Be ahead of the curve

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/06/15/blackrock-close-to-filing-bitcoin-etf-source/

BlackRock Close to Filing For Bitcoin ETF Application: Source
BlackRock will be using Coinbase (COIN) Custody for the ETF and the crypto exchange’s spot market data for pricing, the source said.
By Ian Allison
AccessTimeIconJun 15, 2023 at 9:01 a.m. EDT
Updated Jun 15, 2023 at 9:14 a.m. EDT
BLACKROCK headquarters (Shutterstock)
BLACKROCK headquarters (Shutterstock)
BlackRock, the world's biggest asset manager, is close to filing an application for a Bitcoin ETF (exchange traded fund), according to a person familiar with the matter.
BlackRock will be using Coinbase (COIN) Custody for the ETF and the crypto exchange’s spot market data for pricing, the person said. Coinbase declined to comment.
BlackRock began working with Coinbase to make crypto directly available to institutional investors midway through last year.

It wasn't clear if the ETF will be spot or futures. BlackRock did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
To date, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which oversees ETFs in the U.S., has rejected every application for a spot bitcoin ETF, though it has approved several bitcoin futures ETFs for trading.

Don’t fall for the banana in the tailpipe trick. Clear out the innovators and those who took risks to build up the industry to 1 trillion, for the big boys to take it over and collect fees on you. Black Rock manages $10,000,000,000,000.00 in assets and now all of a sudden wants to form a Bitcoin ETF? I wonder if these are the type of people who some people have a “problem” with.

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[pgg]

My thoughts on BTC are well documented, but the ETF idea seems ridiculous to me. Except maybe as a way to sucker in new retail money to prop up prices in another round of pumping.

I wouldn't buy a crypto ETF as a currency hedge any more than I'd buy a gold ETF to do the same. If I wanted to day trade and try to extract some profit from volatility, maybe. But if the goal is to own an asset to diversify away from dollars, why on earth would you invest in a digital stand-in for a digital commodity. Own the real thing directly and be done with it.

Clear out the innovators and those who took risks to build up the industry to 1 trillion, for the big boys to take it over and collect fees on you.

Heh

What's actually happening is the big boys are sad they didn't take part in the early fleecing of naive retail FOMO crypto investors, and want to elevate the fleecing to their usual levels by making it as easy as buying an ETF. Extracting wealth from new groups of suckers is what crypto is for, after all. 🙂

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

You may find it difficult in the future to avoid crypto in the future as more publicly traded companies, funds, asset managers, pensions and sovereign wealth funds continue to dip their toes (and in some cases go in head first) into the space. Hong Kong, UAE, presidential candidates, etc to name a few. You hate it. We get it. But the world outside the US is taking notice and interest and exploring and building.


It’s ironic that a faction of the US government (mostly boomers) is taking a communistic approach to try and chase crypto out of the country while other jurisdictions are embracing and giving tax breaks to companies that support the industry. It’s like the book “The Sovereign Individual” is playing out in real time. Amazing to see

 

[mentos]

BlackRock Close to Filing for Bitcoin ETF Application: Source

BlackRock Close to Filing For Bitcoin ETF Application: Source
BlackRock will be using Coinbase (COIN) Custody for the ETF and the crypto exchange’s spot market data for pricing, the source said.
By Ian Allison
AccessTimeIconJun 15, 2023 at 9:01 a.m. EDT
Updated Jun 15, 2023 at 9:14 a.m. EDT
BLACKROCK headquarters (Shutterstock)
BLACKROCK headquarters (Shutterstock)
BlackRock, the world's biggest asset manager, is close to filing an application for a Bitcoin ETF (exchange traded fund), according to a person familiar with the matter.
BlackRock will be using Coinbase (COIN) Custody for the ETF and the crypto exchange’s spot market data for pricing, the person said. Coinbase declined to comment.
BlackRock began working with Coinbase to make crypto directly available to institutional investors midway through last year.

It wasn't clear if the ETF will be spot or futures. BlackRock did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
To date, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which oversees ETFs in the U.S., has rejected every application for a spot bitcoin ETF, though it has approved several bitcoin futures ETFs for trading.

