Biden Out of Race

[Southpaw]

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💯. The execution of large swaths of the agenda have been pretty bad (doge, tariff roll out) even though the themes are consistent with conservative goals. But there is a predictable counter narrative manufactured with every action the administration takes. They are getting hit from all sides even where it doesn't make sense to hit them.

The minute after we bombed Iran, we started hearing about war without congressional authorization and impeachment. That obviously fell flat as soon as the left remembered recent history. So they pivoted to a failed mission narrative based on a leaked preliminary battle damage assessment that didn’t gel with Trumps use of the word “obliterated”. Just give a nod and move on, or don’t cover it at all. Don’t manufacture a bunch of BS and sell it as news because you hate everything Trump stands for.

It leads to one becoming totally desensitized to any Trump coverage even when there are A LOT of valid criticisms.

Fair assessment. Liberals shouldn’t hope for a failed American mission just bc it was led by Trump or that total doofus Hegseth.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

let me know when the UN gets an army or the power to do anything other than put words on paper. Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967. Has the UN or anyone actually done anything? You think Netanyahu cares what the UN says? Doesn’t seem to.

No, I don’t think the protests have made any difference whatsoever. Certainly people should protest and put forth a voice, and Trump clearly doesn’t want a pro Palestinian voice on American streets, but I can’t see that it’s done anything for Gazans or to stop Netanyahu from dropping bombs on a building full of women and kids bc his intel said there had been a Hamas terrorist there sometime recently.

Again I see no difference on Dem/Repub policy or goals with regard to Israel. They all take the AIPAC money. It was felt Harris underperformed in MI bc she didn’t take a strong enough pro-Palestinian stance.

The UN does have armies they can get together actually, they just haven’t.

Give the people what they want, right? Seems like the world agrees with the current situation. I certainly do.

 

[Southpaw]

Give the people what they want, right? Seems like the world agrees with the current situation. I certainly do.

If I read this correctly you agree with > 50,000 Gazan civilians dead (per UN 15,613 children and 8,304 women). The killing of aid workers. >90% of the Gazan population displaced/homeless. This is ‘proportional’ in your belief? What’s the end goal?

 

[PainInTheAnes]

If I read this correctly you agree with > 50,000 Gazan civilians dead (per UN 15,613 children and 8,304 women). The killing of aid workers. >90% of the Gazan population displaced/homeless. This is ‘proportional’ in your belief? What’s the end goal?

As does the rest of the entire world, according to you, so don’t try to make me out to be some sort of villain. And yeah I think it’s proportional historically. It’s positively humane in comparison to almost any other world conflict in history.

Subjugation of Gaza into a non threatening entity is the goal that I can see. Idk the best way to do that but that is probably what they’re going for. It’s been done with Japan, Germany, in the past with similarly zealous populations.

 

[Southpaw]

As does the rest of the entire world, according to you, so don’t try to make me out to be some sort of villain. And yeah I think it’s proportional historically. It’s positively humane in comparison to almost any other world conflict in history.

Subjugation of Gaza into a non threatening entity is the goal that I can see. Idk the best way to do that but that is probably what they’re going for. It’s been done with Japan, Germany, in the past with similarly zealous populations.

As you’re attempting to misconstrue my posts for reasons I don’t really understand, my stance is clear. Protests, while helpful for the protestors, have done nothing to make Israel stop or the US put any pressure on Israel to stop. Quite the opposite - the US under Trump doesn’t want student protestors who support Palestinians in the country. As long as the US supports the Israeli govt the UN will do nothing.
On a human level, the supporting of civilian deaths should never be supported. I don’t care about the ethnicity of the human.

 

[UscGhost]

Fair assessment. Liberals shouldn’t hope for a failed American mission just bc it was led by Trump or that total doofus Hegseth.

Liberals didn't hope it would fail. We just expected it.

How much do you want to bet that the generals told Trump that it wouldnt work...but he did it anyways because he wanted to show off. He didn't expect the classified report of the failure to leak so soon

Conservatives are so afraid of criticizing their leader...that they just continue to let him fail predictably

 

[PainInTheAnes]

As you’re attempting to misconstrue my posts for reasons I don’t really understand, my stance is clear. Protests, while helpful for the protestors, have done nothing to make Israel stop or the US put any pressure on Israel to stop. Quite the opposite - the US under Trump doesn’t want student protestors who support Palestinians in the country. As long as the US supports the Israeli govt the UN will do nothing.
On a human level, the supporting of civilian deaths should never be supported. I don’t care about the ethnicity of the human.

Please. I didn’t misconstrue anything with a question like “so you agree with civilian death?”

