Biden Out of Race

[Gern Blansten]

---

Members don't see this ad.

It’s been sad to watch Gern’s progressive mental rot over the last few years.

Unfortunately this is something that has been happening at a large scale across the country. I don’t know if it’s social media or what, but something is breaking people’s brains.

Somehow, questioning people’s far left thoughts and asking difficult questions is considered brain rot now. Believing everything you are told and blindly following is the new gold standard. You’re doing great, I guess. Question nothing. I’m sure it will work out perfectly.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Gotta say, masks during peak pollen season are a game changer when you have horrible seasonal allergies, especially when cutting grass.

So is Zyrtec. And you’ll look less like a f’n idiot.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Gotta say, masks during peak pollen season are a game changer when you have horrible seasonal allergies, especially when cutting grass.

Agree. But this is another thing the Covid experts wanted us to ignore the science on. Despite the fact that it was well known in the scientific community that regular masks did almost nothing to help with Covid.

 

[rowsdower88]

I answered that in the first sentence of post 13,589

IMO, you sure treated it like a tough question. You even answered that it is... probably... not true that the covid vaccines are deadlier than the virus. People don't describe things as "gotcha questions" if there was an easy answer for them.

Questioning the experts was not allowed, which goes against the scientific method, actually.

Plenty of people questioned the experts. There was plenty of disagreement. There was plenty of controversy. Some people still should have been ostracized from the medical community, and rightly so.

You want to say Peter McCullough was treated unfairly? Hard disagree. McCullough, that whole America's Frontline Doctors crew, and the Associstion of American Physicians and Surgeons received justified skepticism and occasional rebuking from the medical community.

Maybe you have someone in mind you think was treated unfairly, and I might even agree. But by and large, the big names the anti-vax crew usually cites have received justified reputational damage and in some cases the punishments and reputational harm weren't enough IMO.

It's MAGA revisionism to say "questioning the experts was not allowed" and has been since 2019.

 

[rowsdower88]

So is Zyrtec. And you’ll look less like a f’n idiot.

So much of this response is based in a weird cultural taboo.

If you have a cold in some countries, it is common courtesy to put a mask on. It's a thoughtful and kind gesture to your fellow citizens. I think it would be great if we reduced the stigma around masking for a variety of reasons. That's unlikely to happen anytime soon here.

 

[maxxor]

So is Zyrtec. And you’ll look less like a f’n idiot.

Zyrtec is not enough when it’s over 9000.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

The "tough question" to you is "are the vaccines deadlier than the disease?".

I don't think that's a tough question.

I don’t think this was truly ever about “is the virus deadlier than the vaccine”

Vaccine refusal for reasons of true health outcomes is in my mind a product of cognitive dissonance.

You feel better about yourself if you don’t get a vaccine “because it will hurt me” versus “I just don’t want to, and someone is trying to make me”.

This sort of cognitive failure is all over the place in politics. Left and right.

My reason for not getting the vaccine is that it packs such a wallop that it’s worth risking Covid versus guaranteeing 3-5 days of misery every 6-12 months. Mostly it’s a matter of inconvenience and doesn’t effectively prevent spread anyway so i don’t feel too bad about not getting it

 

[Gern Blansten]

Your intent was for it to be a gotcha question.
Disagree about people being allowed to question things during Covid. It was absolutely not tolerated by you or any others who share your beliefs. I watched it turn normal people into raving lunatics who cheered the deaths of the unvaccinated and hoped for people who did not share their enthusiasm for a vaccine to lose their livelihood. There was a middle ground in there and it was definitely not tolerated by you or many others. That is what I fought for and got hung out to dry for on a different thread. I made the ridiculous assertion that we should not wish for financial ruin or death or family ostracization for those who are unvaccinated and that freedom to make your own decisions about your healthcare was a good thing, even while we encouraged them to make wise choices. Demonizing those who disagree with you on a topic ( which you do regularly) has little chance to win a person over to your side.

 

[rowsdower88]

I don’t think this was truly ever about “is the virus deadlier than the vaccine”

Vaccine refusal for reasons of true health outcomes is in my mind a product of cognitive dissonance.

You feel better about yourself if you don’t get a vaccine “because it will hurt me” versus “I just don’t want to, and someone is trying to make me”.

This sort of cognitive failure is all over the place in politics. Left and right.

My reason for not getting the vaccine is that it packs such a wallop that it’s worth risking Covid versus guaranteeing 3-5 days of misery every 6-12 months. Mostly it’s a matter of inconvenience and doesn’t effectively prevent spread anyway so i don’t feel too bad about not getting it

What? It's literally the polled question I've been talking about. See post 13544.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Zyrtec is not enough when it’s over 9000.

If you take 9000 Zyrtec, you’re probably gonna die. 🙂

 

[aneftp]

How did the ACA negatively impact anesthesiologists?

The anesthesia quality metrics are nonsense..but generally not a big issue

ACA increases the number of patients, I which increases surgeries, which increases demand for anesthesia. Good thing.

Insurance reimbursement? Goes down because it's always going down. This is primarily affected by the non compete contracts and OON billing bans. ACA didn't change those

I wasn't able to find any concrete info on Google about significant impacts

Explain why insurance and Medicare payments for hospitals go up under ACA.

