Biden Out of Race

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As terrible as it may sound to distill it down to this - I think a lot of people are aware of the credible allegations of Israeli war crimes in Gaza, but struggle to find it in them to care.

In broad terms, I am supportive of Israel. If I had to "pick a side" it'd easily be Israel. I think they've made a lot of strategic and tactical errors that made war crimes vs Gaza civilians likely if not inevitable. I think they had options for a better response. But I can't find it in me to fault them for channeling their inner ghengis khan and bringing swords and wagon wheels to Gaza.

I'm just ... shrug. What did they think would happen when their elected government attacked a nation state and took hostages? There's a point at which the civilian population of a nation are ultimately held responsible and accountable for the deeds of their government. In all places, all times, kids suffer for their parents' poor decisions and misconduct. Tragedy all around.

But anyway.

I'm more disturbed by what Israel is doing in the West Bank, than what they're doing in Gaza.

The person I was responding to said they "don't believe Israel is committing war crimes". Is that good faith "I haven't done the reading" or bad faith "Israel is an innocent actor"?

I couldn't tell.

There is very little interest in a robust defense of human rights from either American political party at the moment which is a shame.
 
If anyone steps foot into the US, kills hundreds/thousands, take hostages; I would expect the US to go nuclear. What the US did to ISIS and the Middle East after 9/11 was a greater use of force. There was exponentially more casualties than what Israel has done.

I applaud Israel for doing whatever it takes to eradicate Hamas. Palestinians died, it sucks, but it’s the causality of war. Palestinians aided Hamas all these years and they are just as culpable.
 
Once upon a time real conservatives thought his character and behavior were disqualifying, too.

The people who have changed are the Trump cultists who think lies and crimes don't matter any more.
Nope. Time has changed. It was worse back then than now as society has changed. Plus doing it as president is worse than what a private citizen does. But u already know this.

DJT syndrome has u under a spell
 
Words have meaning.

When you misuse a term like "genocide" for propaganda purposes it dilutes the word and harms actual victims of that crime.
Correct, thus my use of the word. Wiping out a quarter of population constitutes genocide
 
If anyone steps foot into the US, kills hundreds/thousands, take hostages; I would expect the US to go nuclear. What the US did to ISIS and the Middle East after 9/11 was a greater use of force. There was exponentially more casualties than what Israel has done.

No disagreement there. Of course, we did commit some war crimes over there. Abu Ghraib is more or less a textbook example

One of the many tragedies of war is that war crimes are essentially inevitable. They always happen. They're never equally committed in a bothsidesbad.jpg kind of way, but it's disingenuous to claim that they don't happen.

Of course Israeli forces have committed war crimes in Gaza. Equal to what Hamas has done? Of course not. But let's not pretend anyone's conduct is completely above reproach.

I applaud Israel for doing whatever it takes to eradicate Hamas. Palestinians died, it sucks, but it’s the causality of war. Palestinians aided Hamas all these years and they are just as culpable.

I can't really applaud Israel because they've made bad strategic decisions. They had better options than invading and leveling the place. There is no plausible exit strategy that doesn't grow another generation of people in Gaza who hate Israel and dedicate their short, miserable lives to harming Israel. To be blunt, Israel is L O S I N G the larger fight despite very effectively reducing their immediate risk by killing a lot of people and breaking a lot of things in Gaza. This foolishness really shouldn't be applauded.
 
No disagreement there. Of course, we did commit some war crimes over there. Abu Ghraib is more or less a textbook example

One of the many tragedies of war is that war crimes are essentially inevitable. They always happen. They're never equally committed in a bothsidesbad.jpg kind of way, but it's disingenuous to claim that they don't happen.

Of course Israeli forces have committed war crimes in Gaza. Equal to what Hamas has done? Of course not. But let's not pretend anyone's conduct is completely above reproach.



I can't really applaud Israel because they've made bad strategic decisions. They had better options than invading and leveling the place. There is no plausible exit strategy that doesn't grow another generation of people in Gaza who hate Israel and dedicate their short, miserable lives to harming Israel. To be blunt, Israel is L O S I N G the larger fight despite very effectively reducing their immediate risk by killing a lot of people and breaking a lot of things in Gaza. This foolishness really shouldn't be applauded.
Q: What better options?
IMO they had no good choices post Oct. 7 and their behavior has been about the least bad choice given the reality in which they reside.
 
No disagreement there. Of course, we did commit some war crimes over there. Abu Ghraib is more or less a textbook example

One of the many tragedies of war is that war crimes are essentially inevitable. They always happen. They're never equally committed in a bothsidesbad.jpg kind of way, but it's disingenuous to claim that they don't happen.

Of course Israeli forces have committed war crimes in Gaza. Equal to what Hamas has done? Of course not. But let's not pretend anyone's conduct is completely above reproach.



I can't really applaud Israel because they've made bad strategic decisions. They had better options than invading and leveling the place. There is no plausible exit strategy that doesn't grow another generation of people in Gaza who hate Israel and dedicate their short, miserable lives to harming Israel. To be blunt, Israel is L O S I N G the larger fight despite very effectively reducing their immediate risk by killing a lot of people and breaking a lot of things in Gaza. This foolishness really shouldn't be applauded.
Why do you feel like there’s some world where radical Muslims suddenly realize they’re in the modern world and become rational actors?

I’m pretty much with Sam Harris on this one. We know what the root of the problem is, and we also know that no humanitarian solution exists to that problem. There is no convincing the people in that region who don’t wanna be convinced that their beliefs are incompatible with modern living.

The best that I think could feasibly be achieved would be a massive forced migration out of Gaza into Egypt. Let radicals deal with radicals, I say. But that won’t happen because of cultural relativism, and the people who support it
 
That moment when you teach someone a new word and then they use it against you...("I'm not obtuse, you're obtuse.") and then act as if they have somehow bested you.
Don't recall you teaching anything, you are like your idol (solved the birthed issue) remember all the evidence the shocking things they found? Of course not reality hurts.
The moment the mental midget CLAIMS something blatantly untrue is the moment you know they are pedantic, obtuse, sophists pettifogging, auto didactic, and pompous.
 
