Applying w/o shadowing

[akb5633]

I've read previous posts saying "it depends" in regards to how disadvantageous this is when applying, so I wanted to give my specific scenario.

I am currently contacting Internal/Family Medicine physicians to try to get some shadowing experience, but did not list this on my primary app as it has not actually been done yet. Here are my stats/ECs:

cGPA/sGPA: 3.96/3.96
MCAT: 520

Clinical Experience:
CNA in skilled-care facility (700 hrs)
Neurophysiology technologist - working directly with anesthesiologists/surgeons (1000 hrs to date, continuing 40 hrs/wk during gap year)
Volunteer in NICU (50 hrs to date, continuing during gap year)

Research: 700 hrs basic science research, hoping to submit our manuscript soon

Leadership/TAing: 450 hrs

Other ECs: Club Collegiate Athlete, Relay for Life, various non-clinically related volunteering positions

Obviously, the best bet is to find shadowing ASAP and update all of the schools I am applying to. However, realistically, based on my work schedule/paperwork/other things, I'm expecting it to take weeks to months until I can actually shadow.

In secondaries, if applicable, should I mention my intent to shadow? How important is shadowing for me given my stats and ECs?

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[shaokahn]

A lot of secondary applications have a section that lets you list "anticipated activities in the coming year." I only recently got 16 hours of shadowing experience at an Orthopaedic surgery center (in March, so just before AMCAS opened). I have been hearing that having at least 40 hours is good... so just like you, I've been trying to find more doctors to shadow. I recently shadowed a dermatologist (4 hours) in June, and I was able to include this in secondary applications, who had asked me "is there anything that you've recently done that is not on your AMCAS?"

In all my secondaries, I have been emphasizing my intent to continue my volunteer, leadership, and shadowing experiences throughout this coming year, telling them that that way, if I do not make it into medical school, I will at least have added more experiences to my resume so that I can improve for next year and apply again. Definitely emphasize your intent to pursue all types of activities (not just shadowing) in this coming year. Your other stats are great, so just find a way to really prove to them that you are passionate about wanting to be a doctor. In addition, emphasize extra-curriculars that let admissions committees know that you are an interesting person! There are so many people with 520 MCAT scores and millions of research / volunteer hours. What makes you truly different? What makes you an interesting person outside of work and school?

Emphasize the experiences you DO have, and how they made you want to be in medicine! That's all shadowing is about anyway: proving to yourself and to the admissions committees that you really want to be in this field.

I am a non-traditional applicant, so I definitely understand how hard it is trying to find doctors to shadow when you are no longer enrolled in a university program that actually offers shadowing courses / programs. Use what connections you have, or don't even be afraid to ask one of your docs during an appointment (that's how I scored the dermatology one).

 

[mistafab]

You can swing the neurophys work as direct shadowing experience if asked. Your application in my eyes is stellar. No need to worry about shadowing since you've already seen two disciplines up close. I only had one person bring up my job/clinical experience along the interview trail saying "so you never shadowed primary care???" Yeah bro - not interested.

Anyway - In my eyes it won't hurt you, though programs that emphasize primary care may or may not give you a cold look. Your application seems to fall into the "very competitive" range.

 

[cactusman]

There are so many people with 520 MCAT scores and millions of research / volunteer hours.

That's not really accurate... sure there are a lot of 520/strong research apps at Harvard. But a 520 is in the top 2%. That's less than a couple thousand every app cycle. We can motivate people to make strong apps without downplaying their hard work and talent or making them more anxious than they need to be.

 

[kopftonmd]

You can swing the neurophys work as direct shadowing experience if asked. Your application in my eyes is stellar. No need to worry about shadowing since you've already seen two disciplines up close. I only had one person bring up my job/clinical experience along the interview trail saying "so you never shadowed primary care???" Yeah bro - not interested.

For lots of people, this is a personal thing - some just aren't interested in primary care (totally cool), some really are and some don't know. I personally fell into the last camp, so shadowing in family med was actually my best shadowing experience by far. So OP I think you should really pursue this if it interests you at all; otherwise, I agree with mistafab that you have lots of clinical experience already.

 

[mistafab]

Hey yo - glad you posted.

My experience with primary care shadowing actually came in medical school. I had 5 sessions with a community primary care doc during my M1 year that let me do some stuff in the office and yada yada yada.

Gotta say, primary care is really important and excellent. However, I am glad that I am not forced into it like some schools try to do with their students. The job itself is not my cup of tea and I'm glad that some people like it while I do not.

For lots of people, this is a personal thing - some just aren't interested in primary care (totally cool), some really are and some don't know. I personally fell into the last camp, so shadowing in family med was actually my best shadowing experience by far. So OP I think you should really pursue this if it interests you at all; otherwise, I agree with mistafab that you have lots of clinical experience already.

 

[akb5633]

A lot of secondary applications have a section that lets you list "anticipated activities in the coming year." I only recently got 16 hours of shadowing experience at an Orthopaedic surgery center (in March, so just before AMCAS opened). I have been hearing that having at least 40 hours is good... so just like you, I've been trying to find more doctors to shadow. I recently shadowed a dermatologist (4 hours) in June, and I was able to include this in secondary applications, who had asked me "is there anything that you've recently done that is not on your AMCAS?"

