Ask LizzyM Anything 2013 edition

[LizzyM]

How often does a dean override a recommendation made by reviewers pre-interview (like will give an interview invite to someone who was given a yes and a no or two no's)? If so, why does that happen? Is it because the dean saw something that the other reviewers didn't?

@smarts1
It happens rarely. Usually because there is a reason known to the Dean and perhaps not shared with us as to why that person needs to be interviewed.

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[smarts1]

So then when the adcom reviews applicants post-interview, do they see all the commentary made pre-interview by the reviewers and whether the applicant was given two yesses?

 

[Lucca]

Not exactly "make up" but it will improve your GPA, right?
See page 7 of this amazing resource I just discovered today
https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

This is such a useful resource, thank you very much for this. The pages on Step 1/Graduation rate based on GPA/MCAT could be referenced in like a million threads here on SDN.

 

[LizzyM]

So then when the adcom reviews applicants post-interview, do they see all the commentary made pre-interview by the reviewers and whether the applicant was given two yesses?

@smarts1
Yes, they do. You are a smart one to ask that question.

 

[LizzyM]

This is such a useful resource, thank you very much for this. The pages on Step 1/Graduation rate based on GPA/MCAT could be referenced in like a million threads here on SDN.

@Arcumis
I know! It's like I can take the next year off!

 

[shoopshoop]

What do adcoms think of an applicant who has been doing research for two years including summers but does not have a publication or something of that sort?

 

[LACMA]

@LACMA
1) check with the schools you intend to apply to. You may have to go elsewhere (in the summer, maybe) to take the Physics II lab. Does your school have a premed office? What advice does the school have on this matter? Hasn't anyone at your school been premed? (Maybe your school has a consortium arrangement with a neighboring school?)
2) There really isn't a good way to say "I could have done better". You do have a chance to list how you paid for school and I have sometime noted where students had large merit aid or need based aid at a lower tier school that they might have been motivated by financial considerations in choosing to attend where they did. the only way to counteract where you are is to do as well as you possibly can and rock the MCAT when the time comes. An exceptional MCAT score shuts up the critics.

My school has physics II lab, not physics I lab. Every medical school's website that I look at either says no lab requirement or "must include appropriate laboratory work" or next to "one year physics requirement" it says "with lab included" Could you please explain what that means? Does that specify that they want 1 whole year?

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this

 

[Goro]

It's not a problem. It's rare for some UG students to get a publication. Heck, it's hard enough for grad students and post-docs!

What do adcoms think of an applicant who has been doing research for two years including summers but does not have a publication or something of that sort?

 

[Kalydeco]

Hi LizzyM,

Thanks for this terrific service you provide. As an applicant waiting to hear back from several schools in March, I can't help but wonder what's going on behind closed doors when adcoms are discussing my application.

Could you provide an example of the back-and-forth as an application is discussed post-interview (ideally, for a contentious application)? It would be particularly interesting if you could furnish an actual applicant (anonymized of course) as an example. Failing that, even a contrived "discussion" about a composite applicant would be neat. What were some points of contention at the post-interview meeting? What eventually tips the scale toward admission or rejection (or waitlist placement)? Are updates ever decisive?

I've also heard of a few schools that employ voting schemes after the interview. The adcom discusses an application, then all members of the adcom vote and the scores are averaged. All applicants are then ranked and the top X applicants are accepted, then the next X are waitlisted and the next X are rejected. Is that generally how it works at your school? What else goes into the process?

Finally, I have one more point of curiosity -- are there ever applicants that have good interviews but are still pretty easy rejections by the committee? What do those applicants look like? Why were they offered interviews in the first place, if their applications are so easily dismissed after the interview?

Thanks again!

 

[SolarPower]

LizzyM, Thank you for making this thread! It's very interesting to read the variety of questions and see what you have to say.

Due to financial reasons, I spent the first couple years doing coursework at a community college, then transferred to top 10 public university. Unfortunately, I had a lot of family issues arise during my junior year, (death in the family, parent lost job in middle of the year, so I had to pay for school, etc.) and my GPA for that year was negatively impacted (<3.4). I'm doing well in my senior year and should end up with around a 3.7 for both science and cumulative GPA.

How much would that junior year GPA dip impact my application if my senior year and overall GPA's are ok?