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Why do you feel like there’s some world where radical Muslims suddenly realize they’re in the modern world and become rational actors?

I don't.

I'm totally cool with killing them. I just think Israel, despite killing a bunch of radial Muslims, is going to come out on the other side of this with more radical Muslims than they started with.

I’m pretty much with Sam Harris on this one. We know what the root of the problem is, and we also know that no humanitarian solution exists to that problem. There is no convincing the people in that region who don’t wanna be convinced that their beliefs are incompatible with modern living.

The best that I think could feasibly be achieved would be a massive forced migration out of Gaza into Egypt. Let radicals deal with radicals, I say. But that won’t happen because of cultural relativism, and the people who support it

Ah, ethnic cleansing. Someone upthread misused the term genocide. Maybe they'll read your post for an actual example of the term.
 
I don't.

I'm totally cool with killing them. I just think Israel, despite killing a bunch of radial Muslims, is going to come out on the other side of this with more radical Muslims than they started with.



Ah, ethnic cleansing. Someone upthread misused the term genocide. Maybe they'll read your post for an actual example of the term.
There is ample historical precedent for the western free world doing this in necessary situations in the 20th century. It was endorsed in 1945 by the entire free and unfree world.

I know you cultural relativists like to live in fantasy land, but in the real world these things have been done, with the agreement of the free world, and done relatively humanely.

 
Q: What better options?

Off the top of my head - what if they hadn't invaded Gaza?

What if, about Oct 14th, after the initial incursion had been repelled, the fires put out, the injured treated, the dead buried, and a bunch of troops parked by the border to prevent another incursion ...

What if, instead of shelling and bombing Gaza and mobilizing reserves for a ground invasion, Israel had decided to do three things:

1) Get a bunch of bulldozers and make a 1 km wide strip of barren wasteland in between Israel and Gaza. Flatten every building, uproot all vegetation. Put up a big fence. Rely on their very effective Iron Dome and other defensive systems to intercept indirect fire from Gaza. Seal the border completely. Make a point of not bombing or shelling Gaza.

2) Renewed diplomatic efforts with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon to isolate and marginalize Hamas. Complete economic blockade of Gaza.

3) Covert and overt targeted assassinations of Hamas leadership wherever they might be.

Would Israel not be at least as safe now, after doing these things, as they are now after their invasion of Gaza?

Would the cost not have been far, far less in monetary terms?

Would the cost of Israeli lives not have been far less?

Would the cost of Gaza lives not have been far less? (I'll grant you, many people don't really care about this.)

Would there not be fewer newly-made Gaza orphans to be radicalized into the next generation of Hamas/Hezbollah/etc soldiers and suicide bombers?

Would there not be fewer newly-made non-Gaza radicals ready to join the next generation of Hamas/Hezbollah/etc?

Would they not have recovered just as many hostages? They've been trading Palestinian prisoners for them. That could have been part of any other plan.


Hamas is winning. No, scratch that - Hamas won. They got exactly what they wanted. They're a death cult that wanted as many of their people to die martyr deaths as possible, and Israel has obliged them with great style. They're a movement that wanted to derail the normalization of relations between Israel and neighboring Arab countries, and they have largely succeeded.

Can any objective person can look at Israel's response, this exit-less quagmire of destruction in Gaza, and think "yeah that was a good idea" ...


IMO they had no good choices post Oct. 7 and their behavior has been about the least bad choice given the reality in which they reside.

They had poor options and terrible options. They chose a terrible option.

But also, let's not look at this through the narrow lens of the last 16 months: the options they had were built on 100 decisions made prior to October 7th. Some of those decisions were suboptimal.
 
There is ample historical precedent for the western free world doing this in necessary situations in the 20th century. It was endorsed in 1945 by the entire free and unfree world.

I know you cultural relativists like to live in fantasy land, but in the real world these things have been done, with the agreement of the free world, and done relatively humanely.

It has been done, if you are using Potsdam as a template, it was when we had very little choice. We had just finished the worst war in European history,were about to finish a devastating war in the pacific. The national will to continue the war for any reason other then national survival was nil.
A better example would be Rewanda, a genocide by any measure with ZERO national interest, there we ( the western world) did consent.
Another example is srebinincia? Spelling.
Most of us look at these as m9ral failings..not a matter of course that is ok.
You seem to think it is ok.
 
Off the top of my head - what if they hadn't invaded Gaza?

What if, about Oct 14th, after the initial incursion had been repelled, the fires put out, the injured treated, the dead buried, and a bunch of troops parked by the border to prevent another incursion ...

What if, instead of shelling and bombing Gaza and mobilizing reserves for a ground invasion, Israel had decided to do three things:

1) Get a bunch of bulldozers and make a 1 km wide strip of barren wasteland in between Israel and Gaza. Flatten every building, uproot all vegetation. Put up a big fence. Rely on their very effective Iron Dome and other defensive systems to intercept indirect fire from Gaza. Seal the border completely. Make a point of not bombing or shelling Gaza.

2) Renewed diplomatic efforts with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon to isolate and marginalize Hamas. Complete economic blockade of Gaza.

3) Covert and overt targeted assassinations of Hamas leadership wherever they might be.

Would Israel not be at least as safe now, after doing these things, as they are now after their invasion of Gaza?

Would the cost not have been far, far less in monetary terms?

Would the cost of Israeli lives not have been far less?

Would the cost of Gaza lives not have been far less? (I'll grant you, many people don't really care about this.)

Would there not be fewer newly-made Gaza orphans to be radicalized into the next generation of Hamas/Hezbollah/etc soldiers and suicide bombers?

Would there not be fewer newly-made non-Gaza radicals ready to join the next generation of Hamas/Hezbollah/etc?

