Attorney to Medical School

[Tiredlawyer]

Hi:

I am a 36 y/o attorney that is considering a career change. My student loan debt is around $160,000. I am thinking about medical school. This would involve a post-bac program as I have taken none of the science courses. So, this is the five year plan plus a residency. This really seems drastic considering my pre-existing student debt. However, this seems like the time for a change. Just wondering if anyone else is in this boat or any general input.

Thanks!

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[badb100d]

There are definitely folks who have made the transition you are thinking about. Just do a search to see what they have said. However, I think with what you have posted so far many will wonder if you have the best motivations for going into medicine, and this really has nothing to do with being a lawyer. Medicine is hardly a great solution to feeling burned out and needing to deal with loan debt. It may in fact make these problems worse (it probably will). You already seem to be in agreement, realizing that going into medicine is drastic. It sounds to me that you may be thinking medicine because of the prestige trap, since you are already a lawyer. This is another dangerous road to head down and may leave you feeling equally unhappy at the end.

That being said, as a nontrad I can understand wanting to transition into a field that is more meaningful. I think we have all been there. So I urge you to explore healthcare further through volunteering and/or shadowing to see which, if any, of the many rewarding careers in healthcare is for you. There are many options which may be better for you given the circumstances. At the end of the day, if medicine is what you still want you can be more confident that you have concrete reasons for committing yourself to this long, arduous path. That will make everything easier and far more worth it.

This is not meant to discourage you, but rather to encourage you to really take ownership of your decision.

 

[Tiredlawyer]

Thanks for the reply. I can that my inadequate post caused you to question my motivations. However, this is not a path for me to deal with burn out per se or student loans. As medical shool will double them. No doubt! I am thinking that it is time to leave law as many are. To me medicine seems to be what I should have done in the first place. As I like helping people, not representing corporations. You are right that there are alternatives. It will take thought though.

Best wishes

 

[Mr Karatepants]

Do you have any experience in a clinical setting? Before you jump into a post bac, you might want to see if this is really for you. Being in medicine is not as many people would imagine it.

Also, it's probably not going to be a 5 year plus residency thing. For instance, if you were to apply next season in 6 months, you would not matriculate until fall 2012. Seeing as how you have taken *none* of the prereqs (two semesters of chem, two semesters of bio, two semesters of ochem, two semesters of physics, all plus lab, in addition to preferably taking biochem, calc, and a few upper division behavioral science and bio classes) you are most likely looking at a 2-3 year post-bac. Factor in the "float year" that will most likely happen and you're talking about 8 years plus residency to be reasonable.

Give it some serious thought.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Hi:

I am a 36 y/o attorney that is underemployed and burnt out. Like many attorneys this economy has destroyed or delayed my career. My student loan debt is around $160,000. I am thinking about medical school. This would involve a post-bac program as I have taken none of the science courses. So, this is the five year plan plus a residency. This really seems drastic considering my pre-existing student debt. However, I am not sure what elese to do given the circumstances.

Just wondering if anyone else is in this boat or any general input.

Thanks!

If you are looking to improve your finances, medical school may not be your best bet. If you are already financially strapped, the medical school will worsen that condition. It will be at least 10 years from now before you make over $50K/year.

If you are looking for a more rewarding career, medicine may be a good idea or it may not. Despite your experience of school before, you are dealing with the best students as your peers and you may find that you are barely able to simply pass and become a primary care physician. Many PCP's burn out and do not care for their jobs at all. They get very tired of runny noses. You need to KNOW, not think, that this is the path for you.

There are careers for people with advanced degrees that don't actually practice law. The military or the CIA would love to make you an intelligence officer. On the opposite end of the scale, there are charitable organizations that need grant writers - and a good grant writer makes very good money - he is worth his weight in gold. In the middle ground, there is management - CFO's, Project Management....

All of these careers and financially better than the medical field and have their own rewards.

If you are SURE you want to be a doctor. Here is a VERY fast schedule, almost undoable and sure to hurt your MCAT score.

Spr 11 - Chem I and Bio I
Sum 11 - Chem II
Fall 11 - Physics I, OChem I, Bio II
Spr 12 - Physics II, OChem II

Summer 12 - MCAT and application
Fall 12 - Biochem and advanced Bio and interviews for med school
Spr 13 - Advanced Bio classes - Genetics/Physiology/Cell Bio
Fall 13 - Start Medical school

So, you see you have at LEAST 3 years before you can enter Medical School. You would be wiser to target fall 14 so that you have time to really get ready for the MCAT.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Spr 11 - Chem I and Bio I
Sum 11 - Chem II
Fall 11 - Physics I, OChem I, Bio II
Spr 12 - Physics II, OChem II

Summer 12 - MCAT and application
Fall 12 - Biochem and advanced Bio and interviews for med school
Spr 13 - Advanced Bio classes - Genetics/Physiology/Cell Bio
Fall 13 - Start Medical school

So, you see you have at LEAST 3 years before you can enter Medical School. You would be wiser to target fall 14 so that you have time to really get ready for the MCAT.

Let me show you what I am talking about in the difficulty department. I am a very good student and a very good test taker. I work full time and have a grown up family; I am a decade older than you.

