gonnif

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I am sure they are but you know the deal with off shore schools

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Advance-Data-Tables-2016_Final.pdf (see page 7, Table 4)

A decade or more ago, the Caribbean was a reasonable path to medicine It isnt the quality of the education in the Caribbean , which is questionable, that is the issue here at all. It is solely the reported (or discernible) match rate of the graduates and the underlying (and mostly unreported) attrition rate for matriculants which leads to what I call the success rate. That is, if you start medical school, what are the chances you will get a residency slot. I have discussed this at length is several other threads (links below). Essentially, in US MD schools, 94% of students graduate in 5 years going to 97% in 8 years (accounts for dual degree students). Graduating US MD seniors match into residency at 94% with likely 2%-4% getting SOAP slots. Lets say 97% total get positions. So if you start a US MD school, you have an overall 94% chance of earning your degree and getting a residency slot, thus allowing you to eventually practice medicine and pay your loans back. It should also be noted that about 75% of graduating seniors get into one of their top three ranked choices.

Bloomberg has cited from DeVry Medical International (Ross/AUC corporate parent) see link below) that Ross, for example, has about 52% of their students who complete the program and earn a degree. Of these about 85% receive a residency slot. SGU has previously reported about 30% of it graduates go to non-match slots via SOAP, off-cycle, or other mechanisms which essentially means what is ever left open at the end of the match. So if you start Ross, for example, you have an under 45% chance of earning a degree and getting any residency slot. Big risk for several hundred thousands of dollars in loans and less than a 45% chance of practicing medicine.

Additionally, in the table in the link at the top of this post there are some other numbers to be noted that tend to be overlooked: the withdrew and no rank, which are not included of the match/unmatched percentages discussed above (NRMP mixes two totals and two percentage groupings) These are applicants who apply for residency but either withdrew from selection (often for not passing boards) or did not complete the process by submitting a ranking list (often cause they did not get an interview). For the US Seniors, withdrew was 2% and no rank was 0.3%. Adding that to unmatched a total of 7.9% of the applicants who originally applied did not match into a spot. For IMG-US Citizens, if we take all who applied to residency but did not get a slot either by unmatched, withdrew, or no rank, it comes to a whopping 61.5% or nearly 8 times the US percentages.

Just a decade ago, going to the Caribbean was a reasonable path to medicine. Now with the growing number of US-MD graduates and the lack of any real growth in residency slots, squeezes the off-shore grads. With the debt that a student must risk for the losing odds on getting a residency slot, I can no longer recommend off shore schools.

The advertising and marketing machines these Carib med schools are, have fully become nothing more than corporate investment vehicles. Ross and AUC are owned by DeVry Education Group, whose stock is traded on Nasdaq under symbol DV currently at $18.21 up 1.17% with a one year target of $20.5. Why do I say all that? How do you think they will work to reach that target? Getting more students in the pipeline, more who may not be qualified but who can pay, or rather borrow lots of money before they drop out. Saba, St. Matthews, and MUA/Nevis are owned by a combination of Equinox Capital and Prairie Capital. BTW, these two investment companies have also formed Sierra Education Finance to help provide (and make money) from student loans. St. George’s University has received a substantial equity investment Canadian investor Altas Partners and a fund advised by Baring Private Equity Asia.

So 6 of the most heavily marketed carib schools are investment vehicles making profits off the debt of students, many of whom should never have been in medical school in the first place

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...an-medical-schools-use-federal-funds-loophole
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...pre-med-matriculate-in-the-caribbean.1183556/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/us-md-for-320k-or-img-for-100k.1130221/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/good-chance-at-getting-into-st-georges-should-i-do-it-3-4-overall-gpa-3-55-science-gpa.1133776/#post-16443492
 

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... that Ross, for example, has about 52% of their students who complete the program and earn a degree.
That's not what the article said. I'm going to stop reading (and commenting) on your analysis at this point. Care to re-read the article and adjust your assertion?

(I'm not taking sides. But, you either misread/misinterpreted what was said or are being disingenuous. Here's your chance to clarify.)

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the argus

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This guy re-posts this same diatribe all the time, despite the fact that multiple parts of it have been proven to be factually incorrect.

My favorite part is "Now with the growing number of US-MD graduates and the lack of any real growth in residency slots, squeezes the off-shore grads." He's been repeatedly showed the ACGME document that proves 1) there has been a substantial growth in residency spots over the past 10 years, 2) the increase in USMD grads has been less than the increase in residency positions, and 3) the number of IMGs getting residency positions has remained rock stable over the past 10 years, yet despite this he continues to re-post this same nonsense over and over.

http://www.acgme.org/About-Us/Publications-and-Resources/Graduate-Medical-Education-Data-Resource-Book
 

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I didn't review what gonnif said, but just in general I'd steer clear of the carribean unless you have someone personally bankrolling your medical education.

We can speculate all day on their attrition rate, but you know it's going to be higher than mainland schools - by a lot. A mainland MD will lose accreditation if their (well documented) attrition rate (students that show up day 1/students who go on to match within 8 years) is anything other than incredibly small (almost all Allo schools are well over 90%).