Take that moralizing BS to a Beatles concert and sing along to “Imagine”. The world is complicated and sometimes bad things happen.

 

[Southpaw]

Please. I didn’t misconstrue anything with a question like “so you agree with civilian death?”

Take that moralizing BS to a Beatles concert and sing along to “Imagine”. The world is complicated and sometimes bad things happen.

I hate the Beatles. And as typical for this forum you’re putting words into my posts that aren’t there. And you’re the one comparing the current killing of civilians in Gaza to the holocaust or Japanese in concentration camps, as if that should somehow make it okay.

I don’t agree with the killing of civilians. Turn the other way all you want, that doesn’t make it right. The complexities of the world should never make it acceptable to kill humans. That you’re okay with it underlines the depravity of humans, not some sort of success.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Liberals didn't hope it would fail. We just expected it.

How much do you want to bet that the generals told Trump that it wouldnt work...but he did it anyways because he wanted to show off. He didn't expect the classified report of the FAILURE to leak so soon

Conservatives are so afraid of criticizing their leader...that they just continue to let him fail predictably

Expecting it to fail is one thing. Think-tanking a counter narrative and pushing any shred of evidence or story no matter how tenuous or credible as long as it gains traction is something else.

The generals are the ones that came up with the plan. This certainly wasn’t Trumps brain child.

Even here, you are framing it as a “failure”. How, objectively, did the mission fail?

It did damage and delay uranium enrichment operations in Iran even if only on the scale of months, as first suggested in a leaked low confidence preliminary report, which BTW runs counter to more recent assessments. A mission arguably no other nation could attempt. Not a single US casualty. A tenuous ceasefire. Limited Iranian response. Limited economic fallout.

Is it because Trump used the term “obliterated”???

The Fox News faithful might be afraid to criticize, but it’s an over-generalization to say all conservatives won’t. Just not buying this one.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

I hate the Beatles. And as typical for this forum you’re putting words into my posts that aren’t there. And you’re the one comparing the current killing of civilians in Gaza to the holocaust or Japanese in concentration camps, as if that should somehow make it okay.

I don’t agree with the killing of civilians. Turn the other way all you want, that doesn’t make it right. The complexities of the world should never make it acceptable to kill humans. That you’re okay with it underlines the depravity of humans, not some sort of success.

Wtf are you talking about? I am comparing the population of Gaza to the imperial Japanese and Nazi Germany for their radicalism. Good lord

“If I read this correctly you agree with > 50,000 Gazan civilians dead”

Your exact statement. I didn’t put any words in your mouth.

I have to believe you’re just a troll now.

 

[Southpaw]

I have to believe you’re just a troll now.

I feel the same of you. Yep, 20+ years of trolling. I reread your posts and they’re no more clear.

 

[Southpaw]

I am comparing the population of Gaza to the imperial Japanese and Nazi Germany for their radicalism. Good lord

What an insane take

 

[UscGhost]

Expecting it to fail is one thing. Think-tanking a counter narrative and pushing any shred of evidence or story no matter how tenuous or credible as long as it gains traction is something else.

The generals are the ones that came up with the plan. This certainly wasn’t Trumps brain child.

Even here, you are framing it as a “failure”. How, objectively, did the mission fail?

It did damage and delay uranium enrichment operations in Iran even if only on the scale of months, as first suggested in a leaked low confidence preliminary report, which BTW runs counter to more recent assessments. A mission arguably no other nation could attempt. Not a single US casualty. A tenuous ceasefire. Limited Iranian response. Limited economic fallout.

Is it because Trump used the term “obliterated”???

The Fox News faithful might be afraid to criticize, but it’s an over-generalization to say all conservatives won’t. Just not buying this one.

Lol. What recent assessments? Hegseth and the cia public statements? Please. You think Trump would allow them to say anything else. I believe a leaked report to congress over a public statement anyday.

Delay months is a success??? It cost a few hundred million to get their reactor floors a bit dusty. Success?

You yourself are afraid to criticize. By any objective means..it was a failure.

You think the mission goals were limited economic fallout and limited Iran response? Dont confuse mission success with "well at least we didnt make things worse"

 

[zizzer]

Fair assessment. Liberals shouldn’t hope for a failed American mission just bc it was led by Trump or that total doofus Hegseth.

Agreed. I think the strange determination to find ways to criticize the mission stems from a reluctance to praise a single thing Trump does and being sour over supporting Israel. As I said before, Trump's handling of Iran is about the only praiseworthy thing he's done.