And yes we all know about bs metrics and tie in with the metric blah blah blah 1% decease if hospitals have x amount of complication

What you are saying is docs should work more for less money. Say a doc make $100 per patient x 40 patients a day ($4000) . Ur analogy is to have a have the doc see 50 patients for $90 a patient ($4500)

While the hospitals see year after year Medicare Payment increases regardless of number of patients.

Insurance reimbursements are dependent on market share of hospitals and even anesthesia market share (see usap fcc lawsuits). Insurance patients go UP if the hospitals has market share. In central Florida where I live. Two major hospitals system charge pretty much the most in the USA in terms of facility fees. Insurance Payments go UP with more hospifos mergers. That’s why hospitals were merger. So they can strong arm insurance companies

Anyone see if United Healthcare decease their premiums on Colorado due to usap breakdown? Nah. Ain’t gonna to happen. United health care just pads their pocket pockets. Zero savings being passing to surprise billing bill or usap breakdown. You are living in la la land if you think these thing s happen.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Gotta say, masks during peak pollen season are a game changer when you have horrible seasonal allergies, especially when cutting grass.

You make a good point. I don't have allergy issues, but I do nearly choke to death if I don't wear a mask blowing all the Spring **** every year off of the somewhat contained space front and back porch and deck.

 

[rowsdower88]

Your intent was for it to be a gotcha question.
Disagree about people being allowed to question things during Covid. It was absolutely not tolerated by you or any others who share your beliefs. I watched it turn normal people into raving lunatics who cheered the deaths of the unvaccinated and hoped for people who did not share their enthusiasm for a vaccine to lose their livelihood. There was a middle ground in there and it was definitely not tolerated by you or many others. That is what I fought for and got hung out to dry for on a different thread. I made the ridiculous assertion that we should not wish for financial ruin or death or family ostracization for those who are unvaccinated and that freedom to make your own decisions about your healthcare was a good thing, even while we encouraged them to make wise choices. Demonizing those who disagree with you on a topic ( which you do regularly) has little chance to win a person over to your side.

It's only a gotcha question if you think your answer is telling of something. You always could have answered it like you did with a big hedge.

Not tolerated by me? You mean because I named and shamed some of the quacks like McCullough? AB-SO-LUTELY. I'm not naming and shaming misinformed mom and pop Newsmax viewers.

You're making arguments that I wouldn't make for actual protesters. I think it's fair for protesters/anti-vaxxers to face occupational and reputational consequences for their beliefs. I think if you wanted to take a stand and not get the vaccine as a Healthcare worker there should be occupational harm with that decision.

Same if you don't want your kid vaccinated, they shouldn't get to go to public school.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

What? It's literally the polled question I've been talking about. See post 13544.

Ah, I didn’t see that. But anyone answering equivocally on the vaccine safety is in the mental block I described. Everyone knows it’s safe, but they want to imagine they’re being smart or doing something for their health not taking it. Not just being stubborn or avoidant.

I’m ok admitting that it’s too much of a pain. If there was a version more like regular flu vaccine for me side effect wise I’d consider it.

 

[nimbus]

It’s been sad to watch Gern’s progressive mental rot over the last few years.

Unfortunately this is something that has been happening at a large scale across the country. I don’t know if it’s social media or what, but something is breaking people’s brains.

Maybe too much fluoride 😉

Fluoride Exposure and Children’s IQ Scores

This systematic review and meta-analysis investigates the association between fluoride exposure and children’s IQ scores.

jamanetwork.com

 

[nimbus]

Just received from my sister in the family group chat..lol

“Hi guys! I am in DC home now🙂. Everything went perfectly. Got a very nice uber, a Lexus suv with gorgeous leather. The guy was laid off from NIH. Was a public health officer.“

 

[cchoukal]

Just received from my sister in the family group chat..lol

“Hi guys! I am in DC home now🙂. Everything went perfectly. Got a very nice uber, a Lexus suv with gorgeous leather. The guy was laid off from NIH. Was a public health officer.“

Was the driver wearing a mask?

 

[Gern Blansten]

Maybe too much fluoride 😉

Fluoride Exposure and Children’s IQ Scores

This systematic review and meta-analysis investigates the association between fluoride exposure and children’s IQ scores.

jamanetwork.com

I have been brushing my teeth more frequently…

 

[nimbus]

I have been brushing my teeth more frequently…

Need nontoxic toothpaste from the hippie co-op.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Need nontoxic toothpaste from the hippie co-op.

I use MAGA juice to brush my teeth, apparently.

 

[nimbus]

I use MAGA juice to brush my teeth, apparently.

Mmmmm…sounds delish

 

[pgg]

Agree. But this is another thing the Covid experts wanted us to ignore the science on. Despite the fact that it was well known in the scientific community that regular masks did almost nothing to help with Covid.

View attachment 404066

I'm surprised to see a doctor posting this. It was a common strategy among the uneducated to argue against mask use by citing the small size of a virus, and comparing it to what size contaminants could be filtered by a mask.

Of course, it was nonsense. Pathogens - even those with true airborne transmission like TB and measles - don't float around the air naked. Respiratory droplets are generally in the 5-10 micrometer range. Easily filtered by N95 masks.

