Biden and Dem’s Put Kibosh on MD FIRE

[drusso]

Say bye-bye to Back Door Roth’s and alternative IRA investment strategies. And remember, “Elections have consequences.”

D’s have never been on the look out for physicians interests and their actions speak louder than words.

House Democrats propose new retirement plan rules for the rich, including contribution limits and a repeal of Roth conversions

A proposal from House Dems would repeal Roth conversions in individual retirement accounts and 401(k)-type plans for those making more than $400,000 a year.

cnb.cx

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bedrock]

Say bye-bye to Back Door Roth’s and alternative IRA investment strategies. And remember, “Elections have consequences.”

D’s have never been on the look out for physicians interests and their actions speak louder than words.

House Democrats propose new retirement plan rules for the rich, including contribution limits and a repeal of Roth conversions

A proposal from House Dems would repeal Roth conversions in individual retirement accounts and 401(k)-type plans for those making more than $400,000 a year.

cnb.cx

I’ve always said that republicans aren’t necessarily friends of physicians, but it is clear that democrats are definitely the enemies of physicians.

 

[clubdeac]

Also I just heard they’re increasing the top bracket back to 39% and then adding a few more federal taxes to put the top bracket around 46%, and that’s before state taxes. Wow! Looks like we’re all effed on this one 👏

 

[Nodolor]

Among them, the reforms would end “backdoor” and “mega-backdoor” Roth strategies for the wealthy and add new rules for individuals with retirement savings over $10 million.

In direct response To Thiel and other Billionaires

I have been hearing for years Republicans are friendly to Doctors haven't seen it.......No repeal of Moratorium on doctor owned Hospitals, last tax cuts benefited a lot of rich people but not doctors....but keep sticking that talking point

 

[deleted131481]

Not much effect on your average physician who makes less than 400k.

Agree this will affect the pain physician 1x ballers. May need to hold off a couple more months on that 2nd Tesla.

 

[10KHertz]

Florida may not be large enough for the fleeing working class and rich… I should have bought that condo during Covid 😞

 

[Ducttape]

do you have "retirement savings" (not net worth) of over $10,000,000? if you do, you are in an extremely exclusive group of Americans.


this is a way that conservative opinion speakers try to bamboozle their members. this is not 99% of Americans.


69% or so of Americans have <$1000 in retirement savings.

the average retirement savings of Americans is around $65,000. the average savings of Americans >age 65 is $172,000.

the average retirement savings of the top 10% is $700,000.

in fact, apparently, according to Fidelity, a grand total of 157,000 Americans have retirement savings in 401 or 403s of more than $1 million.

that is less than 1% of Americans. by default the number of Americans with $10,000,000 in savings will be significantly less than 1%.


so $10,000,000 is not 99% of Americans, and there are pretty good odds that it is not you.

(again, retirement savings =/= net worth)

 

[drusso]

do you have "retirement savings" (not net worth) of over $10,000,000? if you do, you are in an extremely exclusive group of Americans.


this is a way that conservative opinion speakers try to bamboozle their members. this is not 99% of Americans.


69% or so of Americans have <$1000 in retirement savings.

the average retirement savings of Americans is around $65,000. the average savings of Americans >age 65 is $172,000.

the average retirement savings of the top 10% is $700,000.

in fact, apparently, according to Fidelity, a grand total of 157,000 Americans have retirement savings in 401 or 403s of more than $1 million.

that is less than 1% of Americans. by default the number of Americans with $10,000,000 in savings will be significantly less than 1%.


so $10,000,000 is not 99% of Americans, and there are pretty good odds that it is not you.

(again, retirement savings =/= net worth)

These policies will disproportionately impact physicians at a time when doctors have been putting our lives on the line during this pandemic. I still don't know why so many MD/DO support Dem policies when Dem's consistently show that they don't have our backs.

 

[SSdoc33]

These policies will disproportionately impact physicians at a time when doctors have been putting our lives on the line during this pandemic. I still don't know why so many MD/DO support Dem policies when Dem's consistently show that they don't have our backs.

they dont, as a matter of fact. as ducttape just pointed out.

additionally, this is a proposal from house democrats that probably won't even see the light of day.

if you have 10M in retirement savings, i dont want to hear the b$tching about how the system is so unfair

if you want to complain, how about starting with your state's exorbitant 9.9% income tax rate

 

[Nodolor]

These policies will disproportionately impact physicians at a time when doctors have been putting our lives on the line during this pandemic. I still don't know why so many MD/DO support Dem policies when Dem's consistently show that they don't have our backs.

