Damn, I heard my friend tell me it's pretty much impossible for a DO to get into dermatology.
Are you attending a private or state DO school? If private - is it one of the "better ones"?
5/30 matched this year in derm from DO schools, so it's possible but hard.
OP's post history suggests they're going to CHSU-COM so it probably is impossible considering their inaugural class will match in 2024 and they're in cali which is uber competitive even for specialties like IM. DOs typically needed 240-250 just to land a good IM program in a desirable city in cali. Anything non-surgical is still on the table with good scores and being okay with a community program anywhere in the country.
Even surgery would be off the table?
Nothing is off the table, per se. But the ball is in your court. Like @benruitz98 said above, some of the things that are within your control are "good research, perform stellar on Step 2, and network like crazy". There's a lot of work, but if it's what you want, it's doable. Just know what you're getting yourself into.
Totally disagree, matching super competitive specialties is way more on the student than on the school. ex. BCOM inaugural class matching urology, derm, ortho and optho. Make connections early and do as much research as you can and you will be able to open doors. Work hard if derm is what you want.
no not at all, still a little hard to match from any DO school but totally possible.
Even if my med school is brand new?
yes, see my example. it is possible but just a little harder.
I think you're missing the point. Yes, certain factors make your journey easier or harder (prestige of school, newness of school, etc.). But at the end of the day, it's really on you. There have been DOs from unimpressive schools who matched neurosurgery, and there have been MDs from Harvard who didn't match (probably... I'm not actually looking that up). If you really want derm or radiology or whatever, then grab the bull by the horns. Start doing research as early as you possibly can. Start networking as early as you possibly can, and do it well. Start studying for the USMLE to make sure you crush Step 2 (COMLEX is important, but the really competitive residencies will require USMLE).
That's true to an extent
That's a good point. I mean I've looked at the NRMP residency data and I believe that's as close as I can get to the 'actual' answer to my question. I am in a special position though where anecdotal evidence / expert opinions are put into consideration. (e.g. getting into a newer DO school).
I didn't say that to equate DO to IMG in any way. Everyone knows DO>IMG in terms of probability of matching for the student. It depends on the program. There are a few near me that prefer FMGs (usually have tons of experience from their home country) to IMGs/DOs because they can essentially overwork them and they won't complain cuz they can hang a visa over their head. They maximize revenue and don't have to do as much teaching.
A wise adcom from my school told me that the people he's found to miserable are the ones who did a competitive specialty just because they could (had high stats) and also those who did what they were "passionate" about. His advice was to avoid burnout was to do something tolerable because at the end of the day it's just a job and its better to enjoy life outside of work.
cool, I was not referring to USMD at all in this conversation so no point for this input.
My school has sent people into Derm.
I think that you need to be realistic and understand that you will most likely be going into Primary Care or the other DO loving specialties, like EM, PM&R, Neuro, Path, Rads and Gas.
This. First focus on just making it through and passing without any red flags, especially going to a new (for-profit) school where they're still working out the kinks in the curriculum and rotations. Next, if you happen to do well on your boards and research then you can consider options. Prepare for the worst but hope for the best, that way you won't be upset if you don't get what you want.
The truth hurts
Not really. I just wanted a realistic assessment and I appreciate it.
One of my students starts July 1.
No, that’s only for pgy-1 derm positions which is a tiny fraction of actual Derm slots. Most are pgy-2.
I made a thread on matching General Surgery as a DO in the DO Student forum, if you have any interest in surgery I recommend reading it. Yes GS is very possible, but you have to check off some specific boxes.
Again, that statistic isn’t true. Most Derm positions are pgy-2, and that stat is only for pgy-1.
This is very true. If most of the class at a newer school is ~3.2/502 and barely struggling to pass then the school can only do so much. I would also argue that being around people with higher stats (515/3.8) - not using the word "smart" to avoid offending anyone - can rub off on you. I'm certainly not a genius but the people at my school have MUCH higher stats than I do and I've been able to rise up to their level just by being around them, learning from them (they usually have an instinct of how to study efficiently when presented with new material), etc.
Well, that is the Chicken Salad controversy, isn't it? I would say IMO, the bottom third at my school,(an established DO school with a good match record,) won't match competitive specialties because , for lack of a better word, they won't be competitive. And the bottom third at your average MD school won't do much better. Med school is a big step up for most, save the elite students. The upper third at our school adapt quite well and have good match results. Med school is what each student makes it. If one attends a new school, they are not completely shut out of anything not primary care, but there are additional hurdles to overcome. To be successful, one must set realistic goals, understand the current market/matching process, and apply to programs they would be competitive with the stats they earned. This may require moving around the country. I still don't recommend new schools unless there is no other option.