Israel has its problems and deserves criticism for a few things, but many aren't able to take a balanced view. I hate Trump, and I respect Obama, but the JCPOA was not a good long-term strategy for dealing with Iran. The removal of sanctions allowed the IRGC to heavily fund proxies in Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis while building ICBMs and just having to wait a few years to start making nuclear weapons again, if you trusted them in the first place, even. They aren't going to change their minds about wanting to destroy Israel, the US, or whoever. They're motivated by religious extremism, so a tougher stance was needed. Israel is doing amazing work dismantling their proxies and the IRGC itself with some missions that would seem ridiculous even in a TV show like Homeland.

 

[passiveobserver1979]

Agreed. I think the strange determination to find ways to criticize the mission stems from a reluctance to praise a single thing Trump does and being sour over supporting Israel. As I said before, Trump's handling of Iran is about the only praiseworthy thing he's done.

Israel has its problems and deserves criticism for a few things, but many aren't able to take a balanced view. I hate Trump, and I respect Obama, but the JCPOA was not a good long-term strategy for dealing with Iran. The removal of sanctions allowed the IRGC to heavily fund proxies in Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis while building ICBMs and just having to wait a few years to start making nuclear weapons again, if you trusted them in the first place, even. They aren't going to change their minds about wanting to destroy Israel, the US, or whoever. They're motivated by religious extremism, so a tougher stance was needed. Israel is doing amazing work dismantling their proxies and the IRGC itself with some missions that would seem ridiculous even in a TV show like Homeland.

Israel is doing a great job getting themselves extinct within the next decade. They will lose all world support and all of them will migrate out of Israel. Many are migrating already.
Many young American Jews are horrified with Israel's conduct and call them "war criminals". One of our children's teacher is Jewish and told me yesterday that the current government of Israel are war criminals.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I don’t agree with the killing of civilians

Definitely a missed opportunity on our part. We were positioned to parlay our Iran involvement with some Gaza concessions. It could have been as simple as letting a little more aid through or even getting Netanyahu to tone down the shooting of starving people waiting in food lines.

 

[buddababa]

If I read this correctly you agree with > 50,000 Gazan civilians dead (per UN 15,613 children and 8,304 women). The killing of aid workers. >90% of the Gazan population displaced/homeless. This is ‘proportional’ in your belief? What’s the end goal?

according to israel internal numbers and harvard, almost 400,000 dead

 

[PainInTheAnes]

What an insane take

🙄

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/in-gaza-and-israel-danger-of-incitement-to-violence-lurks-idUSKCN0SU2BM/

“Outside "Hitler 2", whose owner declined to be interviewed, young Palestinians this week said they liked the shop and were eager to carry out attacks.”

-Reuters

Anyway…

 

[zizzer]

Israel has neighbors who have been trying to annihilate them since the state was created and have only survived through military might. Some of these neighbors are not amenable to negotiation because they're motivated by religious extremism. They can't afford to sit around and let countries hostile to them, like Iran, continue to get stronger because their geography makes them extremely vulnerable.

I'm glad you realize how heterogeneous Israel's population is. Many Jews have differing views on how to approach the conflicts and many would disagree with the ones you reference. The "war criminals" accusations are not entirely unfounded, but are also fraught with unreliable reports and accusations. Israel made more efforts to minimize Gaza civilian casualties than many give them credit for in a challenging situation with regard to Hamas. That said, Israel need to do better with aid. Selectively allow Gazans into Israel if necessary.

 

[UscGhost]

Agreed. I think the strange determination to find ways to criticize the mission stems from a reluctance to praise a single thing Trump does and being sour over supporting Israel. As I said before, Trump's handling of Iran is about the only praiseworthy thing he's done.

Israel has its problems and deserves criticism for a few things, but many aren't able to take a balanced view. I hate Trump, and I respect Obama, but the JCPOA was not a good long-term strategy for dealing with Iran. The removal of sanctions allowed the IRGC to heavily fund proxies in Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis while building ICBMs and just having to wait a few years to start making nuclear weapons again, if you trusted them in the first place, even. They aren't going to change their minds about wanting to destroy Israel, the US, or whoever. They're motivated by religious extremism, so a tougher stance was needed. Israel is doing amazing work dismantling their proxies and the IRGC itself with some missions that would seem ridiculous even in a TV show like Homeland.

Find ways to criticize the mission? You act like people are nitpicking about how much fuel we used or whether we could have used a few less bombs..

The entire goal of the mission was to destroy the Iranian nuclear infrastructure..or at least delay it a few years. Delaying it a few months is entirely inconsequential

 

[zizzer]

Find ways to criticize the mission? You act like people are nitpicking about how much fuel we used or whether we could have used a few less bombs..

