BU med student killer thread?

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It sounds like the OP is more interested in trying to convince people not to attend BU (perhaps to improve their own chances?). If you want to try to slander a school, this is a very tasteless way to do so.

I agree. I seem to remember more than one account being banned because the owner was obsessed with trashing BU with criticisms that current BU students felt were exaggerated or untrue. OP's low thread count and emphasis on the "pressure cooker" environment is like deja vu.

If anything it's a failure of screening, not learning environment, but that doesn't mean someone could have picked up on this guys pathology during an interview. In fact, sociopaths may even excel at the medical application process. They have decreased anxiety, especially in interpersonal settings like interviews, are narcissistic, which makes self-promotion much less awkward, can be charming, and are great liars. As long as you don't test their impulse control, they could put together one hell of an interview.
 
BU let me know that I was rejected less than two weeks after receiving my secondary application. I find it hard to believe that they even had a chance to LOOK at my application in that time when most schools took at least that long just to log my secondary application in their records. Pure speculation, but I would guess that BU is a school that sorts applicants by the numbers.

Please lets not turn this into a BU bashing thread.

If you want to express your frustration at not gettting into a particular school, do it in the Pre-allo forums.
 
I hope you see the jump in logic you took here.


No idea where you got that impression. I was just pointing out that we live in the United States of America. You know, where burden of proof falls on the prosecution. Where you are innocent until proven guilty.

I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm trying to defend a killer. As friends of someone who was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and later acquitted of all charges, I just am saying don't be so quick to jump to assumptions.

Yep, I'm sure he had a good legitimate reason to be at the sites of all three robberies/murders. He was probably just staying at the hotels... which were in the same city where he lived... or something.
 
So, let me get this straight. You are a doctor and you think a medical school environment can turn someone into a serial killer?

Wow, THAT actually does concern me about the quality of education at BU, if you actually graduated from there.

Please stop, you are embarrassing yourself.

Okay, I had to seriously LOL at this because its so true.

I wasnt concerned about BU creating a killer army of pyscho med students but am now concerned about their ability to think analytically and critically about such major concepts as "cause and effect"...
 
I agree with other posters above, things like this reflect that the medical admissions selection isn't remotely close to perfect. If a murderer can get through, anything else can get through. This news has an impact on all medical students. For starters, makes me assume and take things for granted a little bit less.

Hahaha, do people really think that medical school admission is so rigorous of a test of character that people with certain personality types can't get in? All it really takes are good grades, a good MCAT, ECs that aren't hard to come by for anyone, and LORs from people that can evaluate you in a professional enviornment, but know next to nothing about your personal life.

One hour they spent looking at your paper work, an hour or two spent talking with a couple people from adcoms, and you think that would keep out murderers, rapists, and whoever else might want to go to medical school? I'm sorry, but that's being naive.
 
Fair enough.

It just strikes me as ironic that this is one of the first years that many schools are instituting criminal background checks. Of course many schools sort applications by the numbers. The application process is demanding and students are expected to have high GPAs and MCATs. It's much harder to score applicants on social qualities like empathy, but even so, only a small fraction of schools search criminal records as part of the admissions process. I also find it sad that the alleged killer's motives appeared to be at least partially financial.

Of course, we do not hear (or care) nearly as much about killers in JD, MBA, MFA, PhD etc. programs even though they surely exist. There is added drama when an alleged killer is training to care for others. But I would argue that there is also an added burden on the schools to thoroughly examine applicants and take measures to prevent the very students they are training to become some of the most trusted members of society from taking advantage of some of the most vulnerable.
 
BU let me know that I was rejected less than two weeks after receiving my secondary application. I find it hard to believe that they even had a chance to LOOK at my application in that time when most schools took at least that long just to log my secondary application in their records. Pure speculation, but I would guess that BU is a school that sorts applicants by the numbers.

I got an interview at BU (loved the school btw.) and have way below average numbers...hence I doubt they screen strictly by numbers. But that's just my take on it.
 
lol...now there is 3 threads on this I think
 
I got an interview at BU (loved the school btw.) and have way below average numbers...hence I doubt they screen strictly by numbers. But that's just my take on it.

