Argosy Updates

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OneNeuroDoctor said:
Sounding from what I am reading that the person who was in control of the receivership is now in trouble and there will be some sort of court proceeding. Walden University and John Kennedy University are also listed as Partners. Are these programs APA accredited as I believe the programs have to be compatible with the closing program and the 10 PsyD programs that were still open until today were all APA approved.
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Where did you read about the receiver being in trouble? Do you have a link?
 
Seems one of the listserv from APA that I belong to had something that the person responsible for the receivership made things worse and would not allow more time for the Dream Center to seek out an alternative plan or owner with the end result being closing now rather than in two months when some would have graduated.
 
OneNeuroDoctor said:
Seems one of the listserv from APA that I belong to had something that the person responsible for the receivership made things worse and would not allow more time for the Dream Center to seek out an alternative plan or owner with the end result being closing now rather than in two months when some would have graduated.
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Must not be on that listserv. Haven’t heard that, though I’m not necessarily surprised.
 
It was on one of the news videos where they were interviewing students and parents where the reported implied that the "receivership person may not have followed standard protocols and he will have to report to court these claims." Most likely not factual but students and parents being emotionally upset when talking to reporters.
 
NeuroNerd747 said:
Must not be on that listserv. Haven’t heard that, though I’m not necessarily surprised.
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Whoops....I just found the video....and apparently it is that Argosy and the Dream Center will have to go to court to specify what the student loan money was spent for and not the person who was directing the receivership. It seemed that they got 13 million in loan money and by the time the receivership director took over there was only 4 or 5 million remaining and the students did not get their loan money. They did say the students will not be reimbursed tuition for this semester.

The Dream Center is the Holding Company and a non profit, but now EDMC a for profit company that used to own Argosy may be responsible as they government is revoking the transfer from a for profit to a non profit as EDMC lied on finances of Argosy University. Bottom line is this whole thing is a royal mess!!!
 
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I am an idiot (but there may be more posts after this)
 
NeuroNerd747 said:
Where did you read about the receiver being in trouble? Do you have a link?
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I linked an article earlier in this thread (that was merged with the other thread, so I don't know which page, but try page 4??) that indicated the judge overseeing the receivership ordered the receiver into court on Monday to address concerns he was making things worse. There was also a NYT article linked by someone else in this thread today (@super.ego posted also on page 4) that followed the unravelling of Argosy in more detail.

Talk about a cluster****!
 
OneNeuroDoctor said:
Sounding from what I am reading that the person who was in control of the receivership is now in trouble and there will be some sort of court proceeding. Walden University and John Kennedy University are also listed as Partners. Are these programs APA accredited as I believe the programs have to be compatible with the closing program and the 10 PsyD programs that were still open until today were all APA approved.
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JFK is APA accredited. Walden is fully online and is not. It's even worse than Argosy.
 
mypointlesspov said:
JFK is APA accredited.
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...with match rates ranging from 7-50% over the past 10 years. Out of the fire, but back into a frying pan. For many of these students their fate was sealed the moment they entered into contract with Argosy. The odds may be more against them now, but they were never great to begin with. They have been robbed, and that was the plan from the beginning.
 
super.ego said:
Unsure if this has already been shared: A College Chain Crumbles, and Millions in Student Loan Cash Disappears
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left behind a six-figure salary in software sales and consulting and cashed out his 401(k) savings to pay for his doctorate in clinical psychology at an Argosy University school
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Man oh man.

I have little sympathy for the entity of Argosy but really feel for the people affected right now. There are doctoral students right now making decisions ranging from "what career should I pursue?" to "how am I going to find a place to live?"
 
It is easy to lose your mind in the midst of a catastrophe. It's harder, still, to lose your mind prior to it being appropriate to do so.
 
Fan_of_Meehl said:
It is easy to lose your mind in the midst of a catastrophe. It's harder, still, to lose your mind prior to it being appropriate to do so.
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Most importantly, what will be the status of our position, as clinical psychologists? Will it be appropriate (or desired) to lose you focus in the midst of catastrophe?
 
Here is lastest update fro APA:

This is to keep you apprised of the rapidly evolving situation with Argosy University and the work of our staff.

This week, APA Advocacy staff, led by our Chief Advocacy Officer Katherine McGuire, continued its blitz of efforts to engage leading Members of Congress. These Members are now urging the Department of Education to ensure that our doctoral psychology students, who are attending APA-accredited programs, within the Argosy University system, are not derailed from pursuing their degrees. Many students are only weeks away from obtaining their psychology degrees.

