Bill introduced to eliminate PSLF

[IslandStyle808]

I got a gently used double-wide coming my way when my parents die...

Oh snap, you don't need to worry about paying rent. You are winning!

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[SunsFun]

People can pay for school without pslf

Sure, but making it harder to repay loans by eliminating options that may have contributed to decision to pursue medical degree in the first place will likely further marginalize those of us not coming from wealthy or even middle-class backgrounds in medical school. Making a case that people who may not be able to otherwise pay back their loans should not be in medical school, to some extend, does exactly that.

Also, many of my peers feel uneasy about all the debt they have incurred and, I suspect, many would not have gone to medical school without an option to go back to their community and/or work in a lesser-compensated field.

Even I feel some pressure to choose private practice and serve the well-insured over academics seriving the poor and underserved, which is my current intention. If I knew the only way for me to pay back my loans without financial hardship is private practice, I would have thought longer and harder about whether medicine is right for me. From purely ethical standpoint, I don’t see a good justification to have this as a potential deterrent for students like me.

 

[deleted645092]

They would still have an income based repayment, but it would be 15 percent of.your income, and the loans.woukd go away when you have paid as much as you would have paid under a 10 year plan. There is no number of payments that would make the loan go away if you don't hit that number.

They are also talking about a hard cap on loans to graduate school of 150000 per borrower, which could arguably cut the cost of medical school in half overnight

I haven't read all the way through this post yet so forgive me if it has been addressed already, but it is my understanding that this is a limit on government loans, not total loans, and as a result this is instead intended to push us all towards private loans.

 

[jhamaican]

Yeah, keep drinking those facts and journalism, idiots! We trumpians will continue to believe his every lie. I'm sure those tax returns are right around the corner! I'm just sad that this tax bill will cost him such a fortune! Poor guy.

you sound like your still upset snowflake. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[Neopolymath]

Part of the function of government is to protect citizens from more powerful individuals and organizations who might try to coerce them into destructive decisions. That's why It is not reasonable to expect an 18 year old to protect themselves from predatory lenders offering infinity dollars non-dischargable loans.

BUT BUT I'm a libertarian and I got mine so F you bro

/s

 

[deleted480308]

Sure, but making it harder to repay loans by eliminating options that may have contributed to decision to pursue medical degree in the first place will likely further marginalize those of us not coming from wealthy or even middle-class backgrounds in medical school. Making a case that people who may not be able to otherwise pay back their loans should not be in medical school, to some extend, does exactly that.

Also, many of my peers feel uneasy about all the debt they have incurred and, I suspect, many would not have gone to medical school without an option to go back to their community and/or work in a lesser-compensated field.

Even I feel some pressure to choose private practice and serve the well-insured over academics seriving the poor and underserved, which is my current intention. If I knew the only way for me to pay back my loans without financial hardship is private practice, I would have thought longer and harder about whether medicine is right for me. From purely ethical standpoint, I don’t see a good justification to have this as a potential deterrent for students like me.

We all have to weigh our decisions given our priorities in life and our resources.....no one else should have to pay your loans just so you can feel more comfortable making decisions you want and that’s what you are asking for

 

[Greg'sLobos]

you sound like your still upset snowflake. Tell us how you really feel.

I have never voted for anyone other than a republican in my life. I'm a conservative. But please please tell me how you can still support this guy when the lies and divisiveness are so blatant? I am not trying to be a jerk at all I am genuinely curious.

 

[Greg'sLobos]

you sound like your still upset snowflake. Tell us how you really feel.

Oh, and also: you're*

 

[SunsFun]

We all have to weigh our decisions given our priorities in life and our resources.....no one else should have to pay your loans just so you can feel more comfortable making decisions you want and that’s what you are asking for

No. What I want is a path for any capable student to become a doctor that they want to be without incurring astronomical debt. Pslf isn’t perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

 

[GypsyHummus]

What?! You mean people are actually going to be responsible for the money that they take out?

