Back to masks for us

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I think some SDNers have a hard time grasping with the possibility that covid is very likely endemic and is here to stay forever. Mask mandates being indefinite forever is an unrealistic expectation. There will be covid variants and people will still be hospitalized and die from covid even several years from now. This is difficult to accept but it's inevitable.

What we instead need is regular covid vaccinations that are taken at least annually

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Eventually, enough people will become infected and/or lose loved ones that the vast majority will get vaccinated. I mean, do you really think 10 years from now, ICUs will be completely filled with Covid patients? Of course not.
Exactly when is eventually and what is enough? Because i think that ship has long sailed if 36+ million infections and 600K deaths aren't enough to convince unvaccinated to get vaccinated or even mask up.

Also 70% has one shot and a majority is fully vaccinated already. Vaccinations for kids 11 and younger are happening in near future and increasingly places are enforcing vaccine mandates.
 
Was I trying to be deceptive about political leanings? When one political party has firmly planted its feet in the well of delusions, conspiracy theories, and paranoia, it's fair to say the political leanings of the rest of us should be obvious. And make no mistake, my opinion is based on science and public health, not politics. To suggest otherwise just because you don't agree with my opinion is dismissive and ridiculous.
This is not about paranoia or conspiracy. Liberty has value. Some people place a higher value on that than others. Even to the most extreme collectivists, a life of complete safety would be a sacrifice too great. A police/surveillance state has the potential to be very safe and might prevent a lot of death or suffering. But, at least to most Americans, that would be no way to live. Some people feel that the decision of whether to wear a mask is a personal choice, even if they would personally decide to wear one in many situations. This is completely reasonable, even if you don’t agree with it.

This also has less to do with party affiliation and more to do with collectivism vs individualism. It’s not like there’s a clear empirical answer to the question of how much one should weight personal freedom in comparison to mandates for the collective good. It’s not entirely obvious that care for the welfare of others is a more important moral principle than respect for others’ autonomy.

I’m not suggesting this because I disagree with you. I’m suggesting this because, fundamentally, this is the case for everyone with an opinion on this issue. Science actually has a limited role in this policy discussion. Science can’t actually give us an answer to what policy is best. That is a matter of personal moral interpretation and preferences. I find it frustrating that some people pretend that being against a mask mandate is merely a byproduct ignorance or scientific illiteracy. Really, it is just the result of the fact that not everyone shares your values.

Not now while it's still raging and there is no optimal treatment. Eventually, enough people will become infected and/or lose loved ones that the vast majority will get vaccinated. I mean, do you really think 10 years from now, ICUs will be completely filled with Covid patients? Of course not.

I don’t think that this will happen, but not for the reason you suggest. At some point, COVID will have infected most of those who haven’t been vaccinated. The resulting natural immunity will reduce transmission. Some transmission will still happen, but the severity of cases will, on average, be low. Some people will continue to die of COVID every year but that will be something that we live with and expect, like deaths from flu.
 
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The issue lies in what's the point of being vaccinated if masks are here to stay since it's effectively no different from pre-vaccine covid era in 2020. The people being hospitalized are overwhelmingly unvaccinated and less likely to wear masks

Vaccines offer more protection than masks… I know you know that.
So get vaxxed to protect yourself and those who can’t get it.
Wear masks to still lower transmission even if vaxxed
 
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You keep misunderstanding the point, which is the issue here. A mask mandate on top of vaccines is redundant if the vaccines themselves protect against spread of infections.


I mean it's clear where your stance lies if you think CDC's assessment based on incomplete data from one place that isn't geographically representative and could very well be an anomaly is reasonable

I'm not misunderstanding the point. Your point is confusing, contradictory, and frankly, a tad ridiculous. You're making assertions no one made. You're contradicting yourself in this thread. You're jumping on the Provincetown outbreak, declaring it inaccurate, and using that declaration to substantiate your erroneous assertion. What you fail to recognize is that many people disagree with the article you posted and the facts of Provincetown don't change, even if it's premature to reach a conclusion strong enough to change policy. There was an outbreak. Of those infected 70 something percent were vaccinated.
 
The issue lies in what's the point of being vaccinated if masks are here to stay since it's effectively no different from pre-vaccine covid era in 2020. The people being hospitalized are overwhelmingly unvaccinated and less likely to wear masks

You have to be trolling because there's just no way you're not understanding what's being said.
 