You make these Blanket statements about Dems screwing Doctors...again tell me what the Republican's did when they had control a few years ago

 

[Ducttape]

let me fix this statement for you:

These policies will disproportionately impact physicians surgeons at a time when ER, Hospitalist, Primary care and Critical care doctors have been putting our lives on the line during this pandemic. I still don't know why so many MD/DO support Dem policies when Dem's consistently show that they don't have our backs.

 

[drusso]

let me fix this statement for you:

These policies will disproportionately impact physicians surgeons at a time when ER, Hospitalist, Primary care and Critical care doctors have been putting our lives on the line during this pandemic. I still don't know why so many MD/DO support Dem policies when Dem's consistently show that they don't have our backs.

We're all in this together. Pain patients and their doctors have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic. The D tax policies are cutting off all doctors at the knees.

#HealthCareHeros.

 

[Ducttape]

you really don't hang out or know any primary care or ER docs...

 

[Nodolor]

We're all in this together. Pain patients and their doctors have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic. The D tax policies are cutting off all doctors at the knees.

Which policy that has been enacted are you referring to?

 

[DOctorJay]

do you have "retirement savings" (not net worth) of over $10,000,000? if you do, you are in an extremely exclusive group of Americans.


this is a way that conservative opinion speakers try to bamboozle their members. this is not 99% of Americans.


69% or so of Americans have <$1000 in retirement savings.

the average retirement savings of Americans is around $65,000. the average savings of Americans >age 65 is $172,000.

the average retirement savings of the top 10% is $700,000.

in fact, apparently, according to Fidelity, a grand total of 157,000 Americans have retirement savings in 401 or 403s of more than $1 million.

that is less than 1% of Americans. by default the number of Americans with $10,000,000 in savings will be significantly less than 1%.


so $10,000,000 is not 99% of Americans, and there are pretty good odds that it is not you.

(again, retirement savings =/= net worth)

"The bill would also repeal so-called Roth conversions in individual retirement accounts and 401(k)-type plans for those making more than $400,000 a year. It would also prevent savers from using the “mega-backdoor Roth” strategy, regardless of income level."

the last paragraph is basically saying you will no longer be able to use your IRA for real estate syndication type investments.

 

[clubdeac]

"The bill would also repeal so-called Roth conversions in individual retirement accounts and 401(k)-type plans for those making more than $400,000 a year. It would also prevent savers from using the “mega-backdoor Roth” strategy, regardless of income level."

the last paragraph is basically saying you will no longer be able to use your IRA for real estate syndication type investments.

Yeah they’re going to increase taxes to around 50% for those of us making > 400k and prevent us from shielding money in a back door Roth. It’s messed up. despite what the libs are saying on here, they too will feel it in their pocket books. A nice little gut punch for next year as everyone is pulling themselves out of the covid quagmire

 

[cowboydoc]

do you have "retirement savings" (not net worth) of over $10,000,000? if you do, you are in an extremely exclusive group of Americans.


this is a way that conservative opinion speakers try to bamboozle their members. this is not 99% of Americans.


69% or so of Americans have <$1000 in retirement savings.

the average retirement savings of Americans is around $65,000. the average savings of Americans >age 65 is $172,000.

the average retirement savings of the top 10% is $700,000.

in fact, apparently, according to Fidelity, a grand total of 157,000 Americans have retirement savings in 401 or 403s of more than $1 million.

that is less than 1% of Americans. by default the number of Americans with $10,000,000 in savings will be significantly less than 1%.


so $10,000,000 is not 99% of Americans, and there are pretty good odds that it is not you.

(again, retirement savings =/= net worth)

To follow this math to it's logical conclusion, you could raise the tax rate on this group significantly, and it would have a negligible impact on the federal budget because it is such a small number of people. This isn't logical budgeting at all, it's optics and grandstanding. Real tax reform with standard rates, limited deductions, minimization of lobbying and reduction of loopholes that make these tax rates a farce would be real progress.