Here are the classes that I took
Spr 09 - Bio I, Intro to Chem(the CC advisor and stupid and told me I had to take it), Intro to Psych, Amer History. I had a house fire and got burnt in the middle of the semester, had surgery and spent a week in the hospital. Got A's in everything, but withdrew from Intro to Chem
Sum 09 - Zoology made an A, intended to study and clep Chem II, did not
Fall 09 - Chem II dropped after first day because bad instructor, took Cell Bio, Genetics, Physics I, Made A's -- Clepped College Alg, Comp I & Amer Govt
Spr 10 - Chem II, Physics II, Hum II - A's. Had a knee surgery in the middle of the semester
Summ 10 - Took Mcat made a 33, Applied, took OChem I, took Speech but Withdrew
Fall 10 - Now taking Biochem and an evolution class
Spr 11 - Will take OChem II and two other advanced bio classes

This was a killer schedule. I scored at least 3 points lower on the MCAT (in my opinion) that I would have, had I taken more time. I am pretty burnt out in school and I am making the first B since 1987 in biochem.

 

[Catalystik]

If you are SURE you want to be a doctor. Here is a VERY fast schedule, almost undoable and sure to hurt your MCAT score.

Spr 11 - Chem I and Bio I
Sum 11 - Chem II
Fall 11 - Physics I, OChem I, Bio II
Spr 12 - Physics II, OChem II

Summer 12 - MCAT and application
Fall 12 - Biochem and advanced Bio and interviews for med school
Spr 13 - Advanced Bio classes - Genetics/Physiology/Cell Bio
Fall 13 - Start Medical school

So, you see you have at LEAST 3 years before you can enter Medical School. You would be wiser to target fall 14 so that you have time to really get ready for the MCAT.

Not to mention that you'll need to acquire the usual and customary ECs, like a reasonable amount of clinical experience where you interact with sick people, physician shadowing, possibly research if you aim to go to a more selective med school, and nonmedical community service (though any pro bono work you've done may cover that). Leadership and/or teaching are good to have, and maybe you did that in undergrad or through your employment.

 

[TFS]

do you have any experience in a clinical setting? Before you jump into a post bac, you might want to see if this is really for you. Being in medicine is not as many people would imagine it.

+1

 

[EdLongshanks]

Not to mention that you'll need to acquire the usual and customary ECs, like a reasonable amount of clinical experience where you interact with sick people, physician shadowing, possibly research if you aim to go to a more selective med school, and nonmedical community service (though any pro bono work you've done may cover that). Leadership and/or teaching are good to have, and maybe you did that in undergrad or through your employment.

BTW, Catalystik is the best "chancer" that SDN has. So his advice on getting into medical school is probably that best that can be gotten.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hi:

I am a 36 y/o attorney that is underemployed and burnt out. Like many attorneys this economy has destroyed or delayed my career. My student loan debt is around $160,000. I am thinking about medical school. This would involve a post-bac program as I have taken none of the science courses. So, this is the five year plan plus a residency. This really seems drastic considering my pre-existing student debt. However, I am not sure what elese to do given the circumstances.

Just wondering if anyone else is in this boat or any general input.

Thanks!

Your post is concerning because of its focus on debt, the economy, and being "burnt out". Medicine isn't a good field for burnouts -- it's a lot of work, for very delayed reward. And the reward isn't as much as a lot of people think anyhow (and almost assuredly won't be in the decade or so before you are actually post-training).

Law is a fine launching pad for medicine, but adcoms don't want someone who is burnt out and running away from the law, they instead want someone who is running toward medicine for a specific reason. To this end, I agree with everyone above who suggested you get out there and do some shadowing and clinical volunteering first, before you pull the trigger on a career change. Do you even like medicine, or is it just "the other professional career"? What makes you think you will like it better than law? Would you do it if the money wasn't as good as you might be thinking? You really need to get yourself a lot of exposure to young doctors, patients and their interactions, so you can be sure you know what you are getting into.

 

[Tiredlawyer]

Your post is concerning because of its focus on debt, the economy, and being "burnt out". Medicine isn't a good field for burnouts -- it's a lot of work, for very delayed reward. And the reward isn't as much as a lot of people think anyhow (and almost assuredly won't be in the decade or so before you are actually post-training).

Law is a fine launching pad for medicine, but adcoms don't want someone who is burnt out and running away from the law, they instead want someone who is running toward medicine for a specific reason. To this end, I agree with everyone above who suggested you get out there and do some shadowing and clinical volunteering first, before you pull the trigger on a career change. Do you even like medicine, or is it just "the other professional career"? What makes you think you will like it better than law? Would you do it if the money wasn't as good as you might be thinking? You really need to get yourself a lot of exposure to young doctors, patients and their interactions, so you can be sure you know what you are getting into.

I am burned out with law as a field. It never seems to be about helping people or doing the right thing. Whereas, in medicine the focus is helping people. That is my attraction to medicine.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I am burned out with law as a field. It never seems to be about helping people or doing the right thing. Whereas, in medicine the focus is helping people. That is my attraction to medicine.

You are going to find a universal reaction to that - which is that you are being naive. I don't know this from personal experience, but I do know that the adcomms will have a visceral and very negative reaction to that statement.

 

[QofQuimica]

You are going to find a universal reaction to that - which is that you are being naive. I don't know this from personal experience, but I do know that the adcomms will have a visceral and very negative reaction to that statement.

I don't universally have a very negative reaction to that statement, but I certainly *do* have a visceral reaction, which is to ask: 1) what specific things have you done that show interest in and understanding of a medical career, and 2) what examples can you give of things you have done to help people?

