Biden Out of Race

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And not to be a complete dick, but that sentiment also goes for anesthesiologists who hire their children and spouses to help run their ever-so-complicated 1099 locums gigs and then deduct their plane tickets for the family ski trip, er, I mean "corporate retreat".
Agree. I think that is far too risky and a blatant abuse of the tax system. I think there are areas in life for every human where normalization of deviance creeps in and we make excuses for doing things that we know are wrong. It will be different for each individual, but everyone has something in their life, no matter how upstanding of a citizen they may be.
 
His statement, as written is hyperbolic and not true, but he may have been making a point, but stating it incorrectly.

If you wrote it, I'd take it that way. But this is aneftp ...

There is a widely accepted belief that the average person arrested drove drunk about 80 times before they were arrested for it. I believe this is based upon self confessions of those who were arrested, so the study may not be completely accurate, but is widely quoted. I think the point is valid that many people drive drunk a whole bunch before they are ever caught. It has also been estimated that 10% of drivers on the road on a weekend late evening will test positive for alcohol and that maybe 3% are severely impaired. There is a lot of data out there that drunk driving is prevalent.

"On average, a drunk driver will drive 80 times under the influence before their first arrest.^[Centers for Disease Control. “Vital Signs: Alcohol-Impaired Driving Among Adults — United States, 2010.” Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. October 4, 2011]"

So, I think if he had stated his point correctly, it would be a valid comparison. A lot of people are deceptive in their business dealings related to mortgage loans and see it as not a big deal and a very low likelihood to get them in trouble. Similarly, a lot of people drive impaired and think they are just fine to drive or they only have to go a few miles and think the risk of getting caught or causing an accident is low. So, in both scenarios, they knowingly do something wrong because they feel the risk is low. The reality seems to be that they are correct. The risk is very low. But, when caught, the penalty can be high. I think this sort of thing is common in humans in a lot of areas. We are all flawed.

I totally agree that a whole lot of drivers out there are impaired - but even the stat you posted (10% impaired) if true is a far, far cry from "everyone"

Again this is aneftp, whose entire shtick is chaos loving, both-sides-bad, everyone cheats, everyone lies. Everyone commits tax fraud ... seriously, the core of his defense of his own egregiously ridiculous confessions of tax fraud on this very forum is always Well corporations have bigger loopholes and they pay so little that it's OK to write off his home theater if he checks his work email on the big screen once in a while.

So when he says everyone drives drunk, I just wondered if he does it and really believes the rest of us do too.

Hence my WTF are you serious reply.

For AG James, it is particularly embarrassing because she had very publically gone after someone who is very high profile and had a stated vendetta. To find out that she had (allegedly) done the same thing is an unfortunate outcome for her.
Yep. I'm cool with burning her, assuming the accusation is true and proven in court.
 
I found this interesting. I think this is probably an accurate analysis of the events. It feels like lawfare and retaliation, but, considering the actions against Trump, perhaps justified. The whole thing is dripping with karma.





Well, not accurate at all

1. Overinflation of assets to get better loans isnt a novel crime. People get charged with that all the time. So Trumps civil conviction wasnt unusual.

2. The case wasnt overturned on appeal. The appeal court confirmed the verdict..they just overturned the fine as excessive

3. Hillary wasnt prosecuted because there was no evidence of criminal intent or obstruction. Trumps classified records case showed clear intent and repeated direct obstruction..but he got off because he picked his own judge. Willy didnt mention that..
Trump also was vocally asking for her to be prosecuted for years and years..so he didn't "let it go"

Will Chamberlain is hardcore Maga..lets not pretend he is anything close to nonpartisan

In regards to Leticia James..if she did the crime, then she should do the time. Both her and Trump committed the fraud, neither thought they would get caught..and here we are
 
Agree. I think that is far too risky and a blatant abuse of the tax system. I think there are areas in life for every human where normalization of deviance creeps in and we make excuses for doing things that we know are wrong. It will be different for each individual, but everyone has something in their life, no matter how upstanding of a citizen they may be.
True enough.

I do think the punishment for getting caught doing something that's a touch over the line ought to be restitution and perhaps a fine. And mostly that's how the system works.

Re: taxes, the IRS corrected my return once and I ended up owing some more money. They charged me some interest and a small penalty as well.

Speeding is a good example. I don't make a habit of driving fast but I've paid speeding tickets before.


But if you're going to make a living and a campaign point about stomping out corruption though, man, you better be squeaky clean. Or you deserve what you get when the pendulum swings.