With all masks, the efficacy went beyond protecting the wearer. Having a mask on limited the quantity of the wearer's respiratory droplets that were expelled into the environment, reducing spread of the disease. Masks were good public health policy. There were no compelling anti-mask arguments beyond looking like a f'n idiot or bizarre PLANdemic government control conspiracies.

Citing the size of a virus as a reason to not wear a mask is as ridiculous as the people who said they couldn't wear masks because it raised their CO2 levels.

 

[DocMcCoy]

So much of this response is based in a weird cultural taboo.

If you have a cold in some countries, it is common courtesy to put a mask on. It's a thoughtful and kind gesture to your fellow citizens. I think it would be great if we reduced the stigma around masking for a variety of reasons. That's unlikely to happen anytime soon here.

That’s one thing man. Same with masking up while cutting grass, or smartly concealing your identity while “peacefully protesting”.

If you are out camping in the middle of nowhere or sitting by yourself in your car though, my first thought is ya, that guy is a f’n idiot.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I'm surprised to see a doctor posting this. It was a common strategy among the uneducated to argue against mask use by citing the small size of a virus, and comparing it to what size contaminants could be filtered by a mask.

Of course, it was nonsense. Pathogens - even those with true airborne transmission like TB and measles - don't float around the air naked. Respiratory droplets are generally in the 5-10 micrometer range. Easily filtered by N95 masks.

With all masks, the efficacy went beyond protecting the wearer. Having a mask on limited the quantity of the wearer's respiratory droplets that were expelled into the environment, reducing spread of the disease. Masks were good public health policy. There were no compelling anti-mask arguments beyond looking like a f'n idiot or bizarre PLANdemic government control conspiracies.

Citing the size of a virus as a reason to not wear a mask is as ridiculous as the people who said they couldn't wear masks because it raised their CO2 levels.

One question for you. Do you wear a different surgical mask when doing a laser condyloma case than you do for a lap chole? Does your surgeon? Do you think it makes a difference ?

Here is an excerpt from a 2013 pub (before people forgot the generally understood principles of effectiveness and limitations of surgical masks)

Use of Surgical Masks in the Operating Room: A Review of the Clinical Effectiveness and Guidelines [Internet] - PubMed

Postoperative wound infections increase length of hospital stay, cost of care, and morbidity. Infections occurring in a wound created by an invasive surgical procedure are referred to as surgical site infections (SSIs). SSIs account for a significant fraction of health care associated...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“In the operating room (OR) there are procedures and practices in place intended to reduce the probability of infectious material transfer between OR staff and patients. Surgical face masks (SFMs) provide a physical barrier between bacteria of oropharyngeal and nasopharyngeal origin and an open patient wound. Wearing a SFM in the OR is one of many long standing preventative practices, yet controversy exists as to the clinical effectiveness of SFMs in reducing the frequency of SSIs. Additionally, SFMs potentially protect OR staff by providing a physical barrier to infectious bodily fluid splashes from the patient. General purpose disposable SFMs however, are not specifically designed to protect the wearer from airborne infectious particulates. A review of clinical effectiveness and evidence-based guidelines for mask use in the OR can inform practice decisions to minimize the occurrence of SSIs and OR staff infections.“

This meta-analysis was done precovid but published in 2021

Are facemasks a priority for all staff in theatre to prevent surgical site infections during shortages of supply? A systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed

The use of facemasks by scrubbed staff during implant surgery should be mandatory to prevent infection. We recommend the use of facemasks by all scrubbed staff during other forms of surgery to protect the patient and staff, but the supporting evidence is weak. There is insufficient evidence to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Conclusion: The use of facemasks by scrubbed staff during implant surgery should be mandatory to prevent infection. We recommend the use of facemasks by all scrubbed staff during other forms of surgery to protect the patient and staff, but the supporting evidence is weak. There is insufficient evidence to show that non-scrubbed staff must wear masks during surgery.“

Like you, I am very surprised that a doctor doesn’t understand the limitations of a surgical mask. One paper from years ago showed that, after about 15 minutes, a surgical mask in an infected person was saturated and any respiratory pathogens were passing out the side of the mask in a significant amount, basically rendering it almost useless. There were actually quite a few people advocating that only surgeons and scrub techs who were directly over the surgical wound really needed to wear a mask, yet fully realizing that the optics would likely never allow that to be adopted practice.

I suspect you knew this though. I think you’re a pretty smart person.

 

[rowsdower88]

That’s one thing man. Same with masking up while cutting grass, or smartly concealing your identity while “peacefully protesting”.

If you are out camping in the middle of nowhere or sitting by yourself in your car though, my first thought is ya, that guy is a f’n idiot.

-shrug-

Doesn't bother me. Maybe if he was scuba diving with a mask on I might have some questions, otherwise it's just a guy doing his own thing. I don't have the immediate reaction to label such a person a f`n idiot. Seems cultural/political(?).

 

[DocMcCoy]

You want to say Peter McCullough was treated unfairly? Hard disagree. McCullough, that whole America's Frontline Doctors crew, and the Associstion of American Physicians and Surgeons received justified skepticism and occasional rebuking from the medical community.

Maybe you have someone in mind you think was treated unfairly, and I might even agree. But by and large, the big names the anti-vax crew usually cites have received justified reputational damage and in some cases the punishments and reputational harm weren't enough IMO.