Carrib schools are not beholden to this rule, and try as you might Ross/SGU will never tell you how many students start per semester (although estimates put it at >600 a year IIRC).

So if someone is funding your education and you're not expected to pay that back, go for it. All you have to lose is 4 years of you don't match. If you're going to have to borrow money I wouldn't do it. It's not worth it if you take on 60k+ in debt just to fail out in the first semester. Or 120k and fail out in the 3rd semester. Or pass all the tests but thy won't let you sit for the boards because they're worried you'll fail. Scary stuff.

Also, remember living on an island for 2+ years isn't really as fun as it sounds. They're 3rd world carribean islands. Moderns amenities (like delivery pizza, or adequate police protection) are not givens in places like Grenada or Dominica.
 

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I would take a good hard look at @gonnif 's post as he provides a really solid argument against for-profit medical schools. The truth of the matter is that every year it becomes increasingly more difficult to match into the US as more US MD schools open and expand slots. Just because some people have attended, graduated and successfully matched into a US residency spot from a Caribbean medical school doesn't mean it's a good idea.
This guy re-posts this same diatribe all the time, despite the fact that multiple parts of it have been proven to be factually incorrect.

My favorite part is "Now with the growing number of US-MD graduates and the lack of any real growth in residency slots, squeezes the off-shore grads." He's been repeatedly showed the ACGME document that proves 1) there has been a substantial growth in residency spots over the past 10 years, 2) the increase in USMD grads has been less than the increase in residency positions, and 3) the number of IMGs getting residency positions has remained rock stable over the past 10 years, yet despite this he continues to re-post this same nonsense over and over.

http://www.acgme.org/About-Us/Publications-and-Resources/Graduate-Medical-Education-Data-Resource-Book
Considering US MDs matching have been increased by over 20% in the same time span, the fact that IMGs getting a 'rock stable' number of spots is atrocious. The simple fact is that IMG's have match rates consistently less than 50%, compared to US MD's that have 90+%.

It's fine if people have had prior success with for-profit medical schools, but to actively advise young pre-medical students into a very poor financial decision would be doing them a disservice as they are gambling nearly $300,000 on a 50% shot at actually getting a job in the US.
 

gonnif

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I would take a good hard look at @gonnif 's post as he provides a really solid argument against for-profit medical schools. The truth of the matter is that every year it becomes increasingly more difficult to match into the US as more US MD schools open and expand slots. Just because some people have attended, graduated and successfully matched into a US residency spot from a Caribbean medical school doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Considering US MDs matching have been increased by over 20% in the same time span, the fact that IMGs getting a 'rock stable' number of spots is atrocious. The simple fact is that IMG's have match rates consistently less than 50%, compared to US MD's that have 90+%.

It's fine if people have had prior success with for-profit medical schools, but to actively advise young pre-medical students into a very poor financial decision would be doing them a disservice as they are gambling nearly $300,000 on a 50% shot at actually getting a job in the US.

See the analysis and charts in the below SDN link

From 2005-2006 to 2014-2015, the total number of pipeline residency slots went from 24,368 to 27,534 for an increase of 13%. During the same period the number of US MD/DO filling those slots went 17,447 to 20,705 for an increase of 18.5%. The total number of IMGs filling those slots during the same time frame went from 6,773 to 6,837 for an increase of under 1%. The increase in the number of US MD/DO filling pipeline slots at 18.5% has outpaced the increase in the number of the pipeline slots at 13%, while the number of IMG filling those slots has remained almost completely flat. Indeed, the rate of the increase of US MD/DO graduates is 40% faster than the rate of increase for pipeline residency slots, while the rate of IMG graduates getting spots remains flat.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/saba-university.1195455/page-2#post-17809481
 
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gonnif

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It also should be noted that Ross has 3 starting classes per year with between 400-600 students per class for a total between 1200-1800 students starting each year. Ross reported on its website : "Congratulations to more than 770 current and former Ross graduates who attained residency appointments in 2016." http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm

This would range at the most conservative estimate of 64% of students who start get a residency to a low of 42%.
Using an average first year of class of 1500 students, this would be 51%
http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm
 
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It also should be noted that Ross has 3 starting classes per year with between 400-600 students per class for a total between 1200-1800 students starting each year. Ross reported on its website : "Congratulations to more than 770 current and former Ross graduates who attained residency appointments in 2016." http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm

This would range at the most conservative estimate of 64% of students who start get a residency to a low of 42%.
Using an average first year of class of 1500 students, this would be 51%
Well, your evasion of my question stands. The article clearly states that attrition is between 20-27%. Instead you move the goalposts, and even then your newer assumptions are also not backed-up. Since you are a "retired" expert on the subject matter, you should know that the largest matriculating class is the fall class. There has never been "400-600 students" in the spring and summer starting semesters (there was about 150 in the summer semester when I was there).

The article you quoted also states that only 80% of U.S. students finish on time. By your reckoning, 1 out of 5 U.S. medical students is a "failure".