Would they not have recovered just as many hostages? They've been trading Palestinian prisoners for them. That could have been part of any other plan.


Hamas is winning. No, scratch that - Hamas won. They got exactly what they wanted. They're a death cult that wanted as many of their people to die martyr deaths as possible, and Israel has obliged them with great style. They're a movement that wanted to derail the normalization of relations between Israel and neighboring Arab countries, and they have largely succeeded.

Can any objective person can look at Israel's response, this exit-less quagmire of destruction in Gaza, and think "yeah that was a good idea" ...




They had poor options and terrible options. They chose a terrible option.

But also, let's not look at this through the narrow lens of the last 16 months: the options they had were built on 100 decisions made prior to October 7th. Some of those decisions were suboptimal.
I will say your plan is AWESOME. I will also politically impossible. The equivalent in lives relative to population between the united states and Isreal would be ...I forget the numbers but tens of thousands of hostages and 120000 dead.
Now with 9/11 we lost what five to ten thousend , what did we do ? We invaded another country and did a 2 decade war.
No public will a certain anything less.
Does not mean the plan you outlined was bad.
 
It has been done, if you are using Potsdam as a template, it was when we had very little choice. We had just finished the worst war in European history,were about to finish a devastating war in the pacific. The national will to continue the war for any reason other then national survival was nil.
A better example would be Rewanda, a genocide by any measure with ZERO national interest, there we ( the western world) did consent.
Another example is srebinincia? Spelling.
Most of us look at these as m9ral failings..not a matter of course that is ok.
You seem to think it is ok.
The western world did not endorse the Rwandan genocide in any way. That was a civil war, not an international conflict.

After a 70 year conflict about Gaza, I’d say we have little choice unless we’re ok with it continuing, which in the long run is clearly worse for the people in Gaza.

And spare me the moralizing. You and other liberals actively defend the sovereignty of a people with a terror government that tosses lgbtq people off buildings.
 
If anyone steps foot into the US, kills hundreds/thousands, take hostages; I would expect the US to go nuclear. What the US did to ISIS and the Middle East after 9/11 was a greater use of force. There was exponentially more casualties than what Israel has done.

I applaud Israel for doing whatever it takes to eradicate Hamas. Palestinians died, it sucks, but it’s the causality of war. Palestinians aided Hamas all these years and they are just as culpable.


Netanyahu cynically aided Hamas too in order to make a 2 state solution with the PA impossible. The “mow the grass” strategy worked for a while until it didn’t.
 
The western world did not endorse the Rwandan genocide in any way. That was a civil war, not an international conflict.

After a 70 year conflict about Gaza, I’d say we have little choice unless we’re ok with it continuing, which in the long run is clearly worse for the people in Gaza.

And spare me the moralizing. You and other liberals actively defend the sovereignty of a people with a terror government that tosses lgbtq people off buildings.
I never did i think I have been very clear in my opinion of Islamic terrorism
 
The western world did not endorse the Rwandan genocide in any way. That was a civil war, not an international conflict.

After a 70 year conflict about Gaza, I’d say we have little choice unless we’re ok with it continuing, which in the long run is clearly worse for the people in Gaza.

And spare me the moralizing. You and other liberals actively defend the sovereignty of a people with a terror government that tosses lgbtq people off buildings.
Sure it did, we knew it was happening we could have intervened and we did nothing. We just let it happen. If the civil war had not been won by the tutsi the killing would have lasted more then 100 days..
 
His mom sent him a reprimanding and angry email in response to him doing things that ultimately led to the end of a marriage that his mother had hoped would last forever. Then, when cooler heads prevailed, she regretted her harsh reprimand. Yep, that email from his disappointed mother should define him for the rest of his life.

It's a good thing Hegseth has stated what he believes women's roles in the military should be so we can clear this up:

“I’m straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn’t made us more effective. Hasn’t made us more lethal. Has made fighting more complicated,” he said in a podcast hosted by Shawn Ryan on Nov. 7 2024.

Women have a place in the military, he said, just not in special operations, artillery, infantry and armor units.

In his book, he said women have performed well in dangerous support roles during war, but “women in the infantry — women in combat on purpose — is another story.” He adds, “women cannot physically meet the same standards as men.”

He said, “Dads push us to take risks. Moms put the training wheels on our bikes. We need moms. But not in the military, especially in combat units.”



His later comments do not reassure me of a changed man.
 
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It's a good thing Hegseth has stated what he believes women's roles in the military should be so we can clear this up:

“I’m straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn’t made us more effective. Hasn’t made us more lethal. Has made fighting more complicated,” he said in a podcast hosted by Shawn Ryan on Nov. 7 2024.

Women have a place in the military, he said, just not in special operations, artillery, infantry and armor units.

In his book, he said women have performed well in dangerous support roles during war, but “women in the infantry — women in combat on purpose — is another story.” He adds, “women cannot physically meet the same standards as men.”

He said, “Dads push us to take risks. Moms put the training wheels on our bikes. We need moms. But not in the military, especially in combat units.”



His later comments do not reassure me of a changed man.
Don’t want to open a whole can of worms here but if anybody hasn’t, you should watch the whole 2 hour episode Hegseth on Shawn Ryan. It’s enlightening from his views on the VA, agendas in the military, and a much more complete discussion of women in the military, with the take home message of not changing standards to ensure women are billeted in combat roles. Puts the one liner of not wanting women in combat into perspective a bit.
 
Don’t want to open a whole can of worms here but if anybody hasn’t, you should watch the whole 2 hour episode Hegseth on Shawn Ryan. It’s enlightening from his views on the VA, agendas in the military, and a much more complete discussion of women in the military, with the take home message of not changing standards to ensure women are billeted in combat roles. Puts the one liner of not wanting women in combat into perspective a bit.

We have had thousands of women in combat roles. They are an integral part of our military, increasingly so as male enlistment has declined relatively speaking.

I don't know how you could frame these comments but as an attack on their continued service.
 
