Asians: ORM= really bad news?

[Shredder]

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Doesn't anyone realize that reporting your race is optional on all applications? If you really think that being Asian/Indian is detrimental to your chances, don't include that info. I should preface this post by saying that this only applies to schools that don't ask for your picture; unless you don't look particularly Asian/Indian, then you have free reign to declare you non-allegiance.

its optional, but whos to say they wont simply place you in the worst category if you decide not to report it. meaning, the asian category, with the highest standard. also, name can often give it away.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

 

[Zuras]

I'm adopted. Funny how no one ever thinks of that. I have two sisters who are asian and a puerto rican brother-- we're all adopted.

3 adopted kids and your father "works at wal-mart?" Yeah, as what? Regional manager?

 

[dilated]

Doesn't anyone realize that reporting your race is optional on all applications? If you really think that being Asian/Indian is detrimental to your chances, don't include that info. I should preface this post by saying that this only applies to schools that don't ask for your picture; unless you don't look particularly Asian/Indian, then you have free reign to declare you non-allegiance.

Actually, I think the point that is being missed here is that (I could be wrong) but I get the impression that the weeding out of excess Asians is done post-interview, not by initial app.

Of course, if there are numbers to disprove this I'll accept that. But I think a lot of it could be less premeditation by adcomms and more "yay, another asian who plays piano who I can't talk football with" thinking on the part of the older white male interviewers.

 

[Zuras]

All Hispanics receive AA, not all receive URM status. Alvarez who is a physics laureate was puerto rican.

Spaniards are not Hispanics. I don't care what your TV tells you.

 

[CTSballer11]

Shredder you made a point earlier in the thread that a lot of asians are nerdy book worms, and that american society looks down at this. I think it is not beneficial to future patients to have a large group of physicians who are hermits, or social misfits. In highschool, there were 20 people in my calc class, 15 asians, 5 white kids (myself included). I did not know one single asian, I did not even know most of them attended the same highschool as me untill I saw these students in calc. These same students did not participate in the things americans take pride in, sports for example. I played football and baseball and I was asked by many of these students why I was wasting my time playing sports since I would never turn professional. I also never saw these kids at homecoming, winterfest, prom. They put studying above all else and that is why so many asians make up a large percentage of a medical school class. This is how it is and how it will continue to be, because the average american student is lazy. Do not flame me as it was not my intention to disrespect anyone here.

 

[Shredder]

Spaniards are not Hispanics. I don't care your TV tells you.

yeah...the distinctions they draw are pretty arbitrary. shouldnt portuguese be counted as hispanic too? or maybe not, i dont know. its all nonsense anyway, the concepts of urms and aa. im pretty sure spaniards dont get any aa, and im skeptical about cubans receiving it. cubans are a relatively successful bunch without having to rely on it.

 

[Shredder]

Shredder you made a point earlier in the thread that a lot of asians are nerdy book worms, and that american society looks down at this. I think it is not beneficial to future patients to have a large group of physicians who are hermits, or social misfits. In highschool, there were 20 people in my calc class, 15 asians, 5 white kids (myself included). I did not know one single asian, I did not even know most of them attended the same highschool as me untill I saw these students in calc. These same students did not participate in the things americans take pride in, sports for example. I played football and baseball and I was asked by many of these students why I was wasting my time playing sports since I would never turn professional. I also never saw these kids at homecoming, winterfest, prom. They put studying above all else and that is why so many asians make up a large percentage of a medical school class. This is how it is and how it will continue to be, because the average american student is lazy. Do not flame me as it was not my intention to disrespect anyone here.

im confused. in due time the indian and chinese economies are destined to rocket ahead of the usa. the usa just got a head start with free markets, but now others are catching on. japan wouldve been far ahead of us if it werent so small and isolated. id rather have a nerdy doc than one who played high school football and hosts smashing super bowl parties, and was prom king. american students are lazy, and eventually it will catch up to american society. i dont know what you were referring to about the nerdiness, but if i appeared to be condeming it i was being sarcastic. im all for nerdiness.