It's MAGA revisionism to say "questioning the experts was not allowed" and has been since 2019.

What? Come on man. The left was labeling those that asked too many questions as domestic terrorists. That’s not a bridge too far for you?

 

[rowsdower88]

What? Come on man. The left was labeling those that asked too many questions as domestic terrorists. That’s not a bridge too far for you?

IRL or someone on here? Big difference.

Do you have a sample person in mind? Like I said: "Maybe you have someone in mind you think was treated unfairly, and I might even agree. But by and large, the big names the anti-vax crew usually cites have received justified reputational damage"

 

[Splenda88]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/24/politics/house-tax-spending-cuts-bill-explained

Despite the chaos, we all should be ok here with the Trump tax cut. I did not vote for the guy, but he will be good for me economically. No one cares about deficit/debt anymore, so why not get extra $$$ when the government is wasting money.

"Higher-income taxpayers would come out ahead, with 60% of the tax cuts going to the top 20%, who have incomes of at least $217,000, next year and more than a third going to the top 5%, or those who earn $460,000 or more, according to the center."

 

[Gern Blansten]

As I reread this, perhaps you’re talking about N-95 respirators. If so, we’re not talking about the same scenarios. I do believe that N-95s are very effective.
The issue being discussed is the standard surgical mask, not the N-95. That is why, in my post, I said “regular masks.”
Sorry if you didn’t see that when you responded.

 

[pgg]

One question for you. Do you wear a different surgical mask when doing a laser condyloma case than you do for a lap chole? Does your surgeon? Do you think it makes a difference ?

Of course it does, and of course I do, but that wasn't the point. I'll just quote myself and bold a few bits because obviously you missed them the first time:

With all masks, the efficacy went beyond protecting the wearer. Having a mask on limited the quantity of the wearer's respiratory droplets that were expelled into the environment, reducing spread of the disease. Masks were good public health policy. There were no compelling anti-mask arguments beyond looking like a f'n idiot or bizarre PLANdemic government control conspiracies.

I did not expect an ordinary surgical mask to protect me vs COVID, but it protected other people if I was infected. Given the ease of wearing one in public, I did so.

I do not expect an ordinary surgical mask to protect me during laser condyloma cases, but I'm not the one expelling virus-laden droplets and putting others at risk.

Like you, I am very surprised that a doctor doesn’t understand the limitations of a surgical mask.

I'm surprised that you replied to my post either without reading it, or without understanding it.


Look, I'm not advocating that we do everything and anything regardless of cost if it reduces disease transmission even a tiny bit. During the pandemic, new cases of gonorrhea plummeted as a result of all the social distancing. But continuing social distancing to keep STD infection rates low is dumb.

There was a compelling argument for wearing masks to reduce COVID transmission at the height of the pandemic.

The argument you seem to be making is that
1) wearing ordinary surgical masks was not useful because it didn't provide a high level of protection to the wearer
2) you just don't care that it provided some protection to others

 

[GravelRider]

That’s one thing man. Same with masking up while cutting grass, or smartly concealing your identity while “peacefully protesting”.

If you are out camping in the middle of nowhere or sitting by yourself in your car though, my first thought is ya, that guy is a f’n idiot.

I do frequent yardwork/gardening and often throw a bandana or similar on when I’m kicking up a lot of dust or there is an especially thick coat of pollen floating in the air. The trees on the east coast this time of year dump a metric **** ton of pollen into the atmosphere. Zyrtec is for weenies. I don’t get allergies like some low T nerd, but the pure volume of pollen in the air this time of year calls for masking up if I’m outside in it.

I wear a respirator when I do woodworking, sanding, or working with chemicals. Do I look like a dork? I hope so.

 

[pgg]

I wear a respirator when I do woodworking, sanding, or working with chemicals. Do I look like a dork? I hope so.

Pfft.

I bet you don't have the balls to look at solar eclipses like this guy, too -

 

[chessknt]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/24/politics/house-tax-spending-cuts-bill-explained

Despite the chaos, we all should be ok here with the Trump tax cut. I did not vote for the guy, but he will be good for me economically. No one cares about deficit/debt anymore, so why not get extra $$$ when the government is wasting money.

"Higher-income taxpayers would come out ahead, with 60% of the tax cuts going to the top 20%, who have incomes of at least $217,000, next year and more than a third going to the top 5%, or those who earn $460,000 or more, according to the center."

I have kids so my view of the future goes beyond what is immediately good for me. I think this bill is a travesty and an abuse of reconciliation, especially for all the non budget authoritarian bull**** that has been shoved in to it. Blatantly timing tax increase around presidential elections is the ever growing pressure to destroy any chance of encouraging compromise. We will be an increasingly unstable class of oppressors and oppressed until one group destroys the other.

 

[Gern Blansten]

The argument you seem to be making is that
1) wearing ordinary surgical masks was not useful because it didn't provide a high level of protection to the wearer
2) you just don't care that it provided some protection to others

I posted pub med indexed articles to support the uncertainty of the evidence to support what you state as facts that cannot be argued or disputed. The efficacy of a standard surgical mask to protect yourself or others has been in question long before Covid.

 

[Splenda88]

I have kids so my view of the future goes beyond what is immediately good for me. I think this bill is a travesty and an abuse of reconciliation, especially for all the non budget authoritarian bull**** that has been shoved in to it.

