Are DOs limited in their residency opportunities?

[Sweetfishy87]

Hello:

My aim is to become a specialized surgeon (e.g., an orthopedic trauma surgeon). Are DOs limited in their residency opportunities? Can a DO become an orthopedic trauma surgeon?


Thank you!

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[Geo16]

Yes
I saw Orthopedic surg. at mean COMLEX score of 562. It is highly competitive I assume..

 

[AlteredScale]

Hello:

My aim is to become a specialized surgeon (e.g., an orthopedic trauma surgeon). Are DOs limited in their residency opportunities? Can a DO become an orthopedic trauma surgeon?


Thank you!

Yes they are. Is it impossible to do surgery as a DO? No. Will going MD make it easier and keep all doors own if you decide to pursue a surgical specialty? Yes.

Try MD first if you are wanting to do this. Being a lighting bone setter isn't going to
Impress the program directors of ACGME ortho programs.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

Hello:

My aim is to become a specialized surgeon (e.g., an orthopedic trauma surgeon). Are DOs limited in their residency opportunities? Can a DO become an orthopedic trauma surgeon?


Thank you!

Yes DOs can become specialized surgeons. Yes they are more limited in residency options and competitive specialties are harder to get.

Side note, becoming an orthopedic surgeon is very hard for both MDs and DOs. Do not go into medical school being ortho or bust, that is a good way to end up miserable when you find out you are just an average medical student and need to choose a different field that is less competitive.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

To add to everyone else has said the hard part is getting into Ortho residency. It's definitely possible each year a handful of students from most DO schools match into ortho. Getting a fellowship in trauma is much easier as not a lot of people want the hours, lifestyle, etc. Also by the time you graduate all programs will be ACGME and more fellowships will be open. I speak from having a DO family member who is in an ortho trauma fellowship now (ACGME).

Yeah I think people like the idea of "trauma" because it sounds sexy, when the reality is that the hours and lifestyle, for lack of a better word, are really sucky. You have to really love it, cool cases though

 

[Dr. Death]

Hello:

My aim is to become a specialized surgeon (e.g., an orthopedic trauma surgeon). Are DOs limited in their residency opportunities? Can a DO become an orthopedic trauma surgeon?


Thank you!

Not unless they know how to use the search function.

 

[JB50]

Posts: 2.

U srs guys.

 

[ortnakas]

 

[Goro]

Look up the Program Director's Survey 2016 and you'll find which specialties are most and least DO-friendly.
www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/.../NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

Hello:

My aim is to become a specialized surgeon (e.g., an orthopedic trauma surgeon). Are DOs limited in their residency opportunities? Can a DO become an orthopedic trauma surgeon?


Thank you!

 

[Sweetfishy87]

Not unless they know how to use the search function.

It looks like DOs have a more burdensome process than MDs if attempting to get accepted into an MD residency. For example, some DOs take the MD and DO board examination. Also, they may have to complete addition "projects" that MDs wouldn't. Also, DOs also have to learn manipulative techniques where MDs don't.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It looks like DOs have a more burdensome process than MDs if attempting to get accepted into an MD residency. For example, some DOs take the MD and DO board examination. Also, they may have to complete addition "projects" that MDs wouldn't. Also, DOs also have to learn manipulative techniques where MDs don't.

Nice, lecturing a current medical student on the differences between DO and MD residency applications.

 

[Dr. Death]

Indeed thank you for the clarification.

 

[Sweetfishy87]

Indeed thank you for the clarification.

Cheers!

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

Yes. It is possible. Yes it will be harder.

 

[White Coat Hopefuls]

Right now residencies in the DO world are in a bit of flux due to single accreditation. All of the DO residencies must become ACGME accredited by 2020. Unfortunately, I do not know about orthopedic trauma fellowships, but I do know a few DO classmates who really wanted orthopedic residencies but who didn't get picked up. There are fewer DO orthopedic spots as a whole, and this number may decrease with the new accreditation requirements. DOs can apply for MD spots, but its even more difficult as a DO. Either way, DO or MD, its a difficult road to become an orthopedic surgeon. If you want to do it more than anything else though, go for it! I'm not sure where you are in the schooling spectrum, but when you get to medical school (assuming you're a premed), keep an open mind. Even if you don't though, medical school has a way of making sure you pick the right specialty for you, and often it isn't the one you anticipated. I went in thinking I was going to be an orthopedic surgeon, and came out as an emergency med resident. Couldn't be happier.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

It's going to be A LOT harder.
Many surgery programs are now either merging or closing. Some of the programs that have gotten pre-accreditation interviewed MDs this cycle. I personally know 2 surgery programs in Chicago that interviewed MDs this year.
Medical education evolves constantly. This change decade by decade. A majority (50%+) of DOs will probably be going into primary care after these next 2 years and THAT'S OKAY. This is just the direction the profession is taking now it seems.

