Are Pre-Meds Altruistic

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Is that your altruistic contribution?

😉
 
What @J Senpai is saying is the question is much too broad to actually get a conclusive answer. There is no way of knowing if pre-meds are altruistic other than by polling every single one of them. As you would find, not one is the same in their motives or aspirations.

The answer to your questions is: Yes. Sort of. No. A little bit but not really. Mostly but sometimes no... Blah, blah, blah.

The question is impossible to answer. However, I see myself as going into medicine for reasons that benefit myself as well as others. I don't think that makes me a bad person, but clearly it doesn't mean I have an "unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others" as I am selfishly trying to do what I believe will make me happy.
 
HCHopeful said:
What @J Senpai is saying is the question is much too broad to actually get a conclusive answer. There is no way of knowing if pre-meds are altruistic other than by polling every single one of them. As you would find, not one is the same in their motives or aspirations.

The answer to your questions is: Yes. Sort of. No. A little bit but not really. Mostly but sometimes no... Blah, blah, blah.

The question is impossible to answer. However, I see myself as going into medicine for reasons that benefit myself as well as others. I don't think that makes me a bad person, but clearly it doesn't mean I have an "unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others" as I am selfishly trying to do what I believe will make me happy.
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But what do most pre-meds say on application forms? I want to unselfishly benefit all humans, or "Blah, blah, blah?"
 
z_maverica said:
But what do most pre-meds say on application forms? I want to unselfishly benefit all humans, or "Blah, blah, blah?"
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Applications are about showing admissions committees you are capable of seeing the bigger picture and actually searching inside of yourself a bit. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a bit of "fluff" that goes into application essays, but the committee knows this! They are under no false pretense when it comes to reading through an application. But even if someone is "selfishly" volunteering their time at a nursing home, it is still giving their time to other people attempting to benefit them. Regardless of intention, the result is the same.

If you are not able to articulate the unselfish reasons as to why you want to go into medicine, then that is a problem in and of itself. Clearly this is not the only intention pre-meds have, but it is the most important. That is why it is written about on applications. If you don't have an underlying desire to help others (even if that is generic), then the profession isn't for you. You don't have to be the next Mother Teresa, but you should be capable of something that resembles altruism.

Truthfully, a lot of people go into medicine for prestige and money and just "fluff" their applications. Why do you think around 50% of doctors say they would have done something else as a career if given the chance?

It's these people that have the same lack of understanding as you. Just because the main purpose of an application is to demonstrate that you're capable of feeling for others doesn't mean it isn't true.

My main reason for going into medicine is because I think it will allow me to be happy. I believe this because I enjoy seeing the light in a person's eyes after you've done something for them that few could. It doesn't have to be saving their life, but being able to provide a service that can help a person even in the slightest bit is appealing to me. I also enjoy the intellectual challenge that comes along with being a pre-med and eventually medical school--not to mention all of my years as a practicing physician. I am competitive with myself, so pushing myself to my limit is something I love. I am also not naive enough to insist that the allure of being financially secure once I have hit my 40's isn't a nice proposition. I am willing to sacrifice my younger years if it means living comfortably when I am older.

The most important reason for going into medicine is the desire to put others before yourself. If that's lacking, then just don't.
 
It's stuff like this that makes me dislike other pre-meds, as unfortunate as that is.
 
I'd say in general, yes. Most people apply to medical school with the others peoples welfare in mind. I'd say most premeds really do want to help people.
 
I feel like I'm pretty selfish, to be honest. I feel a weakness of the medical school application process is that it blurs the line between altruism and doing good for selfish interests... Not intended of course, but it's a side effect. I've had to ask myself "do I really want to do this for other people, or is it just for me?"
 
Spinach Dip said:
Congrats! You just won this thread! :claps:
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Haha thanks! I understand what they're doing but people adapt to the system, even the people who want to be doctors for selfish reasons.