In that vein, Donald Trump leading chants of "lock her up" in regards to HRC's email server, her willful avoidance of recordkeeping laws, and her totally completely accidental destruction of said evidence ... followed by his own mishandling of classified documents (and resistance to returning them) ... doesn't stir any kind of charitable, let bygones be bygones, non-prosecuted courtesy, kind of feelings in me. Burn him.

And that's before we even get into the rapey stuff. Expose them all, burn them all.
 
Hillary wasnt prosecuted because there was no evidence of criminal intent or obstruction.

Oooof

I'm going to disagree there on two main points -

1) Her intent in running a personal email server, ie to avoid record keeping, oversight, and archival laws, was pretty obvious. She's not stupid.

2) Intent is largely irrelevant in many cases, where conduct is grossly negligent and it's widely understood that an action is dangerous or illegal.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, your INTENT is absolutely irrelevant.


I get a little frustrated with the left's whitewashing of HRC's email server and the BUTTER EMAILS memes. She willfully, knowingly, irresponsibly, dangerously broke the law and destroyed evidence to cover it up. The fact that she was just clever enough to skate away from it all is not OK, even if later crimes by another person that I dislike more were worse.

Trumps classified records case showed clear intent and repeated direct obstruction..but he got off because he picked his own judge.

Sure. Trump is a criminal and ought to be in prison, not president, but an election happened, and the people spoke.

So it goes. Democracy in action. The remedy is coming up in 2026 and 2028.
 
Oooof

I'm going to disagree there on two main points -

1) Her intent in running a personal email server, ie to avoid record keeping, oversight, and archival laws, was pretty obvious. She's not stupid.

2) Intent is largely irrelevant in many cases, where conduct is grossly negligent and it's widely understood that an action is dangerous or illegal.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, your INTENT is absolutely irrelevant.


I get a little frustrated with the left's whitewashing of HRC's email server and the BUTTER EMAILS memes. She willfully, knowingly, irresponsibly, dangerously broke the law and destroyed evidence to cover it up. The fact that she was just clever enough to skate away from it all is not OK, even if later crimes by another person that I dislike more were worse.



Sure. Trump is a criminal and ought to be in prison, not president, but an election happened, and the people spoke.

So it goes. Democracy in action. The remedy is coming up in 2026 and 2028.

Gotta disagree with you on one point. Intent DOES matter when a drunk person kills someone. That's why they are charged with manslaughter and not murder.
 
Gotta disagree with you on one point. Intent DOES matter when a drunk person kills someone. That's why they are charged with manslaughter and not murder.
OK fair enough but my point was just that lack of intent doesn't mean the person gets off.

A manslaughter conviction is a big deal.


And when a Secretary Of State ignores laws concerning record keeping and management of sensitive information, we probably don't really need to concern ourselves with "intent" unless data leaks to a foreign power and the word "espionage" gets thrown i to the mix.
 
There are so many people who lie on mortgage applications. It’s so common. Very few get caught getting “favorable” loan rates.

Notice the irony with James pursuit of Trump “favorable rate” with his business loans.

Come on. It’s all about principle of things.

James lied on her application renting out her Virginia house.

Anyone who has done a mortgage application as a primary or even secondary home. Know u can’t rent it out within a year

She’s playing dumb. And she’s attorney general. U can’t be serious that it’s an “honest mistake” as she claims.
 
Gotta disagree with you on one point. Intent DOES matter when a drunk person kills someone. That's why they are charged with manslaughter and not murder.
Intent is a very broad definition. The same reason Trump got convicted with his Manhattan case…intent.

Did James lie on purpose renting out her Virginia house?? What was her “intent and if she had rented it out due to circumstances she needed to call her lender she was doing it. She’s is playing idiot here.
 
If she broke the law, I'm totally cool with her getting prosecuted for it, and any ill-gotten funds clawed back.

Shrug

As someone who doesn't cheat on taxes or submit fraudulent loan applications or rip people off in general, I don't have any sympathy for people who willingly and knowingly break those laws.

The tax system is complex and mistakes happen (often), so the appropriate remedy is almost always going to be correction of the error and payment of what was owed, not criminal prosecution though. Intent is hard to prove.


And not to be a complete dick, but that sentiment also goes for anesthesiologists who hire their children and spouses to help run their ever-so-complicated 1099 locums gigs and then deduct their plane tickets for the family ski trip, er, I mean "corporate retreat".