Women have a place in the military, he said, just not in special operations, artillery, infantry and armor units.

In his book, he said women have performed well in dangerous support roles during war, but “women in the infantry — women in combat on purpose — is another story.” He adds, “women cannot physically meet the same standards as men.”
He's right. Are there any men that actually disagree with this? Real men not those chai latte-sipping ball less soy boys.
 
We have had thousands of women in combat roles. They are an integral part of our military, increasingly so as male enlistment has declined relatively speaking.

I don't know how you could frame these comments but as an attack on their continued service.
Well he pretty much makes that same argument as well. To him its about maintaining the same standard to do the job, and not making it an agenda. Give it a watch.
 
He's right. Are there any men that actually disagree with this? Real men not those chai latte-sipping ball less soy boys.
Yes. Provided they meet the standard. There are a handful of female special operators that have done that, and they have earned their place. Regarding other combat arms, there can’t be two sets of standards, you can do the job or you can’t.
 
Well he pretty much makes that same argument as well. To him its about maintaining the same standard to do the job, and not making it an agenda. Give it a watch.

Watching this for me was the cultural shock equivalent of shoving an 85 year old retired-Navy SEAL into a queer theory classroom. These guys are wild with speculation and (IMO) paranoia.

The stuff he says about wokeness is standard MAGA. I'll just point out that Hegseth believes that the covid vaccine mandate in the military was an attempt to purge "people of conscience" from the military, this is conspiratorial nonsense to me (35:30). I would argue his desire to oust Milley and Austin is an attempt to push out "people of conscience", notwithstanding their other faults (32:55). Equally depressing was Shawn Ryan's speculation that our humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is enabling Taliban members to go to Central America and then sneak in through our southern border. (37:34) (I don't think there is any evidence a member of the Taliban has attempted this. There have been afghan refugees who have.) This was followed by Hegseth speculating there is a push for illegal immigrants to enter the military as a means of gaining citizenship, he used the phrase: "pathway to citizenship conscription".

42:50- 51:00: They discuss the cases of Eddie Gallagher and the Nisour Square Massacre as examples of why we need "more lethality, less lawyers and the laws of war for winners". I didn't know enough about either of these cases. Apparently, they are very controversial and a brief read of their wikipedia articles doesn't paint nearly the same picture I'm getting from these two. Wrt Eddie Gallagher, the case against him fell apart once conflicting testimony was revealed at trial that his colleague committed the murder he was accused of. This seems like something neither party was prepared for or had advance knowledge of. I'm really not sure exactly what Hegseth/Ryan are arguing for. Do they think the military should not be prosecuting it's members after credible accusations of murder? Military trials are not perfect by any means, but their complaints about the system here should be tempered by an expectation that we DO WANT murderers prosecuted. I also want each of these defendants to have a vigorous defense. (Which they got!) IMO Hegseth believes we should be either ignoring more instances where our service members **** up or raising the standards for what is considered a **** up.

53:26-1:21:00: Discussion of women in service. Hegseth says "I’m straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles" with the further clarification that he doesn't mean air force and some other combat areas. I will point out, that he only ever emphasizes the changes that have been for the benefit of women. He did not mention the changes that have been put in place to benefit aging men and I don't think it's safe to assume he is equally bothered by those.

I'm not an expert on how military standards have changed over time. So I'm going to just question whether or not Hegseth's goals would be good for our military today. Assuming we return to a one-size-fits-all standard, how many servicemembers would that potentially impact? The closest answer I can see is from a RAND study, raising the existing ACFT passing score to 450 (from 360) would cost us 1 in 20 male servicemembers, 1 in 10 women and 1 in 4 national guard soldiers. (1) Presumably, changing the ACFT to be the same across gender and age would lose a similar if not larger number of women/NG in our volunteer service.

Maybe Hegseth wants to tailor something specifically for combat roles he believes require the higher standard. But the Army tried that "...officials soon discovered the complications inherent in that approach. Soldiers in combat-arms roles were often assigned to non-combat units, and vice versa, creating logistical and fairness challenges that ultimately led the Army to favor a more uniform standard." (1) What is his solution here that doesn't require cutting a substantial number of people from the Armed Forces OR is that exactly what he wants to do? How would that impact the "lethality" he wants to maintain?

Hegseth and Ryan go on to talk about trans people in the military. They see wokeness in general and the military allowing trans servicemembers in particular as reasons why enlistment numbers are down (1:11:40).

H: "In search of a non-traditional constituency, they offended their core constituency. There aren't enough lesbians in San Francisco to man the 82nd airborne. In trying to cater to that, they lost the boys from Tennessee, Kentucky and Oklahoma. The traditional dudes who did it because they loved their country or they wanted to try tough things... whatever it is. If I wanted to do woke crap I could do it at the local community college."

Is there any evidence for this belief? Are boys in Tennessee really refusing to join the US Army because of woke? Men are facing problems in multiple areas of American life. The idea that including women and the LGBTQ community as the cause for lower male enlistment is a deep stretch that is not rooted in polling on the subject (2). JAMRS conducts polls twice a year and consistently the top reasons cited for not joining the military are: Possibility of physical injury/death, Possibility of PTSD, Leaving family and friends, and Other career interests." I don't buy it that wokeness (or trans people) is causing declining male enlistment.

Some of this isn't relevant to our discussion on his views of women, but these were my general impressions after watching an hour and a half.

1. The Army's Fitness Standards May Shift in 2025. But How Much Tougher Will They Be?

2. Reports
 
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Trump is so low T that they are holding his inauguration indoors because it might be chilly that day. I tell you, Americans are becoming real sissies when it comes weather. The sissification of America continues…
 
H: "In search of a non-traditional constituency, they offended their core constituency. There aren't enough lesbians in San Francisco to man the 82nd airborne. In trying to cater to that, they lost the boys from Tennessee, Kentucky and Oklahoma. The traditional dudes who did it because they loved their country or they wanted to try tough things... whatever it is. If I wanted to do woke crap I could do it at the local community college."