Don’t fall for the banana in the tailpipe trick. Clear out the innovators and those who took risks to build up the industry to 1 trillion, for the big boys to take it over and collect fees on you. Black Rock manages $10,000,000,000,000.00 in assets and now all of a sudden wants to form a Bitcoin ETF? I wonder if these are the type of people who some people have a “problem” with.

Fidelity already lets you buy and sell BTC and ETH directly. @nimbus which is why I believe BTC and ETH are safer. Those two comprise about 80% of all crypto market caps.

Crypto Trading | Trade Bitcoin and Ethereum | Fidelity

Crypto trading with Fidelity Crypto. Trade Bitcoin and Ethereum in the Same App Where You Trade Stocks.

www.fidelity.com

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

With Fidelity investments rumored to be applying for a spot Bitcoin ETF (and also purchasing the Grayscale trust), it seems the traditional market is listening to their customers. These firms manage > $10 trillion in assets and will give their customers access to BTC if they don’t want to directly hold it themselves (although a spot ETF is physically settled). Bitcoin as a mainstream portfolio asset is happening in real time.

Once these spot ETFs are approved, I think we see in the future where the cost of a whole BTC is to expensive for the average Joe. But the ETF (and the other financial products that follow), will allow everyone who wants to, enter the crypto market.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Seems like a great exit strategy for the landed gentry of the bitcoin space to offload their hordes onto the bitcoin believers who can't get into the space because their wives would kill them. Grease the wheels of liquidity onto the average Joe who has irrational beliefs about "how useful this bitcoin is for buyin stuff someday!"

At least they'll have to put disclaimers on it like every other ETF now, that's at least a start. Certainly not a part of a retirement plan for any average person though, and I'd be highly skeptical of any pension plan that would put my money in it.

If I was trying to unload my crap onto a willing buyer, this is definitely a great way to do it.

Having said that, this all goes to hell if someone over at Coinbase has been cooking the books like FTX did. High risk to say the least.

So… hypothetically, IF blackrock and fidelity get spot bitcoin ETFs approved, what do you think happens to the bitcoin price? Still going to zero?

I’m also curious: *why* do you think blackrock and fidelity (the #1 and #3 largest asset mgmt firms) chose to get into bitcoin? Just to “crash” the price/kill it? If that happens, how do blackrock and fidelity make money?

 

[pgg]

I’m also curious: *why* do you think blackrock and fidelity (the #1 and #3 largest asset mgmt firms) chose to get into bitcoin?

Because they'll make money from fees as dumb retail investors buy and sell the ETF.

Blackrock and Fidelity aren't investing in bitcoin. They're going to harvest transaction fees from people with FOMO.

I think it's hilarious that you think this is somehow something about the utility or value of bitcoin. The entire story of bitcoin is finding a new pool of suckers to throw money into it. This development may well drive the price of bitcoin up for a while. But after the retail FOMOs are fleeced ... who's left? One more pump, before the whales dump?

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

I’ll be proven right and this thread will be around longer than those that fail to see the global changes we are witnessing right before our eyes. I won’t dunk too much in this thread but I will refer to quotes from some here.

My recommendations for those that have exposure to $BTC is to take them off exchanges because $BLK, fidelity and the USGOV understand the changes that are happening and will make it difficult (if not impossible) to self custody it.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

Define "right."

I doesn’t matter to people who are in denial.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

As for going to zero. I doubt that Bitcoin will just “stop” someday, purely because *****s will always exist.

But there’s zero reason that it won’t lose 99% of its value someday (hey, halfway there) and get kicked around by true-believer losers once the whales have moved on to their next grift, same as every other %*^# coin does now.

So is that your prediction? It loses 99% of its value? Sub $300 bitcoin? What’s your ETA on that?

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Define "right."

“Right” = I make enough money on it to retire early (< 10 years)

I bet bitcoin hits a new ATH (>69k) by the end of 2024. I hope you’ll come back and visit the thread then.

 

[pgg]

“Right” = I make enough money on it to retire early (< 10 years)

I bet bitcoin hits a new ATH (>69k) by the end of 2024. I hope you’ll come back and visit the thread then.