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This is not about paranoia or conspiracy. Liberty has value. Some people place a higher value on that than others. Even to the most extreme collectivists, a life of complete safety would be a sacrifice too great. A police/surveillance state has the potential to be very safe and might prevent a lot of death or suffering. But, at least to most Americans, that would be no way to live. Some people feel that the decision of whether to wear a mask is a personal choice, even if they would personally decide to wear one in many situations. This is completely reasonable, even if you don’t agree with it.

This also has less to do with party affiliation and more to do with collectivism vs individualism. It’s not like there’s a clear empirical answer to the question of how much one should weight personal freedom in comparison to mandates for the collective good. It’s not entirely obvious that care for the welfare of others is a more important moral principle than respect for others’ autonomy.

I’m not suggesting this because I disagree with you. I’m suggesting this because, fundamentally, this is the case for everyone with an opinion on this issue. Science actually has a limited role in this policy discussion. Science can’t actually give us an answer to what policy is best. That is a matter of personal moral interpretation and preferences. I find it frustrating that some people pretend that being against a mask mandate is merely a byproduct ignorance or scientific illiteracy. Really, it is just the result of the fact that not everyone shares your values.


You're not allowed to smoke on a plane because it endangers everyone on the plane. You're not allowed to blast your music at 3 am because you'd likely be breaking a sound ordinance in your city. In some states, you can't light fireworks in your lawn because it might cause a fire. You're forced to abide by speed limits for the safety of the cars and pedestrians around you. You're not allowed to drink and drive because of the harm you cause others. We do things All.The.Time for the good of society. There are a lot of things that could easily be argued are "personal choice" that we realize aren't really personal choice when they affect our neighbors. Freedom and choice has become a battle cry for the entitled to skirt responsibility to society.
 
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Vaccines offer more protection than masks… I know you know that.
So get vaxxed to protect yourself and those who can’t get it.
Wear masks to still lower transmission even if vaxxed
"To still lower transmission" is the thing here that makes mandating masking again for vaccinated a bit excessive. Vaccines themselves have been shown to reduce transmission for months now (to near zero) that requiring mask wearing on top is redundant other than the feeling of being safe. The problem is covid vaccines are no longer believed to prevent the spread of infections which is why the mask mandates have returned

The issue is a complete failure in government policy in not being able to persuade enough people to be vaccinated, not that wearing masks on top of being vaccinated makes sense. There's also a major inconsistency in CDC messaging that undermines confidence in both masks and vaccines.

Instead of enforcing mask mandates outside of medical and public transportation areas (which are the only places where a mask mandate regardless of vaccination status is reasonable), we should be enforcing vaccine mandates everywhere.

I'm not misunderstanding the point. Your point is confusing, contradictory, and frankly, a tad ridiculous. You're making assertions no one made. You're contradicting yourself in this thread. You're jumping on the Provincetown outbreak, declaring it inaccurate, and using that declaration to substantiate your erroneous assertion. What you fail to recognize is that many people disagree with the article you posted and the facts of Provincetown don't change, even if it's premature to reach a conclusion strong enough to change policy. There was an outbreak. Of those infected 70 something percent were vaccinated.
My point is simple but you have an agenda in mind and refuse to budge. I'm making no contradictions here. You're claiming the CDC guidelines are reasonable when they aren't because the data used are incomplete and misleading (which includes the misinterpretation of Provincetown data and the stubborn assumption that viral load necessarily means infectivity). The CDC themselves are realizing the contradiction and difficulty in messaging that's undermining confidence in both masks and vaccines. I'm also pushing for vaccine mandates everywhere since even CDC views the latest surge to be pandemic of unvaccinated. Addressing the problem of vaccine hesitancy accomplishes more things than mandating vaccinated people to mask up by saying vaccines don't prevent spread of infections

You have to be trolling because there's just no way you're not understanding what's being said.
No i understand but it's clear i'm working with dogmatic people here who dismiss valid sources contradicting their claims as baselessly false. I said before many times that mask mandates in medical settings are reasonable and mask mandates in general are not but you keep missing that point and viewing it as contradictory. I keep saying CDC messaging was inconsistent, contradictory and even premature, all of which are true even by admission of leading experts within CDC itself. It makes no sense on CDC's standpoint to get rid of masks for vaccinated few months ago with no way to validate vaccination status and with delta variant on the rise and its devastating effects known only to reverse the guidelines few months later.