The entire goal of the mission was to destroy the Iranian nuclear infrastructure..or at least delay it a few years. Delaying it a few months is entirely inconsequential

Delaying it by only a few months would be underwhelming for sure, but as pointed out already here, there were no US deaths, minimal economic consequences, no escalation of regional conflict (the opposite in fact), and minimal to no Iranian civilian deaths outside of the nuclear facilities. If you read above, somebody was indeed criticizing it solely based on cost, seemingly.

That said, from what I've read about the bombs and what is known about the areas, as well as looking at all reports taken altogether rather than selectively, I suspect the damage is more impactful. Even if it wasn't, the degree of damage like that can't be guaranteed as an outcome so as long as it plausibly made sense, I still respect the decision.

 

[zizzer]

It cost a few hundred million to get their reactor floors a bit dusty. Success?

Find ways to criticize the mission? You act like people are nitpicking about how much fuel we used or whether we could have used a few less bombs.

Lmao, it was actually you who was nitpicking it based on cost.

 

[UscGhost]

Lmao, it was actually you who was nitpicking it based on cost.

Yup. A few hundred million to delay Iran a few months..failure

A few hundred million to delay years or destroy.. success

Its not difficult. Cost benefit analysis is a key aspect of warfare. A thousand dollar drone takes out a millions dollar tank? Success. A million dollar missile takes out a thousand dollar drone...failure

What other sources of information are you reading besides public statements? They already admitted that most of the uranium was moved out

In my prior posts, when the strike first happened, i agreed with conservatives that it was a success (based on the assumption that it destroyed the nuclear facilities). Then info came out that it didn't even come close and the uranium was also moved away. So i reevaluated and didnt see it as successful anymore.

Conservatives on the other hand, just changed the goal from destruction, to delay, to well at least we didnt lose any pilots.

 

[Southpaw]

🙄

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/in-gaza-and-israel-danger-of-incitement-to-violence-lurks-idUSKCN0SU2BM/

“Outside "Hitler 2", whose owner declined to be interviewed, young Palestinians this week said they liked the shop and were eager to carry out attacks.”

-Reuters

Anyway…

So if there’s an article out there showing an Israeli desiring violence or death on Palestinians does that mean Israel gets compared to Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan? Just want to follow your line of thinking.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Yup. A few hundred million to delay Iran a few months..failure

A few hundred million to delay years or destroy.. success

Its not difficult. Cost benefit analysis is a key aspect of warfare. A thousand dollar drone takes out a millions dollar tank? Success. A million dollar missile takes out a thousand dollar drone...failure

What other sources of information are you reading besides public statements? They already admitted that most of the uranium was moved out

In my prior posts, when the strike first happened, i agreed with conservatives that it was a success (based on the assumption that it destroyed the nuclear facilities). Then info came out that it didn't even come close and the uranium was also moved away. So i reevaluated and didnt see it as successful anymore.

Conservatives on the other hand, just changed the goal from destruction, to delay, to well at least we didnt lose any pilots.

The IAEA and even Iran have stated that the damage to the targets was “significant”. But that really is beside the point and we won’t know exactly how to “put a dollar amount” on it for some time, if ever.

If you could take a step back and hear yourself though. Your entire basis for declaring this mission an abject failure is based on one preliminary leaked document. And now strictly based on how much it cost. See the forest for the trees. If this was still the Biden administration, there is no way you would be digging a line in the sand here. That is a fact.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

So if there’s an article out there showing an Israeli desiring violence or death on Palestinians does that mean Israel gets compared to Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan? Just want to follow your line of thinking.

As Claudine Gay once said, “it would depend on the context”

If you could find me something comparable to a public clothing store called “Hitler2” in Israel with quotes from passersby praising the name, sure. I’ll be waiting…

Doesn’t change the reality for Gaza though. Radicalized.

The roots of Hamas' terror attack can be found in Gaza’s schools

A generation of children in Gaza have been taught to hate from antisemitic textbooks in schools run by Hamas.

forward.com

 

[DirtDocMD]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/stunning-turnaround-stock-market-precipice-112637554.html

Oh, wow….and only 2 months after Trump and his tariffs. Guess he didn’t “wreck the economy”, after all.

 

[Southpaw]

As Claudine Gay once said, “it would depend on the context”

If you could find me something comparable to a public clothing store called “Hitler2” in Israel with quotes from passersby praising the name, sure. I’ll be waiting…

Doesn’t change the reality for Gaza though. Radicalized.

Dude Israel has controlled their land since 1967. They’ve controlled, or allowed, the entirety of their existence. Since 2023 they’ve bombed them indiscriminately. 90% of them are homeless. My guess is not a single Gazan has been spared somehow and someway by Israel. And Israel continues illegal settlements in the West Bank! They are expanding their borders at the expense of Palestinians. Palestinians have been completely and totally oppressed. And you’re comparing them to nations who oppressed others!

