapist Assistant) would walk in and say "Hey, my name is ____, and I am your Physical Therapist Assistant). The patient would CONSTANTLY refer to them as the physical therapist, nurse, doctor, etc. The PTA's and PT's never wore a white coat, but the patient's had a hard time understanding the difference. That is why I think introducing yourself as "Dr. ____ your nurse, physical therapist, occupational therapist, etc." is extremely confusing (so I think).

I wholeheartedly agree. I always hear patient's referring to PTAs as Dr.___ and some correct them, some don't. I just believe that in order to avoid those issues and better educate patients we have to explain the type of care they're receiving and which providers are equipped to administer said care (and call themselves doctors). Even then, like you said, we can tell them "hey I'm not a physician, I'm your PTA/PT/Chiropractor/etc., but ultimately they'll still choose to call them Dr. __ because it's just easier. I personally avoid it by referring to healthcare providers as simply "providers". Take the ego out of it completely, I personally didn't choose the medical field for the bragging rights, I chose it because I enjoy caring for patients.

 

[gyngyn]

I personally avoid it by referring to healthcare providers as simply "providers".

That always reminds me of that old Star Trek episode. Creepy...

 

[Goro]

And not referring to them as doctor in a hospital doesn’t either. This isn’t about the ego of the provider. It’s about the patient.

With some SDNers, it's definitely 100% about their egos, and NOT about the patients.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

With some SDNers, it's definitely 100% about their egos, and NOT about the patients.

I don't doubt it. I say the same thing to MDs who don't want to listen to nurses because "they're the boss." Medicine is a team sport.

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

I don't doubt it. I say the same thing to MDs who don't want to listen to nurses because "they're the boss." Medicine is a team sport.

SO true! I watched a GROWN man throw a temper tantrum in the hospital. He started stomping and screaming because one of the nurses did not "respect him." Oh, it didn't help that the hospital was pushing for everything to go electronic, and he stated "If we go electronic I will quit." He quit...

 

[frosted2]

SO true! I watched a GROWN man throw a temper tantrum in the hospital. He started stomping and screaming because one of the nurses did not "respect him." Oh, it didn't help that the hospital was pushing for everything to go electronic, and he stated "If we go electronic I will quit." He quit...

 

[Turkishking]

Just wait until you hear CNA or nursing students tell people they are in medical school lol

Lol it happened already. I had to explain the difference between medical school and nursing.. without being rude.

 

[DPT...PT]

A little late to the party on this forum, but I thought I would throw in my two cents.

I hold a DPT, but I'm happy to call myself a physical therapist because, well, that's what I am. I work in a hospital setting and stay mostly in the outpatient world; however I work inpatient and acute care a smattering throughout the week as well. When I meet a patient for the first time I introduce myself with my first name, then I mention I'm a physical therapist.

I fully understand that it can be confusing for a patient to keep track of titles, especially in a new and busy setting when the patient is worried about the status of their health. I'm more than happy to put my ego by the wayside and focus on the patient. I also understand why MD's would be upset by other health care providers introducing themselves as Doctor so and so. It's been a long held belief that if you introduce yourself as doctor you are the doctor... shocking?! I'm not going to rock the boat on semantics. I didn't go to medical school for 4 years, nor did I do a 3-4 year residency. I went to a highly ranked and well regarded PT school, for 3 years. I'm a physical therapist and happy to be one.

Perhaps why I really don't care if I get to introduce myself as doctor or not is because the patient couldn't care less what I have behind my name, as long as they get good outcomes. This is true for any profession; MD, PT, NP, plumber.. if they patient is happy with their results then they are happy with you as a provider. If I failed a patient I doubt they would ever say, "well at least he had a doctorate." It's a degree, not a consolation prize.

I've also have the luxury of fostering very good working relationships with the general/family MD's, ortho surgeons, podiatrists, and nursing staff that I see and communicate with on a regular basis. I firmly believe that communication between providers is pivotal to the patient's outcome. I have no hesitation to ask the ortho surgeons a question and to learn new information, and likewise I have had ortho surgeons ask me my impression and opinions on patients. I very much appreciate having an open line of communication where both professions are respected.