 

[DOctorJay]

To follow this math to it's logical conclusion, you could raise the tax rate on this group significantly, and it would have a negligible impact on the federal budget because it is such a small number of people. This isn't logical budgeting at all, it's optics and grandstanding. Real tax reform with standard rates, limited deductions, minimization of lobbying and reduction of loopholes that make these tax rates a farce would be real progress.

Exactly. It’s like saying we should “pay those rich doctors less” when in fact we account for only 7% of all healthcare costs.

 

[Nodolor]

Yeah they’re going to increase taxes to around 50% for those of us making > 400k and prevent us from shielding money in a back door Roth. It’s messed up. despite what the libs are saying on here, they too will feel it in their pocket books. A nice little gut punch for next year as everyone is pulling themselves out of the covid quagmire

39 % is not 50%,
depending how close you are to retirement and what tax bracket you are in a back door roth doesn't always make sense

This is from "Physician on Fire" website

The Verdict: Are Backdoor Roth Conversions Worth the Trouble?​

The initial benefit of the Backdoor Roth, as compared to putting the same $6,000 in a taxable account, is worth maybe $20 to $50 per year, per person, and that money will compound over time. You also virtually guarantee you’ll never pay taxes on the withdrawals, which may or may not be true of the funds in a taxable account.

If you have no IRA money in your name and are comfortable accepting the minor disadvantages of the Roth account for $6,000 of your annual investments, I think it is worth the trouble. It takes a few minutes each of two different days, and perhaps some time to research it to make sure you get it right.

There’s also form 8606, and I’ve linked to several examples of how to do this on paper or with online tax preparing software here.

However, I would not go to great lengths to clear a path for the backdoor Roth just to save yourself maybe $28 a year. You could do financial harm if you roll over rollover money from an IRA into a 401(k) with even slightly higher fees than the IRA in which it currently resides.

There’s no reason to beat yourself up if you haven’t been contributing to a Roth IRA via the “backdoor.” It could save you a little money now and possibly some capital gains taxes later on, but I consider the true benefit to be marginal for most of us.

 

[SSdoc33]

To follow this math to it's logical conclusion, you could raise the tax rate on this group significantly, and it would have a negligible impact on the federal budget because it is such a small number of people. This isn't logical budgeting at all, it's optics and grandstanding. Real tax reform with standard rates, limited deductions, minimization of lobbying and reduction of loopholes that make these tax rates a farce would be real progress.

this is the crux of the issue. those "uber rich", though they are small in number, own a tremendous amount of the wealth in this country. if we can tax the income of the billionaires, it will make a big dent in the deficit.

right now, bill gates and warren buffet pay less in taxes percentage-wise than their secretaries.

also, and this is pretty important: the proposal is not a "wealth tax". this is not the kind of thing that bernie and liz warren wanted to do. nobody is taking income already earned that is in the bank.

most progressives think this plan is horrible

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/23/bidens-plan-tax-hikes-rich-is-good-it-doesnt-go-far-enough/

 

[drusso]

Which policy that has been enacted are you referring to?

The "You did not build that" policies...complete disregard for the delayed/forsaken earning that physicians incur due to the length of our training.

 

[tmvguy03]

Raising taxes on physicians, especially capital gains taxes to ordinary income levels (i.e DOUBLING the current rates) seriously feels like financial rape. I am quite a ways out from retirement, so hopefully the rates will be changed by a future administration. It is cliche to bemoan “government waste”, but seriously, paying as much tax as I do would at least sting a lot less if funding programs and institutions that I actually value.

 

[SSdoc33]

Raising taxes on physicians, especially capital gains taxes to ordinary income levels (i.e DOUBLING the current rates) seriously feels like financial rape. I am quite a ways out from retirement, so hopefully the rates will be changed by a future administration. It is cliche to bemoan “government waste”, but seriously, paying as much tax as I do would at least sting a lot less if funding programs and institutions that I actually value.

i guess you just hate roads? police? the army? those nasty public schools and their high-falootin' teachers. i know: social workers. they are the real devils here.

 

[drusso]

i guess you just hate roads? police? the army? those nasty public schools and their high-falootin' teachers. i know: social workers. they are the real devils here.

Those teachers retire with a pension equal to 2/3 of their highest salary for life.