Heck, I care about people and am passionate about human rights and treating people well and want to do good in the world. But sometimes I'm so caught up in trying to have the best grades and ECs and research that I sometimes forget to actually stop and really care about people, haha.
 
I think most people are altruistic so yah I would say most pre-meds are altruistic. I don't buy into the whole "well when you volunteer you feel good so that's selfish" hooblah because that's ridiculous. I don't think being altruistic and volunteering are the same thing, however, and the application process enhances the confusion between the two.
 
Unselfish = willing to put the needs or wishes of others before one's own.
 
Lucca said:
I think most people are altruistic so yah I would say most pre-meds are altruistic. I don't buy into the whole "well when you volunteer you feel good so that's selfish" hooblah because that's ridiculous. I don't think being altruistic and volunteering are the same thing, however, and the application process enhances the confusion between the two.
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Agreed. If anything, volunteering introduces individuals to the different types of people in need. For me volunteering was a means to understand how best to develop my talents in order to help others -- not just through medicine.

Example: volunteer at a sustainability institute that grows its own food etc etc. Now: work for a successful plant company that allows us to propagate 250,000 plants from a single one and genetically analyze them, saving farmers and orchard managers virtually millions of dollars. We also save loads of gallons of water with this method.

I'm pretty altruistic anyway. It's just how I was raised because my grandparents came from Eastern Europe and worked in coal mines for the first half of their lives. Then they immigrated to the US where they lived below the poverty line for years. All they wanted was a better life for their children. That inspired me while growing up, and I was taught to be minimalistic and understanding of others.

love your name/avatar btw
 
In philosophy we learned discussions are impossible unless people agree to standard definitions.
 
I do volunteer work that I personally enjoy, so perhaps a little selfish?
 
Read The Selfish Gene. Everybody is inherently selfish. Nothing we can do about it. And every action we make can be traced back to selfish roots even if it appears altruistic.
 
UNMedGa said:
I feel like I'm pretty selfish, to be honest. I feel a weakness of the medical school application process is that it blurs the line between altruism and doing good for selfish interests... Not intended of course, but it's a side effect. I've had to ask myself "do I really want to do this for other people, or is it just for me?"
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In my anecdotal experience people with these attitudes tend to adjust "better" to the realities of medicine. The super altruistic/idealistic students tend to be crushed/disappointed when they see what modern healthcare is. You are picking a career for the rest of your life, there is no shame in being a bit selfish about that. There are some who stay very altruistic and God bless them, but you don't see too many.

I honestly think most premeds are faking it and don't even realize it. If you have ever replied "then you shouldn't be a doctor" on this website, then you count..... And I don't think you should become a doctor
 
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DubVille said:
In my anecdotal experience people with these attitudes tend to adjust "better" to the realities of medicine. The super altruistic/idealistic students tend to be crushed/disappointed when they see what modern healthcare is. You are picking a career for the rest of your life, there is no shame in being a bit selfish about that. There are some who stay very altruistic and God bless them, but you don't see too many.

I honestly think most premeds are faking it and don't even realize it. If you have ever replied "then you shouldn't be a doctor" on this website, then you count..... And I don't think you should become a doctor
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Exactly. I've stated everything you've said multiple times here on SDN. I hate seeing so many posts belittling pre-meds and med students for thinking about things like lifestyle or compensation. I'm tired of hearing people's ideas of what are the "right" reasons to go into medicine. The right reasons are specific to each individual. While I think it's admirable for people to want to "save all the little niños of the world", I think those individuals are truly few and far between. The right reasons are whatever keeps you motivated to be a great physician, whether that be saving the little niños, making bank, going to the club and **** (allusion to a previous post), providing a comfortable lifestyle for your family, having the time to spend with your children, or some combination of the above.
 
The most important reason for going into medicine is the desire to put others before yourself.
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I don't know about altruistic but my worst leadership trait was EMPATHY during all my evaluations. I know I can be a good doctor while having a silent discontent for people's decisions.
Additionally I think we are all "altruistic" in some degree but for very selfish reasons (I know I am generalizing).
 
ashtuzhed said:
The most important reason for going into medicine is the desire to put others before yourself.
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Not sure if serious or trolling.