Thanks for the info Siverhideo1985. That's one of the things I appreciate about SDN, that people's stories can help illuminate a somewhat secretive process. Shows that one can't generalize from a single (plus a few friends) data-point(s).
 
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i know this isn't the "criminal science forums", but I thought I'd share what "serial killer" actually means. and by share, i mean C&P from Wikipedia:

A serial killer is a person who murders usually three or more people over a period of more than 30 days with a "cooling off" period between each murder, whose motivation for killing is largely based on psychological gratification.

thus, 1 murder != serial killer

i agree the concept of BU's training creating unstable minds enough to kill is pretty ridiculous, but I dont' agree with suggesting that two data points doesn't warrant an investigation when you're talking about murder. do we want enough data points until it's statistically significant?

we already know that med students are more likely to commit suicide, right? for all we know, med students all over the country are also more likely to commit murder. Remember that sketchy case of attempted murder in the osteopathic school in NJ?
 
I got an interview at BU (loved the school btw.) and have way below average numbers...hence I doubt they screen strictly by numbers. But that's just my take on it.

BU screens out people based on high numbers. A classmate of mine said that last cycle his interviewer straight up told him if his MCAT was one point higher he would have gotten rejected preinterview.
 
BU screens out people based on high numbers. A classmate of mine said that last cycle his interviewer straight up told him if his MCAT was one point higher he would have gotten rejected preinterview.

There ya go. Another take on the process. In the end its hard to predict anything with BU.
 
i




we already know that med students are more likely to commit suicide, right? for all we know, med students all over the country are also more likely to commit murder. Remember that sketchy case of attempted murder in the osteopathic school in NJ?

Thats a bit of a leap
 
thus, 1 murder != serial killer

Well, the first attack was on April 10th, and the alleged killer was captured yesterday, April 20th. So 1 murder in 10 days is roughly on target.

I do agree that this case doesn't seem like your usual serial killer fare, however. They seem to have been motivated by money, not explicitly pleasure in the act. However, the killer did strike again after murdering someone. Hard to not push the sociopath angle there, rather than burglary gone wrong.
 
let me guess,

he wanted to do surgery or ...... pathology....:scared::scared:

but he looks more like a surgeon that a pathologist.
 
I know the pressure is great.. But its not worth going Beserk!! And lossing it all! :scared:

i think the story said that the police believe MONEY/robery was the motivation.
 
let me guess,

he wanted to do surgery or ...... pathology....:scared::scared:

but he looks more like a surgeon that a pathologist.

from the NYtimes:

"The student charged with the crimes, Philip Markoff, was arrested on Monday after detectives tracked him down using records of cell phone conversations he had had with the victims and through e-mails he sent to them from his apartment in Quincy, prosecutors said."

Definitely a surgeon.
 
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Yeah, maybe he is a "serial self defender." Uh, usually someone who kills in self defense calls the police to report the crime. Three plus times.

Please. I understand that he is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but let's not be silly.

As of now I don't think he's been charged in multiple homicides. That may change. But you are jumping ahead of the evidence to call him a "serial" anything. It looks pretty bad though.
 
You're entitled to your own opinion, but I feel that my perception of BU environment is correct. With how much change our class has accomplished this year by going to the faculty, it's hard to believe that your "concerns" were just ignored.

This is why you're best to speak for yourself. There are a whole slew individuals @ BUSM (currently) that have the issues CaptainProton describes. Many go without saying anything at all, and pretending like everything's okay- b/c folks like you essentially discredit the experiences of everyone who's not smooth sailing. You're perception of BU's enviro is only correct in that it's yours. It is in no way representative of the student body as a whole. Know that. BU has serious issues with student mental/social health and half of the things that you do now are as a result of ppl complaining about those said issues.

Lunches with Advisors
Assigned study groups
Assigned peer mentors
Student Support Services
Anonymous therapy w/ A. Fitzgerald

This stuff didn't come out the blue. You can turn a blind eye and continue to sail on ignorant of what's happening around you- but it's a crazy problem.
 