 

[Camillekc]

Shredder you made a point earlier in the thread that a lot of asians are nerdy book worms, and that american society looks down at this. I think it is not beneficial to future patients to have a large group of physicians who are hermits, or social misfits. In highschool, there were 20 people in my calc class, 15 asians, 5 white kids (myself included). I did not know one single asian, I did not even know most of them attended the same highschool as me untill I saw these students in calc. These same students did not participate in the things americans take pride in, sports for example. I played football and baseball and I was asked by many of these students why I was wasting my time playing sports since I would never turn professional. I also never saw these kids at homecoming, winterfest, prom. They put studying above all else and that is why so many asians make up a large percentage of a medical school class. This is how it is and how it will continue to be, because the average american student is lazy. Do not flame me as it was not my intention to disrespect anyone here.

So I'm not going to touch the rest of this because it actually makes my soul hurt, and hopefully someone else will, but where do "you people" come from (rhetorical, I don't actually care) that you haven't figured out that asian heritage and "american" are not mutually exclusive?

And please, if you and people of the same ideology about people I'm sure you considered 'foreigners' were at homecoming, prom, or sports games, I'd stay the hell away too.

Just because it wasn't your intention to disrespect anyone, doesn't mean you haven't.

 

[Zuras]

Average asian applicant:
28.3 MCAT/ 3.47 GPA
Average white applicant
28.3 MCAT/ 3.53 GPA
Average asian matriculant:
31.1 MCAT/3.65 GPA
Average white matriculant:
30.5 MCAT/ 3.66 GPA

 

[Shredder]

So I'm not going to touch the rest of this because it actually makes my soul hurt, and hopefully someone else will, but where do "you people" come from (rhetorical, I don't actually care) that you haven't figured out that asian heritage and "american" are not mutually exclusive?

And please, if you and people of the same ideology about people I'm sure you considered 'foreigners' were at homecoming, prom, or sports games, I'd stay the hell away too.

Just because it wasn't your intention to disrespect anyone, doesn't mean you haven't.

wow, soul pain? why so touchy, who cares? self assurance makes you invincible to pain.

btw i knew asians who were kickass in academics, sports, and socializing, including homecoming queen etc. indians and asians are just amazing and highly successful people. the antisocial, nerdiness was a lame label by lesser ppl who wanted to make themselves feel better, just like elementary school days and apparently all the way up to now. generally speaking--not pointing fingers

 

[CTSballer11]

So I'm not going to touch the rest of this because it actually makes my soul hurt, and hopefully someone else will, but where do "you people" come from (rhetorical, I don't actually care) that you haven't figured out that asian heritage and "american" are not mutually exclusive?

And please, if you and people of the same ideology about people I'm sure you considered 'foreigners' were at homecoming, prom, or sports games, I'd stay the hell away too.

Just because it wasn't your intention to disrespect anyone, doesn't mean you haven't.

I am a first generation american, my parents are both european immigrants. I was merely trying to make the point that the asian culture puts academic success above all else and that is why asians are dominating the medical profession. I am not racist and I did not mean to come across mean. I could have worded my argument better. Again, My bad.

 

[Shredder]

I am a first generation american, my parents are both european immigrants. I was merely trying to make the point that the asian culture puts academic success above all else and that is why asians are dominating the medical profession. I am not racist and I did not mean to come across mean. I could have worded my argument better. Again, My bad.

what else is supposed to be put above all else? sometimes people say "happiness", but i think in the long run the two go hand in hand. sometimes asians kill themselves, but thats mostly in foreign countries, and they rarely complain of depression, insomnia, or what have you.

 

[radioh3ad]

this thread is getting out of hand. you pretentious bastards (specifics, not everyone)think you understand Asian culture? gtfo and fyad

the asian population is rising, with this rise there will be later generations of our people. before it was the chinese that excelled at everything academic. before us it was the jews. now it's the koreans, southeast asians and indians.

why? because our people came to this country to succeed. that was what america represented. as an ethnicity becomes more home-grown american it's demographics will start to resemble the typical white american. case in point, my high school was 30% asian and a greater percentage of the football team was asian. almost the entire volleyball team was asian. my senior year home-coming queen, prom king, our class president = oriental asian. yet we were still minorities.

we got sports, we got class, and we got the academics. but the nerd archetype is all that people see. harold and kumar, better luck tomorrow, though they tried to help explain asian-american culture, only made things worse i think. but things take time (i.e. white people's views of black america)

 

[SDNtheone]

whoa!! I did not mean to hurt any feelings!! I was just pointing out the facts. Why is it racist to say you asians have taken over medicine??? or that most asians who have the slightest potential to make it in med will at least give it a shot?? Or that we whites win the nobel prizes??? I mean in my schools chem and physcis and math and engineering department it is filled with asians and I wonder why they are not making all these great discoveries??? And let me make somethig clear... there are very few poor asians in America... Most asians that come here even if they are poor will work with other asians and get a business(I guess they call that in group solidarity).