However if you are serious, this is exactly the kind of attitude that is feigned by a lot of students. Is this also the most important reason to be a nurse, cop, politician (lol), firefighter, priest, teacher, waiter, etc, etc. Almost every job "helps people" but imo it's not the most important thing and it's false altruism to think this profession is holier than others.
 
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DubVille said:
Not sure if serious or trolling.

However if you are serious, this is exactly the kind of attitude that is feigned by a lot of students. Is this also the most important reason to be a nurse, cop, politician (lol), firefighter, priest, teacher, waiter, etc, etc. Almost every job "helps people" but imo it's not the most important thing and it's false altruism to think this profession is holier than others.
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It's also delusional to think that this profession isn't special in any way whatsoever compared to those other ones. Every profession is about helping people sure but it takes a special commitment to the service of others if you are going to take seriously the stewardship of death, the laying on of hands of a physician, the responsibility to ensure that your patient leaves the room understanding what is going on in their body, to advocate for your patient when the time comes, to resist the incentives of the healthcare system and maintain an ethical practice, to put the patient's needs before yourself without being bitter.

There is something special about the healthcare professions. What separates medicine from those other ones is the aptitude and willingness for leadership and the maintenance of an expanding and sizeable fund of knowledge and skills and the constitution to have the buck stop with you. The skill to put others before yourself - and I do think its a learned trait as well as an inherent one - is even more important in the physician's seat because it extends to the other members of the healthcare team and will be the only thing that will save you when your friends are off living their lives when you are in residency, while your kid is growing up without you when your on call or asleep, when you are paying back your debt, when your patients die, etc.

I'm all for suppressing naïveté but I will take naïveté over the ignorant cynicism that medicine is "just like any other job" because it's not.
 
ashtuzhed said:
The most important reason for going into medicine is the desire to put others before yourself.
3l.jpg
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Here's the thing- medicine is all about being willing to help people and sacrifice for them, but does not require that you deeply desire to do so. It is kind of like being an infantry soldier, in the sense that they must be willing to kill, but do not have to deeply desire to do so.

The trouble with basing your career on altruism is that it fades. At that point, you are reliant on your work ethic alone. So the question is, if you lost your desire to help people, could you still do the work required of a physician? Would you be willing to do what is necessary, even if it wasn't giving you the warm fuzzies anymore? Or will the paperwork, sad cases, fear of litigation, and decreasing autonomy crush your soul? The answer to that question is far more important than, "are you altruistic?"
 
So...in ecology we learned that there's really no such thing as altruism. There is apparent altruism, but there is always some sort of selfish inclination in everything we do, really.
 
Lucca said:
It's also delusional to think that this profession isn't special in any way whatsoever compared to those other ones. Every profession is about helping people sure but it takes a special commitment to the service of others if you are going to take seriously the stewardship of death, the laying on of hands of a physician, the responsibility to ensure that your patient leaves the room understanding what is going on in their body, to advocate for your patient when the time comes, to resist the incentives of the healthcare system and maintain an ethical practice, to put the patient's needs before yourself without being bitter.

There is something special about the healthcare professions. What separates medicine from those other ones is the aptitude and willingness for leadership and the maintenance of an expanding and sizeable fund of knowledge and skills and the constitution to have the buck stop with you. The skill to put others before yourself - and I do think its a learned trait as well as an inherent one - is even more important in the physician's seat because it extends to the other members of the healthcare team and will be the only thing that will save you when your friends are off living their lives when you are in residency, while your kid is growing up without you when your on call or asleep, when you are paying back your debt, when your patients die, etc.