 

[LizzyM]

What do adcoms think of an applicant who has been doing research for two years including summers but does not have a publication or something of that sort?

@shoopshoop
Well, they might wonder if something is in the works. That question might be asked at interview. pre-interview someone might look at the PI letter, committee letter and/or description in AMCAS to get an idea of the level of work the applicant has done. Maybe washing dishes doesn't get you a publication and if that's the level of your involvement it won't be as impressive as a higher level, intellectually, with the work.

 

[LizzyM]

My school has physics II lab, not physics I lab. Every medical school's website that I look at either says no lab requirement or "must include appropriate laboratory work" or next to "one year physics requirement" it says "with lab included" Could you please explain what that means? Does that specify that they want 1 whole year?

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this

@LACMA
How should I know what these schools want? Ask them in an email if what your school offers is sufficient or if you need to find Physics I lab somewhere.

 

[DokterMom]

Any advice on interpreting mission statements?
Do schools list their objectives/priorities in order from highest to lowest?
@karayaa
I have no idea! Those things are a bear to write (beware anything written by committee) and I doubt that you can read anything into them aside from taking what is there at face value.

Corollary question to the above regarding mission statements:

How closely do you think your own school's mission statement corollates to the qualities you look for in applicants? In other words, does a student who truly fits your 'official mission statement' reflect the qualities the AdCom really values at the end of the day? Or are there significant, perhaps unspoken selection factors you use that aren't part of the mission statement? How much of the mission statement is just plain 'spin'?

 

[slopes23]

@LizzyM
Will be applying for the first time this upcoming cycle for the first time after taking a gap year this year. My question is, how would it be viewed if I did research starting summer of Freshman-Sophomore year, and continued it for the next 2 years (full time in summers, and 15 hours a week during semesters) which restricted my ability to do other things significantly. This lead to me not being involved long term in any volunteer activities, or shadowing. I did shadowing and volunteer during winter & spring breaksand was a premed peer mentor, and a biology peer adviser. Now in my gap year, I am volunteering 8 hrs/week as well as studying for my MCAT, and working as a physician scribe but am concerned it looks like padding or too little too late. Would working so much at the lab be a good enough reason to be light on other things during those times, or is it seen as a poor excuse? FWIW I ended up creating and presenting a poster at a regional minority conference for neuroscience, and have what I have been told by my Pre-med adviser an amazing letter of recommendation from my PI.

 

[karayaa]

Is it normal/acceptable to call/email admissions offices and ask them the types of questions we're asking you?

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

Thanks for this terrific service you provide. As an applicant waiting to hear back from several schools in March, I can't help but wonder what's going on behind closed doors when adcoms are discussing my application.

Could you provide an example of the back-and-forth as an application is discussed post-interview (ideally, for a contentious application)? It would be particularly interesting if you could furnish an actual applicant (anonymized of course) as an example. Failing that, even a contrived "discussion" about a composite applicant would be neat. What were some points of contention at the post-interview meeting? What eventually tips the scale toward admission or rejection (or waitlist placement)? Are updates ever decisive?

I've also heard of a few schools that employ voting schemes after the interview. The adcom discusses an application, then all members of the adcom vote and the scores are averaged. All applicants are then ranked and the top X applicants are accepted, then the next X are waitlisted and the next X are rejected. Is that generally how it works at your school? What else goes into the process?

Finally, I have one more point of curiosity -- are there ever applicants that have good interviews but are still pretty easy rejections by the committee? What do those applicants look like? Why were they offered interviews in the first place, if their applications are so easily dismissed after the interview?

Thanks again!

@Kalydeco
Oh that's like asking what happens when CIA director John Brennan sits down with Secretary of State John Kerry, Obama and Biden. It is very confidential. That said, those who favor admission point out all the positives of the application including the interview and say, "high risk, high reward". Those who opposes point out all the negatives in the application and interview and say "high risk high reward" with an emphasis on the "high risk". Then someone says, "Are we setting them up to fail?" Then someone offers an anecdote from a past cycle to make the point that such a student can do well. Another person points out the resources available to help such a student. In the end their is a show of hands -- usually between admit or waitlist. Those that could not ever, ever be admitted after having been good enough to interview are usually easier to discuss.

Updates don't matter to the adcom but can influence who gets off the waitlist.


What you've heard about voting schemes is accurate but there can still be discussion after people are ranked.