I dont get SDN... People saw hateful stuff all day but when I say the truth people start crying.

 

[radioh3ad]

whoa!! I did not mean to hurt any feelings!! I was just pointing out the facts. Why is it racist to say you asians have taken over medicine??? or that most asians who have the slightest potential to make it in med will at least give it a shot?? Or that we whites win the nobel prizes??? I mean in my schools chem and physcis and math and engineering department it is filled with asians and I wonder why they are not making all these great discoveries??? And let me make somethig clear... there are very few poor asians in America... Most asians that come here even if they are poor will work with other asians and get a business(I guess they call that in group solidarity).

I dont get SDN... People saw hateful stuff all day but when I say the truth people start crying.

i love how you take yourself seriously. spot on. spot on.

 

[Shredder]

whoa!! I did not mean to hurt any feelings!! I was just pointing out the facts. Why is it racist to say you asians have taken over medicine??? or that most asians who have the slightest potential to make it in med will at least give it a shot?? Or that we whites win the nobel prizes??? I mean in my schools chem and physcis and math and engineering department it is filled with asians and I wonder why they are not making all these great discoveries??? And let me make somethig clear... there are very few poor asians in America... Most asians that come here even if they are poor will work with other asians and get a business(I guess they call that in group solidarity).

I dont get SDN... People saw hateful stuff all day but when I say the truth people start crying.

asians do have a tendency to get stuck working as eternal post docs under anglo PIs, or in lowly academic positions. but nonetheless they also win nobel prizes. there are very few poor asians, they work hard and ensure that they will not fall into poverty or govt subsidy, or aa.

 

[CTSballer11]

what else is supposed to be put above all else? sometimes people say "happiness", but i think in the long run the two go hand in hand. sometimes asians kill themselves, but thats mostly in foreign countries, and they rarely complain of depression, insomnia, or what have you.

I am not arguing with you despite the tone of my previous few posts. I do not know to many happy people making 40k a yr with one year of vacation. My father came to this country when he was 17 without a dollar in his pocket. He worked his way through college and graduated in the top one percent of his class at columbia, engineering major. He also worked a 9-5 job while getting his masters there. When you are poor it is hard to be "happy".

 

[Shredder]

I am not arguing with you despite the tone of my previous few posts. I do not know to many happy people making 40k a yr with one year of vacation. My father came to this country when he was 17 without a dollar in his pocket. He worked his way through college and graduated in the top one percent of his class at columbia, engineering major. He also worked a 9-5 job while getting his masters there. When you are poor it is hard to be "happy".

yeah, one notices that its only the poor who say money cant buy happiness. or that money is the root of all evil. thats awesome your dad, like mark burnett who made my tv show. leverage columbia legacy power.

 

[CTSballer11]

this thread is getting out of hand. you pretentious bastards (specifics, not everyone)think you understand Asian culture? gtfo and fyad

the asian population is rising, with this rise there will be later generations of our people. before it was the chinese that excelled at everything academic. before us it was the jews. now it's the koreans, southeast asians and indians.

why? because our people came to this country to succeed. that was what america represented. as an ethnicity becomes more home-grown american it's demographics will start to resemble the typical white american. case in point, my high school was 30% asian and a greater percentage of the football team was asian. almost the entire volleyball team was asian. my senior year home-coming queen, prom king, our class president = oriental asian. yet we were still minorities.

we got sports, we got class, and we got the academics. but the nerd archetype is all that people see. harold and kumar, better luck tomorrow, though they tried to help explain asian-american culture, only made things worse i think. but things take time (i.e. white people's views of black america)

My highschool experience was different. The asians only socialized with in there own clique. I was not dissing asians, I was only saying that asians are taking control of the medical field. They work hard and it pays off.

 

[Camillekc]

wow, soul pain? why so touchy, who cares? self assurance makes you invincible to pain.

The part of my soul that hopes that the us vs. them mentality is fading, that people will eventually see past skin color and that the stereotypes will be forgotten (although to be clear, I have nothing against unbiased cultural analysis). That's the part that hurts reading stuff like this.