 

[aspiringDOcWV]

It's going to be A LOT harder.
Many surgery programs are now either merging or closing. Some of the programs that have gotten pre-accreditation interviewed MDs this cycle. I personally know 2 surgery programs in Chicago that interviewed MDs this year.
Medical education evolves constantly. This change decade by decade. A majority (50%+) of DOs will probably be going into primary care after these next 2 years and THAT'S OKAY. This is just the direction the profession is taking now it seems.

...50%? Sources?

 

[pseud0]

...50%? Sources?

His ass

 

[Sweetfishy87]

Right now residencies in the DO world are in a bit of flux due to single accreditation. All of the DO residencies must become ACGME accredited by 2020. Unfortunately, I do not know about orthopedic trauma fellowships, but I do know a few DO classmates who really wanted orthopedic residencies but who didn't get picked up. There are fewer DO orthopedic spots as a whole, and this number may decrease with the new accreditation requirements. DOs can apply for MD spots, but its even more difficult as a DO. Either way, DO or MD, its a difficult road to become an orthopedic surgeon. If you want to do it more than anything else though, go for it! I'm not sure where you are in the schooling spectrum, but when you get to medical school (assuming you're a premed), keep an open mind. Even if you don't though, medical school has a way of making sure you pick the right specialty for you, and often it isn't the one you anticipated. I went in thinking I was going to be an orthopedic surgeon, and came out as an emergency med resident. Couldn't be happier.

Thank you for your response!

 

[hallowmann]

Programs with pre-accreditation cannot interview or accept MD students. Only programs with initial accreditation can. If they told you they were, they were lying. MDs can't even apply to those programs yet.

Ortho is really hard, whether you're an MD or DO. In the past borderline DOs had a shot at DO only Ortho if they performed well on auditions. With the merger, I would be really surprised if those DOs that barely made it into Ortho would have a chance. In addition, even in the DO only world competition is getting harder. There are more DOs competing and the DOs coming in are generally academically stronger than they've been in the past.

Going into med school (DO or MD) with the idea of Ortho or bust is a terrible idea. Now if you really want to do Ortho and can't get in to any US MD school, that's one thing, but it would be best to know you could be comfortable in another field (like PM&R or FM->Sports med - just thinking about fields somewhat related to Ortho).

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

...50%? Sources?

His ass

I find it HILARIOUS that it's the pre-meds that are poking fun and calling into question the analysis of actual medical students.
I know you want us to say "There is no difference; go to a DO school, do well, and you can be a plastic neuroradioanesthesiooncologist surgeon" but the REALITY that CURRENT medical students (especially those in years 2-3) SEE and UNDERSTAND from firsthand experience and attending national conferences is that matching will be much harder in the very near future and a large chunk of the protected DO specialty programs are either merging with existing ACGME programs or closing.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Programs with pre-accreditation cannot interview or accept MD students. Only programs with initial accreditation can. If they told you they were, they were lying. MDs can't even apply to those programs yet.

That's what I meant. Many DO programs that filed their paperwork early and received initial accreditation last year interviewed MDs this year.
Here is just one example:
http://www.cookcountyhhs.org/medica...y/neurosurgery/residency-program/eligibility/
"Beginning from July 1st 2015, the program would accept graduates with both D.O and M.D degrees based on recent merger between ACGME and AOA."

 

[hallowmann]

...50%? Sources?

~50% of DOs are already going into Primary care (i.e. FM, IM, Peds, and OB/Gyn). Actually the number of DO specialists have gone up over the years, due to a reduction in the number of DOs who go into primary care (it used to be a higher percentage). This isn't really something to criticize. Look at most DO match lists, that will be obvious.

Its also a misleading metric. DO schools (most of them at least) select for people going into primary care. Sure there are some graduates that get "stuck" in it due to poor performance, but realistically a lot of DO students are going to medical school for PC. Its one of the reasons rural primary care is full of DOs and why a lot of the older DO schools are in rural areas. Just look at the match lists of rural MD schools, you'll see much of the same (50:50 split).

I know plenty of people going into specialties and primary at my school. You do what you ultimately like doing. Most people I know have changed their minds multiple times through the last 3.5 yrs.

To be clear, none of this means DOs match as well as MDs. They don't. But this isn't a "where should I go US MD or DO" thread.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Lets not act like getting an MD means getting into Ortho is a breeze. Rather, if you are a MD, getting into Ortho alone remains hard as hell. As a DO, it is hard AF. Also, I am beginning to hate these posts now because like 8/10 of those who want to do something do not end up doing it because of a litany of reasons whether it is poor scores or more likely realizing that surgery sucks for the majority of med students who rotate. To put another way, if someone is 100% devoted to being a ortho specialied whatever I actually question their judgement because there is so much education to be had that will inevitably alter one's mindset. It's like a major in college. Most everyone changes at least once.