OP, previous posters have already given you advice concerning your post bac and app plans, so I won't comment further. But I do want to emphasize that as the others have said, you must spend some time in a medical setting where you're hanging out around physicians and patients. Shadowing physicians, volunteering in a medical setting, working for a physician, etc. would all be good ways to do this. It is not acceptable for you, especially as an adult with a previous career, to apply to medical school without having gotten significant exposure to physicians and what they do, and without being able to clearly articulate exactly why you want to go to medical school--including being able to give concrete examples when asked for them during interviews. The purpose of this requirement is to help you make a more informed decision; there are many ways to help people and have a fulfilling career besides being a physician, and some people realize fairly early on that they like the idea of being a physician better than they like the reality of it. For these reasons, I agree that the best place for you to start would be to do some shadowing and/or medical volunteering to help you figure out whether medicine is a good career choice for you. Best of luck.

 

[princekc]

Hi:

I am a 36 y/o attorney that is underemployed and burnt out. Like many attorneys this economy has destroyed or delayed my career. My student loan debt is around $160,000. I am thinking about medical school. This would involve a post-bac program as I have taken none of the science courses. So, this is the five year plan plus a residency. This really seems drastic considering my pre-existing student debt. However, I am not sure what elese to do given the circumstances.

Just wondering if anyone else is in this boat or any general input.

Thanks!

...will recommend you consider becoming a Physician Assistant (PA).

 

[TriagePreMed]

...will recommend you consider becoming a Physician Assistant (PA).

With the ego of an attorney? Will never happen. This is the same reason this guy (or gal) will go into medicine. Naively thinks that it'll give the prestige and the money desired. It has nothing to do with actually wanting to help people or having a passion for medicine. The OP should focus on getting back into the law game instead of trying to take a seat from someone that's meant to be a doctor.

 

[glamqueen]

With the ego of an attorney? Will never happen. This is the same reason this guy (or gal) will go into medicine. Naively thinks that it'll give the prestige and the money desired. It has nothing to do with actually wanting to help people or having a passion for medicine. The OP should focus on getting back into the law game instead of trying to take a seat from someone that's meant to be a doctor.

That's a lot of assumptions about someone you don't know at all. All of us that are older nontrads had various different careers prior to medicine, and we don't all fit into the stereotype of those careers either. Give the guy a break and just give him advice on how to start this path. That's all he wants, really.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

With the ego of an attorney? Will never happen. This is the same reason this guy (or gal) will go into medicine. Naively thinks that it'll give the prestige and the money desired. It has nothing to do with actually wanting to help people or having a passion for medicine. The OP should focus on getting back into the law game instead of trying to take a seat from someone that's meant to be a doctor.

That's exactly the kind of overreaching, reductive response you usually call out when it's made in the direction of someone with ****ty grades or CC prereqs. I agree with a lot of the above re: the OP's naivete, but surprised by your claiming his putative "seat" should go to someone "meant to be a doctor." I don't think that a burnt-out lawyer is any more disqualified from competitively seeking that seat than the guy who yanked down a 1.8 uGPA a decade ago who has now found Jesus and wants to chase his dreams. The competition has a way of spitting out both, for good reasons I believe.

 

[EdLongshanks]

With the ego of an attorney? Will never happen. This is the same reason this guy (or gal) will go into medicine. Naively thinks that it'll give the prestige and the money desired. It has nothing to do with actually wanting to help people or having a passion for medicine. The OP should focus on getting back into the law game instead of trying to take a seat from someone that's meant to be a doctor.

Whoa, now YOU'RE being judgmental and I'M the one being supportive? What causes this role reversal. Am I the secret elitist and you're the secret populist. Are you planning on joining the Tea Party while I go work for John Kerry?

 

[MCAT guy]

With the ego of an attorney? Will never happen. This is the same reason this guy (or gal) will go into medicine. Naively thinks that it'll give the prestige and the money desired. It has nothing to do with actually wanting to help people or having a passion for medicine. The OP should focus on getting back into the law game instead of trying to take a seat from someone that's meant to be a doctor.

lol bro. Wut?

 

[jl lin]

No one can tell you what to do. But as a CCRN I will tell you that as much as I love working with the residents, fellows, and attendings, well, I just don't see all the so called glamour.

Also, helping people comes with a lot of conflicting complexities. Sometimes you don't really know how much you have actually helped a person, even if you "save" the person's life.

Yes there are intrinsic rewards, but the ratio to distressing complexities and doubts to those intrinsic rewards is often like a 100 or 1000 : 1 kind of deal.

On top of that you are worked to death. Truth is, its all pretty tough--even if you ultimately aim for radiology or pathology or dermatology.

I mean yes, I have probably seen more of the worst cases of post-medical school residencies and such, since most of the res/fellow docs and attendings are either surgeons or intensivists or IM critical care or critc care anesthes intens, or neontalogists, or ED physicians. These are all tough areas to work in post-med school graduation. Still, just the whole process of getting there in the first place is overwhelming at times.

On top of that you look at the issues with reimbursements and Obamacare and midlevel squeezes, and the whole cost of the educational process and lack of delay in financial improvement (as previously stated by others), well, it all paints a picture that says "You either have to be nuts for doing this" or "You can't see yourself doing anything else."