None of us doubt that some people are going to extract profits from late-coming FOMO fools. Maybe you and @Direct Laryngoscopy will be among them. I hope so.

Exchanges are good at extracting wealth from their users, doubly so if they're dishonest as many have turned out to be. Fidelity etc will likely behave mostly honestly, but again their angle is profit extraction from transactions. It's not like they have faith in bitcoin replacing actual currencies.

Your ability or inability to time the pumps and dumps and make money yourself is a totally different question than whether or not bitcoin is, or ever will be, actually useful for any of the things you guys claim it is. It's not an inflation hedge, it's not a store of value, it's not a currency, and it doesn't do anything better than the existing banking system.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

With more applications (fidelity, Blackrock, wisdom tree) for spot BTC ETFs (for better or worse), we are seeing BTC (and probably some crypto assets) entering mainstream portfolios. Seems with this present pump ($30,000) institutions are accumulating. I think this is the early change in the market and we’re entering a bull market. I’m still buying dips (BTC and ETH) and will enjoy the ride.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I def could be wrong about crypto but I used this recent bounce to get off the bandwagon. Made a good bit of money but likely lost a lot more with other crypto projects. I’m not seeing utilization at this stage and feel it’s more of a ponzi scheme but again what do I know?

In my experience, people who make a lot of money try not to have many people get involved in it or try to keep everything on the DL.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

Everything is a Ponzi.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

Start with the global money supply (or M2 on the St Louis Fed website) and you can see how BTC prices over time. Because the way the central Banking system is designed (inflationary, need more credit creation to keep the Ponzi going), it’s a check on Central Banking and it is absolute scarcity (will only be 21 million, but you can check the circulating supply at any time).

2022 saw the largest contraction of money supply in history (interest rates went from basically 0 to 5%) and led to a tumble from 69K to 16K. But now we’re seeing global money increase again (China, the second largest economy in the world is printing money again) along with funds in the US allocating capital to the BTC network and we’ve gone up 85% from the bottom. What do you think will happen once the Fed starts printing money again?

With BlackRock, Charles Schwab, etal applying for ETFs, forming their own trading exchange (EDX), custodial solutions for those that don’t want to hold crypto themselves, this is adoption. They’ll be more boom and bust cycles, but less and less people will leave during the busts (Busts are needed imo because they wash out leverage).

BTC and Nasdaq are giving the highest returns are because we’re seeing adoption of technology and the internet of value (digital assets). I Just keep it simple. If the federal reserve is printing money, dollars will flow to tech and crypto. They take the punch bowl away, crypto and Nasdaq will probably be hit harder. But once you understand how the central banking Ponzi works, a lot of things, not only in the markets, but the world becomes clearer.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

With more applications (fidelity, Blackrock, wisdom tree) for spot BTC ETFs (for better or worse), we are seeing BTC (and probably some crypto assets) entering mainstream portfolios. Seems with this present pump ($30,000) institutions are accumulating. I think this is the early change in the market and we’re entering a bull market. I’m still buying dips (BTC and ETH) and will enjoy the ride.

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg… assuming the spot ETFs actually get approved, 1-2 years from now I see the bitcoin price skyrocketing (6 figures easy)!

 

[Z-Qualizer]

I def could be wrong about crypto but I used this recent bounce to get off the bandwagon. Made a good bit of money but likely lost a lot more with other crypto projects. I’m not seeing utilization at this stage and feel it’s more of a ponzi scheme but again what do I know?

In my experience, people who make a lot of money try not to have many people get involved in it or try to keep everything on the DL.

What are your plans for the money you just made from selling your crypto? Will you spend it, put it in savings, or invest in something else (and if so, what)? I hope you don’t end up regretting getting out when you did.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg… assuming the spot ETFs actually get approved, 1-2 years from now I see the bitcoin price skyrocketing (6 figures easy)!

Once the BTC ETF is approved , ETH will be next. I’m not really into ETH but the potential moves that it could make is irresistible.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Once the BTC ETF is approved , ETH will be next. I’m not really into ETH but the potential moves that it could make is irresistible.

