JD to MD? Post bacc/career changer advice please!!!

[bnc66]

Hi guys!

There are a couple threads on here from fellow lawyers considering the switch to medicine, but they are pretty old, so I thought I'd create a new post. Straight up, I know this sounds kind of insane, but any advice/tips people have about postbacs, particularly for career changers, would be so helpful!

I majored in psychology as an undergrad with a general gpa of 3.8 and I took the calc, bio, and inorganic chem pre-med classes and had an sGPA of 3.7, but no biochem/organic chem/physics (which are the real kickers, I know!) Also, didnt take the mcat.

Basically I went to law school straight out of undergrad, graduated from law school a year and a half ago, and I've been working for approx the last year in a job/field that makes me miserable. I have finally found the courage to look into postbac programs. Specifically, there are some that are designed for career changers with strong backgrounds, but a lack of science courses/medical experience. I've been looking at Bryn Mawr and Goucher in particular. I was really surprised by these types of programs, as they specifically do not want you to have majored in the sciences in undergrad and actually dont accept you if you have taken the mcat before. From my understanding, they admit you and then link you with appropriate schools on a provisional basis, and then require you to get certain grades/mcat score in order to attain your admission. These programs sound almost too good to be true, so any insight would be super helpful.

Additionally, any advice on postbacs that are good for career changers, post bac applications tips for career changers, tips on preparing, etc. would be so helpful. Just as a note, for the past two months I have left my law job, and Im currently doing research in a local hospital and job shadowing a family friend who is a cardiologist. Im looking to see what kind of volunteer work would be helpful (both for application purposes, and also for just getting back into the medical field and confirming for sure that this is something I want to do) so tips on relevant volunteer work would be great! Im also looking into buying an online mcat course, and just starting to crack away at that beast.

If you think Im a complete nut, I totally get it. This is something Im really sensitive about, and its really personal, so please dont respond with a ton of hateful comments like I've seen on other older jd to md threads. Thanks in advance for any tips/help/support!

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[bnc66]

So this is a bit more about my backstory, just in case someone out there is nice enough to want to reply to me:

I went to law school straight out of undergrad. I was totally unprepared, and made the decision to go to law school based on some pretty immature/unfounded assumptions about what the field/job entailed. I was miserable from the first month, but people kept telling me to stick out the first semester/year/internship/etc. and before I knew it I was in my third year of law school when I was at my lowest and it just made more sense to finish it off. But even after passing the bar and working for a bit, Im still completely miserable. Just to clarify, there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with my career. I went to a very good school, got decent grades, and have an ok job/pay. I'm just really miserable and while I'm an decent attorney, Im not particularly gifted in the field. I know many people in law school who got worse grades than me, but had a genuine passion and talent for law, and I see those people being far more successful and fulfilled than me. I know I should have quit sooner, but I guess my Asian/Indian upbringing/committed personality just wouldn't allow me to quit something halfway through. In hindsight, Im realizing now that you literally can be committed to a fault.

I've always thought the definition of success and happiness in life are those people who are old enough to retire, but genuinely dont want to because they enjoy their careers that much. There is no way I see my law career turning out that way. Just seeing myself going into work for the next two years in a row makes me queasy, let alone for the rest of my life.

Being a doctor was the job I dreamed of having for most of my life, and I have a ton of doctors in my immediate family so I have always grown up around the field/know a lot of the realities of the job. I have really stupid reasons for switching my mind halfway through college, and I've regretted the decision at literally every phase of my life. I know this is an insane move, but the people who know me well are pretty understanding and supportive. Mostly because I've been complaining about my life for a very long time, and the people I truly admire in life all seem to be in the medical field. I'm also 26 - so I realize that I'm not young or anything, but I dont feel that old and I dont have a partner/family/even a dog or houseplant to consider. I also dont have a terrible financial situation, as I went to undergrad and law school with substantial scholarships and had parental support; also, I've been working as a full time attorney for a year, while I've been living at home and spending basically no money because my days consist of mostly work, hanging with my mom, and generally hating my life while binging on netflix - all rather cheap activities. Sounds really sad, but at least I've made a good dent in the portion of my student debt that I did cover with loans.

PS even if no one out there in the interwebs replies to me, that was extremely cathartic to write

 

[SpoiledMilk]

You don't need a formal SMP/postbacc program. They are expensive, and SDN generally advises them for peeps with very low GPAs that need remediation. With your current GPAs, you only need to do a DIY postbacc, by taking prerequisite courses at a 4 year university (you can do CC, but a 4 year univ is preferred because the courses are deemed more rigorous--get A's). To determine what courses are required for the medical schools you are interested in, get a subscription to AAMC's MSAR.