I'm all for suppressing naïveté but I will take naïveté over the ignorant cynicism that medicine is "just like any other job" because it's not.
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Those are some sweet platitudes. I'm not saying that it helps to have a passion for helping others isn't important, or beneficial. However you, and many others (especially premeds) think this profession is a conviction. In my experience those that feel this way are disenchanted years after experiencing reality. I love my job and enjoy helping others at my job. That said its a job, and I'm under no illusion that I or my colleagues are self sacrificing saints that are morally superior to any other group of people.

Maybe you will be one of the few who spend their career in the Indian health services, free clinics, volunteering frequently oversees, etc. if so then good for you. But please don't tell me that I am a cynic unfit to "take the stewardship of death, or have the laying hands of a physician." Especially as a premed. And because this is SDN I'm sure you have 8 billion hours of healthcare experience, work with physicians, etc, etc, etc and I don't want to hear it.

Mad Jack said:
Here's the thing- medicine is all about being willing to help people and sacrifice for them, but does not require that you deeply desire to do so. It is kind of like being an infantry soldier, in the sense that they must be willing to kill, but do not have to deeply desire to do so.

The trouble with basing your career on altruism is that it fades. At that point, you are reliant on your work ethic alone. So the question is, if you lost your desire to help people, could you still do the work required of a physician? Would you be willing to do what is necessary, even if it wasn't giving you the warm fuzzies anymore? Or will the paperwork, sad cases, fear of litigation, and decreasing autonomy crush your soul? The answer to that question is far more important than, "are you altruistic?"
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Exactly
 
DubVille said:
Those are some sweet platitudes. I'm not saying that it helps to have a passion for helping others isn't important, or beneficial. However you, and many others (especially premeds) think this profession is a conviction. In my experience those that feel this way are disenchanted years after experiencing reality. I love my job and enjoy helping others at my job. That said its a job, and I'm under no illusion that I or my colleagues are self sacrificing saints that are morally superior to any other group of people.

Maybe you will be one of the few who spend their career in the Indian health services, free clinics, volunteering frequently oversees, etc. if so then good for you. But please don't tell me that I am a cynic unfit to "take the stewardship of death, or have the laying hands of a physician." Especially as a premed. And because this is SDN I'm sure you have 8 billion hours of healthcare experience, work with physicians, etc, etc, etc and I don't want to hear it.



Exactly
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I agree that it's not a conviction but it's not a profession that can or should be done by everyone especially if they lack the willingness to sacrifice themselves for others. I'm not going to claim to have more experience than you and I didn't mean to call you a cynic. I said "ignorant cynicism" meaning starting off from the position of cynicism without actually being in the profession. I think in a trainee and student naïveté that's capable of being molded is better than starting off from "It's all the same, PP outpatient psych for me Leggo" right from the get go.
 
Jplewis002 said:
So...in ecology we learned that there's really no such thing as altruism. There is apparent altruism, but there is always some sort of selfish inclination in everything we do, really.
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I wouldn't consider doing something to help others inherently selfish, and really don't buy into the whole "altruism is an illusion" line of thinking. The whole argument that "altruism is inherently selfish" line came into being because of the theory that every behavior must be evolutionarily advantageous, and anything that is evolutionarily advantageous is inherently selfish. But I've done incredibly nice things for people I've never met and would never see again, because I think that random acts of kindness make the world a better place. I don't think "wanting the world to be a better place" is truly selfish, as the only alternatives are stagnation or actively wanting to make the world a worse place, so this false dichotomy means that your only options are being selfish or being an ass, and that's just not a world I want to live in.
 
Mad Jack said:
I wouldn't consider doing something to help others inherently selfish, and really don't buy into the whole "altruism is an illusion" line of thinking. The whole argument that "altruism is inherently selfish" line came into being because of the theory that every behavior must be evolutionarily advantageous, and anything that is evolutionarily advantageous is inherently selfish. But I've done incredibly nice things for people I've never met and would never see again, because I think that random acts of kindness make the world a better place. I don't think "wanting the world to be a better place" is truly selfish, as the only alternatives are stagnation or actively wanting to make the world a worse place, so this false dichotomy means that your only options are being selfish or being an ass, and that's just not a world I want to live in.
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You're interpreting the evolutionary argument incorrectly. The OP is talking about whether pre-meds are consciously selfish, or that they are selfish for the benefit of themselves, as individuals. Selection occurs at the gene level, as Dawkins so eloquently put it. So there is nothing evolutionarily that says you can't do incredibly nice things for people you've never met, consciously. I like to think that we are more than the will of our genes, that we can override them at times.