All y'all complaining are over-reacting. Physicians make 200K+, even in primary care. Worst Case scenario your a PCP grossing 200K, Even if you took out 500K, you will be fine as long as you live like a student for 5 years. 200K after taxes is like 140k. Live off of 40K/year (like a majority of Americans), pay 100K/year, be debt fee in 6 years. Not difficult math. Feel sorry for the "debtal" (dental) students, doomed to a life of cooperate dentistry at 130K gross with 500K in debt.

 

[Ismet]

What?! You mean people are actually going to be responsible for the money that they take out?

All y'all complaining are over-reacting. Physicians make 200K+, even in primary care. Worst Case scenario your a PCP grossing 200K, Even if you took out 500K, you will be fine as long as you live like a student for 5 years. 200K after taxes is like 140k. Live off of 40K/year (like a majority of Americans), pay 100K/year, be debt fee in 6 years. Not difficult math. Feel sorry for the "debtal" (dental) students, doomed to a life of cooperate dentistry at 130K gross with 500K in debt.

You're fairly misinformed if you think that's the worst case scenario. The average starting salary for my field is ~$150,000. And I have ~$350,000 in debt that is only continuing to grow thanks to interest and not being able to pay off much on a resident salary.

 

[deleted480308]

No. What I want is a path for any capable student to become a doctor that they want to be without incurring astronomical debt. Pslf isn’t perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

pslf is actually asking your neighbors to pay your debt

You're fairly misinformed if you think that's the worst case scenario. The average starting salary for my field is ~$150,000. And I have ~$350,000 in debt that is only continuing to grow thanks to interest and not being able to pay off much on a resident salary.

but how is your decision the responsibility of your neighbors to pay?

 

[GypsyHummus]

Ok, so post taxes you are making what, 100K Family Practice/IM gen? Live off of 40K/year (Currently living off of 20K/year). Throw 60K at debt, be done in 7 years. Then you are debt free netting 100K/year! That's a crazy good salary! Most people never see that salary.

And thats only starting. 5 years out you'll be making 200K+

You're fairly misinformed if you think that's the worst case scenario. The average starting salary for my field is ~$150,000. And I have ~$350,000 in debt that is only continuing to grow thanks to interest and not being able to pay off much on a resident salary.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Because I was raised in a society that told me "sharing is care-ing"

pslf is actually asking your neighbors to pay your debt

but how is your decision the responsibility of your neighbors to pay?

 

[JP2740]

Sure, but making it harder to repay loans by eliminating options that may have contributed to decision to pursue medical degree in the first place will likely further marginalize those of us not coming from wealthy or even middle-class backgrounds in medical school. Making a case that people who may not be able to otherwise pay back their loans should not be in medical school, to some extend, does exactly that.

Also, many of my peers feel uneasy about all the debt they have incurred and, I suspect, many would not have gone to medical school without an option to go back to their community and/or work in a lesser-compensated field.

Even I feel some pressure to choose private practice and serve the well-insured over academics seriving the poor and underserved, which is my current intention. If I knew the only way for me to pay back my loans without financial hardship is private practice, I would have thought longer and harder about whether medicine is right for me. From purely ethical standpoint, I don’t see a good justification to have this as a potential deterrent for students like me.

Has anyone ever benefited from PSLF? My parents didn’t help me and my roommates parents didn’t help him with any costs and I couldn’t care less about the news. Yea would be sweet but no one I know made a decision to go to med school bc of PSLF. As a matter of fact, the popular advice and opinion out there was to not expect to get this because was a long shot to stick around.

 

[Ismet]

pslf is actually asking your neighbors to pay your debt

but how is your decision the responsibility of your neighbors to pay?

Please don't put words into my mouth. I said nothing about PSLF.

I didn't choose my school or choose my specialty or choose how I repay my loans because of PSLF. In fact I bank on it not being around.

Ok, so post taxes you are making what, 100K Family Practice/IM gen? Live off of 40K/year (Currently living off of 20K/year). Throw 60K at debt, be done in 7 years. Then you are debt free netting 100K/year! That's a crazy good salary! Most people never see that salary.

And thats only starting. 5 years out you'll be making 200K+

General Pediatrics doesn't make 200K+ on average. National average is still below 200K.