And trust me. Others will definitely question your sanity in pursuing this path. You have to be reasonably sure about what you are going into it for, or you may find out that you will be MAJORLY disappointed. That's why getting the clincial exposure is good--and I mean a lot of it. If you can, try to get clinical exposure that runs with consecutive days and consecutive nights. You will get more of a taste of things--especially in a place like a busy, inner city ED.

 

[thefritz]

Hi:

I am a 36 y/o attorney that is underemployed and burnt out. Like many attorneys this economy has destroyed or delayed my career. My student loan debt is around $160,000. I am thinking about medical school. This would involve a post-bac program as I have taken none of the science courses. So, this is the five year plan plus a residency. This really seems drastic considering my pre-existing student debt. However, I am not sure what elese to do given the circumstances.

Just wondering if anyone else is in this boat or any general input.

Thanks!

Going to medical school in order to pay off your law school debt is not a smart thing to do. Doctors get paid a lot of money, but by the time it takes you to become a doctor, you would have paid that debt off long ago.

If you want to go to med school because you are realizing that you're not going to earn 50 grand a month as a lawyer, then that is even worse. Enter med school when you are already burnt out and broke is *****ic.

I suggest you first look for a better job in your field (since something drew you to it in the first place, hopefully not just money), if not then consider stepping from legal to business operations/management. Get an MBA if you have to. You may also want to consider a career in the military or if you don't have children or a family to support, going out on your own.

Also, plenty of burnt out people leave professional careers and enter trades in something than enjoy doing. The money for skilled labor is good, and you can be your own boss.

You said "I am burned out with law as a field. It never seems to be about helping people or doing the right thing. Whereas, in medicine the focus is helping people. That is my attraction to medicine."

I really think you're lying to yourself here, and you are going to have an extremely hard time trying to convince anybody else that you want to be a doctor to help people. (which is not even the "right" reason for wanting to go to med school). The practice of medicine and law literally have nothing in common except for traditional notions of prestige and high pay. It's hard to imagine a lawyer who enters the field of medicine with no concern for these things. If your goal is to simply help people medically, you should consider nursing or PA school. Both lead to stable, rewarding, and well-paying careers. If you can't imagine yourself in these careers, then your reason is not "to help people."

 

[Silverfalcon]

Honestly, unless you are absolutely sure about medical school - which I guarantee that you are not - then just start with some other careers in medicine. You do not have to be a doctor to help someone in medical field. There are lots of careers... Google them.

While TriagePreMed's comment was rather extreme, I don't think it's wrong to simply keep pushing OP to medicine though. I feel like the reason of "I don't like law anymore because I'm burned out from economy so I'm going to go into medicine" is really really really... naive and immature. This may be assumption but I feel like if the economy wasn't bad for lawyer, this is a person who would stick in law because he/she's making money. It seems to be less about medical school than about money, and OP should seek other careers in medicine than physicians. Even PA is a bit too much for someone who didn't take science courses in UG. I would start off to look for nursing.

 

[Tiredlawyer]

I am surprised about this hostility and people calling me "naive" and "immature". The reality is this - if you are not a lawyer in this market, you could not understand what I mean about burn out. A law degree has become about as worthless as a humanities degree. That has ended my career. Not that I really have anything to prove to anyone. It has me thinking about alternative careers. Obviously, I am not sure about medical school that is why I am posting here. Otherwise, I would have started a post-bac already. It is part of the decision process which absolutely needs to be an informed decision. As is volunteer work at a medical center. Obviously this decision process needs to be informed. Law school enrollment is up and those people are sure not making informed decisions.

However, my father is a doctor and for him it is all about helping people. That always came before the money. That was always my attraction to medicine. BTW, my interest is in primary care which is not the most rewarding financially. If people want to "assume" that I am naive because I have this drive perphaps this originates from their own preconcieved notions. Or perhaps they just like to put people down.

Done with this.

Thanks to those with constructive feedback.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am surprised about this hostility and people calling me "naive" and "immature". The reality is this - if you are not a lawyer in this market, you could not understand what I mean about burn out. A law degree has become about as worthless as a humanities degree. That has ended my career. Not that I really have anything to prove to anyone. It has me thinking about alternative careers. Obviously, I am not sure about medical school that is why I am posting here. Otherwise, I would have started a post-bac already. It is part of the decision process which absolutely needs to be an informed decision. As is volunteer work at a medical center. Obviously this decision process needs to be informed. Law school enrollment is up and those people are sure not making informed decisions.

However, my father is a doctor and for him it is all about helping people. That always came before the money. That was always my attraction to medicine. BTW, my interest is in primary care which is not the most rewarding financially. If people want to "assume" that I am naive because I have this drive perhaps this originates from their own preconceived notions. Or perhaps they just like to put people down.

Done with this.

Thanks to those with constructive feedback.

As I suggested above, running from the law is not a good motivation to go to med school. And that is the sense a lot of us are getting from your posts. You are very vague about what you want to find in medicine and why it interests you -- the goal "to help people" is tired and cliche and really doesn't mean much. There are numerous ways to "help people" without making a giant career change. Everyone says it in their PS, nobody really considers it a sustainable motivation.
(And as the CCRN above suggests with reference to "complexities" of helping people, frequently as a physician you end up "helping people" by maintaining their vitals, only to have them spend their remaining days suffering indignities, respirators and feeding tubes, which maybe isn't "helping" them all that much.)

