Argosy Updates

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So what happens to the students who might have matched this year for an internship next year, if their campus closes? Damn. Hot. Mess. Express.
There was a Argosy student in my internship cohort. He didn't finish he dissertation on time and then he posted about going through a deep depression. I doubt he has graduated yet. I wonder if he will be able to if all that is getting in the way is the completion of his "dissertation"... Otherwise know as a basic lit review.

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That’s part of the unknown. Also unknown is what happens to the students on internship this year who haven’t yet finished their dissertation.
I believe Argosy just requires a big review and they don't call it a dissertation.
I'm sure some will opt to have loans forgiven and do something else. However, there is a business case to be made for the other for profits allowing transfers with partial credit. Soak the students for an extra year of tuition that way and cash in on the hole in the market.
I'm not sure how likely this is. Many students are geographically limited, which is a big reason they attended Argosy originally.

There is also lots of evidence that the current Dept of Ed is much more conservative on loan forgiveness.
 
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An interesting scenario; does anything prevent Argosy from just graduating all their advanced students now? Or at least contingent on finishing internship? It's not like there is a negative consequence for Argosy if they are about to close down. Just hand all current interns a diploma and the ones planning to go on internship ones with next year's date.
 
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I'm not sure how likely this is. Many students are geographically limited, which is a big reason they attended Argosy originally.

There is also lots of evidence that the current Dept of Ed is much more conservative on loan forgiveness.

Not sure how likely it is. In the article dept of Ed suggested loan cancellation or transfer of credits. Hence, my theory on that. We will see. It wouldn't be the first time dept of Ed reneged on something it said. PSLF anyone?
 
WhT should happen, in my opinion, is that the faculty at argosy works for free, they waive tuition, and finish out the degrees of the existing late term students.
But not holding my breath for that to happen. Besides, a lot of faculty were already fired at some campuses.
 
Did anyone see this article from 2014 about a branch of Argosy lying and telling students it was accredited? A bit outdated, but makes me wonder how widespread this was before some branches received accreditation:

Argosy to pay $3.3 million for misleading psychology students

Apparently if at least one of your branches lied to folks about being accredited, it’s not considered a widespread problem or a red flag to APA in terms of the university itself.

I know training is technically a separate issue, but....where does APA draw the line with problems like this? Did they at least investigate all of the branches to see what they were telling folks about accreditation and just reviewing their practices in general to see if there was a pattern/history of lying about finances, accreditation, time to completion, and outcome data? If not, then the current outcome is the result of APA blatantly ignoring those earlier red flags.
 
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But not holding my breath for that to happen. Besides, a lot of faculty were already fired at some campuses.
I mean there aren't even campuses or buildings for some locations.
 
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Did anyone see this article from 2014 about a branch of Argosy lying and telling students it was accredited? A bit outdated, but makes me wonder how widespread this was before some branches received accreditation:

Argosy to pay $3.3 million for misleading psychology students

Apparently if at least one of your branches lied to folks about being accredited, it’s not considered a widespread problem or a red flag to APA in terms of the university itself.

I know training is technically a separate issue, but....where does APA draw the line with problems like this? Did they at least investigate all of the branches to see what they were telling folks about accreditation and just reviewing their practices in general to see if there was a pattern/history of lying about finances, accreditation, time to completion, and outcome data? If not, then the current outcome is the result of APA blatantly ignoring those earlier red flags.
I was in a meeting with the training councils as an APAGS rep and brought up the discrepant data. The NCSPP representative interrupted me and talked about how the data can be off because people get pregnant and withdraw from the match, etc. A few months later that story dropped and suddenly the outcome data were more consistent with APPIC match data. I guess some of them weren't pregnant after all.
 
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Back when I had first gone back to undergrad for psych and was planning on pursuing becoming a psychologist, I looked into PsyD programs because at the time I thought I did not like research. Thankfully I had a good adviser who set me straight on a lot of things and I will be forever grateful. But before she did, I contacted Argosy and another PsyD program that is a FSPS but does not have the same negative reputation as the others. I went to an info session for the latter program and they strongly sent the message that the loans were no big deal and are easily repaid; they handed out a paper on public loan forgiveness programs and also stated that none of their graduates are in default (how would they know). Argosy contacted me endlessly. Phone calls, sales pitches. I eventually screened all of their calls - naïve though I was I was aware that I wasn't such a hot commodity that schools should be begging me to go to them.