I'm not saying it isn't doable, because it certainly is. But not all doctors make a boatload of money relative to their debt load. And you're forgetting about interest. My debt has already increased significantly due to interest and I graduated a year and a half ago.

Has anyone ever benefited from PSLF? My parents didn’t help me and my roommates parents didn’t help him with any costs and I couldn’t care less about the news. Yea would be sweet but no one I know made a decision to go to med school bc of PSLF. As a matter of fact, the popular advice and opinion out there was to not expect to get this because was a long shot to stick around.

I believe the first people to be able to use PSLF would have applied within the last 2 months. Applications didn't open until September.

 

[Perrotfish]

Even if you took out 500K, you will be fine as long as you live like a student for 5 years. 200K after taxes is like 140k. Live off of 40K/year (like a majority of Americans), pay 100K/year, be debt fee in 6 years. Not difficult math. Feel sorry for the "debtal" (dental) students, doomed to a life of cooperate dentistry at 130K gross with 500K in debt.

Just an FYI, the math is a little more difficult than that. You are forgetting that the loans compound at 7% from the day you take them out, which more than doubles what you need to pay with post tax dollars. Right now under REPAYE they don't compound for the first 3 years but I think this new proposal changes that

A good rule of thumb is that you need to earn 3 dollara, pre tax, for ever dollar of student loans you take out for medical school and repay on a 10 year plan. So for an initial investment of 500K you would need to put 150K of pretax dollars directly into your student loans every year for 10 years. If you earn 200K you can expect to live off of 25K post tax dollars until you are 40.

 

[Perrotfish]

but how is your decision the responsibility of your neighbors to pay?

Because that's how democracy works. It's a team sport. We support each other in need, we help each other up, we defend each other from our enemies in times of war, and build a community together in times of peace. The freedom we enjoy is based on the assumption that we will choose to take responsibility not just for ourselves but for one another.

Autocrats throughout history have argued that democracy can't work, because people are too inherently selfish to actually work together without a strong hand to guide them. It seems like modern libertarians are working very hard to prove them right, at least for this time and place. If you see a drowning man and all you can offer is a snide comment about how he should have learned to swim then I don't know how to fix that.

 

[GypsyHummus]

If you go to a rural area, its not impossible to gross 300K+ either.

Its better than people are making it out to be. Plus, moonlighting is a thing.

Just an FYI, the math is a little more difficult than that. You are forgetting that the loans compound at 7% from the day you take them out, which more than doubles what you need to pay with post tax dollars. Right now under REPAYE they don't compound for the first 3 years but I think this new proposal changes that

A good rule of thumb is that you need to earn 3 dollara, pre tax, for ever dollar of student loans you take out for medical school and repay on a 10 year plan. So for an initial investment of 500K you would need to put 150K of pretax dollars directly into your student loans every year for 10 years. So if you earn 200K you can expect to live off of 25K post tax dollars with no government subsidies until you are 40.

 

[GypsyHummus]

And this worst case scenario is for FM and IM. Imagine as a Orthopod making gross 600K. What is that, like 370K? So live off of 70K and pay 300K/year, done in 3 if total bill is 500K +interest.

Considering applications are up across the spectrum, looks like things are Hunky Dory.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I said nothing about PSLF.

I didn't choose my school or choose my specialty or choose how I repay my loans because of PSLF. In fact I bank on it not being around.



General Pediatrics doesn't make 200K+ on average. National average is still below 200K.

I'm not saying it isn't doable, because it certainly is. But not all doctors make a boatload of money relative to their debt load. And you're forgetting about interest. My debt has already increased significantly due to interest and I graduated a year and a half ago.



I believe the first people to be able to use PSLF would have applied within the last 2 months. Applications didn't open until September.

 

[Ismet]

And this worst case scenario is for FM and IM. Imagine as a Orthopod making gross 600K. What is that, like 370K? So live off of 70K and pay 300K/year, done in 3 if total bill is 500K +interest.

Considering applications are up across the spectrum, looks like things are Hunky Dory.