Oooof

I'm going to disagree there on two main points -

1) Her intent in running a personal email server, ie to avoid record keeping, oversight, and archival laws, was pretty obvious. She's not stupid.

2) Intent is largely irrelevant in many cases, where conduct is grossly negligent and it's widely understood that an action is dangerous or illegal.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, your INTENT is absolutely irrelevant.


I get a little frustrated with the left's whitewashing of HRC's email server and the BUTTER EMAILS memes. She willfully, knowingly, irresponsibly, dangerously broke the law and destroyed evidence to cover it up. The fact that she was just clever enough to skate away from it all is not OK, even if later crimes by another person that I dislike more were worse.



Sure. Trump is a criminal and ought to be in prison, not president, but an election happened, and the people spoke.

So it goes. Democracy in action. The remedy is coming up in 2026 and 2028.
--The people dont get to vote on that.

--Aileen canon dismissed the charges because of the appointment of a special prosecutor.. regardless of the fact that special prosecutors have been used countless times before

--Intent was very much central to prior historical prosecutions of the alleged crimes. No intent = no prosecution. So she wasnt prosecuted as there was no evidence of intent

Let me know if DUI is historically prosecuted regardless of intent?

Hillary Clinton was not prosecuted because the FBI concluded in 2016 that while she and her staff were "extremely careless" in handling classified information, there was no clear evidence that she intended to violate laws. This decision was based on the FBI's year-long investigation into her use of a private email server while Secretary of State.

Key factors in the decision

No criminal intent: Former FBI Director James Comey stated that there was insufficient evidence to prove that Clinton had the required criminal intent to prosecute her under the relevant statutes. The investigation determined her conduct was extremely careless, but carelessness alone does not meet the legal standard for a criminal charge in this context.
 
There are so many people who lie on mortgage applications. It’s so common. Very few get caught getting “favorable” loan rates.

Notice the irony with James pursuit of Trump “favorable rate” with his business loans.

Come on. It’s all about principle of things.

James lied on her application renting out her Virginia house.

Anyone who has done a mortgage application as a primary or even secondary home. Know u can’t rent it out within a year

She’s playing dumb. And she’s attorney general. U can’t be serious that it’s an “honest mistake” as she claims.
Have you even done it? Is it really that common? Did not do it when I was buying my 2nd home.
 
Have you even done it? Is it really that common? Did not do it when I was buying my 2nd home.
One home. Only time two homes was in between selling homes. You sign an affidavit saying it will be ur primary home. Because the second home rate is generally 0.5-0.75% higher in terms of mortgage and rental homes I think are around 1-1.25% higher.

I’m pretty simple.

And yes. I’m in Florida. So many people lied in 2000 housing boom and bust. And the govt turned the other way with the mortgage and forgiveness act which was only meant to be for primary homes.
 
Most done.

Some certainly do.

Does it matter? Definitely if you get caught
This is really a small civil fine and move on. But guess Trump wants to spend 20 million of taxpayer money like Alvin bragg did to punish a target. And it will result on zero jail time.
 
I don’t care if she technically did it. This is a classic case of “show me the man, I’ll show you the crime”. There are so many laws on the books we all run afoul of something (ever record a blood pressure on a paper record that may not have been quite accurate 😉. Congratulations, you just committed a federal offense). The president of the United States appointed a flunky and said find something on this person. That is wrong. It was just as wrong when James and Bragg did essentially the same thing to him but two don’t make a right.
 
I don’t care if she technically did it. This is a classic case of “show me the man, I’ll show you the crime”. There are so many laws on the books we all run afoul of something (ever record a blood pressure on a paper record that may not have been quite accurate 😉. Congratulations, you just committed a federal offense). The president of the United States appointed a flunky and said find something on this person. That is wrong. It was just as wrong when James and Bragg did essentially the same thing to him but two don’t make a right.
In all fairness, she did the same thing to Trump.

Again, I am not talking about the other classified document case in FL and election interference in Georgia.
 
I don’t care if she technically did it. This is a classic case of “show me the man, I’ll show you the crime”. There are so many laws on the books we all run afoul of something (ever record a blood pressure on a paper record that may not have been quite accurate 😉. Congratulations, you just committed a federal offense). The president of the United States appointed a flunky and said find something on this person. That is wrong. It was just as wrong when James and Bragg did essentially the same thing to him but two don’t make a right.
This has been my point all along.
Did Trump go after anyone in his first term? I can’t recall.