I'm curious- I live in NYC and Toronto- do you think these attitudes are more prevalent outside major cities, or off the east coast?

 

[SDNtheone]

asians do have a tendency to get stuck working as eternal post docs under anglo PIs, or in lowly academic positions. but nonetheless they also win nobel prizes. there are very few poor asians, they work hard and ensure that they will not fall into poverty or govt subsidy, or aa.

man you are dumb... AA is not a policy given to the poor it is given to the underrepresented and, most countrys with a diverse population practice it....

also if asians were so great why are they not number one in the world... Why are we whites still number 1??I will tell you why??Thinking out of the box, being well rounded, keep in mind that most scientist of old were not making the ultimate sacrifice like you guys... Their talent and ability to find things came naturally.. These days most of these guys are weeded out of the sciences b/c they are not willing to waste their whole weekend in a lab while you guys will gladly do it...

 

[radioh3ad]

yeah, one notices that its only the poor who say money cant buy happiness. or that money is the root of all evil. thats awesome your dad, like mark burnett who made my tv show. leverage columbia legacy power.

you truly epitomize your avatar

 

[SDNtheone]

The part of my soul that hopes that the us vs. them mentality is fading, that people will eventually see past skin color and that the stereotypes will be forgotten (although to be clear, I have nothing against unbiased cultural analysis). That's the part that hurts reading stuff like this.

I'm curious- I live in NYC and Toronto- do you think these attitudes are more prevalent outside major cities, or off the east coast?

Go to your schools library right now... On a summer day in august and I bet you even this late at night the library will be packed with asians(if it is open)

 

[radioh3ad]

man you are dumb... AA is not a policy given to the poor it is given to the underrepresented and, most countrys with a diverse population practice it....

also if asians were so great why are they not number one in the world... Why are we whites still number 1??I will tell you why??Thinking out of the box, being well rounded, keep in mind that most scientist of old were not making the ultimate sacrifice like you guys... Their talent and ability to find things came naturally.. These days most of these guys are weeded out of the sciences b/c they are not willing to waste their whole weekend in a lab while you guys will gladly do it...

are you a bitter undergrad who didnt do too hot cuz you went out and partied? too bad. there are those who work hard and party hard. including asians, blacks, hispanics and whites. maybe you should just hate on successful students in general.

 

[CTSballer11]

yeah, one notices that its only the poor who say money cant buy happiness. or that money is the root of all evil. thats awesome your dad, like mark burnett who made my tv show. leverage columbia legacy power.

I have found it to be the other way around. My dad thinks money is everything, and he becomes really irritated when people tell him otherwise. When you are really poor money is everything.

 

[Shredder]

man you are dumb... AA is not a policy given to the poor it is given to the underrepresented and, most countrys with a diverse population practice it....

also if asians were so great why are they not number one in the world... Why are we whites still number 1??I will tell you why??Thinking out of the box, being well rounded, keep in mind that most scientist of old were not making the ultimate sacrifice like you guys... Their talent and ability to find things came naturally.. These days most of these guys are weeded out of the sciences b/c they are not willing to waste their whole weekend in a lab while you guys will gladly do it...

i must admit, anglos have done a damn good job of taking over and running the world, imperialism like. not to mention the country--they dominate politics, and big business. sadly they go to lab happy hour while the asians run the pcrs. is AA a conspiracy to subdue asians?? whats the real reason behind aa, behind all the political gibberish

 

[radioh3ad]

sadly they go to lab happy hour while the asians run the pcrs.

yes. this happens everywhere. 🙁

 

[Shredder]

I have found it to be the other way around. My dad thinks money is everything, and he becomes really irritated when people tell him otherwise. When you are really poor money is everything.

hmm, is that stated properly? when youre dirt poor then you realize the value of money, but when you hit the middle class you start saying money isnt everything, as a defense mechanism. then when you reach the top you again appreciate the powers of money, having amassed it. 2 cents!

 

[CTSballer11]

yea the columbia legacy is nice, I decided not attend there undergrad, tuition is just to expensive.

 

[tank you]

hmm, is that stated properly? when youre dirt poor then you realize the value of money, but when you hit the middle class you start saying money isnt everything, as a defense mechanism. then when you reach the top you again appreciate the powers of money, having amassed it. 2 cents!

i think i speak for all indian parents when i say "money is everything!"