It is very rare but it can happen that someone who is not really in our ballpark gets an interview because they are the super-connected but not well qualified. We resist making those interview invites but if we make one, we could get into a heated discussion (see above) and end up admitting or declining or waitlisting.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, Thank you for making this thread! It's very interesting to read the variety of questions and see what you have to say.

Due to financial reasons, I spent the first couple years doing coursework at a community college, then transferred to top 10 public university. Unfortunately, I had a lot of family issues arise during my junior year, (death in the family, parent lost job in middle of the year, so I had to pay for school, etc.) and my GPA for that year was negatively impacted (<3.4). I'm doing well in my senior year and should end up with around a 3.7 for both science and cumulative GPA.

How much would that junior year GPA dip impact my application if my senior year and overall GPA's are ok?

@SolarPower
Well, it won't help. You might find a way to work it into your PS or into a big challenges secondary question. I think that otherwise the assumption will be that you took a big hit becoming adjusted to the university after your transfer.

 

[shoopshoop]

@shoopshoop
Well, they might wonder if something is in the works. That question might be asked at interview. pre-interview someone might look at the PI letter, committee letter and/or description in AMCAS to get an idea of the level of work the applicant has done. Maybe washing dishes doesn't get you a publication and if that's the level of your involvement it won't be as impressive as a higher level, intellectually, with the work.

Would this be helped/worsened by the fact that the research is not traditional bench research? It is biophysics, but more computational and simulation oriented and is run by a physics professor. It is super interesting and pretty biologically relevant but I worry that med schools will not look on it as favorably as traditional wet labs.

 

[plumazul]

@LizzyM,
I will be living my dream and starting an MSTP this summer with the goal of a long career in translational/basic research as a physician scientist. I also want a family. As a woman, and a professional yourself, do you believe a woman can have it all?

 

[LizzyM]

Corollary question to the above regarding mission statements:

How closely do you think your own school's mission statement corollates to the qualities you look for in applicants? In other words, does a student who truly fits your 'official mission statement' reflect the qualities the AdCom really values at the end of the day? Or are there significant, perhaps unspoken selection factors you use that aren't part of the mission statement? How much of the mission statement is just plain 'spin'?

@DokterMom
I've never even seen my med schools mission statement and if I have, I haven't given it much thought. lol
So, I just looked for it and couldn't find it. So, there you have it!

 

[americandragon]

Thank you again for answering my questions Lizzy! As a first gen immigrant applicant, I am forever indebted to your advice.

1. I will be 3.5 years out of college by the time I submit my application this coming June (graduated my undergrad in the winter of 2010). Therefore, I plan to take a single upper-div bio course this upcoming spring quarter in order to demonstrate my ability to tackle recent coursework. Do you think one course is enough? I am not taking it so much for grade repair as I have a 3.6 GPA / 3.5 science GPA and a 35 MCAT taken in 2013. I am simply taking it to demonstrate recent coursework to medical schools. Do you know if it makes a significant difference if I take two courses this spring quarter? I ask because I have a full time job and extension courses are so expensive.

2. After this upcoming winter quarter, do you recommend I take classes this spring quarter as well? even though I would submit my AMCAS application before I could get an official transcript reflecting my spring quarter grades. Or do schools not care about an upper-div bio grades after application submission and I would just be wasting money.

3. Is recent coursework at two different online colleges (UC Berkeley extension and UCLA extension) acceptable? I've taken so many upper division biology classes that I could only find one upper div bio class from each of these institutions that does not seem too similar to courses I've already done.

4. Also, what do you think of taking these UC online classes for recent coursework in lieu of brick and mortar institutions?

5. You also previously mentioned to another poster that schools without premed committees are at a disadvantage when it comes to recommendation letters, but since I've heard that applicants are compared relative to other applicants from that same school, does that mitigate some concern?

Thank you again LizzyM!!