Believe it or not, your kids will be ok because they will be the beneficiary of that wealth transfer. Look at it that way, the country will be screwed but your kids will be the less screwed among all the "screwed ones".

At this stage, we have to accept these lawmakers don't care about debt/deficit and the electorate, especially the bottom 80%, is not sophisticated enough to understand that they are stealing from them to give to the top 1% (especially the top 0.1%).

I am not part of the top 1% unfortunately, but I am ok to get a few breadcrumbs.

 

[cchoukal]

I posted pub med indexed articles to support the uncertainty of the evidence to support what you state as facts that cannot be argued or disputed. The efficacy of a standard surgical mask to protect yourself or others has been in question long before Covid.

Did you read the article you posted? One was a think-piece and the other a meta-analysis that showed, among other things, that if the guy breathing on the wound didn't wear a mask, the OR for colonization more than tripled. Is that the point you were trying to make?

And in any case, neither of these addressed, even thematically, the point being debated.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Did you read the article you posted? One was a think-piece and the other a meta-analysis that showed, among other things, that if the guy breathing on the wound didn't wear a mask, the OR for colonization more than tripled. Is that the point you were trying to make?

And in any case, neither of these addressed, even thematically, the point being debated.

This is a direct quote from the meta-analysis. You ignored the first portion and focused only on the one study that was the outlier. Even including the one outlier study, the pooled data actually showed better SSI scores in the no mask group.

“The pooled effect of not wearing facemasks was a risk ratio for infection of 0.77 (0.62-0.97) in favour of not wearing masks. Only one case-controlled study evaluated facemask usage in implant surgery and demonstrated an odds ratio for developing infection of 3.34 (95% CI 1.94-5.74) if facemasks were not worn by the operating surgeon.”

To be clear, I am not saying none of us should wear masks in surgery. But I am saying that there is a lack of clear data that shows a direct benefit. It seems like it should be beneficial, so we do it. But the major point I’m trying to make is, pre Covid, we knew regular surgical masks had severe limitations in preventing transmission of pathogens. Once Covid hit, everyone seemed to pretend that information never existed and that masks were a cure all for Covid, both for protecting ourselves and for protecting those around us. I can’t be the only one who remembers that data existed precovid.

My point was to show the limitations of regular masks and the paucity of data that support the efficacy of regular masks. This is science that was known (or better stated, uncertain) in the precovid era.

 

[Dragonite7]

TikTok creator company tied to China wants $300M in Trump’s memecoin

The firm, which employs eight people to create videos for TikTok, earned no revenue last year — yet somehow found a way to purchase as much as $300 million of $TRUMP.

www.independent.co.uk

Latest bribe in the billions Trump has openly taken. $300m from China this time.

 

[cchoukal]

Oh, I read it, including the heterogeneity estimates and differential bias, rendering pooled estimates virtually useless, leaving us to learn anything useful only from the individual studies.

"Overall, there is relatively little direct clinical evidence to support or refute the usage of masks in the operating room. The quality of the available studies is low, with all the studies supplying direct clinical evidence having significant risk of bias."

You probably realized that the subtext of the study was resource limitations because PEOPLE THOUGHT WE SHOULD BE WEARING MASKS DURING A RESPIRATORY PANDEMIC.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

TikTok creator company tied to China wants $300M in Trump’s memecoin

The firm, which employs eight people to create videos for TikTok, earned no revenue last year — yet somehow found a way to purchase as much as $300 million of $TRUMP.

www.independent.co.uk

Latest bribe in the billions Trump has openly taken. $300m from China this time.

Trump hates losing if even coming in second place. All he's trying to do is catch up to the Bidens.

 

[UscGhost]

Somehow, questioning people’s far left thoughts and asking difficult questions is considered brain rot now. Believing everything you are told and blindly following is the new gold standard. You’re doing great, I guess. Question nothing. I’m sure it will work out perfectly

Questioning is fine, but the far right folks blindly question everything. It starts to fall into flat earth territory.

Masks for example. At the start of the pandemic, there was little information available about the virus, transmission, etc. So, masks were a practical, cheap and zero risk mitigation strategy. 99% of folks that "questioned" it, had no factual or logical reason to question it. They just wanted to rebel against authority for the sake of it. If masks ended up not working as well as hypothesized, oh well, the only thing that was risked was money

The reason we know this, is that the same folks who questioned masks, under the supposed rationale that they weren't proven effective, also were the same people who rebelled against vaccines, regardless of their long clear history of safety and efficacy. So clearly the safety/efficacy excuse doesn't apply. They just wanted to rebel for the sake of it.

Then they picked the reason that "oh well vaccines don't prevent transmission". Well that would be great if they did, but that's a extremely high bar to set, and largely not nearly as important and preventing death and hospitalizations (which it did exceedingly well).

And again, those same folks "question" other vaccines (polio, measles, etc) despite the fact that they DO prevent transmission.

So clearly, that's not the reason either.

And finally, if the argument is , people have the right to choose to vax or not. Yes and no. Citizens agree to a social contract when they are part of a society. Ethically, You don't get to choose to go against public health advisors and then consume limited public health resources. Is it fair that the ICU is full of anti vaxxers and has no room for a CVA/MI?