/rant

 

[AlteredScale]

Lets not act like getting an MD means getting into Ortho is a breeze. Rather, if you are a MD, getting into Ortho alone remains hard as hell. As a DO, it is hard AF. Also, I am beginning to hate these posts now because like 8/10 of those who want to do something do not end up doing it because of a litany of reasons whether it is poor scores or more likely realizing that surgery sucks for the majority of med students who rotate. To put another way, if someone is 100% devoted to being a ortho specialied whatever I actually question their judgement because there is so much education to be had that will inevitably alter one's mindset. It's like a major in college. Most everyone changes at least once.

/rant

Def agree. As an MD however. You actually will HAVE and ortho department to find mentors and research with. Most DO schools don't have it and it makes it that much more frustrating when you see your MD counterparts spitting off pubs left and right in the field of their interest because they have a mentor. Mentoring is huge and unfortunately most DO schools like the faculty number to do this well (especially with the ginormous class sizes).


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[Doctor_Strange]

Def agree. As an MD however. You actually will HAVE and ortho department to find mentors and research with. Most DO schools don't have it and it makes it that much more frustrating when you see your MD counterparts spitting off pubs left and right in the field of their interest because they have a mentor. Mentoring is huge and unfortunately most DO schools like the faculty number to do this well (especially with the ginormous class sizes).


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That is a great and important point and reminded me what my buddy at a state school said to me recently that academic docs are actively and frequently looking for med students to help with research at his school. That is to me a significant benefit of going to a MD and one I am aware of. Right now, during my gap year, I am trying to write a paper to get published basically because I know how hard it will be at a DO school. However, I feel like opportunities for research are possible during the summer, but require lots of leg work on behalf of the DO student.

 

[pseud0]

I find it HILARIOUS that it's the pre-meds that are poking fun and calling into question the analysis of actual medical students.

What analysis? I see no analysis. I see a number randomly pulled out of thin air with no evidence.

I know you want us to say "There is no difference; go to a DO school, do well, and you can be a plastic neuroradioanesthesiooncologist surgeon" but the REALITY that CURRENT medical students (especially those in years 2-3) SEE and UNDERSTAND from firsthand experience and attending national conferences is that matching will be much harder in the very near future and a large chunk of the protected DO specialty programs are either merging with existing ACGME programs or closing.

Yeah, no ****. Now where did either of us say otherwise?

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

Lets not act like getting an MD means getting into Ortho is a breeze. Rather, if you are a MD, getting into Ortho alone remains hard as hell. As a DO, it is hard AF. Also, I am beginning to hate these posts now because like 8/10 of those who want to do something do not end up doing it because of a litany of reasons whether it is poor scores or more likely realizing that surgery sucks for the majority of med students who rotate. To put another way, if someone is 100% devoted to being a ortho specialied whatever I actually question their judgement because there is so much education to be had that will inevitably alter one's mindset. It's like a major in college. Most everyone changes at least once.

/rant

Right there with you; this conversation is annoying now (the whole DO vs. MD getting into super-hyper-ultimate-omega competitive specialties.)

And going along with another point you made, I have a friend that has been telling people all through undergrad they are going ortho. They didn't take the MCAT seriously, bought First Aid before even applying (gunners gunna gun?...), was the cockiest pre-med I knew, and got no love from any schools this cycle (DO & MD.) Gotta stay humble and open-minded going through this craziness!

 

[Ho0v-man]

The sky is the limit for DOs!!!!




















But the asteroid belt is the limit for MDs so get that 260 usmle and hope for FM in North Dakota

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Right there with you; this conversation is annoying now (the whole DO vs. MD getting into super-hyper-ultimate-omega competitive specialties.)

And going along with another point you made, I have a friend that has been telling people all through undergrad they are going ortho. They didn't take the MCAT seriously, bought First Aid before even applying (gunners gunna gun?...), was the cockiest pre-med I knew, and got no love from any schools this cycle (DO & MD.) Gotta stay humble and open-minded going through this craziness!

OK, now I question your judgement that that person is your friend lol

 

[Mad Jack]

It looks like DOs have a more burdensome process than MDs if attempting to get accepted into an MD residency. For example, some DOs take the MD and DO board examination. Also, they may have to complete addition "projects" that MDs wouldn't. Also, DOs also have to learn manipulative techniques where MDs don't.

This is news to us all. Had this information not come to light, we would all have remained stumbling blindly through the dark that is ERAS. Thank you for your insightful and refreshing post.