 

[LizzyM]

@LizzyM
Will be applying for the first time this upcoming cycle for the first time after taking a gap year this year. My question is, how would it be viewed if I did research starting summer of Freshman-Sophomore year, and continued it for the next 2 years (full time in summers, and 15 hours a week during semesters) which restricted my ability to do other things significantly. This lead to me not being involved long term in any volunteer activities, or shadowing. I did shadowing and volunteer during winter & spring breaksand was a premed peer mentor, and a biology peer adviser. Now in my gap year, I am volunteering 8 hrs/week as well as studying for my MCAT, and working as a physician scribe but am concerned it looks like padding or too little too late. Would working so much at the lab be a good enough reason to be light on other things during those times, or is it seen as a poor excuse? FWIW I ended up creating and presenting a poster at a regional minority conference for neuroscience, and have what I have been told by my Pre-med adviser an amazing letter of recommendation from my PI.

"how would it be viewed if I did..." isn't that a hypothetical question? Do you mean to say, "how will it be viewed given that I did ..."
Other people manage to "do it all". You didn't. Making up for it during a gap year can help. Not having applied once with a substandard application and then applying again is also a plus.

 

[Calad]

Hi LizzyM, thanks for doing this.

I am a non-trad, who graduated in 2009, took 16 credits of post-bac courses in 2011, and am now looking to start up with applications. I have to study for and take the MCAT this year, as well as take a Biochemistry course since it is a pre-req at many schools. Throughout my undergrad and my post-bac I did not have a lot of contact with my professors and did not seek out any letters of recommendation. I intend to be very involved in the next course I take since I know I need at least one LOR from a science professor, but generally how are LORs considered for those who have been mostly out of school for the past 5 years? I could perhaps try and talk to the pre-med advisor at my alma matter to see if I am still capable of getting some sort of committee letter but I won't hold my breath. What are the more realistic options I have as far as LORs are concerned to be a viable candidate?

Thanks again!

 

[LizzyM]

Is it normal/acceptable to call/email admissions offices and ask them the types of questions we're asking you?

@karayaa
Depends on the question.
It is certainly reasonable to ask what one should do if the college offers only one semester of physics lab rather than a full year. Some of these other questions are pretty silly, but fun here among friends.

 

[slopes23]

"how would it be viewed if I did..." isn't that a hypothetical question? Do you mean to say, "how will it be viewed given that I did ..."
Other people manage to "do it all". You didn't. Making up for it during a gap year can help. Not having applied once with a substandard application and then applying again is also a plus.

I appreciate the feedback.

Thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's questions.

 

[LizzyM]

Would this be helped/worsened by the fact that the research is not traditional bench research? It is biophysics, but more computational and simulation oriented and is run by a physics professor. It is super interesting and pretty biologically relevant but I worry that med schools will not look on it as favorably as traditional wet labs.

@shoopshoop
That's interesting. You can do your best to explain the work (mark it as one of your 3 most significant and explain the heck out of it). Your PI's letter can help too.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM, thanks for doing this.

I am a non-trad, who graduated in 2009, took 16 credits of post-bac courses in 2011, and am now looking to start up with applications. I have to study for and take the MCAT this year, as well as take a Biochemistry course since it is a pre-req at many schools. Throughout my undergrad and my post-bac I did not have a lot of contact with my professors and did not seek out any letters of recommendation. I intend to be very involved in the next course I take since I know I need at least one LOR from a science professor, but generally how are LORs considered for those who have been mostly out of school for the past 5 years? I could perhaps try and talk to the pre-med advisor at my alma matter to see if I am still capable of getting some sort of committee letter but I won't hold my breath. What are the more realistic options I have as far as LORs are concerned to be a viable candidate?

Thanks again!

@Calad
Professors should be used to having students come around a couple years later & ask for a letter. I see plenty of people take o-chem as sophomores & get a letter in senior year. Contact those professors by email and ask if they could write on your behalf. Attach your CV (resume) and transcript and/or anything you might have written for their class (to jog their memory).
Some schools will do a committee letter for an alumnus so it is worth asking.
You can also ask med schools you plan to apply to what they advise.
If you have an employer, a letter from your employer is a good alternative to a letter from professor.

 

[DokterMom]

@DokterMom
I've never even seen my med schools mission statement and if I have, I haven't given it much thought. lol
So, I just looked for it and couldn't find it. So, there you have it!

That certainly answers that question! --
Thank you for all you do for SDN.

 

[The Buff OP]

@The Buff OP
No comment. Do you want to ask my husband's opinion?

That's okay.

 

[LizzyM]

@LizzyM,
I will be living my dream and starting an MSTP this summer with the goal of a long career in translational/basic research as a physician scientist. I also want a family. As a woman, and a professional yourself. do you believe a woman can have it all?