I share these stories because these programs do have a predatory bent to them. They do sell pie in the sky. I have dodged several financial bullets in my process to my current situation, and I think that was the biggest.

Is APA completely silent on this? I am bothered by that. They should be aggressively and thoroughly exploring this and doing what they can to help these students, even if only helping them consider alternative careers. They accredited this beast.
 
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I think it is telling that a professional psychological association needed money from such sources. Most successful businesses that I know of are able to decide who they do business with. I don't know if it's something to be immediately concerned about; but it should tell us something about the money in the field.
 
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WhT should happen, in my opinion, is that the faculty at argosy works for free, they waive tuition, and finish out the degrees of the existing late term students.

The Argosy faculty, setting aside any faults they might have, didn’t cause this situation. They’re also in a bind as they’re about to lose their jobs right as academic hiring season comes to a close. Not that they’re exactly a hot commodity.
 
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I think it is telling that a professional psychological association needed money from such sources. Most successful businesses that I know of are able to decide who they do business with. I don't know if it's something to be immediately concerned about; but it should tell us something about the money in the field.

Can you or any folks expand on this financial ties issue a little? How might schools have undue influence on APA financially?

I was in a meeting with the training councils as an APAGS rep and brought up the discrepant data. The NCSPP representative interrupted me and talked about how the data can be off because people get pregnant and withdraw from the match, etc. A few months later that story dropped and suddenly the outcome data were more consistent with APPIC match data. I guess some of them weren't pregnant after all.

Just....wow. Falsifying data, misleading students or outright lying to students, aggressive sales tactics, etc. etc. etc...what won't Argosy do?
 
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The Argosy faculty, setting aside any faults they might have, didn’t cause this situation. They’re also in a bind as they’re about to lose their jobs right as academic hiring season comes to a close. Not that they’re exactly a hot commodity.
Thank you. I know one Argosy faculty member, and she's a good faculty member with an impressive academic pedigree (PhD from a well-regarded R1, etc). As much as a non-fan of Argosy as I am, I do feel bad for the faculty here. I mean, yes,they were complicit in these programs, but the academic job market is brutal, and some were legitimately good faculty.

Has NCSPP said anything about this? About half of their exec board is
Argosy faculty, so they can't be happy right now...

Interestingly, cohort sizes at the Chicago School PsyD programs have substantially dropped in recent years, so they may indeed be happy to take former Argosy students.
 
Can you or any folks expand on this financial ties issue a little? How might schools have undue influence on APA financially?

They were a major sponsor of the APA convention for many years for one thing. Chicago School is a silver level sponsor for 2019. American Professional Agency (who APA switched to as their recommended malpractice Agency) is the Platimum sponsor this year. When dealing with business and politics (and the APA is all about politics), follow the money.


EDIT: You really have to love how APA ethics lectures psychologists about being in dual relationships, but thinks nothing about taking money from a program it is charged with accrediting. Do as I say, not as I do.
 
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Thank you. I know one Argosy faculty member, and she's a good faculty member with an impressive academic pedigree (PhD from a well-regarded R1, etc). As much as a non-fan of Argosy as I am, I do feel bad for the faculty here. I mean, yes,they were complicit in these programs, but the academic job market is brutal, and some were legitimately good faculty.

Argosy was aggressively recruiting for faculty just a few years back. It wouldn’t have been my choice, but I can understand why a well qualified person might accept a job there after a few hiring cycles and no other offers.

It is kind of like the collapse of any other fundamentally broken institution. It needed to go, and you’re glad to see it go, but you can also have empathy for the people who will suffer for it.

APA needs to reckon with itself on the issue of sponsorships and accreditation. @Sanman you make a great point.
 
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They were a major sponsor of the APA convention for many years for one thing. Chicago School is a silver level sponsor for 2019. American Professional Agency (who APA switched to as their recommended malpractice Agency) is the Platimum sponsor this year. When dealing with business and politics (and the APA is all about politics), follow the money.

I'm no fan of letting schools sponsor the conference, but let's be clear about the switch to American Professional. That was about the Trust not being transparent about financials with the APA. APA stated what they wanted, and the Trust refused to budge. I'm ok with that one being a sponsor.
 
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I don’t take issue w moving away from The Trust (though I always found them responsive). However, I take significant issue with the blind eye APA has played in regard to poor gatekeeping of the profession. They let the wolves in and even though there were numerous examples of harm to the profession, they did nothing.