You will need to have ECs. Shadowing a cardiologist is fine, maybe do 10-15 hrs, but you need 50+ hours shadowing a PCP (IM, Peds, OBGYN, FM). Doing research at the hospital is a plus, but you will also need clinical experience with active patient contact like at the ER, hospice, etc. Additionally, you need nonclinical experience serving those less fortunate like at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or use your attorney skills to volunteer legal advice to those who cannot afford one, etc. Moreover, leadership experiences are huge pluses.

Regarding the MCAT. Do not consider taking it or start studying it until your finish the science prereqs in your postbacc. Then if you feel you need to pay for an expensive course, then do so. But SDN has resources like schedules from successful SDNers that you can use if you prefer to self-study.

Lastly, you should take 1-3 years to accumulate the necessary EC hours, finishing the postbacc, and studying/taking the MCAT. While doing so, you can start thinking about your personal statement. The personal statement should answer two questions: 1) Who you are and 2) Why medicine? --specifically why you are running towards medicine and not away from law.

SDN's mantra is that journeying to medical school is a marathon, not a sprint. Being 26, you should not worry about getting all the requirements ASAP. Set up a plan of action, check all the boxes needed, and then apply with your best app. Being a reapplicant is a huge hassle and another obstacle that nontrads find harder because you must show improvement. Apply once and once only.

GL!!!!

 

[001002154]

Agree with the above that you don’t need a formal post bacc. Just take the remaining pre reqs and do well.

Make sure you get yourself a good amount of healthcare experience to make sure med is what you want/ think it will be; you don’t want to be in this spot like 7 years from now.

 

[DocJanItor]

@DV-T 's advice is great. In particular, you need to show a solid reason why you want to be a doctor. You said many of the people you admire are in the medical field. That's great, but maybe you just know some particularly great doctors. Believe me, being a doctor doesn't make you a good person. Right now it sounds more like you want to leave law for another "acceptable" profession rather than desiring to specifically become a doctor (dreaming of doing it doesn't count - you need a real world reason like "I want to help people").

Last but not least, unless you are willing to get into a very serious medical post-bacc program (which would be unnecessarily expensive), research is probably off the table for you. It's very difficult to get a research position when you're not associated w/ a program or expected to be there for at least a few years. This is fine, because research isn't really necessary unless you're trying to attend a top tier program. If that's your goal then that's fine, but it will definitely take you more time to get there.

 

[bnc66]

You don't need a formal SMP/postbacc program. They are expensive, and SDN generally advises them for peeps with very low GPAs that need remediation. With your current GPAs, you only need to do a DIY postbacc, by taking prerequisite courses at a 4 year university (you can do CC, but a 4 year univ is preferred because the courses are deemed more rigorous--get A's). To determine what courses are required for the medical schools you are interested in, get a subscription to AAMC's MSAR.

You will need to have ECs. Shadowing a cardiologist is fine, maybe do 10-15 hrs, but you need 50+ hours shadowing a PCP (IM, Peds, OBGYN, FM). Doing research at the hospital is a plus, but you will also need clinical experience with active patient contact like at the ER, hospice, etc. Additionally, you need nonclinical experience serving those less fortunate like at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or use your attorney skills to volunteer legal advice to those who cannot afford one, etc. Moreover, leadership experiences are huge pluses.

Regarding the MCAT. Do not consider taking it or start studying it until your finish the science prereqs in your postbacc. Then if you feel you need to pay for an expensive course, then do so. But SDN has resources like schedules from successful SDNers that you can use if you prefer to self-study.

Lastly, you should take 1-3 years to accumulate the necessary EC hours, finishing the postbacc, and studying/taking the MCAT. While doing so, you can start thinking about your personal statement. The personal statement should answer two questions: 1) Who you are and 2) Why medicine? --specifically why you are running towards medicine and not away from law.

SDN's mantra is that journeying to medical school is a marathon, not a sprint. Being 26, you should not worry about getting all the requirements ASAP. Set up a plan of action, check all the boxes needed, and then apply with your best app. Being a reapplicant is a huge hassle and another obstacle that nontrads find harder because you must show improvement. Apply once and once only.

GL!!!!

Thanks so much! I honestly didnt think anyone would read this, but your advice is great! I know I will definitely have to work a lot on gaining experience in the medical field and demonstrating my dedication. thanks!

 

[bnc66]

Thank you guys so much! So, from replies and from talking to other people, its clear that getting clinical experience/hands-on patient interaction is key (both for confirming that this is something that I want to do and for application purposes)

What kinds of things count as clinical experience? Is that like the scribe program, or volunteering in a hospital? And if you guys have some advice about the types of programs in hospitals/clinics that allow you to work up to this type of work, what they are looking for in volunteers, how to go about finding these opportunities, that would be great!