If the CDC never got rid of the mask mandates in the first place, there wouldn't be an issue here. If governments and companies enforced vaccine mandates months ago, we wouldn't be having a covid surge here. It's the policy failure that's causing the problem not that vaccines suddenly can't prevent covid transmission
 
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Lawpy, I’m telling you as a doctor treating patients on the front line, vaccines do not prevent transmission. I’ve had several outbreaks among only vaccinated communities, vaccinated to vaccinated person spread just as bad as in my unvaccinated communities. They seem to be holding strong against hospitalization, but that data is changing daily and we shouldn’t bet on that.

The reality is we don’t know where this is headed. We are hopeful that the vaccines will at least remain useful at preventing severe disease, death, and chronic disease, but we just don’t have the data for the that with the new delta variant.

The best thing to do is to have people mask up to help prevent spread until we know more. This isn’t black and white, I want the vaccines to be 100% effective more than anything but you need to be realistic here about what’s actually happening.
 
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Lawpy, I’m telling you as a doctor treating patients on the front line, vaccines do not prevent transmission. I’ve had several outbreaks among only vaccinated communities, vaccinated to vaccinated person spread just as bad as in my unvaccinated communities. They seem to be holding strong against hospitalization, but that data is changing daily and we shouldn’t bet on that.

The reality is we don’t know where this is headed. We are hopeful that the vaccines will at least remain useful at preventing severe disease, death, and chronic disease, but we just don’t have the data for the that with the new delta variant.

The best thing to do is to have people mask up to help prevent spread until we know more. This isn’t black and white, I want the vaccines to be 100% effective more than anything but you need to be realistic here about what’s actually happening.
If vaccines don't prevent transmission, it severely hurts vaccine confidence and strengthens hesitancy. The people who aren't vaccinated yet will be even less willing to be vaccinated by thinking vaccines won't work and the current problems would worsen. Unvaccinated people are also already significantly unwilling to mask up anyways. It's a lose lose situation all around.

Like i said before, it's the policy failure that's directly causing the problem. The governments failed to persuade enough people to be vaccinated. Vaccine mandates should've been enforced months ago. The CDC should not have gotten rid of mask guidelines for vaccinated in May when delta variant was starting to rise. If it's true vaccines no longer prevent the transmission, it's those 3 factors that should be blamed. The vaccines in meantime should be upgraded.
 
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You're not allowed to smoke on a plane because it endangers everyone on the plane. You're not allowed to blast your music at 3 am because you'd likely be breaking a sound ordinance in your city. In some states, you can't light fireworks in your lawn because it might cause a fire. You're forced to abide by speed limits for the safety of the cars and pedestrians around you. You're not allowed to drink and drive because of the harm you cause others. We do things All.The.Time for the good of society. There are a lot of things that could easily be argued are "personal choice" that we realize aren't really personal choice when they affect our neighbors. Freedom and choice has become a battle cry for the entitled to skirt responsibility to society.
Of course there are limits to personal freedom. I don’t think anybody is arguing there aren’t. You’re making it out like everyone who thinks mask mandates go too far is some sort of anarchist.

Still, there are many issues of collective safety versus individual liberty about which reasonable people can disagree. Gun rights, mass surveillance, and protection of hate speech are some examples. Mask mandates are just another. Everybody has their threshold beyond which they consider the limitation on freedom to be too great.

Some people place a high value on individual liberty. How can you pretend to know with certainty that the value they place on this is wrong?

Also, it is not as if the individualists are necessarily selfish or “entitled.” They care about other people, they just happen to think that caring about other people involves greater concern for other individuals than for collective groups. The individualist doesn’t just want their freedoms. They want everybody to have freedom. It’s not as if the person who disagrees with a mask mandate necessarily believes that the marginal diminution of their freedom outstrips the entire potential collective good of mask mandates. They just believe that the sum diminution of everyone’s freedom outstrips that collective good.
 
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Wow, this went much worse than even my cynical self would have thought.