There are plenty of example from the past decade or so, but let’s just look at a more recent example. The data post-Internship Imbalance...a handful of programs are responsible for the vast majority of unmatched trainees. Even at the height of the imbalance, it was noticeable. If they pushed back hard then, maybe we’d be in a better position as a discipline.

Allowing sponsorship from some of the worst programs sure seems questionable. Given some of the abysmal outcome data out there, they should have more aggressively attempted to address predatory programs DECADES ago.
 
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Argosy was aggressively recruiting for faculty just a few years back. It wouldn’t have been my choice, but I can understand why a well qualified person might accept a job there after a few hiring cycles and no other offers.

It is kind of like the collapse of any other fundamentally broken institution. It needed to go, and you’re glad to see it go, but you can also have empathy for the people who will suffer for it.

APA needs to reckon with itself on the issue of sponsorships and accreditation. @Sanman you make a great point.
Not argosy, but I've heard from someone else that I met at a conference that the for profits pay very well. Back when I was on the market they encouraged me to consider that route just for the cash - I didn't because of my perspective on the training model.

I don’t take issue w moving away from The Trust (though I always found them responsive). However, I take significant issue with the blind eye APA has played in regard to poor gatekeeping of the profession. They let the wolves in and even though there were numerous examples of harm to the profession, they did nothing.

Look at the data post-Internship Imbalance...a handful of programs are responsible for the vast majority of unmatched trainees. Allowing sponsorship from some of the worst programs sure seems questionable. Given some of the abysmal outcome data out there, they should have more aggressively attempted to address predatory programs DECADES ago.
The APA twitter was advertising programs last fall and I called them out on advertising poorly performing programs and they just said 'these are options', treating them as if they're equal. It's definitely an intentional blind eye for sure.
 
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Does someone have a list of those 15 programs? I’m interested but not enough to pay $12 for the article.

And is there more recent data? That’s from 2010

There is more recent data, this is all culled from the APPIC match data. Anyone could recreate this study with updated numbers from up until 2016 if they so desired. Quite easily. Also, the article is free if you search scholar.
 
They were a major sponsor of the APA convention for many years for one thing. Chicago School is a silver level sponsor for 2019. American Professional Agency (who APA switched to as their recommended malpractice Agency) is the Platimum sponsor this year. When dealing with business and politics (and the APA is all about politics), follow the money.


EDIT: You really have to love how APA ethics lectures psychologists about being in dual relationships, but thinks nothing about taking money from a program it is charged with accrediting. Do as I say, not as I do.
Don't forget the incestuous relationships the APA leadership had with the US government and contractors involved in torture, as well as kowtowing when the military psychologist division pushed back at the proposed ethical reforms in free wake of the controversy.
 
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Does someone have a list of those 15 programs? I’m interested but not enough to pay $12 for the article.

And is there more recent data? That’s from 2010
We didn’t publish the names of the programs because we didn’t want people to think “oh those ones are the bad ones” and then consider ones that are bad. The analysis was systems level and isn’t useful for individuals (eg a program that only takes three students a year and matches none ever would not have been flagged by our calculation method).
 
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Talked to someone I know from Argosy. All he has left to complete is his "dissertation". He says they are telling people to transfer, and basically it's a race against time to get it reviewed and defended before the place crumbles completely. On the plus side, all his loans are being forgiven.
 
Talked to someone I know from Argosy. All he has left to complete is his "dissertation". He says they are telling people to transfer, and basically it's a race against time to get it reviewed and defended before the place crumbles completely. On the plus side, all his loans are being forgiven.

That's one way to be fully funded.

It really is astonishing that the APA has been silent on this matter. I wonder how many less students would have opted for Argosy if it wasn't APA accredited.

Also, what exactly goes into an Argosy "dissertation?"
 
That's one way to be fully funded.

It really is astonishing that the APA has been silent on this matter. I wonder how many less students would have opted for Argosy if it wasn't APA accredited.

Also, what exactly goes into an Argosy "dissertation?"
His was a lit review.
 
Talked to someone I know from Argosy. All he has left to complete is his "dissertation". He says they are telling people to transfer, and basically it's a race against time to get it reviewed and defended before the place crumbles completely. On the plus side, all his loans are being forgiven.

He is able to graduate and get his loans forgiven? I thought it was one or the other.
 