My opinion? Your's is just pure, unbridled fear-mongering that also plays loose with the facts. Not worthy of my consideration. But, even a broken clock is right twice a day, I suppose.

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See the analysis and charts in the below SDN link

From 2005-2006 to 2014-2015, the total number of pipeline residency slots went from 24,368 to 27,534 for an increase of 13%. During the same period the number of US MD/DO filling those slots went 17,447 to 20,705 for an increase of 18.5%. The total number of IMGs filling those slots during the same time frame went from 6,773 to 6,837 for an increase of under 1%. The increase in the number of US MD/DO filling pipeline slots at 18.5% has outpaced the increase in the number of the pipeline slots at 13%, while the number of IMG filling those slots has remained almost completely flat. Indeed, the rate of the increase of US MD/DO graduates is 40% faster than the rate of increase for pipeline residency slots, while the rate of IMG graduates getting spots remains flat.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/saba-university.1195455/page-2#post-17809481
As has been discussed before, the rate of the increase is a meaningless statistic in this scenario. The rates are larger because rates depend on the starting number. The absolute increase in number of USMDs/DOs getting pipeline residency positions has exactly equalled the absolute increase in the number of new pipeline positions. Your claim that 10 years ago the Caribbean was an option, but now it's not, just doesn't make logical sense seeing as the number of residency positions available for IMGs is exactly the same as it was 10 years ago.

I''ll try and simplify it. Say you have a medium pizza, and IMGs take 1 slice of that pizza. Then you get a large pizza, and IMGs take a slice from that pizza that is the exact same size as the slice they took from the medium pizza. While they are getting a smaller percentage of the large pizza, they are still getting the same amount of pizza. Just because this is more overall pizza it doesn't make the amount the IMGs get worse.
 

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I would take a good hard look at @gonnif 's post as he provides a really solid argument against for-profit medical schools. The truth of the matter is that every year it becomes increasingly more difficult to match into the US as more US MD schools open and expand slots. Just because some people have attended, graduated and successfully matched into a US residency spot from a Caribbean medical school doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Considering US MDs matching have been increased by over 20% in the same time span, the fact that IMGs getting a 'rock stable' number of spots is atrocious. The simple fact is that IMG's have match rates consistently less than 50%, compared to US MD's that have 90+%.

It's fine if people have had prior success with for-profit medical schools, but to actively advise young pre-medical students into a very poor financial decision would be doing them a disservice as they are gambling nearly $300,000 on a 50% shot at actually getting a job in the US.
The argument is not USMD vs caribbean, everyone would agree that if you can go to school in the US then you should. The issue is that once you have exhausted US options, should you go to the caribbean? Posts like gonnif's above only further dirty the already murky waters and make making that decision that much harder. As Skip pointed out, he isn't even able to correctly read the bloomberg article and transfer that information to his posts.

The central theme to his argument just doesn't make logical sense. He states that,
"Just a decade ago, going to the Caribbean was a reasonable path to medicine ... I can no longer recommend off shore schools."

What has changed?

The number of residency positions available to IMGs is exactly the same as it was 10 years ago. His whole analysis on rates of increase is completely flawed. In fact, the big 3 caribbean schools are matching more people and have higher yearly placement rates than they ever have before.

The caribbean schools were still for-profit entities 10 years ago, this certainly hasn't changed.

The caribbean schools still had significant attrition 10 years ago, this certainly hasn't changed.

And by the way, your claim about 50% shot at matching is a gross misinterpretation of what the percentages in the NRMP data reports actually represent. I've discussed this at length in the past, you can read here if you care to.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/actual-us-img-match-data-and-future-prospects.1163111/
 
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the argus

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In my mind one very simple thing stands out. An unaccredited med school isn't unaccredited by choice. It's unaccredited because it isn't fit for accreditation. And THAT is scary
Ross and SGU are accredited medical schools. They are accredited by the CAAM-HP, which through the ECFMG's 2023 initiative has been recognized as meeting internationally recognized standards.

They are not accredited by the LCME, which makes sense because the LCME only accredits MD schools in the US and Canada, and Ross/SGU are not in the US or Canada. Schools in England and Germany are also not accredited by the LCME. Do you consider those schools "scary"?
 

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I skimmed this post the first time... but re-read it just now...

I didn't review what gonnif said, but just in general I'd steer clear of the carribean unless you have someone personally bankrolling your medical education.

We can speculate all day on their attrition rate, but you know it's going to be higher than mainland schools - by a lot. A mainland MD will lose accreditation if their (well documented) attrition rate (students that show up day 1/students who go on to match within 8 years) is anything other than incredibly small (almost all Allo schools are well over 90%).

Carrib schools are not beholden to this rule, and try as you might Ross/SGU will never tell you how many students start per semester (although estimates put it at >600 a year IIRC).

So if someone is funding your education and you're not expected to pay that back, go for it. All you have to lose is 4 years of you don't match. If you're going to have to borrow money I wouldn't do it. It's not worth it if you take on 60k+ in debt just to fail out in the first semester. Or 120k and fail out in the 3rd semester. Or pass all the tests but thy won't let you sit for the boards because they're worried you'll fail. Scary stuff.