Since the SEC recently named Algorand (ALGO) an unregistered security in a lawsuit, BTC and ETH are the only crypto I own now. I think ETH has a lot of upside, but I have a lot more faith in BTC. My current allocation is about 80% BTC : 20% ETH.

Luckily ALGO was just a wildcard/dark horse pick for me, so I had less than 10% of my crypto funds allocated to it.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

What are your plans for the money you just made from selling your crypto? Will you spend it, put it in savings, or invest in something else (and if so, what)? I hope you don’t end up regretting getting out when you did.

I’ve been slowly investing some back into the stock market but also used some on a family vacay.

Knowing my luck, I probably will regret it!

 

[Z-Qualizer]

I’ve been slowly investing some back into the stock market but also used some on a family vacay.

Knowing my luck, I probably will regret it!

Good luck with your stock investments, and I hope it is/was a nice vacation.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Once the BTC ETF is approved , ETH will be next. I’m not really into ETH but the potential moves that it could make is irresistible.

everyone is convinced we see a new ATH by the end of 2025 at some point. Will be sad if the ATH is like 75k or something. It has to at least get to 100k min. Still a 5-7x if you bought the bottom but not so great if you bough at the previous ATH. Something like tesla is probably a safer long term bet. I expect tesla to be over 400-500/ share by end of 2025 so close to a double in 30 months ain't bad.

 

[anbuitachi]

The deal as presently constituted allows for no cap on debt till January 2025 (after the elections). The national debt would increase by close to $2,000,000,000,000.00 almost instantly as the Treasury would need to raise capital. But who’s going to buy the debt? And who’s paying for it? And if the federal reserve is going to buy it, where is the money coming from? What a a cluster. This is moving faster than I thought it would.

I would suggest people learn about counterparty risk.

when is that happening?

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2023-05/51118-2023-05-Budget-Projections.xlsx

They blown through their budget projections for this year already and are on track for this fiscal year to be over 2 trillion in deficit spending. I understand to some (mostly the MNT crowd) debt doesn’t matter. But history and math tells me it will have to be addressed at some point.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3979336-us-federal-budget-deficit-comes-in-wider-than-expected-in-may

 

[Z-Qualizer]

everyone is convinced we see a new ATH by the end of 2025 at some point. Will be sad if the ATH is like 75k or something. It has to at least get to 100k min. Still a 5-7x if you bought the bottom but not so great if you bough at the previous ATH. Something like tesla is probably a safer long term bet. I expect tesla to be over 400-500/ share by end of 2025 so close to a double in 30 months ain't bad.

I actually think we’ll hit several (at least 3) new ATHs between the April 2024 halving and the end of 2025.

A 75k bitcoin price is only “sad” for people who bought at 69k - and had to wait 4 years for an 8-ish% gain.

Luckily, I waited for the price to start crashing and I started buying in at sub 50k. I’ve continued to DCA, and my average price now is about $32k per bitcoin.

So a 75k bitcoin price would yield a nice return for me. I’m hoping it will be higher, but I definitely wouldn’t be SAD!

 

[finalpsychyear]

I actually think we’ll hit several (at least 3) new ATHs between the April 2024 halving and the end of 2025.

A 75k bitcoin price is only “sad” for people who bought at 69k - and had to wait 4 years for an 8-ish% gain.

Luckily, I waited for the price to start crashing and I started buying in at sub 50k. I’ve continued to DCA, and my average price now is about $32k per bitcoin.

So a 75k bitcoin price would yield a nice return for me. I’m hoping it will be higher, but I definitely wouldn’t be SAD!

Good points. Tesla going back to its ATH which is over 400 is a good bet given all the other tech companies have already gotten back or above there's recently and they are taking over the charging infrastructure. Will cause a lot of others to jump ship to tesla esp with cyber and compact car on its way. I think the energy business for them is severely underrated. The fsd/robo/bot stuff well some of that may happen by end of 2025 as well so i'd be suprirsed if its not above 400 so a 60 percent gain in a likely bull market would be somewhat conservative.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Good points. Tesla going back to its ATH which is over 400 is a good bet given all the other tech companies have already gotten back or above there's recently and they are taking over the charging infrastructure. Will cause a lot of others to jump ship to tesla esp with cyber and compact car on its way. I think the energy business for them is severely underrated. The fsd/robo/bot stuff well some of that may happen by end of 2025 as well so i'd be suprirsed if its not above 400 so a 60 percent gain in a likely bull market would be somewhat conservative.