In all my secondaries, I have been emphasizing my intent to continue my volunteer, leadership, and shadowing experiences throughout this coming year, telling them that that way, if I do not make it into medical school, I will at least have added more experiences to my resume so that I can improve for next year and apply again. Definitely emphasize your intent to pursue all types of activities (not just shadowing) in this coming year. Your other stats are great, so just find a way to really prove to them that you are passionate about wanting to be a doctor. In addition, emphasize extra-curriculars that let admissions committees know that you are an interesting person! There are so many people with 520 MCAT scores and millions of research / volunteer hours. What makes you truly different? What makes you an interesting person outside of work and school?

Emphasize the experiences you DO have, and how they made you want to be in medicine! That's all shadowing is about anyway: proving to yourself and to the admissions committees that you really want to be in this field.

I am a non-traditional applicant, so I definitely understand how hard it is trying to find doctors to shadow when you are no longer enrolled in a university program that actually offers shadowing courses / programs. Use what connections you have, or don't even be afraid to ask one of your docs during an appointment (that's how I scored the dermatology one).

Thanks for your input - it's good to hear from someone who is in a similar situation!

You can swing the neurophys work as direct shadowing experience if asked. Your application in my eyes is stellar. No need to worry about shadowing since you've already seen two disciplines up close. I only had one person bring up my job/clinical experience along the interview trail saying "so you never shadowed primary care???" Yeah bro - not interested.

Anyway - In my eyes it won't hurt you, though programs that emphasize primary care may or may not give you a cold look. Your application seems to fall into the "very competitive" range.

That's not really accurate... sure there are a lot of 520/strong research apps at Harvard. But a 520 is in the top 2%. That's less than a couple thousand every app cycle. We can motivate people to make strong apps without downplaying their hard work and talent or making them more anxious than they need to be.

Thank you both for a bit of peace of mind! Still going to pursue shadowing, but now I don't feel like I'm on such a tight time schedule.

For lots of people, this is a personal thing - some just aren't interested in primary care (totally cool), some really are and some don't know. I personally fell into the last camp, so shadowing in family med was actually my best shadowing experience by far. So OP I think you should really pursue this if it interests you at all; otherwise, I agree with mistafab that you have lots of clinical experience already.

Yes, I definitely fall in the "IDK" category right now - which is why I am hoping to shadow not just for applications, but also myself. Thank you!

 

[eyejust]

That's not really accurate... sure there are a lot of 520/strong research apps at Harvard. But a 520 is in the top 2%. That's less than a couple thousand every app cycle. We can motivate people to make strong apps without downplaying their hard work and talent or making them more anxious than they need to be.

It's not even a few thousand, it's literally around a thousand or less. Assuming there are around 50,000 applicants each year, 2% of that is 1000.

 

[cactusman]

It's not even a few thousand, it's literally around a thousand or less. Assuming there are around 50,000 applicants each year, 2% of that is 1000.

Yes but it's 2% of MCAT test takers, not necessarily applicants. I'm guessing most people with a 520 apply with that score and people with low scores often don't, so it's probably more than 2% of the actual applicant pool.

 

[eyejust]

Yes but it's 2% of MCAT test takers, not necessarily applicants. I'm guessing most people with a 520 apply with that score and people with low scores often don't, so it's probably more than 2% of the actual applicant pool.

Touche. Either way, I don't think OP should feel as though he hasn't accomplished something amazing with that score.

 

[raiderette]

You are a CNA, you have definitely "smelled the patient", but were you there when the doctor did rounds, talked to the patient? Did you talk to physicians and follow their routine? In secondaries and interviews, stress your patient interactions and, if asked about your lack of shadowing, describe how your job helped you understand the role of the physician.

 

[DBC03]

Honestly, it looks like you have plenty of experience around physicians - but it's the primary care aspect you are lacking? I'm not sure, but according to the MSAR, every school accepts some students who have not officially "Shadowed." I imagine they were applicants similar to yourself who were strong applicants and had a lot of clinical experience without having to shadow. But you could certainly update on the secondaries if you are planning to (or already have) shadowed a primary care doctor.

 

[akb5633]

The AAMC table linked below will give some insight
out of 27,772 total applicants (with new MCAT score as opposed to old) 1,155 with greater than 517 applied, of which 915 were accepted. So 4.15% of total applicant pool had 518 or higher with 3.29% of total acceptees being 518 or higher. Or another way to view it, 80% of those with 518 or higher were accepted. Still 1 out of 5 weren't (probably those without shadowing)
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

Duly noted...going to try to get my shadowing done sooner rather than later. Thanks!

Honestly, it looks like you have plenty of experience around physicians - but it's the primary care aspect you are lacking? I'm not sure, but according to the MSAR, every school accepts some students who have not officially "Shadowed." I imagine they were applicants similar to yourself who were strong applicants and had a lot of clinical experience without having to shadow. But you could certainly update on the secondaries if you are planning to (or already have) shadowed a primary care doctor.

This is exactly what I'm most concerned about at the moment.

 

[DBC03]

Duly noted...going to try to get my shadowing done sooner rather than later. Thanks!



This is exactly what I'm most concerned about at the moment.

Good luck! I couldn't nail down any typical primary care docs (they always said I could shadow, but failed to return phone calls to schedule), but I did shadow a gynecologic oncologist for three months, which should be sufficient. Any doctor who provides longitudinal care should work (I saw some patients three or more times in that period).


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