 

[SSdoc33]

The "You did not build that" policies...complete disregard for the delayed/forsaken earning that physicians incur due to the length of our training.

exactly. Bullsh$t response.

obama was quoted, some would say misquoted, on that nearly a decade ago.

come up with something concrete, or holler at a wall.

btw, you might also want to read this:

Amazon product

to wit:

George Will: We now have a nation in which a large number are only happy when they're furious​

 

[SSdoc33]

Those teachers retire with a pension equal to 2/3 of their highest salary for life.

some of them do. and i don't love pensions. but to decry a teacher's salary is the epitome of gluttony

 

[drusso]

some of them do. and i don't love pensions. but to decry a teacher's salary is the epitome of gluttony

...or fiscal stewardship and accountability.

 

[SSdoc33]

 

[drusso]

exactly. Bullsh$t response.

obama was quoted, some would say misquoted, on that nearly a decade ago.

come up with something concrete, or holler at a wall.

btw, you might also want to read this:

Amazon product

to wit:

George Will: We now have a nation in which a large number are only happy when they're furious​

 

[clubdeac]

39 % is not 50%,
depending how close you are to retirement and what tax bracket you are in a back door roth doesn't always make sense

This is from "Physician on Fire" website

​

The Verdict: Are Backdoor Roth Conversions Worth the Trouble?​

The initial benefit of the Backdoor Roth, as compared to putting the same $6,000 in a taxable account, is worth maybe $20 to $50 per year, per person, and that money will compound over time. You also virtually guarantee you’ll never pay taxes on the withdrawals, which may or may not be true of the funds in a taxable account.

If you have no IRA money in your name and are comfortable accepting the minor disadvantages of the Roth account for $6,000 of your annual investments, I think it is worth the trouble. It takes a few minutes each of two different days, and perhaps some time to research it to make sure you get it right.

There’s also form 8606, and I’ve linked to several examples of how to do this on paper or with online tax preparing software here.

However, I would not go to great lengths to clear a path for the backdoor Roth just to save yourself maybe $28 a year. You could do financial harm if you roll over rollover money from an IRA into a 401(k) with even slightly higher fees than the IRA in which it currently resides.

There’s no reason to beat yourself up if you haven’t been contributing to a Roth IRA via the “backdoor.” It could save you a little money now and possibly some capital gains taxes later on, but I consider the true benefit to be marginal for most of us.

Research the tax proposal before you knee jerk reply. They are proposing two additional taxes on those making > 400k that will actually bring the top marginal rate up to around 46%. That’s before state tax so yes you will be paying well over 50% of your income in federal and state taxes.

also I’m more disappointed in the proposed elimination of the back door megaroth I’ve been contributing to. Have you not been contributing to a megaroth Nod?

 

[drusso]

Research the tax proposal before you knee jerk reply. They are proposing two additional taxes on those making > 400k that will actually bring the top marginal rate up to around 46%. That’s before state tax so yes you will be paying well over 50% of your income in federal and state taxes.

also I’m more disappointed in the proposed elimination of the back door megaroth I’ve been contributing to. Have you not been contributing to a megaroth Nod?

It's a very unfriendly proposal to physicians from our Dem friends...

 

[mid|ine]

Among them, the reforms would end “backdoor” and “mega-backdoor” Roth strategies for the wealthy and add new rules for individuals with retirement savings over $10 million.

In direct response To Thiel and other Billionaires

I love how docs get lumped in with billionaires

In response to Thiel, they just need to investigate and audit his Roth. Its publicly known that he broke at least 2 laws in how he build his Roth fortune. Go after that and not the docs putting away an extra $6k a year in retirement savings (Thiel only ever put $2k in his Roth)

 

[Nodolor]

The "You did not build that" policies...complete disregard for the delayed/forsaken earning that physicians incur due to the length of our training.

That was a statement that many took out of context and apparently you did too....you still have not given me an actual policy

 

[Nodolor]

Research the tax proposal before you knee jerk reply. They are proposing two additional taxes on those making > 400k that will actually bring the top marginal rate up to around 46%. That’s before state tax so yes you will be paying well over 50% of your income in federal and state taxes.

also I’m more disappointed in the proposed elimination of the back door megaroth I’ve been contributing to. Have you not been contributing to a megaroth Nod?

You must be looking at different proposal.... show me the two additional taxes that will apply to everyone making greater than 400K that will push it above 39%... States taxes are obviously state dependent so Biden has nothing to do with it

 

[Ferrismonk]

i guess you just hate roads? police? the army? those nasty public schools and their high-falootin' teachers. i know: social workers. they are the real devils here.