Maybe he did try with Bolton, Hillary. Just couldn’t get enough dirt on them.

I do find it weird he commuted Illinois governor sentence the due who tried to sell Obama senate seat when it became vacant RB. So he likes shady character

There are a lot of spider webs in many individuals. But some are truly clean. I don’t think trump has any dirt on Jack smith. He may be really too clean to go after.
 
This has been my point all along.
Did Trump go after anyone in his first term? I can’t recall.

Maybe he did try with Bolton, Hillary. Just couldn’t get enough dirt on them.

I do find it weird he commuted Illinois governor sentence the due who tried to sell Obama senate seat when it became vacant RB. So he likes shady character

There are a lot of spider webs in many individuals. But some are truly clean. I don’t think trump has any dirt on Jack smith. He may be really too clean to go after.
His first term he had basically traditional cabinet members. He sure he posted on twitter and issued executive orders but they were either slow walked or ignored by the rank and file. Trump 2.0 has been staffed by true project 2025 believers who took control of all levers of government from day 1 and have not slowed down at all.
 

Hegseth says US will host Qatari air force facility in Idaho​


Trump is building a 5B golf resort in Qatar and get a 400M plane. Now we got that. What the heck is going on?

Did we have anything similar before?
Similar to a foreign training squadron in the US? Idaho hosted (is hosting?) A Singaporean fighter squadron. There were a few German 'fighter' pilots there too about a decade ago, but the German air force is more like a civilian air patrol group with out dated F4 fighters.
 
I disagree. Blue cities attract poor people due to the entitlement programs available from higher taxes on the rich.

The super rich are shielded from these high taxes as most had homes in zero state income states like Nevada and Florida.
How about the fact that they were born and bred there. The majority of the poor did not purposely travel to these places unless they were looking fur better opportunities like everyone else. Most poor people are not looking for a handout.
 
If you wrote it, I'd take it that way. But this is aneftp ...



I totally agree that a whole lot of drivers out there are impaired - but even the stat you posted (10% impaired) if true is a far, far cry from "everyone"

Again this is aneftp, whose entire shtick is chaos loving, both-sides-bad, everyone cheats, everyone lies. Everyone commits tax fraud ... seriously, the core of his defense of his own egregiously ridiculous confessions of tax fraud on this very forum is always Well corporations have bigger loopholes and they pay so little that it's OK to write off his home theater if he checks his work email on the big screen once in a while.

So when he says everyone drives drunk, I just wondered if he does it and really believes the rest of us do too.

Hence my WTF are you serious reply.


Yep. I'm cool with burning her, assuming the accusation is true and proven in court.
The man has forced his people to go after ho many black women with the same bogus charges? The legitimate DOJ attorneys quit rather than being part to his vendetta against Black women.
 
The man has forced his people to go after ho many black women with the same bogus charges? The legitimate DOJ attorneys quit rather than being part to his vendetta against Black women.

Force? They can quit, like you said.

What vandetta against 'many' black women? Can you tell me another black woman he's gone after? That smells like some liberal nonsense you pulled out of your rear end. I hate the guy but I will call BS when I see it.

The pattern is he goes after people who go after him. Comey, for starters.
 
Force? They can quit, like you said.

What vandetta against 'many' black women? Can you tell me another black woman he's gone after? That smells like some liberal nonsense you pulled out of your rear end. I hate the guy but I will call BS when I see it.

The pattern is he goes after people who go after him. Comey, for starters.
Maybe he was going for the Nobel Petty prize
 
Force? They can quit, like you said.

What vandetta against 'many' black women? Can you tell me another black woman he's gone after? That smells like some liberal nonsense you pulled out of your rear end. I hate the guy but I will call BS when I see it.

The pattern is he goes after people who go after him. Comey, for starters.
Lisa Cook did nothing to Trump personally other than exist on the fed reserve board.
 
While MAGA is doing their best to pin this shutdown on Democrats I'm hopeful America is seeing MAGA for what it is - a party of elites ready and willing to leave the large majority of Americans behind. Most of America isn't doing well in this economy. Who knows if the peace deal in Gaza will hold (America tolerated a genocide in Gaza for a lengthy period of time - because daddy Trump said to, the rest of the world spoke out on the genocide long ago). We're still sending however many billions to Ukraine (after MAGA warmed up to Putin...a lot of good that did the American taxpayer). Now we're bailing out Argentina to the tune of $20 billion. Qatar building a freaking air force facility here? What's the American taxpayer getting? Diddly squat.