And your comment that "law school enrollment is up..." regarding many not making informed decisions kind of misses the point. You are a nontrad. You are older, and are going to be expected to make much better decisions than some fool right out of college who goes to law school because they wanted to defer entering the work force for another three years. Adcoms are going to expect much more from your decision process than the typical law school admissions staff.

At any rate, the right first step is to shadow and volunteer in medicine. This will help you flesh out your "reasons" for changing careers (or maybe help you decide whether this is even the right career move for you). That should be step 1. The fact that you have a father in medicine won't be considered meaningful exposure to the field, and you still have to get some experience of your own before you can make this decision. Once you have logged a decent amount of clinical exposure, you can make an informed decision, and hopefully can articulate more specifically what you are looking for in medicine (rather than simply what you didn't like about law, or that you have some vague notions about "helping people").

Finally, you are going to need much much thicker skin to go down this road. Folks are going to question your motivations throughout this process. You need a better back story. You need a strong answer to the question "why medicine?" And you need to have an interest in the field beyond "helping people". Good luck. But I think you still need to spend a lot more time researching this decision.

 

[thefritz]

I am surprised about this hostility and people calling me "naive" and "immature". The reality is this - if you are not a lawyer in this market, you could not understand what I mean about burn out. A law degree has become about as worthless as a humanities degree. That has ended my career. Not that I really have anything to prove to anyone. It has me thinking about alternative careers. Obviously, I am not sure about medical school that is why I am posting here. Otherwise, I would have started a post-bac already. It is part of the decision process which absolutely needs to be an informed decision. As is volunteer work at a medical center. Obviously this decision process needs to be informed. Law school enrollment is up and those people are sure not making informed decisions.

However, my father is a doctor and for him it is all about helping people. That always came before the money. That was always my attraction to medicine. BTW, my interest is in primary care which is not the most rewarding financially. If people want to "assume" that I am naive because I have this drive perphaps this originates from their own preconcieved notions. Or perhaps they just like to put people down.

Done with this.

Thanks to those with constructive feedback.

LOL at only hearing what you want to hear. A professional degree, whether legal or medical is just a piece of paper. It doesn't entitle you to anything except to get a license and practice. Where you go from there is up to you. Sounds like you are upset that your legal degree is not guaranteeing you high pay by simply possessing it. While it is true that it's easier to get a high-paying job with a medical degree without having to do legwork or necessarily be good at your job, that's a crappy reason to choose medical school. Write on your admissions essay "I want to go to med school because your gravy train is a lot easier to hop on. Making gobs of money in other career fields is just too risky and takes too much work with no promise of reward" See what happens.

The best advice you're gonna get has been mentioned here multiple times. If you truly are interested in PATIENT CARE (not just "helping" people, you need to know the difference), then look into PA school. Can you live on $80-100k per year and pay back your loans? Seems like it would accomplish both your objectives (make you more money, move into medical field, and not take an insanely long time so you can start paying back your loans).

Just trying to help, but I really don't think you're going to listen. I'm early in medical school, and I think it's the best decision I've ever made, but you need to know what you're getting into, and your posts indicate right now that you don't have any clue.

 

[TriagePreMed]

That's exactly the kind of overreaching, reductive response you usually call out when it's made in the direction of someone with ****ty grades or CC prereqs. I agree with a lot of the above re: the OP's naivete, but surprised by your claiming his putative "seat" should go to someone "meant to be a doctor." I don't think that a burnt-out lawyer is any more disqualified from competitively seeking that seat than the guy who yanked down a 1.8 uGPA a decade ago who has now found Jesus and wants to chase his dreams. The competition has a way of spitting out both, for good reasons I believe.

I don't think a burnt out lawyer shouldn't be a doctor. There are plenty of engineers and lawyers here that I support 100%. However, the OP speaks about medicine but changing careers. In fact, the OP messaged me saying that attorneys are broke. I do question the motives, and I do believe that someone "meant to be a doctor" should be a doctor. You can compare 2 former attorneys and I'd support the one doing it for the right reasons and not just after they think being an attorney is no longer profitable.

I don't see how you can even compare this to me defending students when others tell them they can't make it because of past mistakes. It also doesn't apply when I see people falsely claiming that community college is a sure ticket into rejection. I've said a million times. Go to the best school you can, but if you can only go to CC, don't let that get in the way of your dream.

 

[MCAT guy]

To the OP,

I had a generally vague feeling of wanting to be a doctor, wanting to help people or something like that. With time I developed a better answer.

I've had a pretty good application season and it's early. So don't worry about explaining your motivations right now (just know you'll have to later though *interviews/PS*).

Agreed with Law2doc though, you need thick skin. Lots of people are going to disrespect and doubt you along this path. You have to be sure you want to do it and be committed.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[MCAT guy]

I am surprised about this hostility and people calling me "naive" and "immature".

I don't think you necessarily sounded naive. Lots of people on this site are pessimists.

Wanting to do good and help people is a great motivation. Hell, it's what I say in my interviews (not in those words of course).

 

[mjscal]

How do you have $160,000 of student debt at age 36? Going to medical school will require another $100,000 of debt if you are lucky and probably 150,000 to $200,000. Since you will also have no income for a number of years your current student debt will increase substantially until it is well over $200,000. Current weekly hour limitations during post graduate training will also limit your ability to moonlight. This means that you would be lucky to come out of training with $400,000 of debt and you will be in your late 40's. Since you might than practice for 20 years if you are lucky there is really no time to re coup your investment from your financial perspective.
Do not even think of doing this.