Yeah I like Tesla stock a lot. I was about to invest in it, but then I discovered bitcoin. I might buy some on a pullback one of these days.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

A lot is being made of inflation on this thread. Can I just ask, why is fiat inflation in and of itself giving any sort of value to crypto?

Inflation is often brought up when discussing Bitcoin because much of the inflation we've been experiencing is due to out-of-control money printing by governments. Bitcoin is the antithesis of this - there is a hard cap of 21 million, although each bitcoin can be divided into 100M satoshis/sats.

Everyone speaks of scarcity of bitcoin as a positive, but if it is intended to act as a currency someday, then absolute scarcity is deflationary (the stated goal and feature, not bug, of bitcoin) in the long run, encouraging hoarding of the coins instead of use of the coins. If the holder of a currency believes it will be worth more tomorrow due to deflation, consumption and spending stops entirely at some point.

Yes, bitcoin was orginally created and intended to be a currency used for peer-to-peer transactions. It's become so valuable that it's evolved into more of a digital asset/store of value. It's now being compared to "digital gold" (although some people really hate that comparison).

When it was created, it traded for fractions of a penny. I don't think the original goal was for each bitcoin to be worth tens of thousands of dollars... but here we are!

I know that sounds like a cop-out answer, but it's true.

If any sort of "adoption" were to take place, in a deflationary currency, it will create a permanent underclass of people who have zero way to get out of their current socioeconomic situation. We don't have that many now, but it's at least possible if there is a slightly inflationary currency present. In fact, most of the world's population has experienced this rise in socioeconomic status in the past 50 years, and we did it all without a deflationary economy. The endgame of a deflationary asset is to concentrate wealth over time in the hands of even fewer people than we have now. If what crypto bros want happens, the "late adopters" of crypto aren't even born yet, and we'll have permanent, generational poverty caused by the missing of a hype-filled boat that currently that has zero real world application.
Everyone who's a crypto believer thinks it's "the future." If they are correct, and say, "mass adoption" of a deflationary currency occurs, then "the future" is an inevitable serfdom social structure a la the middle ages. Is there some reason why that should be the goal of society and the financial system?

Again, more of the reason why I find it morally reprehensible to praise crypto, because the endgame of the system is that "early adopters" are rewarded for risking their assets on what on its face is a zero value proposition that is already entirely inhabited by already rich Americans and Europeans with too many graphics cards to spare. You're essentially rooting for the other 9 billion people on earth to be shut out of any real prosperity or socioeconomic mobility for all time, with an attitude of telling people who are currently not born or children "you should've bought in early" once they hit working age.

Okay, let's look at the current system... depending on which source you use, the top 1% of the world's population owns something like 50% of the world's wealth? And the top 10% own something like 85% ? Does that sound like a system that is fair and working for everyone?!?
At least bitcoin gave people an alternative, and a chance at a fresh start. People have had 14 years to invest in bitcoin, and they still can... if they choose not to, who is to blame?

At least if you invest in a company of some sort, they'll eventually need to produce something of value to prosper and survive. Top companies that don't do that won't stay at the top permanently, and that's historically true 100% of the time for the data we have. You can then reap the rewards of capitalism, which is actually making something for everyone to use.

I agree, and I invest in companies too. I have a 401k and Roth IRA and I max both in an S&P 500 fund.

If you invest in crypto, you're basically hoping to become a landed gentry over a bunch of future serfs, and telling everyone that it's preferable to have society like that, and a moral failing if they don't believe you. Disgusting.

No, I'm not hoping for any of that. I just want to retire early from my corporate job and enjoy some of my life before I die. I see bitcoin as my way to reach that goal.

 

[GassYous]

No one uses bitcoin for daily life

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

🥱

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

Opinions don’t matter and numbers don’t lie. When I started this thread BTC was 11K. It’s presently pumping above 31K. No one here would complain in 300% gains in 3 years. The alpha I’ve been spitting over the last 3 years would have more than maintain your purchasing power in the face inflation the highest in 40 years.