Is there any evidence for this belief?

Tell us in 939 words that you've not spent much time in rural Tennessee, Kentucky, or Oklahoma without telling us you haven't spent much time in rural Tennessee, Kentucky, or Oklahoma...
 
Tell us in 939 words that you've not spent much time in rural Tennessee, Kentucky, or Oklahoma without telling us you haven't spent much time in rural Tennessee, Kentucky, or Oklahoma...

Sigh... Please share the evidence for your belief that wokeness in the military is a driving factor for decreased male enlistment.
 
Watching this for me was the cultural shock equivalent of shoving an 85 year old retired-Navy SEAL into a queer theory classroom. These guys are wild with speculation and (IMO) paranoia.

The stuff he says about wokeness is standard MAGA. I'll just point out that Hegseth believes that the covid vaccine mandate in the military was an attempt to purge "people of conscience" from the military, this is conspiratorial nonsense to me (35:30). I would argue his desire to oust Milley and Austin is an attempt to push out "people of conscience", notwithstanding their other faults (32:55). Equally depressing was Shawn Ryan's speculation that our humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is enabling Taliban members to go to Central America and then sneak in through our southern border. (37:34) (I don't think there is any evidence a member of the Taliban has attempted this. There have been afghan refugees who have.) This was followed by Hegseth speculating there is a push for illegal immigrants to enter the military as a means of gaining citizenship, he used the phrase: "pathway to citizenship conscription".

42:50- 51:00: They discuss the cases of Eddie Gallagher and the Nisour Square Massacre as examples of why we need "more lethality, less lawyers and the laws of war for winners". I didn't know enough about either of these cases. Apparently, they are very controversial and a brief read of their wikipedia articles doesn't paint nearly the same picture I'm getting from these two. Wrt Eddie Gallagher, the case against him fell apart once conflicting testimony was revealed at trial that his colleague committed the murder he was accused of. This seems like something neither party was prepared for or had advance knowledge of. I'm really not sure exactly what Hegseth/Ryan are arguing for. Do they think the military should not be prosecuting it's members after credible accusations of murder? Military trials are not perfect by any means, but their complaints about the system here should be tempered by an expectation that we DO WANT murderers prosecuted. I also want each of these defendants to have a vigorous defense. (Which they got!) IMO Hegseth believes we should be either ignoring more instances where our service members **** up or raising the standards for what is considered a **** up.

53:26-1:21:00: Discussion of women in service. Hegseth says "I’m straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles" with the further clarification that he doesn't mean air force and some other combat areas. I will point out, that he only ever emphasizes the changes that have been for the benefit of women. He did not mention the changes that have been put in place to benefit aging men and I don't think it's safe to assume he is equally bothered by those.

I'm not an expert on how military standards have changed over time. So I'm going to just question whether or not Hegseth's goals would be good for our military today. Assuming we return to a one-size-fits-all standard, how many servicemembers would that potentially impact? The closest answer I can see is from a RAND study, raising the existing ACFT passing score to 450 (from 360) would cost us 1 in 20 male servicemembers, 1 in 10 women and 1 in 4 national guard soldiers. (1) Presumably, changing the ACFT to be the same across gender and age would lose a similar if not larger number of women/NG in our volunteer service.

Maybe Hegseth wants to tailor something specifically for combat roles he believes require the higher standard. But the Army tried that "...officials soon discovered the complications inherent in that approach. Soldiers in combat-arms roles were often assigned to non-combat units, and vice versa, creating logistical and fairness challenges that ultimately led the Army to favor a more uniform standard." (1) What is his solution here that doesn't require cutting a substantial number of people from the Armed Forces OR is that exactly what he wants to do? How would that impact the "lethality" he wants to maintain?

Hegseth and Ryan go on to talk about trans people in the military. They see wokeness in general and the military allowing trans servicemembers in particular as reasons why enlistment numbers are down (1:11:40).

H: "In search of a non-traditional constituency, they offended their core constituency. There aren't enough lesbians in San Francisco to man the 82nd airborne. In trying to cater to that, they lost the boys from Tennessee, Kentucky and Oklahoma. The traditional dudes who did it because they loved their country or they wanted to try tough things... whatever it is. If I wanted to do woke crap I could do it at the local community college."

Is there any evidence for this belief? Are boys in Tennessee really refusing to join the US Army because of woke? Men are facing problems in multiple areas of American life. The idea that including women and the LGBTQ community as the cause for lower male enlistment is a deep stretch that is not rooted in polling on the subject (2). JAMRS conducts polls twice a year and consistently the top reasons cited for not joining the military are: Possibility of physical injury/death, Possibility of PTSD, Leaving family and friends, and Other career interests." I don't buy it that wokeness (or trans people) is causing declining male enlistment.

Some of this isn't relevant to our discussion on his views of women, but these were my general impressions after watching an hour and a half.

1. The Army's Fitness Standards May Shift in 2025. But How Much Tougher Will They Be?

2. Reports
When I served my concern over who served with me was non existent. It did not effect my desire to serve.in any way. What the hell is he talking about?
If this is what stops you from serving you really don't want to serve.
 
It's a good thing Hegseth has stated what he believes women's roles in the military should be so we can clear this up:

“I’m straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn’t made us more effective. Hasn’t made us more lethal. Has made fighting more complicated,” he said in a podcast hosted by Shawn Ryan on Nov. 7 2024.

Women have a place in the military, he said, just not in special operations, artillery, infantry and armor units.

In his book, he said women have performed well in dangerous support roles during war, but “women in the infantry — women in combat on purpose — is another story.” He adds, “women cannot physically meet the same standards as men.”

He said, “Dads push us to take risks. Moms put the training wheels on our bikes. We need moms. But not in the military, especially in combat units.”



His later comments do not reassure me of a changed man.
I've got some anecdotal pseudo data to share, and an opinion.

