Burn out and apathy

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Wonderfalls

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Hi all,
New to the forum. I'm sorry if this comes off as ranting but I need to say this somewhere and I can't talk to anyone in my program about it.

I'm halfway through my second year of a clinical psych PhD program and I'm so tired of it. I still enjoy psych a lot and I like learning about it, enjoy the clinical aspects of the program, but the research side is killing me. I am so uninterested in my thesis topic and all I feel all the time is stress. I can't sleep, I can't enjoy myself sometimes because I keep feeling tremendous anxiety about the work I'm not doing.

This semester has just been tough because I've come to realize that my adviser and I are not compatible. I knew from the start he was more hands-off, but I didn't realize how completely uninvolved he would be. I wish he would set more structure and expectations for me but he is so busy with grants and other projects that it doesn't seem plausible. Also, as dumb as this sounds, I honestly feel that he will judge me for asking him for help. He is pretty critical and is bad at hiding when he's disappointed with you, and it's kept me from going to him already.

He is also teaching one of my courses this semester and that has been incredibly stressful. I feel like I'm not cut out for the methodology and stringent research side of things and part of it is that my adviser is very accomplished in those regards and so expects a lot. I just feel like I'm letting people down all the time by not being the best in every area of the program, and it's so emotionally draining. I have taken to procrastinating and avoiding my work, and I don't know how to re-motivate myself. I just don't care about doing well in classes or in research. It almost feels like I'm trying to do badly so they'll just kick me out...

Has anyone else felt like this? What can I do? Quitting grad school really is not an option. I am well-funded, my family expects me to finish, and honestly, I'm not brave enough to just quit. I feel guilty for being so miserable when I've got things pretty good (funding, love the city I'm in, really enjoy clinical work) but I don't know what to do.
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Thanks for the reply, Rivi. I guess it just helps to hear that people have experienced the same thing and I'm not taking crazy pills or something. I think you're also right about me needing to become more assertive and dealing with personal insecurities. Hopefully, I'll get more comfortable with my role and my abilities as time goes on.

That video was great too haha. I guess most grad students go through the same hardships; I just needed some perspective!
 
Without a doubt, grad school was the darkest time in my life. You mention quitting, but typically it isn't a great option because most clinical doctoral programs leave you with an unlicensable master's. So it isn't like you can just quit and go out and do clinical work.

Can you switch advisors? I left my master's advisor and that was helpful (although it didn't completely solve the problem). Once I decided that I was going to switch my career goals to a clinical rather than academic career, I decided that I didn't need to be affiliated with a big shot publishing super-star. I ended up working with an advisor who was winding down toward retirement and who did not have a ton of expertise in my dissertation area. However, he was brilliant in his own way and cared much more about my success than about furthering his own career.

Good luck,
Dr. E
 
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Unfortunately it seems like uninvolved advisers are the norm, so pushing them for attention seems to be the only option. That means your decision not to go to him for help is really holding you back. View him as a resource to help you get your milestones accomplished. If he's as busy as you say I doubt he has time to hold grudges against graduate students who ask for help (especially given that's part of his job). Get what you need from him, stop caring about whether or not he likes you, get grad school done.
 
Oh, and what do other people in your program say?
 
Wonderfalls said:
I'm halfway through my second year of a clinical psych PhD program and I'm so tired of it. I still enjoy psych a lot and I like learning about it, enjoy the clinical aspects of the program, but the research side is killing me. I am so uninterested in my thesis topic and all I feel all the time is stress. I can't sleep, I can't enjoy myself sometimes because I keep feeling tremendous anxiety about the work I'm not doing.

This semester has just been tough because I've come to realize that my adviser and I are not compatible. I knew from the start he was more hands-off, but I didn't realize how completely uninvolved he would be. I wish he would set more structure and expectations for me but he is so busy with grants and other projects that it doesn't seem plausible. Also, as dumb as this sounds, I honestly feel that he will judge me for asking him for help. He is pretty critical and is bad at hiding when he's disappointed with you, and it's kept me from going to him already.
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You may need to take the initiative here in terms of setting structure and timelines up. As roubs mentioned, hand-holding through these processes is definitely not the norm. Perhaps take some initiative (e.g., draft a timeline with concrete benchmarks and set up a formal meeting to go over it). I had a very hands off advisor myself, and it helped me to develop my own internal motivation/accountability flow. You also really should discuss things with other people in your lab - they may have some insight and advice for you. Usually busy mentors have their senior students provide some supervision for them.

Being uninterested in your topic sounds like a problem - why are you doing that topic then? I get it if it is an available data thing - in which case, I'd suggest just diving in to get it over with rather than prolonging your suffering.