It’s as if you’re only willing to look at this situation from….an Israeli perspective.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Dude Israel has controlled their land since 1967. They’ve controlled, or allowed, the entirety of their existence. Since 2023 they’ve bombed them indiscriminately. 90% of them are homeless. My guess is not a single Gazan has been spared somehow and someway by Israel. And Israel continues illegal settlements in the West Bank! They are expanding their borders at the expense of Palestinians. Palestinians have been completely and totally oppressed. And you’re comparing them to nations who oppressed others!

It’s as if you’re only willing to look at this situation from….an Israeli perspective.

True or false:

Schools in Gaza teach antisemitism and glorify violence in their textbooks for school children.

Doesn’t really matter why they’re indoctrinated, legitimate grievance or not. What matters is the result, which is radicalization.

‘This is Not Normal’: Antisemitism in Palestinian School Curriculum Persists as Problem Despite Global Outrage, Experts Say - Algemeiner.com

Study cards for eleventh graders accusing Jews of being “in control of global events through financial power,” seventh graders instructed to describe Israeli soldiers as “Satan’s aides” in a textbook chapter imploring Muslims to “liberate” the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and children gathered to listen to a...

www.algemeiner.com

 

[linkin06]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/stunning-turnaround-stock-market-precipice-112637554.html

Oh, wow….and only 2 months after Trump and his tariffs. Guess he didn’t “wreck the economy”, after all.

lol so he created a ridiculous policy that made no “reciprocal” sense, then pressed Ctrl + z and we are to praise him?

 

[Southpaw]

True or false:

Schools in Gaza teach antisemitism and glorify violence in their textbooks for school children.

Doesn’t really matter why they’re indoctrinated, legitimate grievance or not. What matters is the result, which is radicalization.

‘This is Not Normal’: Antisemitism in Palestinian School Curriculum Persists as Problem Despite Global Outrage, Experts Say - Algemeiner.com

Study cards for eleventh graders accusing Jews of being “in control of global events through financial power,” seventh graders instructed to describe Israeli soldiers as “Satan’s aides” in a textbook chapter imploring Muslims to “liberate” the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and children gathered to listen to a...

www.algemeiner.com

Textbooks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This would appear to go both ways.

It doesn’t matter if their grievance is legitimate or not? Or why they’re indoctrinated? Of course it matters!

 

[linkin06]

The IAEA and even Iran have stated that the damage to the targets was “significant”. But that really is beside the point and we won’t know exactly how to “put a dollar amount” on it for some time, if ever.

If you could take a step back and hear yourself though. Your entire basis for declaring this mission an abject failure is based on one preliminary leaked document. And now strictly based on how much it cost. See the forest for the trees. If this was still the Biden administration, there is no way you would be digging a line in the sand here. That is a fact.

Devils advocate, wouldn’t Iran say that regardless? “Yes you got it all!” But could continue to secretly develop again. You can’t destroy knowledge and I don’t buy they killed every person who has that foundation to further the program. Whereas in the previous Obama agreement there was a protocol to verify compliance, that is gone and we have soured relations more.

 

[DirtDocMD]

lol so he created a ridiculous policy that made no “reciprocal” sense, then pressed Ctrl + z and we are to praise him?

No.

OTOH, you guys don’t have to be “outrageously outraged”, every day, as if the sky is falling and the world is ending.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Textbooks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This would appear to go both ways.

It doesn’t matter if their grievance is legitimate or not? Or why they’re indoctrinated? Of course it matters!

I’m not sure I understand why it matters if the grievance is legitimate. Germany had a number of legitimate grievances against the Treaty of Versailles. The resulting radicalization was corrosive and violent against the rest of the world all the same.

And if the indoctrination does go both ways, equally (let’s allow this incredibly stupid proposition that you seem to be implying), then what’s to be done? Two impossibly radicalized populations will just have to fight it out then.

 

[Lab Lover]

Israel is doing a great job getting themselves extinct within the next decade. They will lose all world support and all of them will migrate out of Israel. Many are migrating already.
Many young American Jews are horrified with Israel's conduct and call them "war criminals". One of our children's teacher is Jewish and told me yesterday that the current government of Israel are war criminals.

Try again. They have devastated HAMAS, Hezbollah, Syria has collapsed, they have air superiority over Iran. Killed lots of their nuclear scientists and military leadership. All mortal enemies. They have demonstrated the ability and willingness to project force and act preemptively.