Grocery prices are sky high. The cost of living for average Americans is insane. If you haven't owned stocks and real estate over the last decade you have been left far far behind. If Democrats relent on the MAGA budget healthcare will become even MORE unaffordable (see comments by MTG who has parted with MAGA on healthcare and reasons for the shutdown). Millions of Americans will already lose their healthcare via the 'nasty disgustingly bloated budget for the elites' that Trump pushed through months ago.

We'll see if tech/AI can continue to carry this economy, but the warning indicators of a collapse are blaring. Even more worrisome, America has turned into a country of 'elites' and 'the rest'. No one can convince me this is good for us long term.
 
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Also, for all the negativity over the COVID vaccine in recent years by MAGA physicians, recognize Trump got his COVID vaccine at his recent physical. He's old and fat (HIGH RISK!!) so I can't blame him, but couldn't help but chuckle inside because of all the anti-vaxx rhetoric here.

TACO!!
 
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What does the American taxpayer get out of this?
Probably the same thing we get out of every other cooperative training agreement and military exercise with other nations - soft power, closer ties to allies, stronger counter to adversaries like Russia and China in that part of the world.

Dollars spent on these relationships are among the best we spend on the military.

If the cost concerns you, consider that these training partnerships often lead to the guest nations buying weapon systems from us instead of Russia or China.
 
If she broke the law, I'm totally cool with her getting prosecuted for it, and any ill-gotten funds clawed back.

Shrug

As someone who doesn't cheat on taxes or submit fraudulent loan applications or rip people off in general, I don't have any sympathy for people who willingly and knowingly break those laws.

The tax system is complex and mistakes happen (often), so the appropriate remedy is almost always going to be correction of the error and payment of what was owed, not criminal prosecution though. Intent is hard to prove.


And not to be a complete dick, but that sentiment also goes for anesthesiologists who hire their children and spouses to help run their ever-so-complicated 1099 locums gigs and then deduct their plane tickets for the family ski trip, er, I mean "corporate retreat".
I’m probably close to the bottom of the barrel in terms of tax schemes.

I’m not even close to what real 1099 people are doing. A few full time 1099 crnas and docs are paying single figures percent federal taxes on their 1099 income. We all know the tax games. Delaware corp. Going to farms etc. Deducting personal clothes their employee children buy off their business income and so on.

Remember I also have a real w2 job plus 1099 income. It’s hard to hide the w2 income. My effective tax rate was close to 27% last year. I paid a ton of taxes. My accountant can easily shave 100k more off in taxes but I disagreed with him. My usual effective tax rate hovers around 15-18% which is pretty normal when u make around 500k 1099 off which most of it going towards pretax retirement. That’s pretty common when on a married tax bracket as the higher marginal tax rate doesn’t really kick in. But I made a lot more last year so paid much more taxes. Pretty simple to say I don’t game the system as much as people think I do. Others are way worse at the tax abuse.

My colleague made very similar to me last year and paid 9% effective tax rate. 9%!

Many of the people don’t openly disclose what they do with their taxes.
While MAGA is doing their best to pin this shutdown on Democrats I'm hopeful America is seeing MAGA for what it is - a party of elites ready and willing to leave the large majority of Americans behind. Most of America isn't doing well in this economy. Who knows if the peace deal in Gaza will hold (America tolerated a genocide in Gaza for a lengthy period of time - because daddy Trump said to, the rest of the world spoke out on the genocide long ago). We're still sending however many billions to Ukraine (after MAGA warmed up to Putin...a lot of good that did the American taxpayer). Now we're bailing out Argentina to the tune of $20 billion. Qatar building a freaking air force facility here? What's the American taxpayer getting? Diddly squat.

Grocery prices are sky high. The cost of living for average Americans is insane. If you haven't owned stocks and real estate over the last decade you have been left far far behind. If Democrats relent on the MAGA budget healthcare will become even MORE unaffordable (see comments by MTG who has parted with MAGA on healthcare and reasons for the shutdown). Millions of Americans will already lose their healthcare via the 'nasty disgustingly bloated budget for the elites' that Trump pushed through months ago.

We'll see if tech/AI can continue to carry this economy, but the warning indicators of a collapse are blaring. Even more worrisome, America has turned into a country of 'elites' and 'the rest'. No one can convince me this is good for us long term.
i hope u do realize the democrats are run by the elite as well. It’s shocking how blinded some people are who runs either party.