To a certain extent, graduate school involved a fair amount of doing things you don't want to do. My advice is to suck it up and take what you can from it. You might be surprised and feel differently after you put some of these things behind you. I wouldn't quit based on having a rough patch - I think we all struggled at times when in school. But of course, that is a very personal decision.
 
I feel like this every other day and I just started, except I feel gypped out of the research training that I want and need. And, unlike those that Dr. E mentioned, I have a licensable masters degree and could quit and start practicing right this minute, if I wanted to (I don't--I want to do research). It's hard to come to a decision and I'm personally afraid that I'll coast through my entire program with this ambivalence and lack of training and end up in a clinical career that I hate anyway! I definitely relate to the inability to just quit, too, because "what if" things turn around??

When I talk to others in my program, especially those further along, I find they almost all feel the same way--especially if they have the same career goals. I'm really trying to focus on what I want/need and find faculty who are supportive (I'm not in a traditional mentor model program, which has it's bonuses as well as its drawbacks).

I'm really glad you posted about this. I'm hungry for other people to talk about this early disillusionment that happens in doc programs. It's not like we can possibly know much about what the program will be like until we're actually in it--stupid application process!
 
Psychadelic2012 said:
I feel like this every other day and I just started, except I feel gypped out of the research training that I want and need. And, unlike those that Dr. E mentioned, I have a licensable masters degree and could quit and start practicing right this minute, if I wanted to (I don't--I want to do research). It's hard to come to a decision and I'm personally afraid that I'll coast through my entire program with this ambivalence and lack of training and end up in a clinical career that I hate anyway! I definitely relate to the inability to just quit, too, because "what if" things turn around??

When I talk to others in my program, especially those further along, I find they almost all feel the same way--especially if they have the same career goals. I'm really trying to focus on what I want/need and find faculty who are supportive (I'm not in a traditional mentor model program, which has it's bonuses as well as its drawbacks).

I'm really glad you posted about this. I'm hungry for other people to talk about this early disillusionment that happens in doc programs. It's not like we can possibly know much about what the program will be like until we're actually in it--stupid application process!
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Im so with you. I would be reallllllly curious to read research on disillusionment among grad-students in psychology. Haven't looked into it. Anyone know of any?
 
I experienced disillusionment the first time I did clinical work. I do not really enjoy clinical work that much, and the issue is that I am in a more clinically-oriented program. We have research opportunities here, but not as many as some other programs.

I enjoy grad school more now, but a lot of times I worry about the future--particularly, getting a job in research or academia when I don't have a lot of funding or publication opportunities in my program. Also, I worry about getting an internship when I am not very excited about clinical work and I'm not sure I'll be competitive for research-focused ones.
 
Futurama?

I too am somewhat concerned about employment prospects. I should be fine for post-doc, but faculty jobs are concerning. Especially since right now I WOULD be leaning towards a job in a cancer center (ideally), but those are soft-money which makes the prospects particularly precarious given the current grant funding situation. This is especially true given the political situation and the desire to slash funding left and right, which regardless of what it does to the private sector, would utterly destroy most traditional employment paths in our field. Fortunately odds of that party taking over seem low, but its still terrifying.
 
Rivi said:
Welcome to the forum. I am currently a fourth year. If I had a dollar every time I thought about quitting graduate school I would be able to retire on a yacht in Dubai.

Ah yes, I can relate, although I don't think I am as perfectionistic as you are. My first year SUCKED. I didn't like my research or clinical work, for the most part. I came to the realization that I sucked at therapy, which led me into an existential crisis of sorts. I felt totally out of place and was 90% sure at one point that I was going to drop out.

The good news for me was that it got better as I started getting involved in things that I liked and developed my interests. In the beginning, I thought I would like pretty much everything. As time went on, I learned what I find inherently rewarding, which lead me to chose better research projects, practicums, etc. I also started getting comfortable being assertive and making time for myself.

I think you have some personal issues to work on (as I did :)) that are probably making things harder than they need to be. I think once you get a little bit more comfortable being assertive and dealing with your insecurities, you will have a much easier time. Also, when as you get more skilled, things start getting a lot more rewarding. The things that helped me out were: personal therapy (probably available through your local university), making time for myself, making some friends and commiserating with fellow grad students, my spirituality, and reminding myself of the light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, you might like this video:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovEghdXC4tE[/YOUTUBE]
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This is a very good post.

I saw the video once recently. It's reassuring.

I'm glad Wonderfalls started this post, and that others have shared their experiences. You all really know how to make someone like me feel like he is not totally bananas after a long day :laugh:
 
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LivingOffLoans said:
This is a very good post.

I saw the video once recently. It's reassuring.

I'm glad Wonderfalls started this post, and that others have shared their experiences. You all really know how to make someone like me feel like he is not totally bananas after a long day :laugh:
Click to expand...

Yes, that video was awesome! Thanks! I think we all need a laugh and cameraderie like that at times!:laugh:
 
Ollie123 said:
Futurama?