Also, remember living on an island for 2+ years isn't really as fun as it sounds. They're 3rd world carribean islands. Moderns amenities (like delivery pizza, or adequate police protection) are not givens in places like Grenada or Dominica.
What is wrong with your generation? Seriously! This is one of the worst posts I've ever read.

Here's what you did:

1) Didn't even read or consider the subject being responded to - freely admitting that you're doing so - and changed it to what you wanted to talk about
2) Generated and offered an opinion without any facts to support it
3) Speculated on other facts having no information at all
4) Suggested that, even though you don't have any facts and have stated it's a bad idea, it is still all okay if someone else is footing the bill
5) Offered yet another speculative opinion and instruction about situations you haven't personally experienced

I'm guessing that, in your peer groups, this passes for "good information" these days. The BuzzFeed generation. You don't need details. Just the gist. Just how it "feels". :rolleyes:

And THAT is scary

-Skip
 

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I would take a good hard look at @gonnif 's post as he provides a really solid argument against for-profit medical schools.
No he doesn't. He provides an argument and a lot of massaged numbers. It is far from "solid".

-Skip
 

The Knife & Gun Club

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I skimmed this post the first time... but re-read it just now...



What is wrong with your generation? Seriously! This is one of the worst posts I've ever read.

Here's what you did:

1) Didn't even read or consider the subject being responded to - freely admitting that you're doing so - and changed it to what you wanted to talk about
2) Generated and offered an opinion without any facts to support it
3) Speculated on other facts having no information at all
4) Suggested that, even though you don't have any facts and have stated it's a bad idea, it is still all okay if someone else is footing the bill
5) Offered yet another speculative opinion and instruction about situations you haven't personally experienced

I'm guessing that, in your peer groups, this passes for "good information" these days. The BuzzFeed generation. You don't need details. Just the gist. Just how it "feels". :rolleyes:

And THAT is scary

-Skip
I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to convey. Basically what I was getting at is that it's very dangerous to take out a large amount of loans and then start at a professional school which does not have a particularly impressive track record of providing students with tools to pay back that debt. Having a ton of non-dischargable student debt is a can ruin your life for decades down the road.

My goal wasn't to gloss over the facts it was to point out that even without them (since these schools do a very good job of hiding them) this still stands as a dangerous decision.

As for sources mostly it's from several friends and family who have gone Carrib and experienced the debt black hole I described. But there's plenty of online info (like million dollar mistake, for example) that corroborates what I described.

Lastly I'm typing my opinion on an online forum from my cell phone. This isn't investigative journalism, it's just my opinion. or you know...millennials have murdered facts and turned the world into a PC hell hole and I'm the engineer driving us into the Devils arms. Who knows...
 

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Basically what I was getting at is that it's very dangerous to take out a large amount of loans and then start at a professional school which does not have a particularly impressive track record of providing students with tools to pay back that debt.
Says who?!?? You?

Over the past thirty years, Ross and SGU separately have placed more graduates in U.S. residencies than any other single school in the world - including all U.S. schools!

So, what exactly is your yardstick for "impressive track record"?

This isn't investigative journalism, it's just my opinion. or you know...millennials have murdered facts and turned the world into a PC hell hole and I'm the engineer driving us into the Devils arms. Who knows...
What is impressive is your display of truthiness. It's superfluous. Frequently and erroneously promulgated by other posters. Adds nothing to the discourse here. And would be impressive if, instead of coming here and trying to instruct those of us who went through this pathway and have been posting on this forum for years (in my case, over 14 of them), you were instead open-minded and willing to learn.

Not holding my breath. I am expecting a lot more "yeah, but..."

-Skip
 

gonnif

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Over the past thirty years, Ross and SGU separately have placed more graduates in U.S. residencies than any other single school in the world - including all U.S. schools!
The absolute numbers of residency placements do not matter to prospective students but rather their chances of success as defined by starting school, earning a degree and finding a any residency slot.

Attrition rates from Ross have been reported at 27% (ie failed out)
4 year completion rates have be reported at 52% by Ross (ie those who finish in 4 years)
The ultimate status of the the remaining 25% of students remains unreported by Ross.

The AAMC reports in 2011 that 82% graduate in 4 years, increasing to 94% in 5 years, to 97% in 8 years. Assuming additionally 12% also graduate in 5 years and up to 15% in 8 years , that would be 67% of students who start Ross ultimately earn a degree or at best 2/3 who start, With Ross self-reported 88% residency "attainment" rate, that would be be 59% at best of those who start Ross ultimately earn a degree and get a residency slot, compared to 96%+ at a US based school. Seems like an awfully big risk for an advisor to recommend to a student.

Of course adding to this is the mass of unreported self-dropouts, who are not captured in the formal attrition statistics. Thus my earlier post of how Ross matriculates between 400-600 a term, for three terms a year, for a total of 1200-1800 a year yet only report between 700-800 graduates each year (without noting how long each was in school). Since it is financially prudent of them to admit as many students a possible, their usual first year enrollment is 1600+. It still stands from any reasonable assessment that less than half of those who start at Ross, earn a degree and attain a residency slot.
 