The definition of a "combat role" is blurry and is getting fuzzier and fuzzier over time.

Infantry?
Artillery?
Pilots?
Drone pilots?

There are women serving in all of those roles.

I was the medical officer for a Marine infantry battalion from 2003 - 2006. Deployed twice with them, to Iraq and Afghanistan. In those days Marine infantry were Victor units - 100% male. (Two perks for me were that pelvic exams and pregnancy were never on the sick call menu. 🙂) We were deployed to areas that also had Army and ANG units, which were mixed gender.

Equally effective? No.

Lots of confounders. The national guard units couldnt be expected to be on the same level as a an active Marine battalion. Army reserve - similar issues.

Maybe the right question was, were the mixed gender units effective enough? And the answer there was probably yes.

At least, for the tasks they were assigned, in a counterinsurgency conflict. I'll just say they didn't take part when our Marines went door to door clearing Al Qaim. I'm not going to malign their service but I don't think those units would've done well with that task, or in some future near peer or high intensity conflict. Or one less mechanized, where all gear must be carried.


I don't disagree with Hegseth - the notion that women do the infantry job as well as men just isn't true. The bell curve of physical attributes for men and women overlap to some degree. I saw chubby poorly conditioned male Marines and fit female Marines. But until we have robot exoskeleton power armor and infantry are "piloting" instead of "walking" even the fittest women are significantly disadvantaged and shouldn't be in those roles.

Hudson: Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
Vasquez: No, have you?
Great scene, but it's a movie.

I'll also add that as the medical officer I dealt with everything health related. Psychiatric issues do exist in the military. A small number of people with cluster B personality disorders create massively outsized disruptions to a unit.

My first deployment, our CO brought along a number of people we recommended be left behind for mental health reasons. He declined for reasons I disagreed with and we had significant disruptive issues with some of those people. My second deployment, I rec'd to him that 19 people (out of about 1000) be left behind for mental health reasons. Bitten once, this time he agreed and we had very few problems. Until one was sent to us as a combat replacement, and promptly got in a fight with another Marine, and then later popped off a few rounds at one of our convoys.

I only mention this to point out that the rate of serious, job-impacting mental illness in that unit was 1-2% and even that low rate was extremely disruptive.

Enlisted military service is not a perfect demographic slice of US. The lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder are heavily overrepresented, and they bring their previous lives with them to the job. There's more abuse and neglect in their past. I'm just going to express my opinion and limited experience and say that I think women who join and choose infantry are an extra high risk group. They are a tiny minority and that also creates its own set of issues.

Starship Troopers and its mixed gender infantry and mixed gender showers make an entertaining movie.

Great TED Talk from the depths of the worst years of the Iraq war:



As much as I make fun of the guys who post YouTube videos in these discussion, and you know who you are 🙂, this one is worth watching.

"I like them young, male, unmarried, and slightly pissed off."

Jessica Lynch didn't join to shoot back.
 
Sigh... Please share the evidence for your belief that wokeness in the military is a driving factor for decreased male enlistment.
My point is, I don't think you have any insight into what someone outside your bubble thinks and you are close minded to any opinion that does not match your belief. I would venture to guess you have not spent any time around anyone from any of those states, especially the rural areas. I am in an unrelated portion of the country in an urban area and I still hear the jokes consistently with the guys in a skirt and the other memes that have been generated surrounding the idiocy that prevails in the leadership of the military as they try to appeal to the woke agenda. It's like Bud Light trying to appeal to the trans population. It backfired in a huge way and their shareholders paid the price for it. There are many who will never drink another of their products again.
I have no idea if it is a top reason for decreased male enlistment or not, but you have to have your head in the sand if you don't know that it is discussed a lot and is a point of contention for those who are enlisted and have to put up with the BS.
There is a viral video of a female African American firefighter who states that she thinks that people want to be rescued by people who look like them. On the topic of whether or not she could physically carry someone's husband out of a burning building, her response was, if it is to the point that I have to carry him out, he's gotten himself somewhere that he didn't need to be (paraphrased). That comment made the rounds widely and was not well received. I didn't watch Hegseth's video, but it seems to me that he wishes for people who sign up for a difficult job such as that actually be able to physically perform the job so that the lives of others are not endangered. I don't think that is such a radical expectation.
 
When I served my concern over who served with me was non existent. It did not effect my desire to serve.in any way. What the hell is he talking about?
If this is what stops you from serving you really don't want to serve.

We must have served in different militaries. My units were all male. Dude fell out of a company run, we RFS'd his ass to Korea. Couldn't meet the unit PT standard, pack your bags. Like it or not, there are challenges in some military occupational specialties that make it difficult for women (and men). Is lowering the standard to make sure they get a shot ok? Do we improve our warfighting capability of some units by doing that? Do you want to lower standards for health care professionals, do you think patients deserve that?
 
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I've got some anecdotal pseudo data to share, and an opinion.

The definition of a "combat role" is blurry and is getting fuzzier and fuzzier over time.

Infantry?
Artillery?
Pilots?
Drone pilots?

There are women serving in all of those roles.

I was the medical officer for a Marine infantry battalion from 2003 - 2006. Deployed twice with them, to Iraq and Afghanistan. In those days Marine infantry were Victor units - 100% male. (Two perks for me were that pelvic exams and pregnancy were never on the sick call menu. 🙂) We were deployed to areas that also had Army and ANG units, which were mixed gender.

Equally effective? No.

Lots of confounders. The national guard units couldnt be expected to be on the same level as a an active Marine battalion. Army reserve - similar issues.

Maybe the right question was, were the mixed gender units effective enough? And the answer there was probably yes.

At least, for the tasks they were assigned, in a counterinsurgency conflict. I'll just say they didn't take part when our Marines went door to door clearing Al Qaim. I'm not going to malign their service but I don't think those units would've done well with that task, or in some future near peer or high intensity conflict. Or one less mechanized, where all gear must be carried.