What are you talking about? Of course subspecialties with high salaries are going to make more money and have an easier time paying off their loans. You brought up the example of a PCP. Pediatricians are PCP's. This is one of the reasons fewer people are going into primary care, the debt vs salary ratio is much more appealing in subspecialties.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Im talking about the ease of paying back student loans. Specialties should have no trouble, but even if you choose PCP, you can do it in 6 years.

What are you talking about? Of course subspecialties with high salaries are going to make more money and have an easier time paying off they're loans. You brought up the example of a PCP. Pediatricians are PCP's. This is one of the reasons fewer people are going into primary care, the debt vs salary ratio is much more appealing in subspecialties.

 

[deleted480308]

Because that's how democracy works. It's a team sport. We support each other in need, we help each other up, we defend each other from our enemies in times of war, and build a community together in times of peace. The freedom we enjoy is based on the assumption that we will choose to take responsibility not just for ourselves but for one another.

Autocrats throughout history have argued that democracy can't work, because people are too inherently selfish to actually work together without a strong hand to guide them. It seems like modern libertarians are working very hard to prove them right, at least for this time and place. If you see a drowning man and all you can offer is a snide comment about how he should have learned to swim then I don't know how to fix that.

I’m saying 100% that you don’t get to take risks with my money. Your risks are yours.

You want that degree that’s crazy expensive that doesn’t have a good roi? Cool. But don’t expect me to chip in, particularly when the expectation that I bail you out justs increases the amount we have to bail you out of

 

[softball2344]

You're fairly misinformed if you think that's the worst case scenario. The average starting salary for my field is ~$150,000. And I have ~$350,000 in debt that is only continuing to grow thanks to interest and not being able to pay off much on a resident salary.

Isn’t there a payment plan now where you can get some of the interest paid for three years? Gosh that’s a low stating salary I’m shocked..

 

[Perrotfish]

Isn’t there a payment plan now where you can get some of the interest paid for three years? Gosh that’s a low stating salary I’m shocked..

Pediatrics is the lowest paid specialty, and it also has the widest (percentage) difference between starting and midcareer salary. And even then you can usually break 200K if you are willing to work for a private practice HMO and/or take nursery call.

 

[pstrick]

I’m saying 100% that you don’t get to take risks with my money. Your risks are yours.

You want that degree that’s crazy expensive that doesn’t have a good roi? Cool. But don’t expect me to chip in, particularly when the expectation that I bail you out justs increases the amount we have to bail you out of

You sound like the kind of guy that invests in bitcoin.

 

[kb1900]

You sound like the kind of guy that invests in bitcoin.

Whats wrong with that? you jelly

 

[Neopolymath]

I’m saying 100% that you don’t get to take risks with my money. Your risks are yours.

You want that degree that’s crazy expensive that doesn’t have a good roi? Cool. But don’t expect me to chip in, particularly when the expectation that I bail you out justs increases the amount we have to bail you out of

You always post in these threads with your libertarian absurdity. We get it dude. You want the benefits of America, but only the ones you agree with. Go move to an island so you aren't such a hypocrite. It's people like you who create the need for subsidies in the first place.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Yeah I agree, how dare he think that people should have personal responsibility. What absurdity. Idk about you, but when I make a financially bad decision, I expect people to foot the bill.

You always post in these threads with your libertarian absurdity. We get it dude. You want the benefits of America, but only the ones you agree with. Go move to an island so you aren't such a hypocrite. It's people like you who create the need for subsidies in the first place.

 

[68PGunner]

Yeah I agree, how dare he think that people should have personal responsibility. What absurdity. Idk about you, but when I make a financially bad decision, I expect people to foot the bill.

Sharing is caring. Here, have some of my debt. It’s good for you.

 

[SunsFun]

Yeah I agree, how dare he think that people should have personal responsibility. What absurdity. Idk about you, but when I make a financially bad decision, I expect people to foot the bill.

For many of us choosing this profession was about a lot more than maximizing the investment value.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Same with the engineer who took out student loans, yet he’s not demanding people foot the bill for his/her education.