Like I’ve said before, this thread will be around longer than the doubters and the more hate and name calling I get, makes it all the sweeter.

Cheers.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Opinions don’t matter and numbers don’t lie. When I started this thread BTC was 11K. It’s presently pumping above 31K. No one here would complain in 300% gains in 3 years. The alpha I’ve been spitting over the last 3 years would have more than maintain your purchasing power in the face inflation the highest in 40 years.

Like I’ve said before, this thread will be around longer than the doubters and the more hate and name calling I get, makes it all the sweeter.

Cheers.

BTC will be a collectible item and a store of value for the rich. There will be ETFs and that is driving the price higher. I see no value for Bitcoin and I own it. Personally, I'm up roughly 400% since I bought it. Will I buy more? No. Again, I don't see it having any more value than a rare digital asset. When will I sell Bitcoin? I told myself once it hits 99,000 I am selling 1 coin.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Like I’ve said before, this thread will be around longer than the doubters and the more hate and name calling I get, makes it all the sweeter.

Regardless of how successful Bitcoin becomes, I’m sure the doubters will always come back during the bear markets to remind us that bitcoin is dead (again) 😂

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Yea, I honestly could care less if crypto goes up or down. It’s all speculation.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

A quick glance at the google search interest for Bitcoin is pretty revealing. No new action with the ETFs coming out. Maybe a small bump in the next few months (assuming the SEC actually approves them, far from a certainty), but there's no more traffic with the search term "bitcoin" or "cryptocurrency" or "Ethereum" compared to 2019.

Whoever the buyers of these ETFs will be, it doesn't look like it's retail investors. There's no real reason to expect a new renaissance in crypto or regular people being interested in this stuff just judging by the search trends.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=bitcoin&hl=en

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=ethereum&hl=en

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=cryptocurrency&hl=en

You're now counting on institutions being the buyers for Bitcoin, but I'm struggling to find any big hedge funds that are getting into the space except as a literal hedge of their enormous pool of assets. A look at the trading volume of bitcoin speaks of a problem of liquidity in the future if the ETFs don't take off.

Bitcoin Trading Volume Chart - Bitcoin Visuals

Histoical and current bitcoin trading volume and dominance statistics. Volume is measured over a 24-hour period. Dominance is the percent of bitcoin volume versus the entire cryptocurrency market.

bitcoinvisuals.com

In a world of normal to high interest rates, it's gonna be a very dicey proposition to find an institutional investor willing to borrow money to risk 6% guaranteed returns for an investment in smoke vs an investment in something tangible.

My guess would be that the ETF makers see this as a potential small spigot of free money from true believers who will change their whole savings into smoke.

“… in the next few months…” ?!?

I don’t think anyone (credible) is expecting these new spot ETFs to be approved that soon?

Of course, nobody knows but most estimates I’ve heard are in the range of 6 months to a year.

With big players such as BlackRock and Fidelity involved, I predict there will be retail AND institutional investors. This is going to be huge.

Stick around and we’ll see who’s right.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Ok, just saying that the hype train you guys are on doesn't appear to be catching anyone's eye, at least in google land. Don't worry, I'm in this profession for the long haul!

Well applying for the ETF is just the first step, and yes that was BIG news. But now there's a waiting period, which could last several months. During that time, you can't really expect people to maintain that same level of enthusiasm as when the news first broke. But I promise you this: if/when the spot ETF(s) are approved, there will be insane euphoria in the bitcoin market again.

20% of American adults already have interacted with the crypto space in some way. How much more market share do you think you'd reasonably get in Bitcoin ownership from the rest of them that actually have disposable income to invest?

I can't give you numbers, but I think this will bring A LOT of new investors into bitcoin. Perhaps more conservative investors who wouldn't have otherwise invested in bitcoin/crypto. The ETF vehicle removes the need to understand things like hot/cold wallets, figuring out where & how to buy it, which crypto exchanges are safe/legit, etc. The barriers to entry for investing in bitcoin can be overwhelming for some, and this removes a lot of those barriers.