Let's review:

1. No, the vaccines are not 100% protective against COVID in general and the Delta variant specifically.
2. They do, however, decrease the risk of infection and transmission compared to being unvaccinated.
3. They also do still appear very effective and preventing hospitalization and death.
4. We can't just say "screw the unvaccinated" because they are the ones filling up our hospitals in hard hit areas. This means the MI/CVA/Trauma patients are also getting screwed.
5. Its just a freaking mask. I don't like wearing it either, but if I (and my then 4 year old kids) can wear them at Disney World outside in September everyone can wear them indoors. The risk/benefit math skews heavily toward benefit because the risk or wearing a mask is utterly insignificant for 99% of people.
 
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Wow, this went much worse than even my cynical self would have thought.

Let's review:

1. No, the vaccines are not 100% protective against COVID in general and the Delta variant specifically.
2. They do, however, decrease the risk of infection and transmission compared to being unvaccinated.
3. They also do still appear very effective and preventing hospitalization and death.
4. We can't just say "screw the unvaccinated" because they are the ones filling up our hospitals in hard hit areas. This means the MI/CVA/Trauma patients are also getting screwed.
5. Its just a freaking mask. I don't like wearing it either, but if I (and my then 4 year old kids) can wear them at Disney World outside in September everyone can wear them indoors. The risk/benefit math skews heavily toward benefit because the risk or wearing a mask is utterly insignificant for 99% of people.
The issue is with the mask mandates, not volunteering to wear a mask. I'm willing to wear a mask too but i'm against most mask mandates. The unvaccinated problem is a consequence of policy failure. Mask mandates arose from CDC's inconsistent messaging and guidelines (why would they get rid of masks prematurely in May if delta was on the rise? There would be little to no issue if they never changed their guidelines in the first place.)
 
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Wow, this went much worse than even my cynical self would have thought.

Let's review:

1. No, the vaccines are not 100% protective against COVID in general and the Delta variant specifically.
2. They do, however, decrease the risk of infection and transmission compared to being unvaccinated.
3. They also do still appear very effective and preventing hospitalization and death.
4. We can't just say "screw the unvaccinated" because they are the ones filling up our hospitals in hard hit areas. This means the MI/CVA/Trauma patients are also getting screwed.
5. Its just a freaking mask. I don't like wearing it either, but if I (and my then 4 year old kids) can wear them at Disney World outside in September everyone can wear them indoors. The risk/benefit math skews heavily toward benefit because the risk or wearing a mask is utterly insignificant for 99% of people.
There are many people, including myself, who would voluntarily wear a mask in high risk situations but disagree with mask mandates. This is not about feeling burdened by wearing a mask. It is about feeling burdened by being told by the government that you must wear a mask or face legal penalties.
 
You keep misunderstanding the point, which is the issue here. A mask mandate on top of vaccines is redundant if the vaccines themselves protect against spread of infections.


I mean it's clear where your stance lies if you think CDC's assessment based on incomplete data from one place that isn't geographically representative and could very well be an anomaly is reasonable
There's terrible data out right now, I'm sure the % of breakthrough infections is much higher than what is being put out there. Not sure what the big deal on wearing a mask is. I guess if you have so much of a problem with it you can just quit med school.
 
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If vaccines don't prevent transmission, it severely hurts vaccine confidence and strengthens hesitancy. The people who aren't vaccinated yet will be even less willing to be vaccinated by thinking vaccines won't work and the current problems would worsen.
Yes which is why they're not putting out more accurate data. At this point its so politicized and the public is so dumb that we can't even talk about this from a scientific standpoint any longer.
 
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There's terrible data out right now, I'm sure the % of breakthrough infections is much higher than what is being put out there. Not sure what the big deal on wearing a mask is. I guess if you have so much of a problem with it you can just quit med school.
Come on man, i feel i'm speaking to a wall. I said, many, many times, i'm ok wearing masks and support mask mandates in medical settings, which include med schools, yet you and Mass Effect keep ignoring this to mean i'm against all mask mandates or masks bad.
 
My point is simple but you have an agenda in mind and refuse to budge. I'm making no contradictions here.

You contradict yourself all the time, but it's most prevalent in threads like this. You want yet another example?

You posted this at 7:50 this morning:
"To still lower transmission" is the thing here that makes mandating masking again for vaccinated a bit excessive. Vaccines themselves have been shown to reduce transmission for months now (to near zero) that requiring mask wearing on top is redundant other than the feeling of being safe."

Then, 55 minutes ago, you posted this:
"The CDC should not have gotten rid of mask guidelines for vaccinated in May when delta variant was starting to rise."