Nobody put a gun to your head and said “TAKE OUT THE MONEY, RIGHT NOW!!” Or “you must go to medical school!!!” You could have chosen a diff profession

you chose this path, now for good or ill, you must deal with the consequences. There is a lot of good, just deal with the bad

For many of us choosing this profession was about a lot more than maximizing the investment value.

 

[pstrick]

Whats wrong with that? you jelly

Jealous of what?
It's just a pejorative way of saying he seems like a hard line libertarian.

 

[SunsFun]

Same with the engineer who took out student loans, yet he’s not demanding people foot the bill for his/her education.

Nobody put a gun to your head and said “TAKE OUT THE MONEY, RIGHT NOW!!” Or “you must go to medical school!!!” You could have chosen a diff profession

you chose this path, now for good or ill, you must deal with the consequences. There is a lot of good, just deal with the bad

I consider this to be more than just a job like serving hamburgers. I didn’t choose my field for work hours, pay, or lifestyle it affords. I didn’t purely rely on my love for the actual job either. It was more about making a difference in a way that aligned with my skills and personal values. And I firmly believe that nobody should be turned away or disincentivized from becoming a doctor, especially PCP or academician, because of tuition.

 

[GypsyHummus]

There is a price to be paid for being a doctor, just like there is a price to be paid for being an entrepreneur. To think otherwise is to dilute oneself. You don’t get something in this world for nothing.

It’s just anouther hoop to jump through and I see no problem in tuition. The market dictates goods and services. If tuition is so high for medical school that it makes someone uncomfortable, don’t go.

Everyone has a choice. The people who go 400k in debt made their choice.

I consider this to be more than just a job like serving hamburgers. I didn’t choose my field for work hours, pay, or lifestyle it affords. I didn’t purely rely on my love for the actual job either. It was more about making a difference in a way that aligned with my skills and personal values. And I firmly believe that nobody should be turned away or disincentivized from becoming a doctor, especially PCP or academician, because of tuition.

 

[deleted480308]

You always post in these threads with your libertarian absurdity. We get it dude. You want the benefits of America, but only the ones you agree with. Go move to an island so you aren't such a hypocrite. It's people like you who create the need for subsidies in the first place.

I don’t want any subsidies to exist at all, that does not make their existence my fault

Jealous of what?
It's just a pejorative way of saying he seems like a hard line libertarian.

”it’s a pejorative way of calling him awesome”

I consider this to be more than just a job like serving hamburgers. I didn’t choose my field for work hours, pay, or lifestyle it affords. I didn’t purely rely on my love for the actual job either. It was more about making a difference in a way that aligned with my skills and personal values. And I firmly believe that nobody should be turned away or disincentivized from becoming a doctor, especially PCP or academician, because of tuition.

if no one should have to pay, start a school and don’t demand payment

Or start a scholarship fund

 

[SunsFun]

There is a price to be paid for being a doctor, just like there is a price to be paid for being an entrepreneur. To think otherwise is to dilute oneself. You don’t get something in this world for nothing.

It’s just anouther hoop to jump through and I see no problem in tuition. The market dictates goods and services. If tuition is so high for medical school that it makes someone uncomfortable, don’t go.

Everyone has a choice. The people who go 400k in debt made their choice.

Price to be paid to be a doctor is not measured in money. Tuition is a bigger hurdle for people from low-income families. Do you think it’s okay to have a barrier that makes it more difficult for people from underserved backgrounds to attend medical school?

 

[SunsFun]

I don’t want any subsidies to exist at all, that does not make their existence my fault
”it’s a pejorative way of calling him awesome”

if no one should have to pay, start a school and don’t demand payment

Or start a scholarship fund

I’d prefer to start a revolution and redistribute the wealth more equally. We could solve many of these problems once and for all.

 

[deleted480308]

I’d prefer to start a revolution and redistribute the wealth more equally. We could solve many of these problems once and for all.

You could do that and we would still have huge inequality within a few years. Some people just make better financial decisions than others

 

[deleted480308]

Price to be paid to be a doctor is not measured in money. Tuition is a bigger hurdle for people from low-income families. Do you think it’s okay to have a barrier that makes it more difficult for people from underserved backgrounds to attend medical school?