Conversely, most investors understand ETFs or are at least familiar with them. Right or wrong, ETFs are generally regarded as "safer" investments. ETFs will provide people with a much easier on-ramp to invest in bitcoin. And being linked to blue chip powerhouse investment firms like BlackRock and Fidelity gives them even more legitimacy.

I also see this giving the existing 20% of bitcoin investors more confidence to buy even more bitcoin.

Additionally, if there was real institutional demand for this, why would they wait for a crypto ETF to come out, and why would they give up if it wasn't approved? Why not buy it privately while the prices are so, so, so low?

Oh come on... you already know the answer to this! Institutions have been waiting for regulatory clarity. The SEC approving bitcoin spot ETFs from BlackRock and Fidelity is exactly the blessing/clarity institutional investors have been waiting for.

If someone wanted crypto, they probably already made or lost what they're gonna make in most situations. Everyone I know who used to be in the space now thinks it's a joke/scam and won't go anywhere near it. I know very few crypto shills in the real world these days.

Some people will never go near it, and will never change their mind about that. Others who said they'd never go near will change their mind, and dive back in. The bull market can have that affect on people.

 

[chessknt]

Petition to rename this the crypto shilling thread to be more accurate. I am still waiting for government adoption but of course it is still early.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

So let me see if I understand this. Hedge funds getting into the crypto space before this news comes is good. But of course the GOOD hedge funds will wait? But the ones who already are in it are the really good ones that make money because they’re in it already. So only the sort of good ones are waiting because they’re hedgier than the other ones.

Sorry… you lost me there.

I thought it was an escape from all the rules and regulations…but it’s not a security it’s a currency so of course it’s regulated differently.

Well apparently only 20-ish percent of Americans wanted to escape from the rules. For the other 80-ish percent who like rules and structure, their time is coming.

Let me ask you this: if the ETFs aren’t approved, is that also somehow good for bitcoins value?

No, and I won’t play both sides of the fence and pretend that would be a good thing.

It won’t be the end/death of Bitcoin (sorry to disappoint) but it will definitely be a set-back. Bitcoin can survive without a spot ETF, just as it has for the past 14 years.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Petition to rename this the crypto shilling thread to be more accurate. I am still waiting for government adoption but of course it is still early.

Who’s shilling?!?

This is the crypto investment thread and we’re discussing news and current events in crypto investing… what’s the problem?

 

[pgg]

Who’s shilling?!?

I wouldn't call it "shilling" but this thread is full of true believers condescendingly telling unbelievers that they'll be left behind, and will miss out, because they don't Get It or have any vision. As if, in the event bitcoin ever actually became useful for anything, that we'd be locked out and unable to get any. It's a little ridiculous.

This is the crypto investment thread and we’re discussing news and current events in crypto investing… what’s the problem?

There's no problem.

I am curious though - are you going to buy any ETF shares, if they become available? If so, why would you rather have them, instead of the actual bitcoins?

 

[Z-Qualizer]

I wouldn't call it "shilling" but this thread is full of true believers condescendingly telling unbelievers that they'll be left behind, and will miss out, because they don't Get It or have any vision. As if, in the event bitcoin ever actually became useful for anything, that we'd be locked out and unable to get any. It's a little ridiculous.

I don’t know… there seems to be a pretty good split of pro- and anti- bitcoin people here. And I see condescension from both sides. This thread is hardly an echo chamber of crypto fan boys.

There's no problem.

I am curious though - are you going to buy any ETF shares, if they become available? If so, why would you rather have them, instead of the actual bitcoins?

Not sure? Once they’re approved, I’ll have to see what the fees and expense ratios are. I’m definitely going to look into it though.

 

[pgg]

Not sure? Once they’re approved, I’ll have to see what the fees and expense ratios are. I’m definitely going to look into it though.

Why would you buy a digital placeholder for a digital commodity?

I figured the only people who would, are the ones who don't understand what it is and can't figure out how to buy it without a middleman charging brokerage fees. And sure there may be plenty of those people, leading to one more round of pumping before a dump.