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(2) The high attrition rate. I find that, clearly, there are a lot of people who get acceptances and attend this school who, quite simply, don't want it bad enough. The school says that "officially" there's only about 10% of the class that doesn't make it. In my "unofficial" estimation, I think it's closer to about 40% of any starting class won't make it to graduation. The school IS trying to do something about this, but I think a better start would be a more selective admissions policy. (Yes, I said that.)
Says who?!?? You?

Over the past thirty years, Ross and SGU separately have placed more graduates in U.S. residencies than any other single school in the world - including all U.S. schools!

So, what exactly is your yardstick for "impressive track record"?



What is impressive is your display of truthiness. It's superfluous. Frequently and erroneously promulgated by other posters. Adds nothing to the discourse here. And would be impressive if, instead of coming here and trying to instruct those of us who went through this pathway and have been posting on this forum for years (in my case, over 14 of them), you were instead open-minded and willing to learn.

Not holding my breath. I am expecting a lot more "yeah, but..."

-Skip
Look I respect you as a contributor here, and never even attacked you or your original post. I respectfully disagree with your criticisms of what I posted.

My opinion is based of of several people I know who went to SGU/Ross/AUA and all had overwhelmingly negative financial experiences, namely they either failed out around step 1 time or failed to match. This leaves you with alot of non- dischargeable student debt ($22,000 per semester not counting cost of living).

You say yourself that around 40% of the students don't make it to graduation day. Now at what point those students leave is anyones guess. But my point is that theyre borrowing some amount (at a minimum 22k, at a maximum >150k) without any reasonable certainty of being able to pay it back. Compare that to USMD school averages which have graduation rates near 97% (https://www.aamc.org/download/379220/data/may2014aib-graduationratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf) and match rates at 93% (http://www.nrmp.org/press-release-results-of-2016-nrmp-main-residency-match-largest-on-record-as-match-continues-to-grow/).

I don't have any of the gripes about the Caribbean such as being bad schools or anything. Im not there, I can't tell. But I do think taking out a bunch of debt to have a 60% shot at being able to pay it back is dangerous. I dont see how you can disagree with that.
 
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This is educational malpractice. An American school with this sort of attrition would be shut down and sued by its accreditors.

You say yourself that around 40% of the students don't make it to graduation day.
 

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I said up front I'm not taking sides.

The school reports a 20-27% attrition rate. They also claim (on their website) that 89% of their students between January 2013 and September 2015 are still enrolled.

My estimate from a previous link at the 40% is speculation. I agree that there needs to be more oversight and transparency with the real numbers. This is the biggest complaint.

I bristle and take umbrage, however, at those who come here and either willfully and/or sloppily and lazily try to make a case against the school by misrepresenting the facts, ignoring the facts, or changing the facts.

According to that flawed Bloomberg article, one out of five (20%) of U.S. medical students doesn't finish in four years. If 48% of Ross students don't finish in four years (which contradicts the numbers published by the school), that doesn't mean they never graduate. You know this, gonnif, and you are just being cheeky to insinuate otherwise.

But I do think taking out a bunch of debt to have a 60% shot at being able to pay it back is dangerous. I dont see how you can disagree with that.
You cannot default on Federal school loan debt. There is a 100% "shot at being able to pay it back". You have to. Students need to know that going in. No argument here.

And this...

Most attrition at Ross occurs in the first year of study, before students who are taking loans accumulate a large debt load. We're concerned about attrition and work to make sure our students receive the support they need to succeed; but while it's an issue, we will never sacrifice academic quality to show a higher graduation rate.
http://medical.rossu.edu/news/RUSM-Responds-to-Bloomberg-Article.cfm?grp_id=294

The idea that the majority of students who attend Ross and don't succeed will have a $200K+ debt burden that they can't pay back is absurd.

There were a lot of problems with that Bloomberg article and accepting it prima facia as indisputable fact only serves the detractors, like gonnif, who are exorcising some personal agenda.

-Skip
 
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gonnif

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I said up front I'm not taking sides.

The school reports a 20-27% attrition rate. They also claim (on their website) that 89% of their students between January 2013 and September 2015 are still enrolled.

My estimate from a previous link at the 40% is speculation. I agree that there needs to be more oversight and transparency with the real numbers. This is the biggest complaint.

I bristle and take umbrage, however, at those who come here and either willfully and/or sloppily and lazily try to make a case against the school by misrepresenting the facts, ignoring the facts, or changing the facts.

According to that flawed Bloomberg article, one out of five (20%) of U.S. medical students doesn't finish in four years. If 48% of Ross students don't finish in four years (which contradicts the numbers published by the school), that doesn't mean they never graduate. You know this, gonnif, and you are just being cheeky to insinuate otherwise.
And as you should note in my followup that I applied the same percentage from AAMC 5 year a/nd 8 year graduation increases from US MD students to Ross students, namely 15%. This is a reasonable estimate; indeed I would call this optimistic. And we must estimate as Ross does not provide any data of the 25% of students who matriculated, didnt fail out, but didnt graduate in 4 years.