 

[UscGhost]

The IAEA and even Iran have stated that the damage to the targets was “significant”. But that really is beside the point and we won’t know exactly how to “put a dollar amount” on it for some time, if ever.

If you could take a step back and hear yourself though. Your entire basis for declaring this mission an abject failure is based on one preliminary leaked document. And now strictly based on how much it cost. See the forest for the trees. If this was still the Biden administration, there is no way you would be digging a line in the sand here. That is a fact.

Well if Iran says it..of course.

Yes, the leaked document what was a classified assessment of damage. I certainly wouldn't believe public statements from known liars. Especially when he declared victory before any assessment was even possible. The same document that the admin has launched an investigation to find out how it was leaked...and at the same time, the admin has decided to reduce the amount of info given to Congress because it was leaked. Sounds like that document was pretty legit. Otherwise why go to all that trouble over a fake document?

You misunderstand. The mission was a failure because the objective wasnt achieved. If the mission succeeded in destroying their infrastructure, then you could assess whether it was worth the cost or not. Unless you are saying that the objective was to delay their bomb a few months? Should we launch a strike against North Korea to delay them a few months too then? I would be ok with a strike it if delayed them years...but a few months?? Entirely inconsequential. So they could bomb Israel in dec 2027 instead of October 2027? Hallelujah

Biden administration? I wondered when the usual conservative whining would start.."but if Biden did it"...Maybe throw in some Clinton emails while your at it.

 

[linkin06]

No.

OTOH, you guys don’t have to be “outrageously outraged”, every day, as if the sky is falling and the world is ending.

I’m fully invested too, I want my money to go up. Tariffs were dumb and hurt it a lot but bought some dip yum. I’m not worried long term ever. The world only ends once and I won’t bet on that

Why are you always broad strokes generalizing “the left” “you guys” everyone can have their opinion and be judged just based on what each PERSON believes. And what is in the news is not necessarily what everyone believes automatically.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Devils advocate, wouldn’t Iran say that regardless? “Yes you got it all!” But could continue to secretly develop again. You can’t destroy knowledge and I don’t buy they killed every person who has that foundation to further the program. Whereas in the previous Obama agreement there was a protocol to verify compliance, that is gone and we have soured relations more.

Maybe. But if they aren’t afraid to claim victory I’m not so sure.

Stopping the program is infeasible. Slowing the program is the goal.

Yes, there is a very good argument that staying the course with
JCPOA would have been better.

Well if Iran says it..of course.

Yes, the leaked document what was a classified assessment of damage. I certainly wouldn't believe public statements from known liars. Especially when he declared victory before any assessment was even possible. The same document that the admin has launched an investigation to find out how it was leaked...and at the same time, the admin has decided to reduce the amount of info given to Congress because it was leaked. Sounds like that document was pretty legit. Otherwise why go to all that trouble over a fake document?

You misunderstand. The mission was a failure because the objective wasnt achieved. If the mission succeeded in destroying their infrastructure, then you could assess whether it was worth the cost or not. Unless you are saying that the objective was to delay their bomb a few months? Should we launch a strike against North Korea to delay them a few months too then? I would be ok with a strike it if delayed them years...but a few months?? Entirely inconsequential. So they could bomb Israel in dec 2027 instead of October 2027? Hallelujah

Biden administration? I wondered when the usual conservative whining would start.."but if Biden did it"...Maybe throw in some Clinton emails while your at it.

Israel said it too? Are they both right or both wrong?

LOW CONFIDENCE ASSESSMENT. It doesn’t mean it has no value, I’m saying don’t understand how your entire opinion of the operation hinges on this one thing.

You are ok with “years” but not “months”. Lol what does “months” even mean. How about 12 months? 18 months? What is the preliminary assessment was off by a couple “months”? An abject failure would be an assessment that said the strikes had 0 impact. The fact is going after the infrastructure had an impact.

I don’t understand what you are talking about with North Korea.

Deflect all you want. But thanks for not denying the truth. You would be defending the strike to the grave if somebody you liked was in office.

Will you change your tune if further assessments conclude a successful mission? Or will you continue to dig in deflect and deny?

 

[UscGhost]

Maybe. But if they aren’t afraid to claim victory I’m not so sure.

Stopping the program is infeasible. Slowing the program is the goal.

Yes, there is a very good argument that staying the course with
JCPOA would have been better.






Israel said it too? Are they both right or both wrong?

LOW CONFIDENCE ASSESSMENT. It doesn’t mean it has no value, I’m saying don’t understand how your entire opinion of the operation hinges on this one thing.