1. All the price increase started with Biden. Do you remember that?

2. The ACA was supposed to make healthcare “affordable”. Remember that? It’s only given the insurers a blank check on the exchanges the charge similar to what employers pay. Except you are dead on the water if u have to pay for the ACA exchanges yourself without govt assistance. That was never in the blueprint when the Dems passed the law. What’s even worse is not only do these people need subsidies. They need “enhanced subsidies” on top of the subsidies

3. Housing prices jump big time 2021-2023 under Biden. Not Trump
 
Probably the same thing we get out of every other cooperative training agreement and military exercise with other nations - soft power, closer ties to allies, stronger counter to adversaries like Russia and China in that part of the world.

Dollars spent on these relationships are among the best we spend on the military.

If the cost concerns you, consider that these training partnerships often lead to the guest nations buying weapon systems from us instead of Russia or China.

I wholly support soft power. Not sure I can get on board with a Qatari training facility in Idaho. Especially given what I know of the Trump real estate projects in Qatar and them gifting him a plane. Do I believe this project in particular will benefit the average American? No. Do I think soft power is good for the average American? Yes.
 
I wholly support soft power. Not sure I can get on board with a Qatari training facility in Idaho. Especially given what I know of the Trump real estate projects in Qatar and them gifting him a plane. Do I believe this project in particular will benefit the average American? No. Do I think soft power is good for the average American? Yes.
I don't have a strong opinion on this particular plan.

I often criticize Trump 🙂 but I don't see a solid reason to get worked up over this particular thing. Not everything he does is terrible. If other information comes out I might revise that opinion.
 
@aneftp I certainly recognize Dems are elites. At least the Pelosis, Schumers, et al. But you’re barking up the wrong tree if you want to convince me what I’m seeing out of Trump is good for the average American.
Depends what ur definition of “middle class is”

The republicans plans have protected those making 50-100k. Clearly in the middle class. Child care tax credit. Bush 43 tax cuts. Ingenious. And u fail to realize how benefical the bush tax cuts were to the middle class. Obama faced a stare down in 2010 sunset and ran with his tail behind his legs and continued the bush tax cuts when he vowed to let it sunset. McCain wanted to keep them permanent. ….Obama kept pretty much all the bush tax cuts permanent. ….so what helps the middle class? The republicans.

The democratic plans really hurt the “upper middle class” While u may not consider 100-200k family of 4 middle class. Many consider it upper middle class. The democrats tax plans hurt that portion of the middle class. Someone making 150k self employed with a family of 4/5 is looking at a 40k healthcare bill per year without help. And that’s the democratic fault even with tweaks in the plan. That’s what this current shutdown is all about. Those subsidies Joey Biden snuck in to try to expand the 8.5% cap. Because the ACA has not really controlled healthcare cost. It just forces the govt to subsidize 70-90% of all cost on the ACA exchange. Another 18% increase is coming

Who hurts the middle class…the democrats
 
Depends what ur definition of “middle class is”

The republicans plans have protected those making 50-100k. Clearly in the middle class. Child care tax credit. Bush 43 tax cuts. Ingenious. And u fail to realize how benefical the bush tax cuts were to the middle class. Obama faced a stare down in 2010 sunset and ran with his tail behind his legs and continued the bush tax cuts when he vowed to let it sunset. McCain wanted to keep them permanent. ….Obama kept pretty much all the bush tax cuts permanent. ….so what helps the middle class? The republicans.

The democratic plans really hurt the “upper middle class” While u may not consider 100-200k family of 4 middle class. Many consider it upper middle class. The democrats tax plans hurt that portion of the middle class. Someone making 150k self employed with a family of 4/5 is looking at a 40k healthcare bill per year without help. And that’s the democratic fault even with tweaks in the plan. That’s what this current shutdown is all about. Those subsidies Joey Biden snuck in to try to expand the 8.5% cap. Because the ACA has not really controlled healthcare cost. It just forces the govt to subsidize 70-90% of all cost on the ACA exchange. Another 18% increase is coming

Who hurts the middle class…the democrats

CBO estimates 10.9 million Americans will lose their healthcare due to the OBBB. I'm generally fine with the medicaid work requirements. Regarding the shutdown currently I'm on board with MTGs thoughts (first time I've ever said that). All healthcare related cuts will go to pay for the tax cuts for wealthy Americans (like us - discussed over in the economy thread where we can all roughly calculate what we will save in taxes).

I'm not discussing anything ACA with you. That's pissing in the wind.
 