That is 82% US MD students graduate in 4 years, 94% in 5 years, and 97% in 8 years
That is 52% of Ross students graduate in 4 years, 64% in 5 years and 67% in 8 years
So at best, 2/3 of students who start Ross earn a degree

Additionally, Ross reports 88% of graduates attain a residency slot. That means at best 59% of Ross students who matriculate, earn a degree and get a residency slot.
US MD have a 97% graduation rate with a 99.5%+ residency placement, meaning 96% of US students who start medical school, earn a degree and gain a residency slot.

The scenario above I have presented with optimistic and does not account for other numbers that Ross provides. The school takes in 400-600 a term for three terma a year, meaning 1200-1800 students a year. And as a part of a publicly traded company, it makes good business sense to fill all the seats you can. Typically, they have 1600+ a year, yet report in 2015 that 830 students graduated. Where are the rest? Half the class is missing?

Now, again as an advisor, it is impossible for me to recommend to a student to attend a school where there is a high probability of not graduating or getting a residency slot.
 

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The scenario above I have presented with optimistic and does not account for other numbers that Ross provides. The school takes in 400-600 a term for three terma a year, meaning 1200-1800 students a year. And as a part of a publicly traded company, it makes good business sense to fill all the seats you can. Typically, they have 1600+ a year, yet report in 2015 that 830 students graduated. Where are the rest? Half the class is missing?
I already disputed this assumption. There are just not that many students who matriculate there. The biggest class is the Fall class, by far, and the Spring and Summer classes have far less students.

Now, again as an advisor, it is impossible for me to recommend to a student to attend a school where there is a high probability of not graduating or getting a residency slot.
You and I have different definitions of "high probability".

Most who washout do so early. I would, however, like to see the percentages of those who make it past the basic sciences. I suspect that the graduation rate is high in that cohort. Other than that, you again (disingenuously, if I dare to judge) omit that the Match rate is first-time eligible graduates.

99% of 2014-2015 Ross graduates who passed their United States Medical Licensing Examinations® (USMLE) on the first attempt attained a residency by April 2016.
http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm

Better pass that USLME the first time. Did anyone, including myself, ever suggest otherwise?

Don't let me stop you from the disingenuous pursuit of your own agenda. Please. Let's clarify the actual reported facts.

-Skip
 

gonnif

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I already disputed this assumption. There are just not that many students who matriculate there. The biggest class is the Fall class, by far, and the Spring and Summer classes have far less students.
GAO United States Government Accountability Office Report to Congressional Committees
FOREIGN MEDICAL SCHOOLS: Education Should Improve Monitoring of Schools That Participate in the Federal Student Loan Program
June 2010 GAO-10-412 (p73-74)
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10412.pdf
“Average class size is 500 students and increasing toward 600.”
"It makes no difference to me if there are 100, 200, or 500 people in the lecture hall"
(these are quotes from focus groups of 5 unnamed off-shore medical schools; only one school is large enough to do that )


You and I have different definitions of "high probability".
Most who washout do so early. I would, however, like to see the percentages of those who make it past the basic sciences. I suspect that the graduation rate is high in that cohort. Other than that, you again (disingenuously, if I dare to judge) omit that the Match rate is first-time eligible graduates.
Again, it is success rate and probability for students who are just starting, the premeds, that I represent and that I examine the data for. It is the overall percent of those who start, then graduate, and then get a residency is what matters. The smoke screen of saying the percent of USMLE who get residency loses the fact that a large percent of these prospective new students will never get to the USMLE and residency. That is the percent I am concerned about. In the US schools, that is 3%

And to fully clarify your misunderstanding of how residency works and what Ross states: it never reports the MATCH rate; they report the PLACEMENT rate, using the word "attainment." That is NRMP Match plus SOAP plus Off-Cycle contracts.

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/Facts-and-Figures.cfm
2015 RESIDENCY OUTCOMES: In 2015, more than 830 Ross graduates earned a residency position. That's a record number for our school. In 2015, the first-attempt residency attainment rate for Ross students was 88%. 99% of 2014-2015 Ross graduates who passed their United States Medical Licensing Examinations® (USMLE) on the first attempt attained a residency by April 2016.

I am also using the 2013 set of data from Ross here for comparison as they state below 733 students of obtained residencies via the

http://medical.rossu.edu/medical-school/2013residencyappointments.cfm
2013 Residency Appointments List
Ross University School of Medicine congratulates all students who have obtained residency positions this year. The vast majority of these positions have been obtained through the National Registry Matching Program (NRMP). As of March 25, 2013, 733 students have obtained residencies. We will continue to update this list in the coming weeks as more students obtain residency positions.