You are ok with “years” but not “months”. Lol what does “months” even mean. How about 12 months? 18 months? What is the preliminary assessment was off by a couple “months”? An abject failure would be an assessment that said the strikes had 0 impact. The fact is going after the infrastructure had an impact.

I don’t understand what you are talking about with North Korea.

Deflect all you want. But thanks for not denying the truth. You would be defending the strike to the grave if somebody you liked was in office.

Will you change your tune if further assessments conclude a successful mission? Or will you continue to dig in deflect and deny?

You forget. My initial "tune" in my first post after the strike, when it appeared it did major damage, was that it was an unusual success for Trump. Then it came out that it was less impactful than expected.

12 months would be a year. Thats what it means. Years is plural, so that would be 2-9 years. Decade is 10. Not exactly reinventing math here. So months would be 2-11 months.

Ij regards to North Korea. You appear to define mission success as delaying Iran by 2-11 months. So that logic should also apply to a preemptive strike on North Korea..whom we also dont want to have nukes.

And no, if Biden did the same thing, it would be a failure too. Its not hard.

If it comes out that ot delayed it years, then i would declare it a success just like i originally did. Seems the only person who is changing the goal posts is you

Now if the argument is SHOULD we have tried it..thats different. Depends on the pre-mission odds of success vs risk.

 

[DocMcCoy]

You forget. My initial "tune" in my first post after the strike, when it appeared it did major damage, was that it was an unusual success for Trump. Then it came out that it was less impactful than expected.

12 months would be a year. Thats what it means. Years is plural, so that would be 2-9 years. Decade is 10. Not exactly reinventing math here. So months would be 2-11 months.

Ij regards to North Korea. You appear to define mission success as delaying Iran by 2-11 months. So that logic should also apply to a preemptive strike on North Korea..whom we also dont want to have nukes.

And no, if Biden did the same thing, it would be a failure too. Its not hard.

If it comes out that ot delayed it years, then i would declare it a success just like i originally did. Seems the only person who is changing the goal posts is you

You were for the strikes until the exact minute you had some excuse not to be.

Dude North Korea has nukes…

 

[Southpaw]

I’m not sure I understand why it matters if the grievance is legitimate. Germany had a number of legitimate grievances against the Treaty of Versailles. The resulting radicalization was corrosive and violent against the rest of the world all the same.

And if the indoctrination does go both ways, equally (let’s allow this incredibly stupid proposition that you seem to be implying), then what’s to be done? Two impossibly radicalized populations will just have to fight it out then.

If it is your point that the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles led to the radicalization of German nationalism and the Nazis and similarly the harshness of Israeli rule and treatment of Palestinians over the past 50 years, in particular the complete destruction of Gaza since the Hamas terrorist attack, has laid a framework of Palestinian hatred toward Israelies, then fine. I’d agree.

 

[UscGhost]

You were for the strikes until the exact minute you had some excuse not to be.

Dude North Korea has nukes…

Yup. Thats how real life works. Unless we are handing out war participation trophies now?

You get credit when the mission is successful...and then you get criticized later if its determined to be a failure.

But hey, I'm sure you are still congratulating Bush on saving us from those WMDs eh?

 

[DocMcCoy]

Yup. Thats how real life works. Unless we are handing out war participation trophies now?

You get credit when the mission is successful...and then you get criticized later if its determined to be a failure.

But hey, I'm sure you are still congratulating Bush on saving us from those WMDs eh?

Man you a lecturing the class and you haven’t even cracked the f’ing textbook.

 

[pgg]

Israel is already at war! they have been wanting to attack Iran over “imminent” nuclear ambitions for YEARS. They also seem to hold Iran partly accountable for October 7th. They’ve also skirmished as recently as last year. Anyone standing back and wondering how this could have happened has been living in a cave for the past several years.

That is by no means to say it is justified, it’s just facts. I’ll even throw you a bone and say MAYBE there was some political motivation to take eyes off Gaza and bring some support back for the war. The fact is, it happened and there were no headwinds to stop it from happening. It is apparently over or at least is cooling down. If the US didn’t get involved you think we would have a cease fire right now? I wonder how this would have played out under a Kamala or Biden administration, and then I realize how glad I am they aren’t in charge.

I agree with all that, though I think the bold bit is asking the wrong question there -

Would Israel have attacked Iran in the first place if Kamala or Biden were president, and they couldn't count on the USA to send some B2s with 15-ton bunker buster bombs?

Or maybe we should also be asking, if not for Trump's first term, and his sabotage of the Iran nuclear deal, would we even be discussing Iran's nuclear weapons prospects today?

As long as we're concerning ourselves with hypothetical what-ifs.