If you have a legit medical reason, totally fine. But we all know that 99% of anti vaxxers don't. So it's nonsense.

This whole "questioning" thing is ******ed, as 99% of folks don't understand the question they are asking, or how to understand the answers they get. Next thing we know, we will have airline passengers going into the cockpit to "question" the pilot about what speed and altitude we should be flying at. It's complete nonsense

 

[DocMcCoy]

This whole "questioning" thing is ******ed, as 99% of folks don't understand the question they are asking, or how to understand the answers they get. Next thing we know, we will have airline passengers going into the cockpit to "question" the pilot about what speed and altitude we should be flying at. It's complete nonsense

It is 100 percent appropriate for a layperson to question a MANDATE. Six feet, mass shutdowns, closing schools… there was a lot of controversy surrounding the appropriateness of COVID measures both in frequency and duration. Let’s not forget, the government did a piss poor job (as always) in framing the pandemic.

These guys are just masking up to stop the spread of a “disease” too, amirite?

 

[UscGhost]

It is 100 percent appropriate for a layperson to question a MANDATE. Six feet, mass shutdowns, closing schools… there was a lot of controversy surrounding the appropriateness of COVID measures both in frequency and duration. Let’s not forget, the government did a piss poor job (as always) in framing the pandemic.

These guys are just masking up to stop the spread of a “disease” too, amirite?

View attachment 404099

Why is it appropriate for a layperson to question a public health mandate? What's the difference between a mandate and a law? Public health officials have the legal authority to implement public health measures. Voters gave them that authority (either directly or indirectly.

So it's no more appropriate to question it(and by question it, most people mean disobey it in this context) than it is to disobey any other safety law (seatbelts, DUI, etc). After all, society has laws for all kinds of personal behaviors (drugs, alcohol, smoking, nudity, speeding,).

If you say it's appropriate. Then under what conditions is it inappropriate?

Medically speaking, it's not appropriate as 99% of folks have no expertise or knowledge sufficient to legit question it.

So as far as I can see it, it's not legally or medically appropriate. Morally /ethically it puts others at risk as well. So what criteria are you using to define whether it's appropriate.

If your argument is that it's your body, your decision.
.I'll ignore the fact that a large portion of the anti vaxxers/maskers are also pro lifers as that would be entirely hypocritical.

Nevertheless, you give up that right when you enter a public space or private business that adheres to mandate. Can't have it both ways.

If you want to live off the grid, not follow any mandates and not consume any public resources or endanger others (and this not participate in the social contract)...then I couldn't care less what you do.

But those antivaxxers certainly had no problems flooding into the public ICUs and consuming resources

In the end, the right to question it is fine. Ask all the questions you want. But then you need to be mentally prepared to follow the guidance when the preponderance of available evidence and expert opinion says so. 99% of those folks have no intention of following the advice regardless of the answers to their questions. So in that case, they had no real intention to question it all all...they simply intended to disobey/ignore it all along and cowardly hid behind the "right to question" because otherwise they would look like an idiot for not following common sense medical advice

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Questioning is fine, but the far right folks blindly question everything. It starts to fall into flat earth territory.

The deplorables care nothing about policy. They just want to "own the libs" cloaked in a veil of right-wing religious righteousness.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Why is it appropriate for a layperson to question a public health mandate?

What kind of dystopian nightmare do you want to live in?

It is ALWAYS appropriate to question mandates (and laws). Questioning government officials holds them accountable and prevents abuse of power. If it wasn’t for questioning, California might still have their schools closed.

In a legal sense, questioning the application of laws is literally why we have due process and a court system. (Like, literally everything Trump related in the news.)

What's the difference between a mandate and a law?

Laws are created through legislation and a stringent process laid out by the constitution. Mandates generally aren’t, which is even more of a reason to question them.

So it's no more appropriate to question it(and by question it, most people mean disobey it in this context) than it is to disobey any other safety law (seatbelts, DUI, etc). After all, society has laws for all kinds of personal behaviors (drugs, alcohol, smoking, nudity, speeding,).

Society has historically questioned or is currently questioning many of those safety laws through lobbying, advocacy, grass roots efforts or more direct means like protest… legalization of marijuana, age of alcohol consumption (which at one time was illegal right?), smoking/vaping age, speed limits…

Medically speaking, it's not appropriate as 99% of folks have no expertise or knowledge sufficient to legit question it.

Lol. I’ll remember that argument ever time some liberal anti gunner pops off on why we need to ban “silencers”, “high capacity clips”, and “assault weapons”.

It’s appropriate for a layman to be question their “fourth booster” for a “new variant”especially if they were young and healthy.

But those antivaxxers certainly had no problems flooding into the public ICUs and consuming resources

The old and sick were by and large the group flooding the ICUs. That’s a fact. Though it is true antivaxxers utilized more healthcare resources than the vaccinated during the peak of the pandemic… Just as individuals with a myriad of preventable or manageable disease processes do on a routine basis, without the condemnation.

It’s no secret that some of the COVID measures were overly draconian in hindsight. As far as world ending catastrophic events goes, COVID barely registered on the “oh sht” meter. I shudder to think what you would want the world to look like, and what you would be willing to give up next time.

 

[UscGhost]

What kind of dystopian nightmare do you want to live in?