@plumazul
Define "all".
The saddest thing I ever heard in my workplace was at a baby shower when a married but childless women who earned a PhD in the 1970s said to me , "In my day we didn't think we could have children and keep our jobs."

With a supportive spouse (or enough money between you to buy some services you'd rather not do yourself like housekeeping, grocery shopping, laundry) you can do more than most women dreamed of a generation ago. That said, trade-offs need to be made and it is important to be on the same page with your partner.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

Thanks LizzyM. I so enjoy all your helpful comments and your terse digs. You've been incredibly helpful, even though I have so many more questions. I'll be applying in 2014 and hope to sit across from you during an interview in the next year. That is, if my well-roundedness vs tippy top gpa makes it through.

 

[medplease]

Hi LizzyM! Thanks so much for all you do on SDN! Sorry, I know this is a tad beyond the deadline, but I'm going to take my chances

My question is regarding the staircase analogy. I have had three interviews and have three more in January. So far, I've ended up on two waitlists and won't be hearing from the third school until Feb. I have middle to low stats (3.6/32), good EC's and a pretty unique background. I can't help but feel that with my GPA and MCAT, I am basically interviewing for the wait list, considering that most schools must interview plenty of students with good EC's, unique backgrounds AND higher GPA/MCAT's. And even if the interviewer is very impressed with an applicant and chooses to advocate for them strongly, the rest of the committee may choose to waitlist them just based on the grades/MCAT. So, even if I have very good interviews, it may not be enough to ascend the staircase to a level where I be accepted outright. Would you agree?

In your experience (although it sounds like I would not have been offered an interview at your school ) CAN the interview allow someone to jump up several steps on the staircase? Is it totally indescribable the difference between a phenomenal interview and a good interview? Basically, I am wondering what can be done in an interview to "wow" the interviewer? And are admissions committees hoping for something specific from each applicant based on their AMCAS and secondaries? Meaning, did they see my application initially and invite me for an interview hoping that I would be a certain way, or highlight certain aspects in particular in the interview?

Once again, thanks you for all the time you put into helping us here at SDN and happy new year!!!

 

[java64]

@Kalydeco
Oh that's like asking what happens when CIA director John Brennan sits down with Secretary of State John Kerry, Obama and Biden. It is very confidential. That said, those who favor admission point out all the positives of the application including the interview and say, "high risk, high reward". Those who opposes point out all the negatives in the application and interview and say "high risk high reward" with an emphasis on the "high risk". Then someone says, "Are we setting them up to fail?" Then someone offers an anecdote from a past cycle to make the point that such a student can do well. Another person points out the resources available to help such a student. In the end their is a show of hands -- usually between admit or waitlist. Those that could not ever, ever be admitted after having been good enough to interview are usually easier to discuss.

Updates don't matter to the adcom but can influence who gets off the waitlist.


What you've heard about voting schemes is accurate but there can still be discussion after people are ranked.

It is very rare but it can happen that someone who is not really in our ballpark gets an interview because they are the super-connected but not well qualified. We resist making those interview invites but if we make one, we could get into a heated discussion (see above) and end up admitting or declining or waitlisting.

This sentence scares me! Is this only the case if an applicant bombs the interview or otherwise demonstrates unfitness for the program? Or can someone who has a run-of-the-mill interview be placed into this category? Also, about how often does this situation present itself at your school? Thanks so much!

 

[LizzyM]

Thank you again for answering my questions Lizzy! As a first gen immigrant applicant, I am forever indebted to your advice.

1. I will be 3.5 years out of college by the time I submit my application this coming June (graduated my undergrad in the winter of 2010). Therefore, I plan to take a single upper-div bio course this upcoming spring quarter in order to demonstrate my ability to tackle recent coursework. Do you think one course is enough? I am not taking it so much for grade repair as I have a 3.6 GPA / 3.5 science GPA and a 35 MCAT taken in 2013. I am simply taking it to demonstrate recent coursework to medical schools. Do you know if it makes a significant difference if I take two courses this spring quarter? I ask because I have a full time job and extension courses are so expensive.

2. After this upcoming winter quarter, do you recommend I take classes this spring quarter as well? even though I would submit my AMCAS application before I could get an official transcript reflecting my spring quarter grades. Or do schools not care about an upper-div bio grades after application submission and I would just be wasting money.