In 2013 532 US Citizens plus 63 non-US matched from Dominica for a total of 595 matches. Additionally, 438 US Citizens and 67 non US Citizens from Dominca for a total of 505 who did not match. Lets even assume all 100 or so students from All Saints (the only other medical school on the island) did not match and give all matches to Ross. That would be 595 matches to 405 non matches, or about a 59% match rate. So, that would mean about 30% of those who attain a residency, do so via non-match methods. Or basically the leftovers. (see chart below). It should be pointed out that in the last NMRP cycle 78% of US seniors got into one of their top 3 programs and that 94% matched, with another 5% gaining SOAP slots.

My only agenda here is to advise premedical students who have a vested interest in the probability of starting medical school, earning a degree, and gaining a residency slot, which in case you didnt realize, you need to become a practicing physician. Additionally the misleading way on the Ross web where they only talk about successes in a way defined to never mentioning how many fail out, how many drop out, how many never take the USMLE, how many dont earn a degree who start, how many who never rank or withdraw from NRMP, and how many who start, never becoming a practicing physician, does annoy me. It also annoys me that prospective students and graduates sell Ross and other schools as a panacea, yet never discuss the high percentage of students who start and who never obtain their goal of becoming a physician and are left with various levels of debt in the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Frankly, my opinion of this thread opening asking the seemingly simple question if Ross was still interviewing was just bait for someone who did not get accepted for medical school this term and grab them at a vulnerable low point. It certainly provides the sales...oh I mean...admissions staff with a good commission as look DeVry stock, parent company of Ross and AUC is up.

DeVry Education Group Inc
NYSE: DV - Aug 18, 1:31 PM EDT
21.98USD0.20 (0.92%)

Charting Outcomes in the Match: International Medical Graduates
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NRMP-and-ECFMG-Publish-Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-for-International-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

Ross 2013 outcomes-page-001.jpg
 
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“Average class size is 500 students and increasing toward 600.”
"It makes no difference to me if there are 100, 200, or 500 people in the lecture hall"
(these are quotes from focus groups of 5 unnamed off-shore medical schools; only one school is large enough to do that )
Again, you're being disingenuous.

These "focus groups" were composed of students that the investigators from the GAO put together. They are ad hoc and extemporaneous comments based on perceptions those students had - not necessarily factually based or verified - and are only as relevant and valid as any other impression on this forum (i.e., not much... qualitatively stated, but not quantitatively checked). Specifically to the ones you cherry-picked, they don't say which class. If you are in in the Fall class, for example, your perception might be that all classes are that big. So, irrelevant in context of this discussion.

Here is the expanded comment from the ad hoc group that you cherry-picked and chose not fully share, and is still equally irrelevant in the context of this discussion:

"While it is certainly true that there has been recent expansion in class size, the quality of education has not been affected. I can honestly say that I have never felt that I did not have access to my instructors or clinical tutors. It makes no difference to me if there are 100, 200, or 500 people in the lecture hall. What does matter is how many people are in my lab groups. For instance, my anatomy dissection group had four people in it [similar to or better than U.S. schools]...These sessions provide all students with ample opportunity for discussion and questions."

... which in case you didnt realize, you need to become a practicing physician.
:lol: Cute. Ad hominem.

Additionally the misleading way on the Ross web where they only talk about successes in a way defined to never mentioning how many fail out, how many drop out, how many never take the USMLE, how many dont earn a degree who start, how many who never rank or withdraw from NRMP, and how many who start, never becoming a practicing physician, does annoy me.
It annoys me too. Almost as much as your willingness to skirt what facts are out there in order to force your agenda.

It also annoys me that prospective students and graduates sell Ross and other schools as a panacea, yet never discuss the high percentage of students who start and who never obtain their goal of becoming a physician and are left with various levels of debt in the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Which of us on this forum has ever done this!?!!?? Be specific. Anywhere on this forum. (That's a challenge.)

Frankly, my opinion of this thread opening asking the seemingly simple question if Ross was still interviewing was just bait for someone who did not get accepted for medical school this term and grab them at a vulnerable low point.
That's why the goal should be to offer advice that is complete, not disingenuously massaged and manipulated to serve some personal vendetta.

-Skip
 
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gonnif

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i dont have any personal vendetta but I will the take the best advice you offer and indeed pass it on to all. Since you end all your postings end with "Skip" I will suggest that any reading this thread shoul skip anymore of your postings. Why on earth you are presenting, misrepresenting, misleading and bias info, without focusing on the premedical viewpoint in a premedical forum appears to a premediated attempt to sell this school with giving the full story.
 

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i dont have any personal vendetta but I will the take the best advice you offer and indeed pass it on to all. Since you end all your postings end with "Skip" I will suggest that any reading this thread shoul skip anymore of your postings. Why on earth you are presenting, misrepresenting, misleading and bias info, without focusing on the premedical viewpoint in a premedical forum appears to a premediated attempt to sell this school with giving the full story.
Baseless accusations coupled with factually incomplete and inaccurate information, at best. And you demonstrate zero insight to my over 14 year posting history on this forum if you actually believe what you wrote there and aren't, again, being disingenous.

You are the one who butted in to answer a question that wasn't asked, then began cherry-picking information and presenting massaged data in a pseudo-credible manner.