It is ALWAYS appropriate to question mandates (and laws). Questioning government officials holds them accountable and prevents abuse of power. If it wasn’t for questioning, California might still have their schools closed.

In a legal sense, questioning the application of laws is literally why we have due process and a court system. (Like, literally everything Trump related in the news.)



Laws are created through legislation and a stringent process laid out by the constitution. Mandates generally aren’t, which is even more of a reason to question them.



Society has historically questioned or is currently questioning many of those safety laws through lobbying, advocacy, grass roots efforts or more direct means like protest… legalization of marijuana, age of alcohol consumption (which at one time was illegal right?), smoking/vaping age, speed limits…



Lol. I’ll remember that argument ever time some liberal anti gunner pops off on why we need to ban “silencers”, “high capacity clips”, and “assault weapons”.

It’s appropriate for a layman to be question their “fourth booster” for a “new variant”especially if they were young and healthy.



The old and sick were by and large the group flooding the ICUs. That’s a fact. Though it is true antivaxxers utilized more healthcare resources than the vaccinated during the peak of the pandemic… Just as individuals with a myriad of preventable or manageable disease processes do on a routine basis, without the condemnation.

It’s no secret that some of the COVID measures were overly draconian in hindsight. As far as world ending catastrophic events goes, COVID barely registered on the “oh sht” meter. I shudder to think what you would want the world to look like, and what you would be willing to give up next time.

Dystopian nightmare? Pretty sure it takes more than a mask to do that. So relax on the slippery slope.

Questioning laws? Go for it. Lobby all you want. But society doesn't allow for folks to disobey the law using the excuse that they are questioning it. You don't get to snort cocaine and tell the judge that you are questioning the laws so you get out of jail free

Public health officials have the LEGAL power to issue public health mandates. It's the law.

Non vaccinated vastly over utilized resources. If we had a simple and safe vaccine for diabetes, cardiac disease and people refused to take it for nonsensical reasons, then they should be condemned

Some of the COVID measures were harsh, some were not. The closures certainly would have ended SOONER if everyone was vaccinated, as they were tied to ICU availability. So if those anti vaxxers were so hard up against closures, maybe they should have gotten vaccinated and stayed out of the ICU/morgue

 

[DocMcCoy]

Dystopian nightmare? Pretty sure it takes more than a mask to do that. So relax on the slippery slope.

Widespread lockdowns, small businesses shuttered forever, kids prevented from going to school, social distancing, snitch hotlines promoting reporting of neighbors violating mandates, school boards begging DOJ to treat angry parents as domestic terrorists with the attorney general’s blessing. While Pelosi was out getting her hair did and Newsome was dining out…Seemed pretty damn dystopian to me at the time.

Non vaccinated vastly over utilized resources. If we had a simple and safe vaccine for diabetes, cardiac disease and people refused to take it for nonsensical reasons, then they should be condemned

You only condemn them from political motivation. We have simple and safe interventions for many disease processes that are nonsensically ignored. Polysubstance abuse patient OD in the ICU, you condemning them? How about polytrauma MCC that wasnt wearing a helmet? IV drug user that got hep c from a dirty needle and needs a new liver? End stage COPD’er from years of smoking? The BMI 60 that hasn’t given up McDonalds TID?

Some of the COVID measures were harsh, some were not. The closures certainly would have ended SOONER if everyone was vaccinated, as they were tied to ICU availability. So if those anti vaxxers were so hard up against closures, maybe they should have gotten vaccinated and stayed out of the ICU/morgue

Right, all those 5 year olds taking up ventilators is why we had to shut down kindergarten for a year.

 

[UscGhost]

Widespread lockdowns, small businesses shuttered forever, kids prevented from going to school, social distancing, snitch hotlines promoting reporting of neighbors violating mandates, school boards begging DOJ to treat angry parents as domestic terrorists with the attorney general’s blessing. While Pelosi was out getting her hair did and Newsome was dining out…Seemed pretty damn dystopian to me at the time.



You only condemn them from political motivation. We have simple and safe interventions for many disease processes that are nonsensically ignored. Polysubstance abuse patient OD in the ICU, you condemning them? How about polytrauma MCC that wasnt wearing a helmet? IV drug user that got hep c from a dirty needle and needs a new liver? End stage COPD’er from years of smoking? The BMI 60 that hasn’t given up McDonalds TID?



Right, all those 5 year olds taking up ventilators is why we had to shut down kindergarten for a year.

Didn't like the lockdowns? Get vaccinated. Otherwise, don't complain. Lockdowns occurred all over the world, basically every civilized and non civilized country alike, hardly dystopian and it was lifted once ICUs and hospitals had space for all you freedom fighters! Besides, many people actually enjoyed the time off...it was boring though


Kids don't get to go to school mainly because the teachers were dying. Don't like it? Get vaccinated and the schools can reopen sooner. The maga chose to make it political.

Were those parents peaceful or violent? Violent. So get them out of school boards meetings.

Condemn them from politicial motivation? I don't care what there politics are. Get vaccinated and stay out of the ICU and go maga all you want.