 

[MCAT guy]

How do you have $160,000 of student debt at age 36? Going to medical school will require another $100,000 of debt if you are lucky and probably 150,000 to $200,000. Since you will also have no income for a number of years your current student debt will increase substantially until it is well over $200,000. Current weekly hour limitations during post graduate training will also limit your ability to moonlight. This means that you would be lucky to come out of training with $400,000 of debt and you will be in your late 40's. Since you might than practice for 20 years if you are lucky there is really no time to re coup your investment from your financial perspective.
Do not even think of doing this.

well, I guess that settles this!

 

[Cboseak1]

With the ego of an attorney? Will never happen. This is the same reason this guy (or gal) will go into medicine. Naively thinks that it'll give the prestige and the money desired. It has nothing to do with actually wanting to help people or having a passion for medicine. The OP should focus on getting back into the law game instead of trying to take a seat from someone that's meant to be a doctor.

I definitely think you are out of line in this statement, I agree there is serious thought to be made. Honestly though, let's look at why were all here. The non trad has airline pilots, ex military, college drop outs, etc and no one gives them crap about their decision. This guy has already proved himself of his academic abilities, let's not beat the guy down about a career choice. What makes the people on here that are college dropouts, airline pilots, and construction workers more deserving to go into medicine.

I know medical school is a harder and longer path than law school, but this is the last guy that I'd question in terms of ability

As for everyone beating the guy down about why he wants to go into medicine, we all have had that feeling where we have "just known" medicine is what we wanted, we can't put words to it. the only reason we attempts to articulate it is because adcoms force us to

I've seen both sides, there's a quality to lawyers and the people that seek them that feels shady, criminal defense anyways. I thought about going to law school route, the thought of dealing with deadbeats all day, and trying to find loopholes for f ups that break the law is the opposite of helping people. As I've said before medicine is just something we know we want, when I made the decision between the pre med and pre law route, the same thing came to mind, medicine I'm healing people, law I'm helping criminals get out of jail so they can go break the law again

I think there has been alot of good advice given on here. so as other have said if medicine is what you want to do we all understand, you now have a roadmap, follow it and make sure to keep us updated

 

[Silverfalcon]

I am surprised about this hostility and people calling me "naive" and "immature". The reality is this - if you are not a lawyer in this market, you could not understand what I mean about burn out. A law degree has become about as worthless as a humanities degree. That has ended my career. Not that I really have anything to prove to anyone. It has me thinking about alternative careers. Obviously, I am not sure about medical school that is why I am posting here. Otherwise, I would have started a post-bac already. It is part of the decision process which absolutely needs to be an informed decision. As is volunteer work at a medical center. Obviously this decision process needs to be informed. Law school enrollment is up and those people are sure not making informed decisions.

However, my father is a doctor and for him it is all about helping people. That always came before the money. That was always my attraction to medicine. BTW, my interest is in primary care which is not the most rewarding financially. If people want to "assume" that I am naive because I have this drive perphaps this originates from their own preconcieved notions. Or perhaps they just like to put people down.

Done with this.

Thanks to those with constructive feedback.

I don't know where you get the idea of law degree being useless, but it is clearly not. I know people who are currently lawyers and are pre-law applying to law school. The market for lawyers is saturated, but this does not mean that the degree itself is worthless. If you are a lawyer who can write well, then there are jobs available. Of course, you are better off looking for legal advice at forums like TLS than SDN though.

Having said that, no one is putting you down. I really feel like I'm talking to a lawyer because... we are explaining, and you are not listening. The truth about non-trad is that it's tough, but it's doable. But it's not for someone who just wants alternative career. I've read posts of non-trads who truly care about medicine and want to spend remaining of their lives as physicians. Like I said before, consider other career options than medical school. You do not have to go to medical school to participate in alternate careers in medicine.

Of course... unless you are still stuck in the social stigma of believing that you must go to medical school since your dad is a physician (and so if you have to change careers, you can only settle for physician, nothing less). Lol.

 

[Tiredlawyer]

I realize my posts were not carefully crafted and conveyed the message that I just want another high paying job or an alternative career. Furthermore, I don't want to beat a dead horse over the value of a law degree. However, law has been decimated by this ecomomy and many are jumping ship. I have not had a steady job since being laid off two years ago and I went to a top 20 law school. Regardless, I have always been unhappy with law even when I was making a high salary.

I have been thinking about medicine for a long time. Again, I know my poorly phrased posts did not convey this. I agree the starting point is getting clinical exposure. So, I am actively pursuing shadowing and volunteer opportunities. Once I get this under my belt, I will know more. Perhaps, a PA or NP program is a better fit for me. It is premature. I will know in time after some exposure and thought.

Thank you all for your advice. Time to end this circular argument!

I don't know where you get the idea of law degree being useless, but it is clearly not. I know people who are currently lawyers and are pre-law applying to law school. The market for lawyers is saturated, but this does not mean that the degree itself is worthless. If you are a lawyer who can write well, then there are jobs available. Of course, you are better off looking for legal advice at forums like TLS than SDN though.

Having said that, no one is putting you down. I really feel like I'm talking to a lawyer because... we are explaining, and you are not listening. The truth about non-trad is that it's tough, but it's doable. But it's not for someone who just wants alternative career. I've read posts of non-trads who truly care about medicine and want to spend remaining of their lives as physicians. Like I said before, consider other career options than medical school. You do not have to go to medical school to participate in alternate careers in medicine.