After collecting more than 400 statements from doctoral psychology students, APA staff shared these statements and our March 1st letter with the Department of Education and key congressional staff.

Today, we were pleased to see Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL), Tina Smith (D-MN), Kyrsten Sinema (D-AZ) and 10 other Senators send a letter to the Department of Education, insisting that it take immediate action to put our students first.

We are especially grateful for the work of Senator Durbin’s staff in leading the efforts on behalf of all students impacted by this situation. It’s a testament to our own expert staff that the Senate letter includes a reference to APA’s letter and specifically urges the Department to mitigate the impact on “students enrolled in doctoral programs with internship components.”

While the crisis is still unfolding, I would like to recognize the tireless efforts of our Advocacy staff, including Karen Studwell and Jenny Smulson of the APA Advocacy Office, whose expertise has been invaluable during this challenging time for our students and faculty.
 
I read the APA statement about how argosy students can still attend internship, however, how on earth are they managing living expenses? And what about the ones who are not about to go on internship? I feel so badly for these students.
 
psydstudent2020 said:
I read the APA statement about how argosy students can still attend internship, however, how on earth are they managing living expenses? And what about the ones who are not about to go on internship? I feel so badly for these students.
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I do, too. What a mess for them. Even if they take student loan forgiveness instead of a teach-out situation, it’s potentially years of their life wasted.
 
When Forest was closing I informed my supervisor, a Forest graduate 30-years ago and he had a meltdown started crying and took the rest of the day off. Hopefully they have crisis counselors available as they are surely in shock as in death of loved one.
 
OneNeuroDoctor said:
When Forest was closing I informed my supervisor, a Forest graduate 30-years ago and he had a meltdown started crying and took the rest of the day off. Hopefully they have crisis counselors available as they are surely in shock as in death of loved one.
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That's......quite the reaction.
 
LadyHalcyon said:
"We know that students enrolled in APA-accredited programs at Argosy are being trained by faculty who are preparing them for careers to address critical societal needs for behavioral health services. Accredited programs have been judged to meet standards associated with quality education and training."

Do we know this?
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Of course the APA, the organization that accredited all those Argosy programs in the first place, doesn't have a conflict of interest in making this judgment.

And it's not like the APA could change the criteria for accreditation to remove the financial incentives to leech off of students and graduates through various means as Argosy did.
 
OneNeuroDoctor said:
When Forest was closing I informed my supervisor, a Forest graduate 30-years ago and he had a meltdown started crying and took the rest of the day off. Hopefully they have crisis counselors available as they are surely in shock as in death of loved one.
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When one of my parents died, I calmly told staff I needed to take a couple day. Because... you know... the job requires some emotional control.
 
PSYDR said:
When one of my parents died, I calmly told staff I needed to take a couple day. Because... you know... the job requires some emotional control.
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But those are your parents, I don't think anyone would blame you for crying if/when one of them dies. In this case, we're talking about an abstract corporate entity that this person had not attended in three decades.
 
psych.meout said:
But those are your parents, I don't think anyone would blame you for crying if/when one of them dies. In this case, we're talking about an abstract corporate entity that this person had not attended in three decades.
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Yeah... I know. My point was you’d think a decently trained person could control their emotions. If they’re falling apart for their school closing, then you’d wonder how they controlled their emotions in “bigger” situations.
 
He was in shock and I had supervision at 3 pm so he just left an hour early. He was in his 70’s and retired the next year. He had some mild strokes that year and was more emotional anyway during that period.

My guess is the suddenness of Argosy where faculty are now unemployed and students are without a program, many tears and sadness is happening. Most Argosy students were older students with families and loan money was helping support family during training.
 
Will be interested to see if PCSAS comments on any of this (anyone know if they already have?), in terms of accreditation standards, etc. -- I just checked the APA CoA website, and it looks like some Argosy campuses (like, Phoenix, Minnesota, San Francisco; https://tinyurl.com/y3et3dxj) were reaccredited by APA as recently as 2018 and each of these sites were accredited for 10 years (!!)

10-year reaccreditation intervals are new at APA and are the longest a program can be accredited for. Supposedly deciding how long to accredit an institution depends on "the program’s stage of development and the stability of program outcomes," meaning that APA CoA didn't sense any red flags during their site visits at any of these Argosy campuses as recently as a few months ago.
 