If they only did roads/police/firefighters/teachers/armed services then I'd be fine. But they don't. This "budget" is filled with all kinds of liberal pork.

 

[Nodolor]

R

also I’m more disappointed in the proposed elimination of the back door megaroth I’ve been contributing to. Have you not been contributing to a megaroth Nod?

Back door roth makes no sense for me from a Tax standpoint as I am close to retiring

 

[Nodolor]

If they only did roads/police/firefighters/teachers/armed services then I'd be fine. But they don't. This "budget" is filled with all kinds of liberal pork.

Hmmmm.....never happens on other side

 

[SSdoc33]

If they only did roads/police/firefighters/teachers/armed services then I'd be fine. But they don't. This "budget" is filled with all kinds of liberal pork.

thats a reasonable complaint. we will have a tough time agreeing on what to spend the tax money on.

most conservatives just want less taxes period, regardless of how it is spent.

 

[drusso]

That was a statement that many took out of context and apparently you did too....you still have not given me an actual policy

You don’t get it: *Any* policy that punishes savers is bad for MD/DO’s who get a much later start in life with earnings and start massively behind our peers in tech, finance, and real estate due to huge educational debt.

 

[Nodolor]

You don’t get it: *Any* policy that punishes savers is bad for MD/DO’s who get a much later start in life with earnings and start massively behind our peers in tech, finance, and real estate due to huge educational debt.

so like Biden forgiving student loan debt.......hmmm

 

[drusso]

so like Biden forgiving student loan debt.......hmmm

He didn’t forgive my debt…

 

[Nodolor]

He didn’t forgive my debt…

Probably saw your posts on here

 

[Ferrismonk]

so like Biden forgiving student loan debt.......hmmm

Not for "rich" doctors...

 

[Ferrismonk]

Hmmmm.....never happens on other side

It's both sides, doesn't make it right.

 

[Nodolor]

It's both sides, doesn't make it right.

Exactly but you specifically put Liberal to imply they are the root of this evil

 

[Ferrismonk]

Exactly but you specifically put Liberal to imply they are the root of this evil

If they only did roads/police/firefighters/teachers/armed services then I'd be fine. But they don't. This "budget" is filled with all kinds of liberal pork.

Was talking about this budget.

 

[lobelsteve]

Exactly but you specifically put Liberal to imply they are the root of this evil

People in government are the root of this evil. Both sides. They are there to screw all of us and enrich themselves any way possible. The only solution is term limits. 12 years for any elected or appointed government position combined. Then go home to your true career.

I know. I am a genius. Solved america. Or murica.

 

[Ducttape]

To follow this math to it's logical conclusion, you could raise the tax rate on this group significantly, and it would have a negligible impact on the federal budget because it is such a small number of people. This isn't logical budgeting at all, it's optics and grandstanding. Real tax reform with standard rates, limited deductions, minimization of lobbying and reduction of loopholes that make these tax rates a farce would be real progress.

you do not incorporate the vast wealth that is present in this small group in your calculations. the top 1% in income have 42% of the wealth and produce 20% of the income in the US.



what I find is most fascinating is the fact that the average American so far has bought in to this thought that we should not tax the rich. this country has such a huge population that makes very little money now and a tiny population that makes tons. we are changing from a society with a predominance of middle class to one of a small super rich class and almost everyone else. when the poor finally realize this....

 

[DOctorJay]

Buy, Borrow, Die: How Rich Americans Live Off Their Paper Wealth

The wealthy are borrowing more than ever, using low-interest loans backed by their investments in a strategy known as “buy, borrow, die.”

www.wsj.com

this is what they should be fixing

 

[drusso]

you do not incorporate the vast wealth that is present in this small group in your calculations. the top 1% in income have 42% of the wealth and produce 20% of the income in the US.



what I find is most fascinating is the fact that the average American so far has bought in to this thought that we should not tax the rich. this country has such a huge population that makes very little money now and a tiny population that makes tons. we are changing from a society with a predominance of middle class to one of a small super rich class and almost everyone else. when the poor finally realize this....

All physicians need to stand united against policies that disproportionately impact our opportunity to save, grow wealth, and invest in our communities. The D proposals are very unfriendly toward physicians & small business owners.