CBO estimates 10.9 million Americans will lose their healthcare due to the OBBB. I'm generally fine with the medicaid work requirements. Regarding the shutdown currently I'm on board with MTGs thoughts (first time I've ever said that). All healthcare related cuts will go to pay for the tax cuts for wealthy Americans (like us - discussed over in the economy thread where we can all roughly calculate what we will save in taxes).

I'm not discussing anything ACA with you. That's pissing in the wind.
CBO has consistently moved the goalpost with the estimates. Try being 1 billion over estimate and backtracking

U won’t discuss the ACA because u know I make my points valid. It’s a touchy subject with all u liberals on here. The law never really got new paying customers. It’s the simple truth. Just cost shifted everyone. Now people are in for sticker shock with the govt shutdown. It’s becuase the govt keeps paying the insurers more and more to keep up with the subsides.

Think about it this way. No way I should be getting 10k to sit around at home on beeper on some weekends and maybe work 2-4 hrs some weekends. No way that should be possible. Guess what? The reason this happened is because the ACA! It’s given so much money to the hospitals in terms of increasing facility fees paid by insurance. Hospitals can afford to “subsidize” my anesthesia income.

I have no incentive to lower what I get paid.

That’s how subsidies work.
 
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CBO has consistently moved the goalpost with the estimates. Try being 1 billion over estimate and backtracking

U won’t discuss the ACA because u know I make my points valid. It’s a touchy subject with all u liberals on here. The law never really got new paying customers. It’s the simple truth. Just cost shifted everyone. Now people are in for sticker shock with the govt shutdown. It’s becuase the govt keeps paying the insurers more and more to keep up with the subsides.

Think about it this way. No way I should be getting 10k to sit around at home on beeper on some weekends and maybe work 2-4 hrs some weekends. No way that should that possible. Guess what? The reason this happened is because the ACA! It’s given so much money to the hospitals in terms of increasing facility fees paid by insurance. Hospitals can afford to “subsidize” my anesthesia income.

I have no incentive to lower what I get paid.

That’s how subsidies work.

Hospitals will keep the doors open. They'll pay you what the market demands. I don't care what you get for how little you work - good for you. Keep it up.

Pre-ACA those with major medical issues couldn't afford insurance. Now healthy middle class Americans can't afford it outside of an employer. Yes, it was cost shifting. Effectively a forced system where everyone bought in for the good of everyone. Unfortunately it gave the controlling power to greater capitalistic endeavors as opposed to physicians (thought the same could be said of them also). The ACA errored in who holds the power - it shifted to insurance companies and hospitals. Not us.
 
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By the way, the MAGAs have time and time again tried to repeal and replace the ACA. They have absolutely zero plan on healthcare for Americans. MAGA currently has POTUS, congress, and SCOTUS. Each and every time they make an attempt they fail, or whatever they put forth leads to fewer Americans having healthcare coverage. On healthcare for Americans, MAGA fails.
 
Hospitals will keep the doors open. They'll pay you what the market demands. I don't care what you get for how little you work - good for you. Keep it up.

Pre-ACA those with major medical issues couldn't afford insurance. Now healthy middle class Americans can't afford it outside of an employer. Yes, it was cost shifting. Effectively a forced system where everyone bought in for the good of everyone. Unfortunately it gave the controlling power to greater capitalistic endeavors as opposed to physicians (thought the same could be said of them also). The ACA errored in who holds the power - it shifted to insurance companies and hospitals. Not us.
That I will agree with u.
 
Hospitals will keep the doors open. They'll pay you what the market demands. I don't care what you get for how little you work - good for you. Keep it up.

Pre-ACA those with major medical issues couldn't afford insurance. Now healthy middle class Americans can't afford it outside of an employer. Yes, it was cost shifting. Effectively a forced system where everyone bought in for the good of everyone. Unfortunately it gave the controlling power to greater capitalistic endeavors as opposed to physicians (thought the same could be said of them also). The ACA errored in who holds the power - it shifted to insurance companies and hospitals. Not us.

Tell me about it. I am 1099 and for good insurance for me and my kid costs about $900 a month.
 
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While MAGA is doing their best to pin this shutdown on Democrats I'm hopeful America is seeing MAGA for what it is - a party of elites ready and willing to leave the large majority of Americans behind. Most of America isn't doing well in this economy. Who knows if the peace deal in Gaza will hold (America tolerated a genocide in Gaza for a lengthy period of time - because daddy Trump said to, the rest of the world spoke out on the genocide long ago). We're still sending however many billions to Ukraine (after MAGA warmed up to Putin...a lot of good that did the American taxpayer). Now we're bailing out Argentina to the tune of $20 billion. Qatar building a freaking air force facility here? What's the American taxpayer getting? Diddly squat.