That last line is what prompted me to write this. I work in a hospital where I am respected as a physical therapist, and not forced to feel inferior about my degree. The other health care providers value my opinion and input, as a physical therapist. I do not try to claim anything I am not; I know the musculoskeletal and nervous system pretty darn well... but I don't know what dose of TPA to give for a posterior cerebral artery CVA, I don't know how to remove an appendix (safely, at least), and I don't know how to replace a knee. That's what I'm getting at, value the physical therapist that you work with for their expertise in the realm that they work in; we value you guys for your knowledge. We have 3 years of focusing primarily on the musculoskeletal and nervous system, use us for it. Constructive conversations can go a long way in learning more about each others professions and strengths in order to help create strong working relationships, rather than a hierarchy of professions at separate lunch tables.

Phew, sorry for such the long-winded post... that one really got away from me.

 

[RNthenDoc]

I’ve actually had DO’s get referred to as MD’s before, and they never corrected the person speaking. Never really cared, either, just wanting to draw that to some people’s attention. 😉

“If you want to be an MD go to MD school,” etc

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I’ve actually had DO’s get referred to as MD’s before, and they never corrected the person speaking. Never really cared, either, just wanting to draw that to some people’s attention. 😉

“If you want to be an MD go to MD school,” etc

Lol.... that’s not even kind of same...

 

[Deecee2DO]

lol mistaking a DO for an MD is like mistaking a medical doctor for a medical doctor...wait what?

 

[Robin-jay]

I’ve actually had DO’s get referred to as MD’s before, and they never corrected the person speaking. Never really cared, either, just wanting to draw that to some people’s attention. 😉

“If you want to be an MD go to MD school,” etc

Seen it with DPM's too.

DPM/DO/MD....I think medical doctor is a good term for all of them. But I do think at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

I would argue many dentistry specialties are basically "medical doctors" too. I know a DDS whose office is in a clinic around a hospital, and never does basic "dentistry", as she basically does oral surgeries.

Not sure where I even draw the line for "medical doctor". I'm thinking around between DDS and PharmD.

1. MD
2. DO
3. DPM
4. DDS/DMD
-------------------------------------------------------
5. PharmD

 

[chester24]

My wife went to PT for an ITB injury, and every DPT in there called themselves Dr. Whatever. But they were in their office, not a hospital.

If you're upset with DPTs calling themselves doctor, you should be equally perturbed by optometrists, dentists, chiros, podiatrists, pharm.d.'s, clinical psychologists, etc. I know several people who were accepted to both traditional medical school and DPT programs but chose the DPT Program. They didn't want to have 10 minute office visits and pass out drugs. Why are people assuming that surgeons give better advice re😳rtho or neuro than a DPT. A surgeon only has one tool--so everything is a nail. Any decent surgeon--outside of trauma--is using regenerative medicine to keep people out of the sickcare system. The people with derogatory comments re😀PTs are likely the ones contributing to MDs being the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA.

 

[chester24]

Seen it with DPM's too.

DPM/DO/MD....I think medical doctor is a good term for all of them. But I do think at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

I would argue many dentistry specialties are basically "medical doctors" too. I know a DDS whose office is in a clinic around a hospital, and never does basic "dentistry", as she basically does oral surgeries.

Not sure where I even draw the line for "medical doctor". I'm thinking around between DDS and PharmD.

1. MD
2. DO
3. DPM
4. DDS/DMD
-------------------------------------------------------
5. PharmD

Why would a DPM or a dentist be considered any more of an M.D. than a DPT? Because they can do surgery? Is that really your litmus test for who is legitimate?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Why would a DPM or a dentist be considered any more of an M.D. than a DPT? Because they can do surgery? Is that really your litmus test for who is legitimate?

A DPM does a surgical residency…they are the closest youll get to an MD/DO

 

[Deecee2DO]

Why would a DPM or a dentist be considered any more of an M.D. than a DPT? Because they can do surgery? Is that really your litmus test for who is legitimate?

Because they do residency. Also, their medical knowledge is deeper than a PT

 

[gyngyn]

Closing.
Axe grinding.