3. Is recent coursework at two different online colleges (UC Berkeley extension and UCLA extension) acceptable? I've taken so many upper division biology classes that I could only find one upper div bio class from each of these institutions that does not seem too similar to courses I've already done.

4. Also, what do you think of taking these UC online classes for recent coursework in lieu of brick and mortar institutions?

5. You also previously mentioned to another poster that schools without premed committees are at a disadvantage when it comes to recommendation letters, but since I've heard that applicants are compared relative to other applicants from that same school, does that mitigate some concern?

Thank you again LizzyM!!

1 & 2 & 3 & 4. I would not be looking for anyone to have shown "recent" ability to tackle coursework. Do it is you want to but don't expect it to help your application.
5. Even comparing one applicant to others from the same institution, a good committee letter will "sell" an applicant by highlighting all their best attributes, bringing out some information that the applicant might not highlight (e.g. did not take any courses pass/fail to protect the GPA) and placing them in the best possible light.

 

[dododo121]

How often are adcom members also members of the committee that picks candidates for residency (and vice versa)? Or is it too hard to do both that almost all attendings who are involved in med school admissions don't get themselves involved in residency admissions (and vice versa)?

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM! Thanks so much for all you do on SDN! Sorry, I know this is a tad beyond the deadline, but I'm going to take my chances

My question is regarding the staircase analogy. I have had three interviews and have three more in January. So far, I've ended up on two waitlists and won't be hearing from the third school until Feb. I have middle to low stats (3.6/32), good EC's and a pretty unique background. I can't help but feel that with my GPA and MCAT, I am basically interviewing for the wait list, considering that most schools must interview plenty of students with good EC's, unique backgrounds AND higher GPA/MCAT's. And even if the interviewer is very impressed with an applicant and chooses to advocate for them strongly, the rest of the committee may choose to waitlist them just based on the grades/MCAT. So, even if I have very good interviews, it may not be enough to ascend the staircase to a level where I be accepted outright. Would you agree?

In your experience (although it sounds like I would not have been offered an interview at your school ) CAN the interview allow someone to jump up several steps on the staircase? Is it totally indescribable the difference between a phenomenal interview and a good interview? Basically, I am wondering what can be done in an interview to "wow" the interviewer? And are admissions committees hoping for something specific from each applicant based on their AMCAS and secondaries? Meaning, did they see my application initially and invite me for an interview hoping that I would be a certain way, or highlight certain aspects in particular in the interview?

Once again, thanks you for all the time you put into helping us here at SDN and happy new year!!!

@medplease
It is not yet 3:30 Pacific Time so you're good.
You realize that with your stats you are not going to be a first round draft choice but obviously, the team thought you might be good enough for team and would be happy to have you on the bench.
So, you might get a chance at the starting lineup if you really wow them in the interview but you are starting a bit behind the big bats.

So you show them your stuff in the interview and they are expecting someone who can get on base in one at bat out of 3. Now if you step up and hit three homers, you just went up so much in their opinions that you might make the starting lineup. What are those home runs? Being spectacularly charismatic in your demeanor, being well spoken with a vocabulary and style that allows you to speak in a very professional manner but also in a way that is easily understood by a neophyte and that is made with a delivery that does not come across as condescending or arrogant, that you are mature and sensible when asked questions about the "right" thing to do in a given situation and you demonstrate compassion and concern for the sick and injured without being unrealistic or overly romantic about the practice of medicine.

It isn't easy but I have seen underdogs make it to the big league.

 

[LizzyM]

This sentence scares me! Is this only the case if an applicant bombs the interview or otherwise demonstrates unfitness for the program? Or can someone who has a run-of-the-mill interview be placed into this category? Also, about how often does this situation present itself at your school? Thanks so much!

@java64
The people who are easy to decline to admit are those who bomb the interview by being severely antisocial (no eye contact, terse answers poorly articulated, weird body language, strange motivations for medicine) or who do something completely inappropriate such as cleaning their fingernails during the interview, putting their feet on the Dean's desk (I wish I were kidding), or being rude and boorish toward a low level staffer.
This might happen (mostly the anti social stuff) in about 5-10% of interviews.