Grocery prices are sky high. The cost of living for average Americans is insane. If you haven't owned stocks and real estate over the last decade you have been left far far behind. If Democrats relent on the MAGA budget healthcare will become even MORE unaffordable (see comments by MTG who has parted with MAGA on healthcare and reasons for the shutdown). Millions of Americans will already lose their healthcare via the 'nasty disgustingly bloated budget for the elites' that Trump pushed through months ago.

We'll see if tech/AI can continue to carry this economy, but the warning indicators of a collapse are blaring. Even more worrisome, America has turned into a country of 'elites' and 'the rest'. No one can convince me this is good for us long term.
The economy is good for you. You probably will save 30-50k due to OBBB that congress passed. You also have made a lot of money in the stock market in the past 2 yrs. Don't try to be a savior of people that are voting AGAINST their economic interest.

Trump is not good for for the bottom 75% of Americans. However, he is good for the top 10% and great for the 1%, which you are part of.
 
The economy is good for you. You probably will save 30-50k due to OBBB that congress passed. You also have made a lot of money in the stock market in the past 2 yrs. Don't try to be a savior of people that are voting AGAINST their economic interest.

Trump is not good for for the bottom 75% of Americans. However, he is good for the top 10% and great for the 1%, which you are part of.

Certainly I can't save people who don't want to be saved. However the reality is I believe the government can be used for good. A hand up, not a hand out. There's a big difference. I do not believe in the dismantling of the US government for the benefit of a select few. That's what is occurring currently.

The largest concern is what America looks like when we devolve into a top 10% and 'the rest'. I believe it looks like a very ugly country. A place where I don't want to live. Also I have great concerns for my children what their lives will look like in this new America.

When you throw in increasing civil unrest with worsening political polarization and a completely obsessed gun culture, I have a very dim outlook for American society. Honestly I think we're barely hanging on by a thread.
 
Certainly I can't save people who don't want to be saved. However the reality is I believe the government can be used for good. A hand up, not a hand out. There's a big difference. I do not believe in the dismantling of the US government for the benefit of a select few. That's what is occurring currently.

The largest concern is what America looks like when we devolve into a top 10% and 'the rest'. I believe it looks like a very ugly country. A place where I don't want to live. Also I have great concerns for my children what their lives will look like in this new America.

When you throw in increasing civil unrest with worsening political polarization and a completely obsessed gun culture, I have a very dim outlook for American society. Honestly I think we're barely hanging on by a thread.
It's already that. The top 10% own ~70% of the wealth of the country. It's already the top 10% and "the rest". Both democrats and republicans are complicit, albeit the republicans have been worse.
 
It's already that. The top 10% own ~70% of the wealth of the country. It's already the top 10% and "the rest". Both democrats and republicans are complicit, albeit the republicans have been worse.


I don't know how complicit the Democratic party has been. But Joe Biden as our most recent example of a Democratic president was the most pro-labor President in close to 100 years.
 

I don't know how complicit the Democratic party has been. But Joe Biden as our most recent example of a Democratic president was the most pro-labor President in close to 100 years.
In all honesty, Biden administration was not that bad, but he screwed up badly on immigration.

As @aneftp stated above, Hussein Obama should have gone back to the Clinton tax bracket.
 
The economy is good for you. You probably will save 30-50k due to OBBB that congress passed. You also have made a lot of money in the stock market in the past 2 yrs. Don't try to be a savior of people that are voting AGAINST their economic interest.

Trump is not good for for the bottom 75% of Americans. However, he is good for the top 10% and great for the 1%, which you are part of.
This is not true. If he creates instability to the point of a black swan/civil war the top 10% are just as ****ed--only people with private jets and self-sustaining compounds with security teams are going to be ok in that scenario.. Would much rather pay more taxes than gamble on this increasingly likely possibility.
 
Those of you who are still beating the “both side” drum are the real problem.

I can’t think of a bigger idiot than the American centrist.
There is not that many centrists per se. Most people vote on a few issues. For instance, I vote republicans because of social issues and I couldn't care less that they will mess up the economy, which they have done a lot more than the dems since I have been paying attention to politics.

I am not afraid to say it because I am not a partisan hack just like some other posters here.

 
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