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briarcliff said:
Will be interested to see if PCSAS comments on any of this (anyone know if they already have?), in terms of accreditation standards, etc. -- I just checked the APA CoA website, and it looks like some Argosy campuses (like, Phoenix, Minnesota, San Francisco; https://tinyurl.com/y3et3dxj) were reaccredited by APA as recently as 2018 and each of these sites were accredited for 10 years (!!)

10-year reaccreditation intervals are new at APA and are the longest a program can be accredited for. Supposedly deciding how long to accredit an institution depends on "the program’s stage of development and the stability of program outcomes," meaning that APA CoA didn't sense any red flags during their site visits at any of these Argosy campuses as recently as a few months ago.
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Is it really in the scope of the APA COA tomexamine the financial stability of programs? Should it be? Seems to be outside of the realm of what you should expect from a professional organization/guild.
 
ClinicalABA said:
Is it really in the scope of the APA COA tomexamine the financial stability of programs? Should it be? Seems to be outside of the realm of what you should expect from a professional organization/guild.
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Fair, but maybe this experience should serve as a lesson, particularly with regard to programs with a track record of misrepresentation, recent financial woes, change in "ownership," etc.

I don't know much about accounting, but I imagine that, in general, universities, and especially FSPS, must undergo some sort of third-party financial audit on at least a semi-regular basis. Maybe APA could require access to these financial data as part of their self-study/accreditation process, especially before accrediting a program for a decade. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, especially given that students are making a huge financial leap of faith when deciding where to attend graduate school (e.g., assuming that the time invested will yield adequate return on investment [i.e., a doctoral degree], assuming that the program will still exist in 5-7 years for a doctoral degree to be conferred).

Obviously, financial stability is an important consideration in determining the stability of a program's outcomes, so I think APA has a responsibility to do some due diligence in verifying the financial solvency of the programs they're accrediting -- If we (or maybe just, I) take this to its logical conclusion, I think accrediting bodies have an ethical responsibility to grant accreditation contingent on a program's (e.g., doctoral, internship, postdoc) ability to guarantee funding and financial support for its trainees.
 
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I really think APA should set more stringent standards in regard to dissertation requirements
briarcliff said:
Will be interested to see if PCSAS comments on any of this (anyone know if they already have?), in terms of accreditation standards, etc. -- I just checked the APA CoA website, and it looks like some Argosy campuses (like, Phoenix, Minnesota, San Francisco; https://tinyurl.com/y3et3dxj) were reaccredited by APA as recently as 2018 and each of these sites were accredited for 10 years (!!)

10-year reaccreditation intervals are new at APA and are the longest a program can be accredited for. Supposedly deciding how long to accredit an institution depends on "the program’s stage of development and the stability of program outcomes," meaning that APA CoA didn't sense any red flags during their site visits at any of these Argosy campuses as recently as a few months ago.
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https://www.nsldn.org/blog/nsldn-ob...of-edmc-dream-center-settlement-administrator

When EDMC settled a lawsuit in 2015 the court appointed an administrator to oversee the implementation of the consent decree. This page has all theee reports. Seems DCEH wanted to use the non-profit status to benefit one of its other for-profit setups. Lots of interesting info here about how EDMC had to change its recruitment practice etc.
 
briarcliff said:
Will be interested to see if PCSAS comments on any of this (anyone know if they already have?), in terms of accreditation standards, etc. -- I just checked the APA CoA website, and it looks like some Argosy campuses (like, Phoenix, Minnesota, San Francisco; https://tinyurl.com/y3et3dxj) were reaccredited by APA as recently as 2018 and each of these sites were accredited for 10 years (!!)

10-year reaccreditation intervals are new at APA and are the longest a program can be accredited for. Supposedly deciding how long to accredit an institution depends on "the program’s stage of development and the stability of program outcomes," meaning that APA CoA didn't sense any red flags during their site visits at any of these Argosy campuses as recently as a few months ago.
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APA can’t consider that in accreditation. It can, should, and doesn’t really consider outcomes though.
 
Just heard some news that made me think about something I hadn't considered. A friend of mine knows a "current" Argosy student who is on prac (it's a weird situation; her prac site is far from Argosy because her husband is in the military) . She is now unable to practice because she has no insurance, and I guess the Trust won't allow her to buy insurance bc she is not currently enrolled in a program! CSPP said they will take her, but that won't be at least until May. She had to cancel all her therapy today! It's not just impacting the students.... So much for termination sessions.
 