Well, the first attack was on April 10th, and the alleged killer was captured yesterday, April 20th. So 1 murder in 10 days is roughly on target.

I do agree that this case doesn't seem like your usual serial killer fare, however. They seem to have been motivated by money, not explicitly pleasure in the act. However, the killer did strike again after murdering someone. Hard to not push the sociopath angle there, rather than burglary gone wrong.

Unless I'm mistaken, he only killed 1 person according to the news sources I'm reading. He was involved in robberies previously.
 
I agree. I seem to remember more than one account being banned because the owner was obsessed with trashing BU with criticisms that current BU students felt were exaggerated or untrue. OP's low thread count and emphasis on the "pressure cooker" environment is like deja vu.

If anything it's a failure of screening, not learning environment, but that doesn't mean someone could have picked up on this guys pathology during an interview. In fact, sociopaths may even excel at the medical application process. They have decreased anxiety, especially in interpersonal settings like interviews, are narcissistic, which makes self-promotion much less awkward, can be charming, and are great liars. As long as you don't test their impulse control, they could put together one hell of an interview.

I agree- I wonder what "mental screening" would accomplish anyway- given that should the results come out that either you are (or have some pre-disposition to being) depressive/psychotic/sociopathic- can that information even legally be shared and used to deny matriculation?

I wouldn't bash BU's screening process, and though I disagree that everything is "peachy" in terms of student relations- I don't feel that it's BU's fault for not catching the alleged killer before acceptance. Nor do I feel like BU's environment pushed my classmate to kill. You have to already have that capacity in you to commit murder.
 
Lunches with Advisors
Assigned study groups
Assigned peer mentors
Student Support Services
Anonymous therapy w/ A. Fitzgerald

my school has group lunches with advisors, assigned peer mentors (for 1st years), student support services (run by students), and we have a psychologist too.

no murders that I am aware of...no ominous tone meant.

my take on this case is that it was a robbery gone wrong, thus you didn't really need a pre-determined "capacity to commit murder" per se. thus mental screening may not have helped at all, unless it somehow could deduce that he apparently had a gambling problem, which looks like was what drove him to commit armed robberies.
 
This is why you're best to speak for yourself. There are a whole slew individuals @ BUSM (currently) that have the issues CaptainProton describes. Many go without saying anything at all, and pretending like everything's okay- b/c folks like you essentially discredit the experiences of everyone who's not smooth sailing. You're perception of BU's enviro is only correct in that it's yours. It is in no way representative of the student body as a whole. Know that. BU has serious issues with student mental/social health and half of the things that you do now are as a result of ppl complaining about those said issues.

Lunches with Advisors
Assigned study groups
Assigned peer mentors
Student Support Services
Anonymous therapy w/ A. Fitzgerald

This stuff didn't come out the blue. You can turn a blind eye and continue to sail on ignorant of what's happening around you- but it's a crazy problem.

I never said I'm speaking for everyone else at BU. I'm speaking for myself and other classmates that I have talked to about this issue. I don't want to discredit any issues that occur at BU, especially since it is so expensive and I believe that medical school environment should be as supportive as possible since it is so difficult. I'm sure the stuff offered now isn't coming out of the blue, but it is there now, no? Hopefully, people who are having trouble will take up the offer that BU is giving out now, and for those that experienced these problems back when BU didn't offer these services, I'm sorry and I hope that you're experiencing a much better environment now.
 
BU admission must suck! They should be embarrassed for accepting this guy
 
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Unless I'm mistaken, he only killed 1 person according to the news sources I'm reading. He was involved in robberies previously.

You can't say ONLY one, when it comes to another human being's life
 
my school has group lunches with advisors, assigned peer mentors (for 1st years), student support services (run by students), and we have a psychologist too.

no murders that I am aware of...no ominous tone meant.

my take on this case is that it was a robbery gone wrong, thus you didn't really need a pre-determined "capacity to commit murder" per se. thus mental screening may not have helped at all, unless it somehow could deduce that he apparently had a gambling problem, which looks like was what drove him to commit armed robberies.