 

[LizzyM]

How often are adcom members also members of the committee that picks candidates for residency (and vice versa)? Or is it too hard to do both that almost all attendings who are involved in med school admissions don't get themselves involved in residency admissions (and vice versa)?

@dododo121
Both are time consuming. I wouldn't expect anyone to want to do both but I suppose that stranger things have happened. Or it could be that someone rotates off one and rotates on the other.

 

[jetsfan1234]

@java64
The people who are easy to decline to admit are those who bomb the interview by being severely antisocial (no eye contact, terse answers poorly articulated, weird body language, strange motivations for medicine) or who do something completely inappropriate such as cleaning their fingernails during the interview, putting their feet on the Dean's desk (I wish I were kidding), or being rude and boorish toward a low level staffer.
This might happen (mostly the anti social stuff) in about 5-10% of interviews.

I am curious what you mean by "weird body language." Does this include stuff like playing with your ring while you are talking (I tend to do this)...or does it have to be more egregious things like putting your feet on the desk? I know that analyzing body language is sort of a pop psychology fad nowadays. Do adcoms look for certain "tells?"

 

[dododo121]

@java64
The people who are easy to decline to admit are those who bomb the interview by being severely antisocial (no eye contact, terse answers poorly articulated, weird body language, strange motivations for medicine) or who do something completely inappropriate such as cleaning their fingernails during the interview, putting their feet on the Dean's desk (I wish I were kidding), or being rude and boorish toward a low level staffer.
This might happen (mostly the anti social stuff) in about 5-10% of interviews.

What about having one bad interview answer (like really bad), but the rest of the interview ending on an okay note? Are the discussion on those kinds of interviews the ones that go on and on?

Also, what exactly is on the interviewee evaluation sheet (i.e. what do you guys have to assess post-interview)?

 

[LizzyM]

I am curious what you mean by "weird body language." Does this include stuff like playing with your ring while you are talking (I tend to do this)...or does it have to be more egregious things like putting your feet on the desk? I know that analyzing body language is sort of a pop psychology fad nowadays. Do adcoms look for certain "tells?"

No, I mean more like the "ants in the pants" fidget, sitting slouched over with extreme disinterest, twirling hair.... How would you not want someone to behave if they just came into your grandma's hospital room to tell you the results of her MRI?

 

[LizzyM]

What about having one bad interview answer (like really bad), but the rest of the interview ending on an okay note? Are the discussion on those kinds of interviews the ones that go on and on?

Also, what exactly is on the interviewee evaluation sheet (i.e. what do you guys have to assess post-interview)?

@dododo121
Yeah, one bad answer can result in a long discussion... if it is judged by some people to be an unethical response, it might not matter that you were otherwise terrific. If it is a description of an interview response that is hard to interprete, then there could be quite a bit of discussion, some focused on the interviewer who didn't write clearly or completely. For example, what question led an applicant to say, "Some people have to be talked out of their religion." Some adcom members will take that at face value and just say "no" and others might want to see a context in which the remark was made.

The discussions that go on & one tend to be those with marginal numbers and great interviews.

In the interview we are looking for motivation for medicine, maturity, communication skills, personality, that sort of thing.

 

[dododo121]

@dododo121
Yeah, one bad answer can result in a long discussion... if it is judged by some people to be an unethical response, it might not matter that you were otherwise terrific. If it is a description of an interview response that is hard to interprete, then there could be quite a bit of discussion, some focused on the interviewer who didn't write clearly or completely. For example, what question led an applicant to say, "Some people have to be talked out of their religion." Some interivewers will take that at face value and just say "no" and others might want to see a context in which the remark was made.

The discussions that go on & one tend to be those with marginal numbers and great interviews.

In the interview we are looking for motivation for medicine, maturity, communication skills, personality, that sort of thing.

Thank you so much for your response, LizzyM! So what happens if there are conflicting interview reports in this case? Does one report get ignored over the other or is the psot-interview score adjusted accordingly (since some interviewees will have gotten 2 positive interview evaluations).

Also, why do you suspect that some interviewers ask where else we've applied/interviewed? I'm not good with lying or giving vague answers (plus I don't want to come off as rude, even though I was asked a rude question), so I often give a brief school list... I hope it doesn't hurt me...

 

[smarts1]

I've heard that med schools can see where all of their applicants end up sometime in the summer, so my question is, do those interviewees with terrible interviews still end up at a med school?