The sad fact is, though, that most people will believe what they want to believe no matter what's said. However, they should still strive to base those decisions on good information. I probably agree with you that the schools can do a better job in being more forthcoming in that regard. You, on the other hand, clearly have nothing more than a bone to pick.

I think most of the posters (and lurkers) here are smarter than you give them credit for. They'll be the judge of whose information should be considered and whose skipped. Not you. Not I.

-Skip
 

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To be totally honest, this kind of debate happens all the time OP, someone asks a caribbean school question, skip comes on and says apply, then 5 or 6 other students come on and say dont do it, then the adcoms like goro come on with the advice to strengthen the app, then argus comes in spouting numbers that are representative just not detailed, then it becomes a whole argument.

if you want to be a doctor apply one or two app cycles try to get into the US it will make life so much easier, the path to being a physician isn't as heroic as it once was coming from the caribbean (I knew someone who went to Guadalajara in Mexico and got a residency at Harvard for one example) its tough and you may end up in the bowels of chicago or detroit for residency or end up in a beautiful hospital in florida or something for residency. Specialty wise, I truly believe that window is closing even with the numbers shown because with the merger and everyone having unprotected access to residencies, who's to say a PD won't be more likely to scoop up the MD and DOs first before the FMGs. We don't know whats going to happen in 4 years and everyone will say their opinion but you know what, we truly don't know.

Long story short, if you like a challenge go for the caribbean but remember its all risk with a hefty price tag, if you can wait a year or two and solve all your app problems and apply to the US do that.

Good Luck
 

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Specialty wise, I truly believe that window is closing even with the numbers shown because with the merger and everyone having unprotected access to residencies, who's to say a PD won't be more likely to scoop up the MD and DOs first before the FMGs.
I already addressed part of your supposition here with my own speculation.

With regards to "specialization", people do not understand basic demographics. There is still predicted to be a massive doctor shortage over the next decade. The reason? There is a dual "blip" in the demographic curve. There are a lot of doctors in their late 50's/early 60's who are going to retire and/or no longer continue to practice full-time in the next few years. The next "bolus" of physicians, those 40-55 years of age, will not be able to keep up with this demographic shift.

The result? There is another "bubble" of physicians that have or will enter the workforce who are currently in the 30's to early 40's who will bear the brunt of this. Along with the "gray wave", there will be an ongoing need to train more doctors. We are in a weird lull right now. But, for example, in my own field we are currently at a saturation point where there is anticipated to become a huge need after 2021.

Everything will have to adjust. The American People are going to have to decide whether or not they want to continue to allow the expansion of the role of mid-level practitioners, or if they will demand (and pay) doctors (what they're worth).

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/keyissues/physician_workforce/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/03/03/u-s-faces-90000-doctor-shortage-by-2025-medical-school-association-warns/

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-doctor-shortage-getting-worse-2016-4

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/15-things-to-know-about-the-physician-shortage.html

We also need a lot more specialists:

... by 2020, the United States will face a shortage of 45,000 primary care physicians and 46,100 surgeons and medical specialists.
https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/february2014/370350/physician-shortage.html

Long story short, the Caribbean schools feed a lot of the primary care need... and they ain't going nowhere no time soon!

-Skip
 

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To be totally honest, this kind of debate happens all the time OP, someone asks a caribbean school question, skip comes on and says apply, then 5 or 6 other students come on and say dont do it, then the adcoms like goro come on with the advice to strengthen the app, then argus comes in spouting numbers that are representative just not detailed, then it becomes a whole argument.
You forgot the part where the extremely knowledgable premed comes in and gives the most definitive answer, because of out of everyone, they obviously have the experience and expertise to speak the truth.

Oh I apologize, I just read the rest of your post, you didn't forget that part...
 

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Just do what you think is best for YOURSELF OP this is an age old argument of pro caribbean grads and con caribbean grads/dropouts......I suggest if you go to SGU they have a program where you can go visit and if you matriculate they give you back the money you spent as a credit on tuition. Something to think about as well
 

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You forgot the part where the extremely knowledgable premed comes in and gives the most definitive answer, because of out of everyone, they obviously have the experience and expertise to speak the truth.

Oh I apologize, I just read the rest of your post, you didn't forget that part...
Yes, this always seems to happen, doesn't it? Or, my opinion is somehow discredited because it's "different now". Like people weren't saying the exact same thing when I enrolled.

-Skip
 
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Just do what you think is best for YOURSELF OP
This is an incredibly simplistic view of the situation that most of us who have been posting here for years have sought to avoid and instruct people away from.

this is an age old argument of pro caribbean grads and con caribbean grads/dropouts......
More than that, it is about presenting good unbiased information, at least in my estimation. If you (or anyone else) has actually followed and carefully considered my posting history, you would understand that I have laboriously sought to avoid the binary, "black and white" false dilemma that is often presented in this forum.

I suggest if you go to SGU they have a program where you can go visit and if you matriculate they give you back the money you spent as a credit on tuition. Something to think about as well
Actually true. Here's more info:

http://www.sgu.edu/future-students/see-sgu.html

-Skip