Half the time, I think you don't actually have an opinion. You just post whatever you want when you feel like it and then forget what you posted previously.
 
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You contradict yourself all the time, but it's most prevalent in threads like this. You want yet another example?

You posted this at 7:50 this morning:
"To still lower transmission" is the thing here that makes mandating masking again for vaccinated a bit excessive. Vaccines themselves have been shown to reduce transmission for months now (to near zero) that requiring mask wearing on top is redundant other than the feeling of being safe."

Then, 55 minutes ago, you posted this:
"The CDC should not have gotten rid of mask guidelines for vaccinated in May when delta variant was starting to rise."

Half the time, I think you don't actually have an opinion. You just post whatever you want when you feel like it and then forget what you posted previously.
That's not a contradiction if you're paying attention to the timeline. Getting rid of masks in May when only a small fraction of population was fully vaccinated IS premature and wrong
 
You're claiming the CDC guidelines are reasonable when they aren't because the data used are incomplete and misleading (which includes the misinterpretation of Provincetown data and the stubborn assumption that viral load necessarily means infectivity).

That is your opinion, not a fact. No one has the facts regarding this because it's too new, which ironically, is exactly what the article you keep citing states in plain English. Your insisting that it's a fact is yet again directly contradicting what it's saying.

No i understand but it's clear i'm working with dogmatic people here who dismiss valid sources contradicting their claims as baselessly false. I said before many times that mask mandates in medical settings are reasonable and mask mandates in general are not but you keep missing that point and viewing it as contradictory

You are contradicting yourself as pointed out numerous times. There are no valid sources telling me that masking will cause harm or that masking won't help. Not a single one. So nah, no "valid sources contradicting" my claims.

If the CDC never got rid of the mask mandates in the first place, there wouldn't be an issue here

So because the CDC got rid of the mask mandates, they don't get to reverse that position at all because if they did, then the sky would fall and it would be the apocalypse? Perhaps it was getting rid of mask mandates that was premature, not bringing them back?
 
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If mask guidelines were unchanged in May + vaccine mandates enforced everywhere, the delta variant would not be as significant a threat now and the % of US population fully vaccinated would be at least 70%

Getting rid of mask guidelines when most people were unvaccinated undermined trust in both masks and vaccines. It's less about having vaccinated people mask up (which was already a true assumption then) and more about getting unvaccinated to vaccinate.

The guidelines now are showing vaccines don't work to prevent infections and vaccinated should mask up, which is where the contention lies
 
Half the time, I think you don't actually have an opinion. You just post whatever you want when you feel like it and then forget what you posted previously.
It's not that he forgets. The point is just to be anti-authority, and I'm not saying that as an insult. There's too much information for people out there. The internet is destroying us.
 
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That is your opinion, not a fact. No one has the facts regarding this because it's too new, which ironically, is exactly what the article you keep citing states in plain English. Your insisting that it's a fact is yet again directly contradicting what it's saying.

The article quotes a former CDC director saying there's no one to one relationship between viral load and infectivity


You are contradicting yourself as pointed out numerous times. There are no valid sources telling me that masking will cause harm or that masking won't help. Not a single one. So nah, no "valid sources contradicting" my claims.

Being against mask mandates doesn't mean masks are bad. Voluntary masking is allowed and encouraged.

So because the CDC got rid of the mask mandates, they don't get to reverse that position at all because if they did, then the sky would fall and it would be the apocalypse? Perhaps it was getting rid of mask mandates that was premature, not bringing them back?

We finally agree one thing that CDC getting rid of masks in May was premature and wrong

They brought the mask mandates back on the argument that vaccines don't prevent infections. It's that argument where i take major issue with since it undermines the vaccines.
 
Guys, Lawpy is a bot created by SDN to drum up content and traffic. I'm only half-kidding.
 
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It's not that he forgets. The point is just to be anti-authority, and I'm not saying that as an insult. There's too much information for people out there. The internet is destroying us.
No i'm pro authority in covid response but i am slamming the CDC for being an inconsistent mess. I support vaccine mandates everywhere which is as pro authority as you can get. But i also know the government response was inadequate because they failed to persuade enough people to be vaccinated or even promoted antivax propaganda in some states
 
5. Its just a freaking mask. I don't like wearing it either, but if I (and my then 4 year old kids) can wear them at Disney World outside in September everyone can wear them indoors.
Here we go again. Masks have degraded the quality of life for many. It may not be the case for you and your 4 yo kids and it may not be the case for the vast majority, but please don't disregard others' experiences, especially those with special needs. I personally know of people who switched to home schooling, in part, due to the difficulties imposed on masking their kids. That I continue to get pushback on this point on a medical forum is very concerning to me.