Drug use? Illegal
Smoking? I would be glad if it's illegal. Vaccine for it? No. Otherwise it's immensely addicting so I don't condemn people for getting hooked. Bad example

Helmets? Also illegal to not use one

Funny how your examples are for behaviors that society made illegal.. precisely because of the strain on public resources and public health

BMI 60? Vaccine or a single pill for that? No. So bad example

Find me a medical condition where is a single injection (or 5 injections even) that vastly reduces its morbidity and mortality with minimal side effects for 99% of folks...and if you do...I'll gladly condemn those who don't utilize it. Frankly, vaccines are the only slam dunk we have in medicine.

 

[chessknt]

Didn't like the lockdowns? Get vaccinated. Otherwise, don't complain. Lockdowns occurred all over the world, basically every civilized and non civilized country alike, hardly dystopian and it was lifted once ICUs and hospitals had space for all you freedom fighters! Besides, many people actually enjoyed the time off...it was boring though


Kids don't get to go to school mainly because the teachers were dying. Don't like it? Get vaccinated and the schools can reopen sooner. The maga chose to make it political.

Were those parents peaceful or violent? Violent. So get them out of school boards meetings.

Condemn them from politicial motivation? I don't care what there politics are. Get vaccinated and stay out of the ICU and go maga all you want.

Drug use? Illegal
Smoking? I would be glad if it's illegal. Vaccine for it? No. Otherwise it's immensely addicting so I don't condemn people for getting hooked. Bad example

Helmets? Also illegal to not use one

Funny how your examples are for behaviors that society made illegal.. precisely because of the strain on public resources and public health

BMI 60? Vaccine or a single pill for that? No. So bad example

Find me a medical condition where is a single injection (or 5 injections even) that vastly reduces its morbidity and mortality with minimal side effects for 99% of folks...and if you do...I'll gladly condemn those who don't utilize it. Frankly, vaccines are the only slam dunk we have in medicine.

I appreciate your arguments but you are arguing with Trump's golden retrievers here. No amount of science/data/logic/empathy is going to get through if they don't get a clear groupthink signal from the proto-fascist party's leadership that it is OK first. The educated members of the cult mask their adherence to the party mandate in fancier bull**** but in the end it is all bull**** reinforcing their bias.

****ers should understand that the hospital being gummed up with vented/seriously ill middle aged + people would have killed everyone else that got sick from anything else which was the reason for the lockdowns given the rapid spread of the disease but instead the post-hoc is that it was a net harm because of XYZ even though we never saw how bad it would have been in their imaginary hellscape scenario because of the lockdowns. Complete disrespect for all the nurses/doctors/techs etc that died from getting the disease too working to save all the people that were getting sick with reused ineffective PPE in half ass rigged negative pressure set ups but we already forgot about those people I guess. Not worth the energy imo.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Didn't like the lockdowns? Get vaccinated. Otherwise, don't complain. Lockdowns occurred all over the world, basically every civilized and non civilized country alike, hardly dystopian and it was lifted once ICUs and hospitals had space for all you freedom fighters! Besides, many people actually enjoyed the time off...it was boring though

Little revisionist history here. There were varying degrees of lockdown. The defense of which was to slow the spread and flatten the curve prior to effective vaccines. That they were tied only to hospital resources is somewhat disingenuous, especially when you consider how long and how draconian they were in states like california and Michigan where their fearless leaders where doing sht like this.

California governor went to party, violated own virus rules

California Gov. Gavin Newsom has been pleading with his state's nearly 40 million residents not to gather in groups, even with friends and family.

apnews.com

Kids don't get to go to school mainly because the teachers were dying. Don't like it? Get vaccinated and the schools can reopen sooner. The maga chose to make it political.

Give me a break. It isn’t like we couldn’t staff the teachers because healthy ones were dying like flies. Certainly were able to maintain the staff in a lot of hospitals, and where there were shortages, it was due to increased demand and burnout. Not because doctors and nurses were dropping like flies. Any school closures in 2021 and 2022 were purely political, and it sure as sht wasn’t MAGA.

Were those parents peaceful or violent? Violent. So get them out of school boards meetings.

First of all, how did the school board define violent? Secondly, why did they walk back their statement? Thirdly, were they just asking parents to be removed from school board meetings, or where they asking the DOJ to use the patriot act and consider the domestic terrorists?

Funny how your examples are for behaviors that society made illegal.. precisely because of the strain on public resources and public health

BMI 60? Vaccine or a single pill for that? No. So bad example

Of course, case in point, it’s easy to rationalize away the cases when it doesn’t conflict with your politics.

Excessive alcohol and smoking are legal everybody knows it ain’t good for you. We have a mountain of evidence, it’s taught in schools. Those people chew up resources.

We have insulin for diabetics. They refuse to take it as prescribed, they chew up resources.

Not eating junk food doesn’t even require work. Morbidly obese chew up resources.

Even in the cases that aren’t legal, nobody is taking your livelihood away from you not wearing a seatbelt or a helmet.

Find me a medical condition where is a single injection (or 5 injections even) that vastly reduces its morbidity and mortality with minimal side effects for 99% of folks...and if you do...I'll gladly condemn those who don't utilize it. Frankly, vaccines are the only slam dunk we have in medicine.

Effective and worthwhile for most sure. I’m not anti vax, and some are really good. BUT average efficacy of the influenza vaccine is about 50 percent. And ehh why did we need all the Covid boosters? I wouldn’t necessary call that a slam dunk in all cases.