Of course... unless you are still stuck in the social stigma of believing that you must go to medical school since your dad is a physician (and so if you have to change careers, you can only settle for physician, nothing less). Lol.

 

[BLKPA2MD]

I realize my posts were not carefully crafted and conveyed the message that I just want another high paying job or an alternative career. Furthermore, I don't want to beat a dead horse over the value of a law degree. However, law has been decimated by this ecomomy and many are jumping ship. I have not had a steady job since being laid off two years ago and I went to a top 20 law school. Regardless, I have always been unhappy with law even when I was making a high salary.

I have been thinking about medicine for a long time. Again, I know my poorly phrased posts did not convey this. I agree the starting point is getting clinical exposure. So, I am actively pursuing shadowing and volunteer opportunities. Once I get this under my belt, I will know more. Perhaps, a PA or NP program is a better fit for me. It is premature. I will know in time after some exposure and thought.

Thank you all for your advice. Time to end this circular argument!

.....I wish my Dad was a doctor. I wish I went to top 20 law school. I don't wish to be 36y.o , a lawyer with 160k student loan debt & still indecisive on career choice. Just my blkass wish! I wish you best of luck.

 

[PharmBound2011]

is this a financial decision or one specifically to "help people" ?

I'll be honest, looking at your situation, med school would be a big mistake financially. You will be around 45 when you're a doctor, with around 450k to pay off.

Now, if it is a altruistic one, and you understand financially it's not a good decision, then it's up to you. If I was you and if I was completely adamant on a career change, I would start taking the standard pre-med prerequisites. After you complete those, I would gauge to see if you want to continue to medical school. If you decide you do, then god-speed to you! Although, if you can't see yourself going to med school at that time, STRONGLY consider PA school. The prereqs you took for med school are the same ones you need for PA school, so it won't be extra work you need to do to apply, if you do so decide to take that path. That route will fulfill your desire to "help people".

 

[MCAT guy]

.....I wish my Dad was a doctor. I wish I went to top 20 law school. I don't wish to be 36y.o , a lawyer with 160k student loan debt & still indecisive on career choice. Just my blkass wish! I wish you best of luck.

lol, wut?

 

[wolverinepwns]

if you want to help people and you want to get rid of your debt, you can always go the nursing route and become a NP. with your debt and considering the substantial debt you will be in after medschool, this plan sounds rather crazy.

 

[BLKPA2MD]

lol, wut?

...It's just a joke!

 

[EdLongshanks]

if you want to help people and you want to get rid of your debt, you can always go the nursing route and become a NP. with your debt and considering the substantial debt you will be in after medschool, this plan sounds rather crazy.

This thread is getting almost as hostile as my introductory post that got shutdown.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=655410'

The answer to the OP is the same answer as usual. You can do this. It takes a very long time (longer than you think) and it costs a lot of money. It is not a wise financial choice for anyone who will start medical school after 35. With the OP's education, he has the choice of lots of other careers that are more financially rewarding, easier, and also helps people.

If he is determined on a medical career it is possible. Be very sure, it is hard.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
I've seen both sides, there's a quality to lawyers and the people that seek them that feels shady, criminal defense anyways. I thought about going to law school route, the thought of dealing with deadbeats all day, and trying to find loopholes for f ups that break the law is the opposite of helping people. As I've said before medicine is just something we know we want, when I made the decision between the pre med and pre law route, the same thing came to mind, medicine I'm healing people, law I'm helping criminals get out of jail so they can go break the law again...

I think you are demonizing lawyers for a very very small subset of them. The vast vast vast majority will do nothing even remotely related to criminal law. Most won't do litigation either. Most lawyers either do transactional work or work for or with the government. They won't be trying to find loopholes for f-ups to break the law. They won't be the guys you see on late night ads, or the ones you see portrayed on TV shows. These constitute very small subsets, and shouldn't be extrapolated to the legal field. Most lawyers represent clients who genuinely seek help to accomplish their goals within the law, and need help with the paperwork, with the negotiations, with understanding the rules and regulations. This is what MOST lawyers do. In this respect it is very similar to medicine -- people come to you for help, and you use your knowledge base to resolve their issue. It is about helping people.

You will see in medicine that you will be doing a whole lot more "helping criminals get out [of the hospital/ED] s they can go break the law again" than the typical lawyer ever does. You will be giving junkies their fixes to get them out. You will be patching up the gangbangers so they can go right out and injure someone else. Neither field plays judge -- they just help all takers. So don't try to kid yourself that physicians are doing better work. Take it from someone who has been in both arenas. Plenty are doing the same kind of "send them on their way to commit more crimes" work in both fields. The rest are legitimately helping people resolve issues in both field.

Part of the reason lawyers do so well with the adcoms is because it's largely THE SAME JOB. Adcoms all know this. Both fields are about communication, and about providing a service, and working long hours, and conducting yourself professionally and ethically, and using your knowledge base and being empathetic. And this is kind of the reason I don't think someone who is burnt out of the law and not finding any appeal in it is going to be happy in medicine. And why shadowing/volunteering is going to be so important. Most of the people who thrive in medicine as a former lawyer didn't actually hate the law, they were driven by some specific attraction in medicine that isn't found in law. Helping people isn't an example of this -- you can help people in law. The OP needs to figure out whether there is some draw to medicine and be able to articulate it. So far he has articulated reasons to leave law, which IMHO are many of the same reasons he might dislike medicine, which I feel is a field with more similarities than differences to law.