I posted on this thread to sincerely try to learn more about the effectiveness of masks on children and all I hear is "not a problem for me or my kids so shouldn't be for anyone." This is not science, folks.
 
Of course there are limits to personal freedom. I don’t think anybody is arguing there aren’t.

So where do those limits to personal freedom end? Why is it ok to say you can't blast your music at 3 am, but not ok to say wear a mask when you go to the grocery store? What's the difference?

You’re making it out like everyone who thinks mask mandates go too far is some sort of anarchist

I don't think they're an anarchist. I think anyone who thinks mask mandates go too far is selfish.

Still, there are many issues of collective safety versus individual liberty about which reasonable people can disagree. Gun rights, mass surveillance, and protection of hate speech are some examples. Mask mandates are just another. Everybody has their threshold beyond which they consider the limitation on freedom to be too great

The above is all common sense and no one said otherwise. I'm not sure what your point is except to say "everyone has an opinion"?

Some people place a high value on individual liberty. How can you pretend to know with certainty that the value they place on this is wrong?

I can claim with certainty that the value they place on this is wrong because we know that masks reduce transmission of Covid. We know this. It's a fact. There is no harm in wearing a mask for the overwhelming majority of people. So when something causes you no harm and, in turn, helps others, possibly even saves lives, prevents lockdowns, and allows us to get a leg up on a disease that's paralyzed the country for over a year, I can say definitively you are wrong for placing higher value on individual liberty. It's like me saying "I'm going to drive 75 mph in a school zone because I place a high value on individual liberty and **** those school kids!"

Also, it is not as if the individualists are necessarily selfish or “entitled.”

Yes, they are.

They care about other people, they just happen to think that caring about other people involves greater concern for other individuals than for collective groups. The individualist doesn’t just want their freedoms. They want everybody to have freedom

I'm not going to turn this into a philosophical debate because it's not. It's a debate about a very specific thing at a very specific point in history for a very specific reason.

It’s not as if the person who disagrees with a mask mandate necessarily believes that the marginal diminution of their freedom outstrips the entire potential collective good of mask mandates. They just believe that the sum diminution of everyone’s freedom outstrips that collective good

Don't believe this for a second and even if true, it's a ridiculous way to look at this. The "sum diminution of everyone's freedom" for putting a mask on? Give me a break.
 
There are many people, including myself, who would voluntarily wear a mask in high risk situations but disagree with mask mandates. This is not about feeling burdened by wearing a mask. It is about feeling burdened by being told by the government that you must wear a mask or face legal penalties.

Wait, wait, wait, who mentioned legal penalties?
 
I personally know of people who switched to home schooling, in part, due to the difficulties imposed on masking their kids.
I personally know of people who have died of COVID, in part 2/2 difficulties imposed on them by SARS.
 
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Would have expected this forum to look different considering who's posting on it but this is no different than a facebook comment board, everyone put down your phone and go outside.
 
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Come on man, i feel i'm speaking to a wall. I said, many, many times, i'm ok wearing masks and support mask mandates in medical settings, which include med schools, yet you and Mass Effect keep ignoring this to mean i'm against all mask mandates or masks bad.

You are literally saying you're against mask mandates, even though you'll wear one. Like wtf? You're the only one misrepresenting you.
 
No i'm pro authority in covid response but i am slamming the CDC for being an inconsistent mess. I support vaccine mandates everywhere which is as pro authority as you can get. But i also know the government response was inadequate because they failed to persuade enough people to be vaccinated or even promoted antivax propaganda in some states
So you hate the government and now are rooting for the virus out of spite?
 
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You are literally saying you're against mask mandates, even though you'll wear one. Like wtf? You're the only one misrepresenting you.
Voluntary masking is a thing. Why is this ignored? I'm against being forced to wear a mask unless it's in a medical setting (and even then i always mask up in medical settings)
 
The article quotes a former CDC director saying there's no one to one relationship between viral load and infectivity

And many disagree with that. And many others say we just don't know yet. But this is the problem. You latch on to one source because it agrees with your opinion and you latch onto it to the exclusion of everything and everyone else.