That said, you helping other people you've never met can still be seen as a sign of altruism. It's a type of mutual exchange that's seen across the animal kingdom, in bats, for instance. Consciously or not, you help other people because you have that expectation, however deep inside of you, that if you were in a similar situation in the future, somebody else would help you in a similar way - if not an expectation then a shred of hope. Now, in animals, this only evolves in small group settings because they have to be able to recognize the receiving individual and ostracize it if the mutualism is not returned. In humans, the development of culture, possibly the greatest evolutionary advancement in the history of the universe, made mutual altruism possible without the need to recognize the receiving individual. That is, in a culture where selfishness itself is ostracized, altruism becomes the norm in the sense that you are, consciously or subconsciously, expected to help out another human being in dire need. Think about what you would think of an individual who stood on the sidewalk, watched an old woman fall in the street, and did nothing. You can attribute it to your raising, etc. but in the end, it's a social expectation. So in other words, the evolution of culture made the world not a "stagnant" place, as you would put it.
 
See below:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/you-know-youre-a-premed-gunner-when.646048/
#16 is my favorite
^not sure if its serious or not, but its a good chuckle 😛. I can't speak about other pre meds, but if people ask me for help/advice, I always give them the honest answer. I'm not gonna sit there are lie, denying I know how to do that problem and hope they do worse on an exam...its disgusting to me cause I know people who actually do that.
 
Jplewis002 said:
So...in ecology we learned that there's really no such thing as altruism. There is apparent altruism, but there is always some sort of selfish inclination in everything we do, really.
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That sounds fine when applied to every species on Earth EXCEPT humans.

Just last week I was at the local transit center and an individual (who barely spoke English) was trying to determine which bus to take to get to the airport. Would this be considered altruistic? And if not, what sort of evolutionary advantage would be acquuired through helping this person?
 
Spinach Dip said:
That sounds fine when applied to every species on Earth EXCEPT humans.

Just last week I was at the local transit center and an individual (who barely spoke English) was trying to determine which bus to take to get to the airport. Would this be considered altruistic? And if not, what sort of evolutionary advantage would be acquuired through helping this person?
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This has already been explained.
 
Spinach Dip said:
That sounds fine when applied to every species on Earth EXCEPT humans.

Just last week I was at the local transit center and an individual (who barely spoke English) was trying to determine which bus to take to get to the airport. Would this be considered altruistic? And if not, what sort of evolutionary advantage would be acquuired through helping this person?
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There's an expectation of reciprocity in this case. If you found yourself in that same situation, you could only hope someone else would be just as kind as you. Selfish! With regards to evolutionary advantage, you'd be sending him away from you so there's less competition for resources, so you then have more for yourself and your family. How selfish of you! Clearly, your agenda is not helpful! Lol only kidding. Okay, I think humans may be the exception...maybe.

Edit: @lifetothefullest put it together nicely with regards to societal expectations and culture, explaining the evolutionary advantage granted therein.
 
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Serious reply: No, the vast majority of premeds don't care about anyone but themselves and their immediate circle, just like most people. Most premeds just want to go into medicine for the prestige, money, power, etc and want to look good doing it. No shame in that because there's a reason the most lucrative specialties are the hardest to get into.
 