I don't disagree with Hegseth - the notion that women do the infantry job as well as men just isn't true. The bell curve of physical attributes for men and women overlap to some degree. I saw chubby poorly conditioned male Marines and fit female Marines. But until we have robot exoskeleton power armor and infantry are "piloting" instead of "walking" even the fittest women are significantly disadvantaged and shouldn't be in those roles.

Hudson: Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
Vasquez: No, have you?
Great scene, but it's a movie.

I'll also add that as the medical officer I dealt with everything health related. Psychiatric issues do exist in the military. A small number of people with cluster B personality disorders create massively outsized disruptions to a unit.

My first deployment, our CO brought along a number of people we recommended be left behind for mental health reasons. He declined for reasons I disagreed with and we had significant disruptive issues with some of those people. My second deployment, I rec'd to him that 19 people (out of about 1000) be left behind for mental health reasons. Bitten once, this time he agreed and we had very few problems. Until one was sent to us as a combat replacement, and promptly got in a fight with another Marine, and then later popped off a few rounds at one of our convoys.

I only mention this to point out that the rate of serious, job-impacting mental illness in that unit was 1-2% and even that low rate was extremely disruptive.

Enlisted military service is not a perfect demographic slice of US. The lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder are heavily overrepresented, and they bring their previous lives with them to the job. There's more abuse and neglect in their past. I'm just going to express my opinion and limited experience and say that I think women who join and choose infantry are an extra high risk group. They are a tiny minority and that also creates its own set of issues.

Starship Troopers and its mixed gender infantry and mixed gender showers make an entertaining movie.

Great TED Talk from the depths of the worst years of the Iraq war:



As much as I make fun of the guys who post YouTube videos in these discussion, and you know who you are 🙂, this one is worth watching.

"I like them young, male, unmarried, and slightly pissed off."

Jessica Lynch didn't join to shoot back.


I don't really question anything you've said here and am (surprisingly) less concerned about what Hegseth said wrt women after watching him. Do I think it's something that a Secretary of Defense should say about ~15% of his servicemembers? No. But in context it's not as bad as the clipped lines suggest, as DocMccoy attested to.

I do still question his policy prescriptions.
 
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My point is, I don't think you have any insight into what someone outside your bubble thinks and you are close minded to any opinion that does not match your belief. I would venture to guess you have not spent any time around anyone from any of those states, especially the rural areas. I am in an unrelated portion of the country in an urban area and I still hear the jokes consistently with the guys in a skirt and the other memes that have been generated surrounding the idiocy that prevails in the leadership of the military as they try to appeal to the woke agenda. It's like Bud Light trying to appeal to the trans population. It backfired in a huge way and their shareholders paid the price for it. There are many who will never drink another of their products again.
I have no idea if it is a top reason for decreased male enlistment or not, but you have to have your head in the sand if you don't know that it is discussed a lot and is a point of contention for those who are enlisted and have to put up with the BS.
There is a viral video of a female African American firefighter who states that she thinks that people want to be rescued by people who look like them. On the topic of whether or not she could physically carry someone's husband out of a burning building, her response was, if it is to the point that I have to carry him out, he's gotten himself somewhere that he didn't need to be (paraphrased). That comment made the rounds widely and was not well received. I didn't watch Hegseth's video, but it seems to me that he wishes for people who sign up for a difficult job such as that actually be able to physically perform the job so that the lives of others are not endangered. I don't think that is such a radical expectation.

I'm absolutely not in any military bubbles as my joke at the top of my long post suggested.

My point was, I can present some evidence (limited as surveys are) that describe why young men don't want to serve. As much as conservatives bemoan wokeness in the military, it doesn't seem to be a serious cause for lower enlistment. Maybe there are studies I've missed or maybe more women and LGBTQ people in the military is resulting in higher rates of retirement among men? I haven't looked into it, but that would be interesting.
 
Sure it did, we knew it was happening we could have intervened and we did nothing. We just let it happen. If the civil war had not been won by the tutsi the killing would have lasted more then 100 days..
Three rules for getting involved in someone else's civil war :

1. Don't.
2. If you do, pick a side.
3. Win.

If you break rule #1 you better not break 2 or 3. We're not so good at that.

At least we've followed rule #1 in Africa. (Mostly. Libya's civil war has been mostly untouched by us.)
 
I don't really question anything you've said here and am (surprisingly) less concerned about what Hegseth said wrt women after watching him. Do I think it's something that a Secretary of Defense should say about ~15% of his servicemembers? No. But in context it's not as bad as the clipped lines suggest, as DocMccoy attested to.

I do still question his policy prescriptions.
Totally fair, even I didn't walk away 100% happy with everything he said, and there is A LOT of controversy in his comments. Let's all be honest, are there better pics, absolutely. Personally, I don't see anything in him that is 100% disqualifying and as with all Trump pics, sadly I guess I'll take it.
 
I've got some anecdotal pseudo data to share, and an opinion.

The definition of a "combat role" is blurry and is getting fuzzier and fuzzier over time.

Infantry?
Artillery?
Pilots?
Drone pilots?

There are women serving in all of those roles.

I was the medical officer for a Marine infantry battalion from 2003 - 2006. Deployed twice with them, to Iraq and Afghanistan. In those days Marine infantry were Victor units - 100% male. (Two perks for me were that pelvic exams and pregnancy were never on the sick call menu. 🙂) We were deployed to areas that also had Army and ANG units, which were mixed gender.

Equally effective? No.

Lots of confounders. The national guard units couldnt be expected to be on the same level as a an active Marine battalion. Army reserve - similar issues.

Maybe the right question was, were the mixed gender units effective enough? And the answer there was probably yes.

At least, for the tasks they were assigned, in a counterinsurgency conflict. I'll just say they didn't take part when our Marines went door to door clearing Al Qaim. I'm not going to malign their service but I don't think those units would've done well with that task, or in some future near peer or high intensity conflict. Or one less mechanized, where all gear must be carried.