They brought the mask mandates back on the argument that vaccines don't prevent infections. It's that argument where i take major issue with since it undermines the vaccines

If you disagree with the framing of the policy, then disagree with the framing of the policy. But you've disagreed with the policy itself numerous times.
 
No i'm rooting for the vaccines and i think the mess of CDC is working to the virus's favor
But people aren't getting vaccines and the virus will mutate among them. In fact, its mutating to the point that it's making vaccines less effective. What else can we do to mitigate this outside of masking? Because you'd rather force masks than force vaccines, right?
 
But people aren't getting vaccines and the virus will mutate among them. In fact, its mutating to the point that it's making vaccines less effective. What else can we do to mitigate this outside of masking? Because you'd rather force masks than force vaccines, right?
Delta came from India and Lambda (which looks like the next big bad) came from S. America. Mask/vaccine mandates will never ever stop the virus from mutating and infecting people.

If the vaccines don’t prevent transmission and infection, the only endgame that makes sense is that CoV-2 infects everyone eventually.
 
And many disagree with that. And many others say we just don't know yet. But this is the problem. You latch on to one source because it agrees with your opinion and you latch onto it to the exclusion of everything and everyone else.



If you disagree with the framing of the policy, then disagree with the framing of the policy. But you've disagreed with the policy itself numerous times.
I know, this is the fundamental disagreement here. I think vaccines can prevent infections and breakthrough infections are exaggerated and not enough to justify vaccinated people to mask up. I know you and several others disagree and think vaccines no longer do a good job preventing infections/transmissions, which is why masking is necessary.

I think we need more than just few isolated cases of breakthrough infections. The israel data is closest enough to justify masking for vaccinated but i want to see the situation better in US

But people aren't getting vaccines and the virus will mutate among them. In fact, its mutating to the point that it's making vaccines less effective. What else can we do to mitigate this outside of masking? Because you'd rather force masks than force vaccines, right?
I support vaccine mandates everywhere. This should be the top priority because the unvaccinated is driving the surge and making the delta variant worse.

Yes the CDC should not have gotten rid of masks in May. That was premature and wrong. But unless the vaccinated start being increasingly symptomatic (like in Israel case) and start appearing in hospitals in increasing amounts, requiring them to mask up is also premature
 
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Here we go again. Masks have degraded the quality of life for many. It may not be the case for you and your 4 yo kids and it may not be the case for the vast majority, but please don't disregard others' experiences, especially those with special needs.

I am not opposed to accomodations for special needs kids, but please explain how masks have "degraded the quality of life for many"? Whenever I hear this, it turns out that people just find them annoying, but in reality, quality of life was not degraded in any way. Using phrases like that that actually have meaning in medicine is not cool. You know what really degrades quality of life? Having Covid.

I personally know of people who switched to home schooling, in part, due to the difficulties imposed on masking their kids. That I continue to get pushback on this point on a medical forum is very concerning to me

You're getting pushback because what you're saying is really not true. It doesn't degrade quality of life. What it does is upset people because it's annoying, but being annoying is not the same as degrading quality of life. And you use hyperbolic language that those of us who are actually doctors will squash because these words and phrases have very specific meanings in medicine. When you use words like "suffer" and phrases like "degrading quality of life" it's clear that your frame of reference is very skewed. Ask yourself, why are doctors who are actually treating Covid patients disagreeing with me and think about it critically.
 
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I know, this is the fundamental disagreement here. I think vaccines can prevent infections and breakthrough infections are exaggerated and not enough to justify vaccinated people to mask up. I know you and several others disagree and think vaccines no longer do a good job preventing infections/transmissions, which is why masking is necessary.

I think we need more than just few isolated cases of breakthrough infections. The israel data is closest enough to justify masking for vaccinated but i want to see the situation better in US


I support vaccine mandates everywhere. This should be the top priority because the unvaccinated is driving the surge and making the delta variant worse.

Yes the CDC should not have gotten rid of masks in May. That was premature and wrong. But unless the vaccinated start being increasingly symptomatic (like in Israel case) and start appearing in hospitals in increasing amounts, requiring them to mask up is also premature

So you went on and on for pages and you don't understand the point of masks? Masking isn't to protect yourself, in most cases. It's to protect others. It's always been that way. Even before Covid. You show up to the hospital with the flu back in 2018, you'd have to wear a mask so that others don't catch the flu. To suggest that mandating masks shouldn't be a thing because not enough vaccinated people get sick is very short-sighted and misses a very important fundamental point.
 