I can't imagine that the expense ratio will be low. Especially if the whole point of the ETF is for Schwab, Fidelity, etc to get in on collecting transaction fees from latecoming FOMO investors.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

You are.

To imply that the average consumer of cryptocurrency “wanted to escape the rules”, which implies a pioneering instinct or intrepidity in these people, is the exact problem with crypto shills.

In general, the only rules that crypto people want to skirt are:

1. Tax law, and paying taxes in general
2. The idea of working for a living
3. Being polite, as most of them outright brag that they will be total asses about it when they “make it bro”, while the rest of us can “Have Fun Staying Poor” (HFSP in crypto lingo)

This is all you ever see on the crypto forums and from the crypto shills, including on this thread.

This is why when you say something like, “FOMO,” or “escape from the rules”, instead of making any sort of argument based in reality, it’s hard to take any of you seriously as not only financial managers of your lives, but as people in general.

I’m all for both sidesing most issues, but this is one where the pro crypto side is clearly a religious, online, echo chamber that is so cringe it would make lemons look sweet

For the record, I pay all of my federal, state, and local taxes. And I advise others to as well.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

The national debt has increased $700,000,000,000.00 in 3 weeks. This doesn’t look sustainable in my humble opinion. I wonder if this is the beginning of a debt spiral.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Not good news, but hopefully just a minor set-back 🤞

WSJ News Exclusive | SEC Says Spot Bitcoin ETF Filings Are Inadequate

The regulator informed Nasdaq and Cboe that applications from BlackRock, Fidelity and others aren’t sufficiently clear and comprehensive.

www.wsj.com

>>>
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) has deemed a recent wave of applications by asset managers to launch spot bitcoin exchange-traded funds (ETFs) as inadequate. The SEC's decision resulted in a significant speed bump for the bitcoin market, which had rallied from $25,000 to $31,000 based on hopes for a Bitcoin ETF. The decision caused Bitcoin prices to fall by nearly $1000, although prices have since stabilized.

The SEC's main concern with the applications was that they did not provide enough clarity and detail on their surveillance arrangements. The commission returned the applications because they didn't identify the spot bitcoin exchange with which they were expected to have a "surveillance-sharing agreement". Moreover, they didn't provide enough information about the details of those surveillance arrangements.

The SEC's decision, however, does not spell the end for these Bitcoin ETFs. The commission has indicated that asset managers can update their filings and refile them to address these surveillance issues. Some industry watchers had previously predicted that BlackRock’s filing would appease the SEC’s concerns through an agreement to share “surveillance” of a spot bitcoin-trading platform with Nasdaq, which would list the ETF.
>>>

---

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

View attachment 373468

The national debt has increased $700,000,000,000.00 in 3 weeks. This doesn’t look sustainable in my humble opinion. I wonder if this is the beginning of a debt spiral.

With the bond market blowing out and BTC dumping, I think we are in a debt spiral and a liquidity crisis. BTC has been a precursor to the broader market (when there’s a liquidity crisis, sell the most riskiest, but also liquid), with late 2018 and March 2020 being recent examples.

I have stink bids in the upper teens just in case. I think there is a massive opportunity here and will be buy on the way down

 

[Z-Qualizer]

With the bond market blowing out and BTC dumping, I think we are in a debt spiral and a liquidity crisis. BTC has been a precursor to the broader market (when there’s a liquidity crisis, sell the most riskiest, but also liquid), with late 2018 and March 2020 being recent examples.

I have stink bids in the upper teens just in case. I think there is a massive opportunity here and will be buy on the way down

I bought some more BTC and ETH today on the dip.

 

[MirrorTodd]

Just when my wife told me to stop buying lol 😢😢😢

 

[Dr. Rude]

With the bond market blowing out and BTC dumping, I think we are in a debt spiral and a liquidity crisis. BTC has been a precursor to the broader market (when there’s a liquidity crisis, sell the most riskiest, but also liquid), with late 2018 and March 2020 being recent examples.

I have stink bids in the upper teens just in case. I think there is a massive opportunity here and will be buy on the way down

I think that the most effective current argument against crypto is that it is not being adopted as a currency. That seems to have stopped in fact. What do you think?