If that barrier is the actual cost? Yes

 

[softball2344]

Pediatrics is the lowest paid specialty, and it also has the widest (percentage) difference between starting and midcareer salary. And even then you can usually break 200K if you are willing to work for a private practice HMO and/or take nursery call.

Not that I plan on going into peds but that's good to hear... even if I have $350,000 of debt after residency, and make $200k let's say in CA, that's $128,000/yr after taxes - 48k/yr on a 10-yr plan = ~$80k to work with after taxes/loans. That doesn't sound that bad?

 

[softball2344]

Price to be paid to be a doctor is not measured in money. Tuition is a bigger hurdle for people from low-income families. Do you think it’s okay to have a barrier that makes it more difficult for people from underserved backgrounds to attend medical school?

They get the most aid it's the middle class kids who have it the worst...

 

[Neopolymath]

I don’t want any subsidies to exist at all, that does not make their existence my fault

Yes it does because you have a disconnect with reality in so far that you will not acknowledge subsidies and regulation are a necessary evil particularly because people like you would send us back to isolated villages and huts if you had your way. If society needs something as a whole but the market doesn't want to provide it for whatever reason, we have to give it a nudge. Primary care is a great example.

 

[deleted480308]

Yes it does because you have a disconnect with reality in so far that you will not acknowledge subsidies and regulation are a necessary evil particularly because people like you would send us back to isolated villages and huts if you had your way. If society needs something as a whole but the market doesn't want to provide it for whatever reason, we have to give it a nudge. Primary care is a great example.

The private market would absolutely provide primary care, the private matket will provide literally almost anything people will pay for....and we were far more than isolated huts before we started a welfare state

 

[SunsFun]

If that barrier is the actual cost? Yes

At this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I am sure you understand my ethical reasons to support my point of view.

I do have respect for consistency of your idealogical arguments and willingness to admit to less-than-popular viewpoint (at least on this subforum).

 

[SunsFun]

They get the most aid it's the middle class kids who have it the worst...

You do realize that if the value of that aid is less than what they can afford anyway, it doesn’t properly address the disparity.

And I never saw the numbers on actual aid provided that you probably have in support of such a bold claim.

 

[SunsFun]

You could do that and we would still have huge inequality within a few years. Some people just make better financial decisions than others

I am just curious, what keeps you going? What’s your purpose, given how little faith in humanity you seem to have?

Sorry for being a bit personal and asking tangential questions. I was always interested in how pure libertarians justify their existence.

 

[JP2740]

I am just curious, what keeps you going? What’s your purpose, given how little faith in humanity you seem to have?

Sorry for being a bit personal and asking tangential questions. I was always interested in how pure libertarians justify their existence.

Not mah prezidant!!

 

[JP2740]

Price to be paid to be a doctor is not measured in money. Tuition is a bigger hurdle for people from low-income families. Do you think it’s okay to have a barrier that makes it more difficult for people from underserved backgrounds to attend medical school?

Most people I know had no assistance from their family and not a single one of them are talking about or caring about this

 

[LongDucDong]

Price to be paid to be a doctor is not measured in money. Tuition is a bigger hurdle for people from low-income families. Do you think it’s okay to have a barrier that makes it more difficult for people from underserved backgrounds to attend medical school?

That's not true. If your parents make a million dollars a year, but are unwilling to help you pay for it, then tuition is just as big of a hurdle for you as it is for someone who comes from a low income family. This is not about rich vs poor, don't try to push that narrative. Plenty of people, me included, will be paying for medical school 100% with loans. The earning potential of becoming a doctor is still worth it, though, and that's why I decided to go. And, I would be out of my mind to expect to have a portion of that tuition subsidized by the rest of society. It's absurd. If the debt wasn't worth it, then I wouldn't have entered medical school. Expecting some other person to pay my debt while my dreams are realized is not only a slap in the face, its unsustainable. Should every single profession then be subsidized? If everyone is subsidizing every one else, then wouldn't we just all be better off paying for our own choices?