Context much? I listed those things that came about as a result of issues with student mental/emotional health. I was referring to the social atmosphere that predicated the need for such services in the first place. I don't however, correlate my classmates actions with BU's environment (I also explicitly said this in a subsequent post) but I don't think CaptainProton's observations are irrelevant or unfounded.

I never said I'm speaking for everyone else at BU. I'm speaking for myself and other classmates that I have talked to about this issue. I don't want to discredit any issues that occur at BU, especially since it is so expensive and I believe that medical school environment should be as supportive as possible since it is so difficult. I'm sure the stuff offered now isn't coming out of the blue, but it is there now, no? Hopefully, people who are having trouble will take up the offer that BU is giving out now, and for those that experienced these problems back when BU didn't offer these services, I'm sorry and I hope that you're experiencing a much better environment now.

You're absolutely right, it's a great step that the services are provided. Unfortunately the nature of the med school (and really many med schools- not just BU) conflicts with seeking such help. There's a stigma both perceived and real. Furthermore, a lot of these services are formally on the books so that BU has a documented "active" response to meet the needs/demands of students. In some instances, they do not actually provide the sort of support/help that they have listed as available to students (or it's not avail. in the way that it's described). I have more than a few specific examples but I won't get into detail here. I too, hope our BU alums are also in a better environment now.
 
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You can't blame the school. People do crazy things, its just an unfortunate fact of life.
 
I REALLY hope this guy actually did it. I can count how many times this has been brought up to me today, or how many websites have his picture on them. If he's falsely accused he might easily take the record for the most screwed person in human history.
 
I REALLY hope this guy actually did it. I can count how many times this has been brought up to me today, or how many websites have his picture on them. If he's falsely accused he might easily take the record for the most screwed person in human history.


This is a Day 1 story, post-arrest. It's watercooler talk...not on the order of Richard Jewell or Steven Hatfill.
 
As someone who has experienced both BU med (I was in the GMS program there) and my current med school... I don't feel the issues suggested in the above postings are unique to BU. I actually feel that BU had AMAZING supportive, wonderful faculty who made a lot of effort to listen to students. For example, my current school has nothing like the student-faculty committees at BU that serve to address current problems and help make the courses run more smoothly for students. To blame the tragedy that happened on BU itself is pretty nuts to me. To blame it on med school in general is much more understandable.. though doesn't it just come down to the type of person this guy is (if he did it)?
 
I hope you see the jump in logic you took here.


No idea where you got that impression. I was just pointing out that we live in the United States of America. You know, where burden of proof falls on the prosecution. Where you are innocent until proven guilty.

I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm trying to defend a killer. As friends of someone who was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and later acquitted of all charges, I just am saying don't be so quick to jump to assumptions.
Exactly. Anybody remember a few lacrosse players from Duke? Those guys were crucified in the media, slandered by the prosecutor, and then found completely innocent.
 
Yep, I'm sure he had a good legitimate reason to be at the sites of all three robberies/murders. He was probably just staying at the hotels... which were in the same city where he lived... or something.
Remember when this guy killed his wife?

harrison_ford_fugitive.jpg
 
Maybe he went psycho studying for step I.
 
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He was a DO.

Maybe that explains his mandible nerve pinch wrestling move (mandible claw) later used by Mick Foley. :laugh:

Good God there is a lot of random stuff to learn from wiki....... also didn't realize that F. Lee Bailey was his defense atty during his retrial.
 
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2009/04/22/med_school_colleagues_shun_media/

Though it's common sense I think often we forget that everything we write on this forum is public information.

After a flurry of comments on a national online forum for student doctors, one person identified as a Boston University School of Medicine student urged others to tone down their messages about the suspect and the school."Guys, please be sensitive with your comments at this time," he wrote. "It's not an easy time for us at BU right now."

Another person who posted, self-described in the online forum as a BU student, defended the medical school against critics of its interviewing process and competitive atmosphere.