Also, when directors of admissions refer to the "admissions committee" that meets post-interview, are our interviewers also part of that committee or are they separate from that (like will they rank us or at some schools, will they just present the interviewee)?

 

[Aerus]

Made it in before the deadline! These are my last questions for this year.

1) For schools without a committee to write a letter, do you have any advice on how applicants can still highlight these qualities? Would a professor who knows you extensively be inappropriate to discuss these traits?

2) Earlier in this thread, you said that it is weird if a person doesn't list their ethnicity, especially if they have a really obvious name. I'm curious about whether it ever hurt an applicant to not list their ethnicity (especially if they are White or Asian)? Will adcoms know anyways (pre-interview)?

3) Is there any distinction between doing your extracurricular activities during the school year (when you are also balancing that with schoolwork) as opposed to doing it during a gap year? (example: if both applicants had equal amount of hours for the EC's they did, but one did them during the school year while the other did them during a gap year)

4) You have said that you are an adcom at a high tiered research orientated medical school. I assume that you are looking for future "leaders in medicine". When I hear this phrase, I immediately think of Physicians who will also be doing cutting edge research in biomedical/clinical fields. When an applicant is interviewed at your school expresses interest in Primary Care, does that hurt them? (given that they still have a lot of research experience to gain an interview slot at your school in the first place)


Thank you for all your help this year and Happy New Years!

 

[Ipsca]

Thank you so much for doing this, LizzyM!

How closely do you scrutinize the undergrad transcripts of postbac students who have been out of college for several years (assuming the GPA is up to standard)?

 

[krefetz1]

Hi Lizzy,
Thanks again for doing this. Quick question: what would prompt a committee to put an applicant on a pre-interview hold instead of outright rejecting them? In your experience (I'm assuming it varies for every school), how many people eventually get an interview off this list?

 

[LizzyM]

Thank you so much for your response, LizzyM! So what happens if there are conflicting interview reports in this case? Does one report get ignored over the other or is the psot-interview score adjusted accordingly (since some interviewees will have gotten 2 positive interview evaluations).

Also, why do you suspect that some interviewers ask where else we've applied/interviewed? I'm not good with lying or giving vague answers (plus I don't want to come off as rude, even though I was asked a rude question), so I often give a brief school list... I hope it doesn't hurt me...

@dododo121
My error, I should have said, "adcom members" not "interviewers". But each interview report is taken on its own and keeping in mind the general disposition of the interviewer; some are really happy with almost everyone and others are perpetually cranky and rarely impressed with any applicant. If the always happy doc didn't like a candidate then we know we have a really serious problem, regardless of the other interview.

I do not ever ask where else someone has applied. I suppose some schools want to gauge your interest and perhaps say nice things about their school based on the type of school you seem to be interested in. Perhaps, some are going to protect their yield by saying no to you if you have the stats to get into better schools and have applied to them. Seriously, what are you doing interviewing as at Albany Medical College wen you have the stats to get into Columbia and NYU, etc. If you can say something that justifies why you are interested in that school (my husband is the chief of staff for State Senator ... and I really hope to be here in Albany for med school.... of course, I've applied to some schools in the city and some others that are close enough that we could see each other some weekend....) then you aren't being treated like someone who will run off to Columbia at a moment's notice. Schools hate to be considered "safeties" and they'll screw you over it.

 

[Bovary]

LizzyM,

You do a great job making it clear when answering questions that your opinions are those of just a single adcom member at one medical school. However, it's tempting to generalize your advice to apply to all medical schools because you are among the very few "official", eminently trustworthy sources of information about the admissions process to be found.

• Do you worry that some insight or advice you give on these forums might be harmfully inaccurate with regards to other medical schools?

• Do you like (or dislike) certain types of candidates in a way that the other adcom members disagree with?

• Could you speculate on how much a grain of salt we should take your advice, since it may or may not apply to most US med schools?

On SDN, the word of LizzyM is gospel. I'm glad you do what you do, but I'm worried that there are rarely other persons in positions similar to yours who can come in and dispute or corroborate what you say.

 

[newconsult]

This is my second question, sorry.
I'm really curious - what goes down in a room when an adcom is making the final decision? In other words, which documents are being reviewed, what's discussed, who are applicants compared to (if anyone), how does the voting work, etc.

Have a Happy New Year!