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So you went on and on for pages and you don't understand the point of masks? Masking isn't to protect yourself, in most cases. It's to protect others. It's always been that way. Even before Covid. You show up to the hospital with the flu back in 2018, you'd have to wear a mask so that others don't catch the flu. To suggest that mandating masks shouldn't be a thing because not enough vaccinated people get sick is very short-sighted and misses a very important fundamental point.
Vaccines also protect others because they prevent the spread of the virus. Apparently you think vaccines don't prevent transmission or infection, which is where the disagreement lies. And masks only do a good job preventing spread and protecting others if they're actually worn properly, which in many cases isn't true
 
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Of course there are limits to personal freedom. I don’t think anybody is arguing there aren’t. You’re making it out like everyone who thinks mask mandates go too far is some sort of anarchist.

Still, there are many issues of collective safety versus individual liberty about which reasonable people can disagree. Gun rights, mass surveillance, and protection of hate speech are some examples. Mask mandates are just another. Everybody has their threshold beyond which they consider the limitation on freedom to be too great.

Some people place a high value on individual liberty. How can you pretend to know with certainty that the value they place on this is wrong?

Also, it is not as if the individualists are necessarily selfish or “entitled.” They care about other people, they just happen to think that caring about other people involves greater concern for other individuals than for collective groups. The individualist doesn’t just want their freedoms. They want everybody to have freedom. It’s not as if the person who disagrees with a mask mandate necessarily believes that the marginal diminution of their freedom outstrips the entire potential collective good of mask mandates. They just believe that the sum diminution of everyone’s freedom outstrips that collective good.
Are you in my head or something? I think your the first person I've heard to intelligently communicate what is at the heart of the divide for most matters related to covid
 
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I am not opposed to accomodations for special needs kids, but please explain how masks have "degraded the quality of life for many"? Whenever I hear this, it turns out that people just find them annoying, but in reality, quality of life was not degraded in any way.
Thus proving my point. You have no regard for other's experiences. I gave real-world examples but yet you categorize them as people simply finding masks annoying? Who the heck are you to judge what one considers as merely annoying vs. so annoying that they no longer find ANY joy in activities to the degree that don't participate any longer? Who the heck are you to tell me my own kid, who suffered from depression as a result, has not actually suffered? Did they have to get covid to get your sympathy?
Using phrases like that that actually have meaning in medicine is not cool. You know what really degrades quality of life? Having Covid.
This is silly. So nothing degrades life unless it's bad as having covid? Please. My usage of the term should have been clear. I was in no way comparing "annoying" mask wearing with people who "suffer" from covid. Please quit using these strawmen arguments.
You're getting pushback because what you're saying is really not true. It doesn't degrade quality of life.
This is your opinion which is contrary to my own experience. Even if I'm n=1, it's still doesn't make it not true. Your dismissive attitude is not becoming of someone in humanity much less medicine. It's this controlling, almost authoritarian, attitude contributes to why many people care questioning your ilk's real motivations.
 
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Thus proving my point. You have no regard for other's experiences. I gave real-world examples but yet you categorize them as people simply finding masks annoying? Who the heck are you to judge what one considers as merely annoying vs. so annoying that they no longer find ANY joy in activities to the degree that don't participate any longer? Who the heck are you to tell me my own kid, who suffered from depression as a result, has not actually suffered? Did they have to get covid to get your sympathy?

This is silly. So nothing degrades life unless it's bad as having covid? Please. My usage of the term should have been clear. I was in no way comparing "annoying" mask wearing with people who "suffer" from covid. Please quit using these strawmen arguments.

This is your opinion which is contrary to my own experience. Even if I'm n=1, it's still doesn't make it not true. Your dismissive attitude is not becoming of someone in humanity much less medicine. It's this controlling, almost authoritarian, attitude contributes to why many people care questioning your ilk's real motivations.
He was just making the point that you’re a hyperbolic drama queen, which you’re continuing to illustrate.
 
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He was just making the point that you’re a hyperbolic drama queen, which you’re continuing to illustrate.
Another dismissive medical professional with a ad hominem retort? Lovely.
 
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