Just as a side note, I have a lot of family members who are doctors, so if I know the types of programs/volunteer things Im looking for, it shouldnt be too difficult for me to start getting involved.

Thanks again!!!

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Scribing is considered a paid clinical experience as you will be actively shadowing a physician while she interacts with patients. Besides that, you will also need clinical experience that involves ACTIVE patient interactions. If you volunteer in the hospital ER or hospice facility where you engage patients, are able to assist them getting into their beds, touch them, smell them, deal with them at their most stressed and anxiety-filled moments, etc, that would be good clinical experience. Stocking shelves, doing administrative work, copying paper as a volunteer in the hospital will not be considered valid clinical experience.

Each medical facility will determine what qualities it looks for in its volunteers. Best thing to do is to google them around your area, and give the volunteer offices a call. Or speak to your relatives who are doctors and ask them to hook you up with the volunteer coordinators at their respective place of employment.

@Catalystik and @LizzyM can also give you better insight into what also counts as good clinical volunteer positions.

 

[Catalystik]

Im looking to see what kind of volunteer work would be helpful (both for application purposes, and also for just getting back into the medical field and confirming for sure that this is something I want to do) so tips on relevant volunteer work would be great!

The average applicant has about 1.5 years of clinical experience. Most gain this at the rate of 3-4 hours weekly by volunteering to help care for sick or injured people somewhere (free, family-planning, or private clinic, surgicenter, hospice, hospital, VA, Alzheimer's residential home, rehabilitation facility, skilled-level nursing home, among others). Others get their clinical experience through the workplace.

Average shadowing is 50ish hours split among a few types of doc, including primary care. This does not need to be a regular activity and could be acquired intermittently.

Nonmedical community service is another activity that gives strength to an application. I'd also get that going as soon as you can, even if only 1-2 hours weekly, ideally for a cause that you care about; something that serves the poor is a good idea, though other volunteerism is OK. To show your service-minded mentality, consider Humane Society, Habitat for Humanity, crisis hotline, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless shelter. women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for middle school students, teaching ESL to adults, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, Meals on Wheels, or even pro bono legal work. Longevity in this activity is desirable.

Besides these, peer leadership and teaching (mentoring, coaching, tutor) activities benefit you, too.

 

[LizzyM]

Do keep in mind that you do not need to touch patients to have it be a good clinical experince... just being in close proximity is sufficient.
Also keep in mind that the screening process to get access to patient care areas can be lengthly and you should not be surprised if it takes months to jump through the necessary hoops. Some hospitals have a minimum number of hours they expect from a volunteer after the effort invested by the facility to have you screened and trained. Give yourself plenty of lead-time particularly if you are looking for a short-term service opportunity during a summer break.

 

[Goro]

Do keep in mind that you do not need to touch patients to have it be a good clinical experince... just being in close proximity is sufficient.
Also keep in mind that the screening process to get access to patient care areas can be lengthly and you should not be surprised if it takes months to jump through the necessary hoops. Some hospitals have a minimum number of hours they expect from a volunteer after the effort invested by the facility to have you screened and trained. Give yourself plenty of lead-time particularly if you are looking for a short-term service opportunity during a summer break.

To follow up on my learned colleague's advice, not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

 

[frugalphysiciansblog]

Glad to see more career changers on board! I'm a semester into a DIY post-bacc. I've considered the one-year programs as well.

Formal post-bacc
Pros: structured classes (no issues with getting into certain classes or figuring out how to sequence your schedule), committee letter, etc. Essentially reduces (maybe not entirely eliminates) the need to plan. Some will allow you to get from 0 to 100 in a single calendar year which is almost impossible to do with DIY. Most offer linkage programs that allows you to potentially skip the gap year.
Cons: $$$ you're paying for the convenience, courses can be rushed (ie entire semester long classes in 4 weeks), schedule is tough. My biggest concern was having enough time to adequately study and prepare for MCATs. If you finish pre-req's in May and are taking MCATs in June, that doesn't give you much time to prep. I wasn't convinced that the linkage programs were a real option for most candidates - just my impression.

I ended up going with DIY program because it allows me to be in the location as my husband and at a much lower cost. The 2-years of preparation will also give me enough time to amply study for the MCAT and accumulate clinical experience / some research exposure. Ultimately it came down to playing it more "safe". It can be challenging to course correct if your GPA / MCAT are adversely affected by being rushed.

Best of luck!

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

One of my friends and classmates is a JD who did a SMP at LECOM, then got accepted to DO. He is doing well. I don't think he is on SDN or else i would forward you his info.