 

[SDNtheone]

i must admit, anglos have done a damn good job of taking over and running the world, imperialism like. not to mention the country--they dominate politics, and big business. sadly they go to lab happy hour while the asians run the pcrs. is AA a conspiracy to subdue asians?? whats the real reason behind aa, behind all the political gibberish

If it is it obviously ain't working since you guys are taking over...And looking at your profile you seem to be the "typical asian" engineering major... Let me guess like a lot of indian men I have met you are interested in medicine and business... 🙂

 

[KevinZ]

Wow...lots of assertions, very few real implications.

1) The Noble Prize argument lacks foundation. First, there are so few Noble Prize winners that it's hard to get a representative sample to make broad assertions. Second, there are cultural differences that would influence the value of innovation placed in a society. If you read cultural psychology (Kitayama, Marcus, or Nisbett), you'll realize that social factors and what's encouraged in various cultures are different. The argument is ignorant at best, racist at worst.

2) Asians are not all bookworms. If they were, they wouldn't be getting into medical school in the first place. Extracurriculars, clinical experience, and leadership positions aren't generally given to anti-social kids. You earn it. Also, it's pretty difficult for bookworms to survive an hour-long interview without giving it away.

3) Some arguments are making it sound like Asians were raised rich and well-off. Please watch these generalizations. I'm Chinese and lived for 8 years in poverty. My family was also too proud to ask for welfare and struggled daily with language barriers. If I get into medical school this year, it wasn't because I've always gotten everything I asked for because daddy's a rich physicist.

The bottom line is this: Every cultural/racial group has its outliers or subgroups that reflect poorly on the whole.

If you want to call Asians bookworms based on the small sample you've seen, I can just as easily call whites "guys with Confederate Flags on old pickup trucks." Accurate? Not even close, so let's watch the conclusions we draw from not seeing the whole picture.

 

[Shredder]

yes. this happens everywhere. 🙁

i know...asians have a pretty passive and submissive mentality and things like this happen. but the girls are also submissive and docile...jk there! asians havent been able to summon that domineering mindset that has given rise to anglo imperialism and leadership

 

[radioh3ad]

yea the columbia legacy is nice, I decided not attend there undergrad, tuition is just to expensive.

very interesting. where did you go to undergrad then, since you had a choice? and was your father supportive of your denial to columbia?

 

[Shredder]

i think i speak for all indian parents when i say "money is everything!"

as many indian parents saw the destitute conditions in india, they understand moneys importance. a funny line ive heard is that this is the only country where the poorest folks are fat.

 

[tank you]

as many indian parents saw the destitute conditions in india, they understand moneys importance. a funny line ive heard is that this is the only country where the poorest folks are fat.

i don't think its just because of that, maybe the drive for success and power had something to do with it, and they just chose a career that pays well...

 

[CTSballer11]

hmm, is that stated properly? when youre dirt poor then you realize the value of money, but when you hit the middle class you start saying money isnt everything, as a defense mechanism. then when you reach the top you again appreciate the powers of money, having amassed it. 2 cents!

Exactly! My dad always lectures me about the value of money etc. The middle class people I know are content with being mediocre because they live a comfortable life and never had to face the hardships the poor had to. When you are at the top and you have made the money, you do not want to relinquish it.

 

[radioh3ad]

i know...asians have a pretty passive and submissive mentality and things like this happen. but the girls are also submissive and docile...jk there! asians havent been able to summon that domineering mindset that has given rise to anglo imperialism and leadership

it's coming. right now, asian girls are the trophies. 😛 we asian men will get there.

 

[riceman04]

man you are dumb... AA is not a policy given to the poor it is given to the underrepresented and, most countrys with a diverse population practice it....

also if asians were so great why are they not number one in the world... Why are we whites still number 1??I will tell you why??Thinking out of the box, being well rounded, keep in mind that most scientist of old were not making the ultimate sacrifice like you guys... Their talent and ability to find things came naturally.. These days most of these guys are weeded out of the sciences b/c they are not willing to waste their whole weekend in a lab while you guys will gladly do it...

That's true sort of....but what about imperialism? Um...dawg......white people did much more than just think outside the box.....They enslaved all over the world....yes, pursed education and rationality in their own eyes...but at the same time they mangled others. That's the truth!

 

[Shredder]

i don't think its just because of that, maybe the drive for success and power had something to do with it, and they just chose a career that pays well...

yeah...quite a few indians go into business. and ive never heard any of my relatives of family friends speak of entering medicine to help ppl or anything like that. the question is never even asked.