I know 3 Argosy students who were practicum students/interns at the VA where I completed my internship. All three were veterans and used their GI bill for tuition. I don't know the ins-and-outs of the GI bill, but wondering if veterans are out of luck. Also, for the students that are hustling to defend their lit reviews, I mean dissertations, how are they going to have their student loans forgiven if they are conferred a degree? I thought forgiveness was only if a school closed before conferring a degree.

Edit: Sanman was posting my question as I was typing!
 
I'm no fan of letting schools sponsor the conference, but let's be clear about the switch to American Professional. That was about the Trust not being transparent about financials with the APA. APA stated what they wanted, and the Trust refused to budge. I'm ok with that one being a sponsor.


I don't have a particular problem with American Professional at all. They are my malpractice insurer and have been great. I was mentioning who is sponsoring the convention this year.

However, I do think there are ethical issues with this. Will APA overlook issues with a company and its ethics when they are a major sponsor. Will American Professional be more likely to fold on a malpractice suit against me if the APA is against it? There are obvious conflicts that need to be considered.

APA should be at the forefront of being professional and transparent with regard to ethical issues. Watching them in recent years, I have been less than impressed with their actions in several instances.
 
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I thought that was what he said, but I just asked to clarify and he said it is one or the other.
For all we know, that is what Argosy is now telling their students. Whether or not this is the truth....
 
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Not argosy, but I've heard from someone else that I met at a conference that the for profits pay very well. Back when I was on the market they encouraged me to consider that route just for the cash.

Funny, I had heard the opposite (pay was abysmal). Guess it depends on your point of comparison though - terrible for an R1 or AMC might still beat a low-mid tier SLAC, CC staff or CMHC position.
 
We didn’t publish the names of the programs because we didn’t want people to think “oh those ones are the bad ones” and then consider ones that are bad. The analysis was systems level and isn’t useful for individuals (eg a program that only takes three students a year and matches none ever would not have been flagged by our calculation method).


So just to be clear, even with full access to that article the names of the programs are not available? Thank you!
 
So just to be clear, even with full access to that article the names of the programs are not available? Thank you!


Sounds like that is what MCParent is saying and I would trust him. He's in good with the lead author! ;)
 
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Washington Post article has this:
“Dottore told Jones that Dream Center had only $3.8 million to cover the cost of operations. The Cleveland-based attorney said the “dire cash situation” was born of agreements the organization struck with Studio Enterprise Manager to provide enrollment management, marketing and other operational services to the colleges. The deal, according to Dottore, gave Studio “substantial management fees” for little to no work, leaving Dream Center schools strapped for cash. Studio did not immediately respond to requests for comment.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educ...udents-shorted-million-financial-aid-dollars/


Something is rotten in the State of Denmark, I mean Argosy.
 
So....$20 that we later find out Studio Enterprise Manager is either a subsidiary of the parent company, owned by a relative of Dream Center leadership or some similar version of the above and this was all a game to get as much cash as possible out the door before the whole system collapsed.

Any takers?
 
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So....$20 that we later find out Studio Enterprise Manager is either a subsidiary of the parent company, owned by a relative of Dream Center leadership or some similar version of the above and this was all a game to get as much cash as possible out the door before the whole system collapsed.

Any takers?
Can I pick which side of the bet I'm taking lol
 
The only positive thing is that if all of the campuses close then 1) they can’t do this to students anymore and 2) it would tremendously help the internship imbalance.
 
Informative Reddit thread on the topic for anyone interested.
+pity+:wtf: Yikes. Some of the things posted (and no idea if it’s true, but if it is...) makes me feel like this was a corporate incestuous pool of greed and power hunger. Ick. If there is ever a documentary on this school’s downfall, I hope it’s uploaded to YouTube and stickied in a thread about why to avoid FSPS!!
 
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The only positive thing is that if all of the campuses close then 1) they can’t do this to students anymore and 2) it would tremendously help the internship imbalance.
What imbalance?? There were more positions than applicants this year, I thought?
 
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What compounds the issue is that many psychologists seem to balk a bit when it comes to paying dues for professional memberships.
What imbalance?? There were more positions than applicants this year, I thought?

Yep. Although this would bring it closer to having an even number of applicants and accredited positions.
 
What imbalance?? There were more positions than applicants this year, I thought?

True, but the number of APA spots is still less than applicants. Given possible captive Argosy spots, I am curious to see how the numbers shake out.
 
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