 

[physgal]

Hi OP! I was a paralegal for 7 years before starting the process. I did a two years masters to prove my investment to medical schools. Some may argue against doing this but I felt like I would have been limited to DO schools if I had not done a Masters. I also was a MA for two years working both in private practice and a community clinic.

I had several schools ask me to relate my experience in the legal field as how I felt it prepared me to work as a doctor. This will come up. Be able to answer this question.

 

[post-bacc]

Hey bnc, you are definitely in the right place. I was in business for several years, worked full-time and did my post-bacc part time, and now I'm in working on my Master's in Biomedicine. For a great patient volunteering experience, check if your local hospitals have a Hospital Elder Life Program (also called HELP). I did this as my experiential before I started my post-bacc to make sure I was on the right track, and it was highly rewarding. The HELP program is designed to reduce delirium in patients ages 70 and older, and will likely involve you making rounds in the hospital as a volunteer and accompanying these patients as they eat to keep them company and engaged mentally.

Feel free to contact me with any questions. Good luck!

 

[bnc66]

Hey bnc, you are definitely in the right place. I was in business for several years, worked full-time and did my post-bacc part time, and now I'm in working on my Master's in Biomedicine. For a great patient volunteering experience, check if your local hospitals have a Hospital Elder Life Program (also called HELP). I did this as my experiential before I started my post-bacc to make sure I was on the right track, and it was highly rewarding. The HELP program is designed to reduce delirium in patients ages 70 and older, and will likely involve you making rounds in the hospital as a volunteer and accompanying these patients as they eat to keep them company and engaged mentally.

Feel free to contact me with any questions. Good luck!

That's a great idea thank you!!

 

[DSM_302.0]

Hi guys!
I know this sounds kind of insane,

Haha, welcome to the nontrad forum. Full of people years / decades into other careers hoping to make the same switch. I think almost all of us can relate to others telling us this isn't the wisest of moves, especially for those of us established in respected, well-paying, meaningful professions.

 

[operaman]

While traditional advice here goes with the marathon over the sprint advice, for someone who’s decided to change careers and already has a good GPA, I don’t see what there is to gain by taking it slow. If you can manage it financially, I highly recommend getting through it as fast as you can while making As.

I did a weird DIY thing where I winged the mcat and then started a DIY post bacc while applying/volunteering/shadowing. This allowed me to eliminate the gap year which was worth it to me but certainly came with some risk. I never considered a formal post bacc given the cost and lag time to get started just based on when I made the decision to do this, but know many people who did them and had great success. For me, my DIY approach gave me a 9-month total from last day of prior career to med school acceptance.

It’s definitely a long haul. Make sure it’s what you really want to do. I’m loving it (currently a pgy3) and have 2-3 more years before I’m an attending. That said, make sure it’s for you because I can imagine this would really suck if I didn’t like it. Much like you felt in law school, there’s definitely a point where you feel like you’ve crossed the Rubicon and there’s no turning back. Not a big deal if you’re in the right place, but If you’re unhappy it could be especially soul crushing.

 

[kidthor]

OP - I went to and graduated from law school, did the SMP at Georgetown after one unsuccessful application cycle (I had a high MCAT and a mediocre science GPA), then went to and finished med school, residency, fellowship - and recently started as an attending. It's a long road with diminishing rewards (salaries are going down, there's more and more paperwork, and there's a surge in midlevels who claim equivalence to you for the same "job"). A lot of my peers are partners at law firms or senior general counsels - they've got nice houses, nice cars, kids, and no more student loan debt. I've got lots of debt, live in a modest apartment, and drive a 16 year old car. But, I enjoy being a doctor and literally saving lives on occasion. It's a serious trade off in any event.

What kind of lawyer are you? Is part of the badness the practice type and setup? I remember dread at the thought of being stuck in a corporate office slaving away for the man. But it could be fun to be part of a small firm or to be an expert in a unique field (trusts and estates? maritime? criminal?). So I'd consider whether you're just in the wrong field or the wrong setup.

Are you absolutely set that you need to be a doctor? Could you also be happy being a nurse, nurse practitioner, PA, CRNA, or a hospital administrator? These are all good paths too with less financial and time investment required.

Also what state are you in? It's a lot easier to get into state schools if you're in TX, OH, NY, PA, etc... and very hard to get into them from CA (where I was from). And state schools are your best bet, if you've got access to them.

I suppose like others said you need to do some sort of shadowing and volunteering. Shadowing and clinical exposure make sense as a prerequisite because you see what goes on in medicine. The volunteering thing always bothered me because I think it's a waste of time as a "requirement" - as you're just checking off a box. And I don't think it makes for a good physician. But I suppose you've got to check off that box too...