Definitely a missed opportunity on our part. We were positioned to parlay our Iran involvement with some Gaza concessions. It could have been as simple as letting a little more aid through or even getting Netanyahu to tone down the shooting of starving people waiting in food lines.

If only we had a president skilled at making deals, who had a State Department staffed with competent career diplomats.

 

[pgg]

I will go out on a limb and say that Kamala lost the election for not supporting Gaza. If she had taken a stronger line against Netanyahu she would have.
Note recently how Zohran Mamdani beat Cuomo handily by supporting Palestinians .

Are you seriously comparing the NYC democratic mayoral primary electorate to the nationwide general election presidential electorate?

Because that would be dumb.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

If it is your point that the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles led to the radicalization of German nationalism and the Nazis and similarly the harshness of Israeli rule and treatment of Palestinians over the past 50 years, in particular the complete destruction of Gaza since the Hamas terrorist attack, has laid a framework of Palestinian hatred toward Israelies, then fine. I’d agree.

I’d say the various people surrounding Israel have always been predisposed to violence in the name of their religion. They’ve always been dealt with harshly by whoever was in charge for the past several hundred years.

The only time there’s been relative peace in the region was when the entire place was ruled by Sultans.

Similarly Today, there are no democratic states in the region that are majority Muslim, they’re all monarchies or authoritarian states.

Israel is just the latest in an incredibly long line of harsh rulers for the people surrounding the area that comprises the Israeli state. Historically, they’re much less repressive than any of the former masters of these states in Syria, Gaza, Lebanon, etc.

So I’m not going to hold Israel solely responsible for the violence of a region that has only known repression and autocracy for the last 800 years.

 

[passiveobserver1979]

Are you seriously comparing the NYC democratic mayoral primary electorate to the nationwide general election presidential electorate?

Because that would be dumb.

Its a microcosm of public opinion in every single urban center in USA. I did not expect Mamdani would win as he was a rank outsider. Time for Republican party and Israel to takes its head out of the sand. If Israel doesn't change its image drastically it will be impossible for a politician to support them openly. Money can only take you so far.

US demographics are changing rapidly and greater than 50% of children are born to non white parents. This is the last generation that will be white majority.

 

[pgg]

Its a microcosm of public opinion in every single urban center in USA. I did not expect Mamdani would win as he was a rank outsider. Time for Republican party and Israel to takes its head out of the sand. If Israel doesn't change its image drastically it will be impossible for a politician to support them openly. Money can only take you so far.

US demographics are changing rapidly and greater than 50% of children are born to non white parents. This is the last generation that will be white majority.

I'll just go ahead and remind you of what you wrote, because it seems you've already forgotten, or are moving the goalposts deliberately:

I will go out on a limb and say that Kamala lost the election for not supporting Gaza.

You weren't talking about future demographics.

You put forth the idea that because a pro-Gaza or anti-Netanyahu guy won a Democratic mayoral primary in New York City this week, that means there were enough people leaning that way amongst the general electorate in the nation as a whole - and who cared about it as much or more than all the other hot button issues - to swing the 2024 presidential election away from Kamala.

And that's just ridiculous.

Also, framing the Israel-Palestinian issue as a racial one, and imagining that US demographics shifting in a not-white direction will sway national elections because of that issue, is even more ridiculous.

Finally, if Democrats want to cater to "a microcosm of public opinion in every single urban center" in future elections, they'd better get used to losing.

 

[passiveobserver1979]

I'll just go ahead and remind you of what you wrote, because it seems you've already forgotten, or are moving the goalposts deliberately:



You weren't talking about future demographics.

You put forth the idea that because a pro-Gaza or anti-Netanyahu guy won a Democratic mayoral primary in New York City this week, that means there were enough people leaning that way amongst the general electorate in the nation as a whole - and who cared about it as much or more than all the other hot button issues - to swing the 2024 presidential election away from Kamala.

And that's just ridiculous.

Also, framing the Israel-Palestinian issue as a racial one, and imagining that US demographics shifting in a not-white direction will sway national elections because of that issue, is even more ridiculous.

Finally, if Democrats want to cater to "a microcosm of public opinion in every single urban center" in future elections, they'd better get used to losing.

I think unless republicans and the democratic establishment change the narrative massively we will have a democratic socialist president in 3 1/2 years.

Americans split on support for Israel and Hamas, Harvard poll shows | The Jerusalem Post

A Knesset report found that while overall support for Israel remained high at 75%, more young people remained split on support for Israel.

www.jpost.com

 

[UscGhost]

Man you a lecturing the class and you haven’t even cracked the f’ing textbook.

Nice retort.

Don't worry, you get a participation trophy too! Mission successful!