 

[mjscal]

It has just occurred to me that going into medicine may not be possible for our tiredlawyer. It will take at least three years to actually get in and start medical school, if not more. Getting in to a US allopathic medical school will be very difficult. The current $160,000 in student debt will ballon to about $190,00 by medical school start in three years and 300,000 by the end of ten years if we assume no interest payment, no new educational loans to try to get into medical school and a 6.5% interest. Four more years for medical school and at least three years for residency. I do not think you can get through any medical school in the US for less than $20,000 a year and most cost substantially more. The most you can take out in federal loans is $224,000 for all of one's education. There are other loans and grants but it will be very difficult for a medical school to fund our possible career changer.

 

[TFS]

don't get bogged down with the pessimism and judgment. there's nothing wrong with liking the financial aspect of medicine and you don't need some saintly reason to go into medicine, but just make sure you like the patient care aspect because it's important and you will need to explain that in your personal statement and in interviews.

that's a lot of debt. can you take a loan from your father to pay it off - and then pay him back later?

 

[TriagePreMed]

The OP is clearly making a mistake, but let him be. If he's been a T20 attorney for 10 years and still can't make ends meet, there's something wrong with him. My friend is graduated 3-4 years ago from USC (the real one in California) and is making ends meet nicely, has a nice car, and is getting married soon. If the OP really wants to help people and doesn't care about finances, a non-profit will likely take him. Fact is the OP is indecisive and maybe even has an ulterior motive to leave law.

 

[Tiredlawyer]

I guess that he doesn't like me. You haven't been reading my posts very carefully. I never said that I was 10 years out of law school. I am not. Hey, I guess there is nothing wrong with making stuff up and engaging in mad speculation when it fits your agenda.

The OP is clearly making a mistake, but let him be. If he's been a T20 attorney for 10 years and still can't make ends meet, there's something wrong with him. My friend is graduated 3-4 years ago from USC (the real one in California) and is making ends meet nicely, has a nice car, and is getting married soon. If the OP really wants to help people and doesn't care about finances, a non-profit will likely take him. Fact is the OP is indecisive and maybe even has an ulterior motive to leave law.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I guess that he doesn't like me. You haven't been reading my posts very carefully. I never said that I was 10 years out of law school. I am not. Hey, I guess there is nothing with making stuff up and engaging in mad speculation when it fits your agenda.

The personalities in this forum are funny. TPM is a she, and she is usually quite nice to people, while I am mean and judgmental. Shrug.

You don't need our permission anyway. This thread has degenerated into whether you ought to pursue medicine, and that is not your question.

You can pursue medicine, although financially it will be a challenge for you, since you will hit your student loan max. You have at least 2 years before you could enter med school, and you ought to make it 3 years.

If you are serious about this, then register - today - for BIO I, and Chem I at your nearest state school.

 

[Lazarus]

I guess that he doesn't like me. You haven't been reading my posts very carefully. I never said that I was 10 years out of law school. I am not. Hey, I guess there is nothing with making stuff up and engaging in mad speculation when it fits your agenda.

Just think this is the softer nicer side of the SDN forums...try the pre-allo forums for your situation...sharks + your post (baby seal).

But you had to expect this if you did even a cursory look at any similar posts. From my personal experience non-trad post bacs had a career they were not happy with..and as such are switching to medicine...which means that postbacs as a group are old, crabby, and jaded. Add into the mix that this is the cream of the crop of internet all star, uber postbacs and you get your previous 44 responses.

Good luck! And I do agree with the above posters. But hey this game is all about your own personal motivation and drive to achieve.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

If you are serious about this, then register - today - for BIO I, and Chem I at your nearest state school.

No, no, no. Shadow/volunteer FIRST. If you decide you like it, THEN you can proceed with the postbac stuff. It doesn't look as good to do it the other way round. You need to look BEFORE you leap, not leap and then look. The trads get to do it the latter way. Nontrads look a lot smarter if they are better thought out and really research their decision BEFORE they pull the trigger. Most of the really successful folks mulled this decision for months to years, finally doing some shadowing to cement their decision. They didn't start the career change and then see what shadowing they could get, as if it was some additional prereq. Just my two cents.

 

[EdLongshanks]

No, no, no. Shadow/volunteer FIRST. If you decide you like it, THEN you can proceed with the postbac stuff. It doesn't look as good to do it the other way round. You need to look BEFORE you leap, not leap and then look. The trads get to do it the latter way. Nontrads look a lot smarter if they are better thought out and really research their decision BEFORE they pull the trigger. Most of the really successful folks mulled this decision for months to years, finally doing some shadowing to cement their decision. They didn't start the career change and then see what shadowing they could get, as if it was some additional prereq. Just my two cents.

Good point. If you don't start taking classes, you put off your medical career for another year - this is a loss. If you start classes, you might intellectually and socially commit yourself to something you will not eventually like - which is a disaster.

 

[MCAT guy]

Good point. If you don't start taking classes, you put off your medical career for another year - this is a loss. If you start classes, you might intellectually and socially commit yourself to something you will not eventually like - which is a disaster.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Actually, I was serious.