I don't disagree with Hegseth - the notion that women do the infantry job as well as men just isn't true. The bell curve of physical attributes for men and women overlap to some degree. I saw chubby poorly conditioned male Marines and fit female Marines. But until we have robot exoskeleton power armor and infantry are "piloting" instead of "walking" even the fittest women are significantly disadvantaged and shouldn't be in those roles.

Hudson: Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
Vasquez: No, have you?
Great scene, but it's a movie.

I'll also add that as the medical officer I dealt with everything health related. Psychiatric issues do exist in the military. A small number of people with cluster B personality disorders create massively outsized disruptions to a unit.

My first deployment, our CO brought along a number of people we recommended be left behind for mental health reasons. He declined for reasons I disagreed with and we had significant disruptive issues with some of those people. My second deployment, I rec'd to him that 19 people (out of about 1000) be left behind for mental health reasons. Bitten once, this time he agreed and we had very few problems. Until one was sent to us as a combat replacement, and promptly got in a fight with another Marine, and then later popped off a few rounds at one of our convoys.

I only mention this to point out that the rate of serious, job-impacting mental illness in that unit was 1-2% and even that low rate was extremely disruptive.

Enlisted military service is not a perfect demographic slice of US. The lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder are heavily overrepresented, and they bring their previous lives with them to the job. There's more abuse and neglect in their past. I'm just going to express my opinion and limited experience and say that I think women who join and choose infantry are an extra high risk group. They are a tiny minority and that also creates its own set of issues.

Starship Troopers and its mixed gender infantry and mixed gender showers make an entertaining movie.

Great TED Talk from the depths of the worst years of the Iraq war:



As much as I make fun of the guys who post YouTube videos in these discussion, and you know who you are 🙂, this one is worth watching.

"I like them young, male, unmarried, and slightly pissed off."

Jessica Lynch didn't join to shoot back.

Amazing the guy in the video used the Taiwan straight conflict of 2025 as a hypothetical example 20 years before it could actually materialize
 
I'm absolutely not in any military bubbles as my joke at the top of my long post suggested.
I never served but I am close with many who did. I guess my takeaway from this is that you seem very empowered to speak with authority on any topic, even ones you admit you know nothing about. Yet you seem to imply a knowledge on the topic that is not present. Having not served, I also cannot speak intelligently about the military other than to tell you that, based upon the many soldiers I have encountered, I don't think you have insight into what military service entails, the physically demanding aspects of it, or how a typical soldier views their job or life. I think I am going to have to go with what pgg, DocMcCoy, Pete Hegseth, or others who have served have to say on the subject.
 
I never served but I am close with many who did. I guess my takeaway from this is that you seem very empowered to speak with authority on any topic, even ones you admit you know nothing about. Yet you seem to imply a knowledge on the topic that is not present. Having not served, I also cannot speak intelligently about the military other than to tell you that, based upon the many soldiers I have encountered, I don't think you have insight into what military service entails, the physically demanding aspects of it, or how a typical soldier views their job or life. I think I am going to have to go with what pgg, DocMcCoy, Pete Hegseth, or others who have served have to say on the subject.

Others can correct me. Those were my impressions watching Hegseth/Ryan talk.

I didn't comment on what military service entails, the physically demanding aspects of it, or how a typical soldier views their job or life.

I think Hegseth is wrong when he blames wokeness for decreased enlistment (among other things). He's pursuing an agenda by saying that, the same thing he accuses those who permit women enlisting of doing.

Edit: *enlisting in combat roles
 
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How do people feel about the USA TikTok ban? I get it national security. But it’s not like the us govt isn’t spying on us anyways. Facebook is notorious as well.

Somehow I think both facebook and google (with YouTube) are involved in this matter. Both USA companies.

It’s like United healthcare in the ears of the Federal Trade commission lady about usap Colorado with TikTok posing a Great completion to the revenue of Facebook and absolutely destroying YouTube content these days

The attention span of Americans get less and less. Vine didn’t take off like Tik tok.

So I think national security is a secondary excuse to the real excuse. Money.


“A new disclosure reveals Instagram owner Meta spent more than ever on lobbing Congress and the White House as legislation to potentially ban its competitor, TikTok, was drawn up and passed”

 
Three rules for getting involved in someone else's civil war :

1. Don't.
2. If you do, pick a side.
3. Win.

If you break rule #1 you better not break 2 or 3. We're not so good at that.

At least we've followed rule #1 in Africa. (Mostly. Libya's civil war has been mostly untouched by us.)
I agree other then the moral high ground there was nothing in for us. We should not send our people into harms way to make us feel good.
We could have intervened by supporting one side vigorously with arms etc. In this way we could safely demonstrate our opposition to the genocide.
 
Words have meaning.

When you misuse a term like "genocide" for propaganda purposes it dilutes the word and harms actual victims of that crime.
Lol
How do people feel about the USA TikTok ban? I get it national security. But it’s not like the us govt isn’t spying on us anyways. Facebook is notorious as well.

Somehow I think both facebook and google (with YouTube) are involved in this matter. Both USA companies.

It’s like United healthcare in the ears of the Federal Trade commission lady about usap Colorado with TikTok posing a Great completion to the revenue of Facebook and absolutely destroying YouTube content these days

The attention span of Americans get less and less. Vine didn’t take off like Tik tok.

So I think national security is a secondary excuse to the real excuse. Money.


“A new disclosure reveals Instagram owner Meta spent more than ever on lobbing Congress and the White House as legislation to potentially ban its competitor, TikTok, was drawn up and passed”

Purely a move to control the narrative. Vast majority of those under 35 are getting news from tik tok. Government can't control everything that's on there. Anti israel things, the bin laden letter, etc.
 
the fittest women are significantly disadvantaged and shouldn't be in those roles.
This is fact. Those arguing otherwise is just being delusional and argumentative. Set a standard, if u pass no matter man/woman then u can join. But dont lower it to get a woman in. This is just what most Reps argue but get twisted that we hate women.
 
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