There is a very big school of philosophy behind the validity of altruism. The argument is usually that a) you do good things because it feels good or you'd feel bad not helping, which boils down to hedonism and/or as already mentioned b) you do good things for evolutionary reasons. If anybody here can come up with solid evidence that altruism is or isn't possessed by anyone, inc premeds, congrats, because you'll shortly be getting lots of attention for solving an ages-old, much examined problem. See also: Problem of evil, free will, the hard problem of consciousness, etc
 
efle said:
There is a very big school of philosophy behind the validity of altruism. The argument is usually that a) you do good things because it feels good or you'd feel bad not helping, which boils down to hedonism and/or as already mentioned b) you do good things for evolutionary reasons. If anybody here can come up with solid evidence that altruism is or isn't possessed by anyone, inc premeds, congrats, because you'll shortly be getting lots of attention for solving an ages-old, much examined problem. See also: Problem of evil, free will, the hard problem of consciousness, etc
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Yeah I remember that problem, but in my rusty memory, I read somewhere that philosophical altruism was somehow related to utilitarian value, in a way that true altruism is possible and even rational.

Philosophy aside, the answer is simple: premeds are opportunistic. If you want to see altruism, your best bet is to consult elderly volunteers in said hospital and outreach.
 
Lawper said:
Yeah I remember that problem, but in my rusty memory, I read somewhere that philosophical altruism was somehow related to utilitarian value, in a way that true altruism is possible and even rational.

Philosophy aside, the answer is simple: premeds are opportunistic. If you want to see altruism, your best bet is to consult elderly volunteers in said hospital and outreach.
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I think the argument is that it's rational to seek a utilitarian world and building and maintaining such a world would involve a lot of people selflessly sacrificing to help those needier or enable those more capable. But you can eventually turn that into the same argument that people desire a util world for "hedonistic" (not using the traditional concept of pleasure) reasons or for their children to experience etc.

I've met premeds who are transparently box-checkers but I've also met some driven by past experience with very nasty disease who do want to help people; it just isn't really altruistic of them because they enjoy it/would be miserable doing anything else
 
Jplewis002 said:
With regards to evolutionary advantage, you'd be sending him away from you so there's less competition for resources, so you then have more for yourself and your family. How selfish of you!
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LOL!

Well played sir.
 
Spinach Dip said:
That sounds fine when applied to every species on Earth EXCEPT humans.
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Many people seem to have a (false) illusion of human exceptionalism. Why are humans any different from the millions of other species in the animal kingdom? We have no problem accepting the laws of physics as universal, e.g. humans can't teleport, but when it comes to the "laws" of biology, many people get offended when the laws are applied to the human species. Everywhere we look around us is evolution. The fundamental law of evolution is that individual genes are selfish. Why? Because "altruistic" genes that make other genes better at its own expense don't survive long enough to make as many "babies" as the genes that are selfish. It's a statistical game. Not many exceptions have been found and apparent exceptions actually do fit within the rule. For instance, kin-directed altruism - feeding your brothers and sisters while you accept less food for yourself - is not altruistic because the "gene" can maximize its survival by making sure your brothers and sisters live on because there's a 50% chance the same gene is within them. Another big one is reciprocity altruism and that one thrives for the reasons I outlined above.

So if genes are necessarily selfish and they program us, then we are most definitely selfish. Individual exceptions do exist, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. For instance, you might help an old lady with her bags because that's the social norm. The social norm is there because inside of you, you expect or hope that somebody else will do the same for you when you're old. That's delayed return altruism, made possibly by culture. If people can be ostracized on the basis of social norms, there's no need to keep track of everybody who you have helped - other individuals in society will be expected to help you in turn.

On the contrary, if one were to argue that humans are an exception to the rule, that evolution does not account for apparent human altruism, then the logical result is not a good one. That is, why stop at the species level? You could argue that certain races are more altruistic than others. Then, on the basis of that, you could subjugate an "inferior" race because according to that view, they are destined to become fodder for the selfish. That's something like a perversion of social Darwinism.

With "exceptions," more often than not, it's not that you've observed an exception but rather that you just haven't thought of the correct selfish reason. That kind of thing happens a lot in science. Just because you can't explain a phenomenon doesn't mean it defies the laws of physics - just that you haven't thought of the way it fits in yet.
 
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