I would disagree with this statement. The bottom third at my MD school can walk into good academic IM programs, gas, rads, etc without much trouble - the same can't be said for the bottom third of most DO.
I have friends who did not take USMLE because they simply couldn't score higher than a 180 on their NBME. And their class average was ~210 with only 30-40% taking it. If you forced the other 60% to take it probably 40% would have failed and 20% barely passed. A good chunk also drop out/withdraw prior to boards for academic reasons. For example, KYCOM had a ~60% first time comlex pass rate 10 years ago. It's improved since. Their average MCAT back then was the equivalent of a 492 today. LMU, WCU, UIWSOM etc are similar. They're always fluctuating between 15-20% not passing boards (first time or at all), not including 1st/2nd year dropouts.
Isnt studying for the usmle the same as comlex though? Why would they randomly drop one?
lol....... what year are you? I've looked at COMLEX style questions and they're so poorly written that they don't even come close to the quality of USMLE. Not to mention anyone can just brute force memorize a bunch of OMM and boost their scores.
Ya but say you’re using first aid to study for both, and you go “im tired of this, step1 is too hard, im cancelling it”, and you go right back to studying from first aid
I don't understand what you're saying? Are you saying that people who busted their ass to get into medical school all of a sudden decide to call it quits and not study a little bit more for a difficult exam - an exam that can drastically impact their 30-50 year career?
How do you explain the 220+ USMLE sub-450 COMLEX students? Yes, USMLE is written better, and yes they can be very different exams in style, but I've seen people do well on COMLEX and fail/score low on the USMLE and vice versa.
Those people are the minority and they're vocal about it. The data shows that the average DO has a higher %ile COMLEX than USMLE.
I took step 1 2 years ago and the average was 231. This number is not brought down by IMGs and DOs.
Lots of people capable of passing don’t. Primarily because they know they won’t hit a high enough number to really improve their chances at whatever specialty. Or they just genuinely don’t care. I think this gets overblown on SDN a little bit. While essentially every DO student wanted to go MD, a lot didn’t bother to take the year to improve their chances when they were interested in primary care specialties. I really don’t blame anyone for not memorizing obscure cell bio when they want rural FM. I wouldn’t.
Comlex is less intense. I really think focusing on doing well in your classes and watching sketchy micro a couple times could net a lot of people a 500+ score. Instead our schools push a free combank down our throats and it hurts so many students. I also think there’s a lot of students who are, for whatever reason, incredibly cocky and feel like they shouldn’t have to do anything for comlex. I remember some primary care bound people desperately just get to passing score level before dedicated started. They wanted to just take it ASAP and use dedicated as vacation.
These are from Charting outcomes 2020.
There are a lot of people who could definitely pass that just don’t take it. Some of it is bad advising, falsely believing PDs won’t care, and I legit know more than a few people who have drunk the DO kool aid and said (verbatim), “why would I want to go to a residency program that wouldn’t accept my DO test? They clearly don’t want DOs.”
Nope. The average Step score is set by USMDs only. DOs and IMGs are not factored into the scaling of the exam.
Ok close enough.
I think the night assumption you are making that is wrong is that it’s only the top half of the DO population that only takes Step. At my school at least about 30% of the class took Step, our average was a 225, and only about half of those 30% would be considered top students. The rest of the test takers were actually people in the 3rd and 4th quartiles who knew they wanted to try and get a specialty above their rank, or have some geographic flexibility. I don’t think this is a rare phenomenon. I know multiple people in the top 20% in our class who just didn’t take Step for one reason or another.
This will be my last response. I'm glad you admitted you were making some assumptions . As you move on in medicine you will come to learn this can be risky. Better to rely on data than assumptions and anecdotal information. Remember the old saying about what happens when you A$$ u me. You never mentioned where your data came from. At this point, I see your statements are mostly assumptions and opinions, which is fine, just not accurate. As I said, our school mandates both Comlex and USMLE. You have to hit a prescribed score on practice exams before you can take it. The lowest Step 1 score in any LOR I wrote this year was 233. I agree there needs to be more transparency and recognition of both boards. Ideally, all would take USMLE with an OMM component for DOs. I believe this is the direction where things are headed.