 

[CTSballer11]

hmm, is that stated properly? when youre dirt poor then you realize the value of money, but when you hit the middle class you start saying money isnt everything, as a defense mechanism. then when you reach the top you again appreciate the powers of money, having amassed it. 2 cents!

Exactly! My dad always lectures me about the value of money etc. The middle class people I know are content with being mediocre because they live a comfortable life and never had to face the hardships the poor had to. When you are at the top and you have made the money, you do not want to relinquish it. Thus in my opinion why the IVY's place a high value on legacy, and why politicians even though they may have opposing view points they are usually friends behind the scenes.

 

[SDNtheone]

That's true sort of....but what about imperialism? Um...dawg......white people did much more than just think outside the box.....They enslaved all over the world....yes, pursed education and rationality in their own eyes...but at the same time they mangled others. That's the truth!

Enslaving others had nothing to do with OUR success... It may have had something to do with their success (lack of that is)but not ours... We did indeed think out of the box.. Open your science books and start reading what do you find... Good white men have worked hard and found a lot of great info for others to memorize till 5 Am in the library 🙂 .

 

[tank you]

yeah...quite a few indians go into business. and ive never heard any of my relatives of family friends speak of entering medicine to help ppl or anything like that. the question is never even asked.

well, its a good thing the adcoms dont know that indians dont have an altruistic bone in their body 😛 jk, we help others, but only when we benefit from it, hehe.

 

[riceman04]

Wow...lots of assertions, very few real implications.

1) The Noble Prize argument lacks foundation. First, there are so few Noble Prize winners that it's hard to get a representative sample to make broad assertions. Second, there are cultural differences that would influence the value of innovation placed in a society. If you read cultural psychology (Kitayama, Marcus, or Nisbett), you'll realize that social factors and what's encouraged in various cultures are different. The argument is ignorant at best, racist at worst.

2) Asians are not all bookworms. If they were, they wouldn't be getting into medical school in the first place. Extracurriculars, clinical experience, and leadership positions aren't generally given to anti-social kids. You earn it. Also, it's pretty difficult for bookworms to survive an hour-long interview without giving it away.

3) Some arguments are making it sound like Asians were raised rich and well-off. Please watch these generalizations. I'm Chinese and lived for 8 years in poverty. My family was also too proud to ask for welfare and struggled daily with language barriers. If I get into medical school this year, it wasn't because I've always gotten everything I asked for because daddy's a rich physicist.

The bottom line is this: Every cultural/racial group has its outliers or subgroups that reflect poorly on the whole.

If you want to call Asians bookworms based on the small sample you've seen, I can just as easily call whites "guys with Confederate Flags on old pickup trucks." Accurate? Not even close, so let's watch the conclusions we draw from not seeing the whole picture.

Hey dont forget about the shotguns and white robes, hoods, and masks in the back of trucks too! 😀 😀

 

[Shredder]

enslavement is a historical motif

 

[Shredder]

well, its a good thing the adcoms dont know that indians dont have an altruistic bone in their body 😛 jk, we help others, but only when we benefit from it, hehe.

so too with everybody in some roundabout form or fashion, but at least we admit it

 

[SDNtheone]

man I dont get it! When I speak a little bit of truth everyone thinks I am racist. I blame this on the elite liberals who are taking america down. The politics have gotten so bad that no one can even say the truth anymore

 

[Zuras]

Hey dont forget about the shotguns and white robes, hoods, and masks in the back of trucks too! 😀 😀

Every post I've seen of yours has some kind of race bend. You must live a tortured existence.

 

[riceman04]

Enslaving others had nothing to do with OUR success... It may have had something to do with their success (lack of that is)but not ours... We did indeed think out of the box.. Open your science books and start reading what do you find... Good white men have worked hard and found a lot of great info for others to memorize till 5 Am in the library 🙂 .

No one said europeans (I like that word better) did not think outside of the box....I just said that while doing so they were also ensuring their domination over other cultures.

And enslaving others did have alot to do with your success....Honestly, I cannot have any hard feelings about it b/c everyone did it. When people are enslaved, they are oppressed in many ways....one being the prevention of applicating ideas that may lead to overall progress for that ethnic group. "Divide and conquer in all facets".....that's a phrase used by many Afrikaans during apartheid.