"Everyone . . . trying to somehow blame BU - either its admissions screening or its environment - [is] just being silly," the person wrote. "This kid could have attended any school. Please."
It's disgusting that the media badgered BU med students during exam week looking for juicy details, let's not give them any more ammo by posting details here. I feel bad already for contributing to these threads. Just a heads up.
 
You can't say ONLY one, when it comes to another human being's life

Yes you actually HAVE to say only one to counter the "serial killer" claims on this thread. Nobody was minimizing human life -- they were pointing out that the law and society in fact do consider someone who kills repeatedly worse than someone who only kills once. This dude has only been charged with a single homicide at this juncture. And convicted of none. So there is no basis for alleging serial killer (at least yet).
 
I think the media is latching on to this story for 2 reasons:

1. It tarnishes a trusted profession. To think a doctor (even tho he's a med student) could kill someone unnerves the public's trust in physicians and is therefore sensational.
2. Should this man be found guilty, he has a striking resemblance to Dostoyevksy's Raskolnikov (Crime and Punishment). Perfect story. Modern Twist. Lots of papers sold/rating increased. Why re-invent the wheel?

About the admissions process/stress of medical school:
A certain degree of narcisism and a lot of perfectionism is needed to become a physician. However, we hope that enough moral teaching has occured in childhood to prevent people from comitting such crimes.
 
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2009/04/22/med_school_colleagues_shun_media/

Though it's common sense I think often we forget that everything we write on this forum is public information.

It's disgusting that the media badgered BU med students during exam week looking for juicy details, let's not give them any more ammo by posting details here. I feel bad already for contributing to these threads. Just a heads up.


Ugh. This is pathetic reporting that should never get past the editor. Quoting an anonymous internet forum as part of the story since your being stonewalled by the institution is pretty lazy.
 
I think the media is latching on to this story for 2 reasons:

1. It tarnishes a trusted profession. To think a doctor (even tho he's a med student) could kill someone unnerves the public's trust in physicians and is therefore sensational.
2. Should this man be found guilty, he has a striking resemblance to Dostoyevksy's Raskolnikov (Crime and Punishment). Perfect story. Modern Twist. Lots of papers sold/rating increased. Why re-invent the wheel?

About the admissions process/stress of medical school:
A certain degree of narcisism and a lot of perfectionism is needed to become a physician. However, we hope that enough moral teaching has occured in childhood to prevent people from comitting such crimes.

Not really. The media had already latched onto this story before he was a suspect/arrested. It's the whole "Oh my God! Craigslist is dangerous!" stupidity that the MSM likes to do with any new technology even though craiglist is just an electronic bullitin board / classified ad.
 
One thing I find funny is that people are shocked he did this because he was a medical student(not anyone here, but people that discuss this matter in person). It's not like because he was in medical school, he had 0% ability to pull it off...

If they said a 22-year old grad student, then people might not get worked up about it.
 
Here is an odd article I saw on the Boston Globe site:

Behind 'perfect life,' a darker side

Ex-lab partner details Markoff mood swings


By most accounts, Philip Markoff's life had all the hallmarks of a solid middle-class existence. He grew up in upstate New York, where his father was a dentist, his mother worked in a casino, and he played basketball with his brother in the driveway. High school acquaintances said he was a smart, if slightly nerdy, student who excelled in science, made the honor roll, and liked to bowl.
But a lab partner who worked closely with Markoff at Boston University School of Medicine in recent years said Markoff was troubled by profound mood swings. He came to class sometimes in seemingly intractable depressions, which worried Tiffany B. Montgomery to the point that she considered alerting school counselors that he might be suicidal.
Montgomery said she is "not even remotely surprised" that authorities have charged Markoff with the murder of Julissa Brisman, who advertised on the "erotic services" section on Craigslist. "He just wasn't right in the head, and I knew it, and probably other people did, too," said Montgomery, 26, who spent hours with him each day in the lab.
"My friends from the lab group have confirmed that 'you weren't the only one feeling that way,' " she said. "I got the impression he was really disturbed."
Montgomery, who dropped out of medical school last February because of financial problems, said Markoff's mood swings alarmed her.
"One day, he'd be warm and friendly and smiling," said Montgomery, who now works as a biotech consultant in Boston. "And the next day you'd see him and the clouds had rolled in. And you'd say to yourself, 'This is the 50 percent of the week when it's the upset, brooding Phil, and not the smiling happy Phil.' "
Still, in the outlines of Markoff's life, there was little to suggest the man described by police as a violent predator who looked for women on Craigslist, bound them with plastic ties, and robbed them at gunpoint. Markoff seemed to have the "perfect life," in the words of one friend: he was the small-town boy gone to the city for medical school, engaged to the girlfriend he had been dating since college, and planning a wedding on the Jersey shore in August. He had no criminal record and just one driving violation in Massachusetts, where he was cited for failing to stop in Roxbury in April 2008, authorities said.
Investigators have raised the possibility that Markoff had a gambling problem that may have motivated his alleged crimes. They based the theory, in part, on the fact, they say, that Markoff and his fiancee, Megan McAllister, were driving to Foxwoods Resort Casino in Connecticut when they were stopped on the highway in Walpole Monday.
Markoff's high school friends in Sherrill, N.Y., a hamlet east of Syracuse, said he liked to play "penny poker" and may have gambled occasionally at Turning Stone Resort and Casino in nearby Verona, where his mother worked in the gift shop. In his high school yearbook, Markoff boasted of his gambling prowess, saying: "I bequeath my poker playing skills to Andy Finley, so he won't lose his dad's house." In his senior year at the State University of New York at Albany, friends said, he played poker three or four times a week but not for money.
"There was nothing that really stood out about him; he was just, like, there," said Joe Coe, 23, who spent time with Markoff in Coe's dorm room at SUNY Albany. He described Markoff as an "average guy" with conservative politics. "Occasionally he was funny, occasionally he was loud, but there was no defining characteristic."
Markoff's grandfather, Jerome, a lawyer in Maryland, said his grandson is innocent.
"This is not my grandson," Jerome Markoff said. "I know my grandson. I hate to see a rush to judgment. I hate to see it.
"He's a wonderful boy, just absolutely wonderful, and couldn't be better," he added. "I'm proud of him and proud of his abilities as a medical student. He always wanted to be a doctor."
Matthew Paulini, who knew Markoff at Vernon-Verona-Sherrill High School, recalled "a pretty sociable and pretty smart guy" who liked to crack jokes and "shoot the breeze."
"The closest thing he would ever get to getting angry was everyday stuff, like we'd be on the bowling team and he'd go to pick up a spare and he'd be kind of angry if he missed, but it was never anything violent," Paulini said.
After graduating from high school in 2004, Markoff roomed with Ryan Meikle during freshman orientation week, and the two later took chemistry and biology classes together. Markoff "might have been a little bit of a perfectionist," in his studies, Meikle said.
"I thought he was a little geeky, but he did have a social life and he went out to bars," Meikle said. In 2005, Markoff's sophomore year, Markoff met McAllister, a senior, in an emergency room near campus where they volunteered.
Markoff graduated with a biology degree in 2007, and enrolled in medical school. He lived for a time on the first floor of an apartment building in Dorchester before moving to Quincy with McAllister in July, neighbors in Dorchester said.
In November 2007, before an important exam, Markoff told Montgomery, his lab partner at the time, that he had spent the weekend visiting his girlfriend in New Jersey and had been arguing with her. Montgomery was surprised to hear he had a girlfriend.
"Up until that point, he'd never even mentioned her," she said. "I met him in August, and we're here in November, and this is the first time he's mentioned this woman."
She said that despite the hours they spent together, she and Markoff never became close. Markoff would come to lab and put his head on the desk for 10 minutes. He "would talk when spoken to but wouldn't open up conversations," she said.
"Everybody's right when they say he was nice," she said. "He was nice. But he was definitely strange, and he was strange in a dark way."
Maria Cramer of the Globe staff contributed to this report. Michael Levenson can be reached at [email protected]

Very sad that someone seems to have a seen a problem.
 
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