LadyHalcyon said:
Just heard some news that made me think about something I hadn't considered. A friend of mine knows a "current" Argosy student who is on prac (it's a weird situation; her prac site is far from Argosy because her husband is in the military) . She is now unable to practice because she has no insurance, and I guess the Trust won't allow her to buy insurance bc she is not currently enrolled in a program! CSPP said they will take her, but that won't be at least until May. She had to cancel all her therapy today! It's not just impacting the students.... So much for termination sessions.
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Yikes, that's true - I'm sure there are a lot of clients who are suddenly cut off if they were working with prac students. What a horrible mess.
 
LadyHalcyon said:
Just heard some news that made me think about something I hadn't considered. A friend of mine knows a "current" Argosy student who is on prac (it's a weird situation; her prac site is far from Argosy because her husband is in the military) . She is now unable to practice because she has no insurance, and I guess the Trust won't allow her to buy insurance bc she is not currently enrolled in a program! CSPP said they will take her, but that won't be at least until May. She had to cancel all her therapy today! It's not just impacting the students.... So much for termination sessions.
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Ugh. I didn't even consider access to care, particularly in regard to the likelihood students would be at low/no cost clinics and the clients effected would likely not have good alternative options.
 
LadyHalcyon said:
Just heard some news that made me think about something I hadn't considered. A friend of mine knows a "current" Argosy student who is on prac (it's a weird situation; her prac site is far from Argosy because her husband is in the military) . She is now unable to practice because she has no insurance, and I guess the Trust won't allow her to buy insurance bc she is not currently enrolled in a program! CSPP said they will take her, but that won't be at least until May. She had to cancel all her therapy today! It's not just impacting the students.... So much for termination sessions.
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So when students in this position apply for internships (assuming they can transfer to another program) will the hours from these practicums be accepted or will they not count because of the mess of no program/uninsured?
 
I know for this one specific case she had to cease all therapy immediately, so she won't be accruing anymore hours. I'm wondering if that decision was made by Argosy or her supervisor.....
Spydra said:
So when students in this position apply for internships (assuming they can transfer to another program) will the hours from these practicums be accepted or will they not count because of the mess of no program/uninsured?
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Spydra said:
So when students in this position apply for internships (assuming they can transfer to another program) will the hours from these practicums be accepted or will they not count because of the mess of no program/uninsured?
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There may not be a practicum for them if they cannot be insured. From the info I received, interns from these programs at a VA location are covered under the VS and the program and should be okay. VA externs, it is less clear as they are not covered under the VA blanket covererage. Apparently, people are attempting to sort this out now. I have a feeling that Non-VA based students and interns may have bigger issues with this. I am curious to know if internships will need to be repeated as Chicago School is not transferring these students till May.
 
Sanman said:
I am curious to know if internships will need to be repeated as Chicago School is not transferring these students till May.
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This is something I've been wondering too - for students currently on internship, who are the internship DCTs even communicating with about the interns' progress? Who will they communicate with for next year's interns?
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Ugh. I didn't even consider access to care, particularly in regard to the likelihood students would be at low/no cost clinics and the clients effected would likely not have good alternative options.
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This is why it's really bad practice to rely on practica students to provide critical services. Are these practica students performing direct clinical services independently? Seems to me that any ethical concerns regarding abandonment fall squarely on the licensed supervisor (and there better be a licensed supervisor!).
 
ClinicalABA said:
This is why it's really bad practice to rely on practica students to provide critical services. Are these practica students performing direct clinical services independently? Seems to me that any ethical concerns regarding abandonment fall squarely on the licensed supervisor (and there better be a licensed supervisor!).
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I don't know, I think it would be a disservice to training if students were exclusively in environments providing non-critical clinical services. I agree though that it is ultimately the responsibility of the supervisor, the training director, and the organization to ensure that patients served by these students continue to get necessary services.
 
Yes. They are performing services independently. Obviously they are supervised, but only for an hour per week in group supervision (speaking only about the aforementioned situation).
ClinicalABA said:
This is why it's really bad practice to rely on practica students to provide critical services. Are these practica students performing direct clinical services independently? Seems to me that any ethical concerns regarding abandonment fall squarely on the licensed supervisor (and there better be a licensed supervisor!).
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LadyHalcyon said:
Yes. They are performing services independently. Obviously they are supervised, but only for an hour per week in group supervision (speaking only about the aforementioned situation).
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Only 1 hour per week of group supervision? That's woefully insufficient, especially early in training.
 
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