I too am somewhat concerned about employment prospects. I should be fine for post-doc, but faculty jobs are concerning. Especially since right now I WOULD be leaning towards a job in a cancer center (ideally), but those are soft-money which makes the prospects particularly precarious given the current grant funding situation. This is especially true given the political situation and the desire to slash funding left and right, which regardless of what it does to the private sector, would utterly destroy most traditional employment paths in our field. Fortunately odds of that party taking over seem low, but its still terrifying.
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On the up side for you - cancer centers will always have more money than places that specialize in purely mental health. Governments just won't take the risk of slashing cancer funding as drastically as mental health funding.
 
ResearchGirlie said:
On the up side for you - cancer centers will always have more money than places that specialize in purely mental health. Governments just won't take the risk of slashing cancer funding as drastically as mental health funding.
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I saw tons of cancer jobs on the market last year, FWIW. A friend got one of them. It's a better speciality (job security wise) than a lot of other paths.
 
Oh indeed they are, but the NCI payline on R01s is around 7-8% last I checked. THAT is what scares me since the gigs I'm looking at are typically mostly/entirely soft money (which is also how they can still hire!).

Still - definitely not a bad area to be in relative to many.
 
Ollie123 said:
Oh indeed they are, but the NCI payline on R01s is around 7-8% last I checked. THAT is what scares me since the gigs I'm looking at are typically mostly/entirely soft money (which is also how they can still hire!).

Still - definitely not a bad area to be in relative to many.
Click to expand...

Yeah - you could come to the dark side (like me) and go to an R2. Then your job isn't contingent on soft money, although soft money is viewed quite favorably :D

For me personally, that was the best overall choice for things like level of interest, quality of life, family, etc...
 
This one is funny too.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWoQWoRjfGs[/YOUTUBE]
 
Ollie123 said:
Oh indeed they are, but the NCI payline on R01s is around 7-8% last I checked. THAT is what scares me since the gigs I'm looking at are typically mostly/entirely soft money (which is also how they can still hire!).

Still - definitely not a bad area to be in relative to many.
Click to expand...

It's definitely scary to rely on soft money! I'm surprised the rates are that low on RO1s via NCI. I thought at least some areas of funding were still relatively preserved. Oof.
 
Desire to leave grad school so extremely high right now. 2nd year phd, funded, having already completed an MA. Really considering cutting (opportunity cost) losses and pursuing masters level license. Just can NOT see this being worth it given the unlikelyhood that I will end up in academia / primarily clinical interests.

Im sure theres few/none on here, but I would love to hear from people who HAVE left their programs, but still work in the field.

fraaaaaaag.
 
From my experience and the experience of my collegues, this field becomes tougher as you progress through graduate school because unfortunately the "weeding out" is done during the internship, post-doctoral process, and licensure process after you invested between 5-7 years of your life post-college. What I find so disheartening is that you can do EVERYTHING right--go to a top PhD program, land an APA internship, etc.-and still have trouble with the licensure/post-doc process. This is unethical to me since one has already invested 6 years of training at this point--not including college years. There are states that make it very difficult to get licensed these days and drag the process several years.

I worked so hard to get an APA internship only to realize that I had to do it all over again during the post-doctoral process. I live in a state that has pretty rigorous licensure requirements (4 hrs of supervision per week) so it is very challenging to get licensed without a formal post-doc. Every clinical post-doc in my state has 100-500 applications and only takes between 1-4 applications. From my experience, its just gotten more and more competitive at each step of the way. The post-docs i've looked at require apa accredited internships and they still get 100+ applications for 1-2 spots. I cannot move because of family obligations and find it very discouraging to keep jumping through impossible hoops and try to land something despite low odds. There are even numerous unpaid post-docs because its gotten so crazy competitive out there.

Anyways, what i'm trying to say is that if you feel demoralized in the beginning, I'm not sure how you will fare as the years progress and you face all the intense competition and continuous hoops in this field. It takes denial, masochism, and stubbornness to keep moving despite all the set backs and hoops in this field. Its not worth it unless you cannot imagine being satisfied doing anything else.
 
Sorry to hear about your post-doc struggles right now, 2012. It's disheartening to hear that clinical psych folks are having similar issues with post-doc/licensure as academics are having in other fields (with hundreds of applicants for a single spot, even if job is located in Dinkusville). I hope you get a post-doc that suits your needs. Good luck! :luck:


2012PhD said:
From my experience and the experience of my collegues, this field becomes tougher as you progress through graduate school because unfortunately the "weeding out" is done during the internship, post-doctoral process, and licensure process after you invested between 5-7 years of your life post-college. What I find so disheartening is that you can do EVERYTHING right--go to a top PhD program, land an APA internship, etc.-and still have trouble with the licensure/post-doc process. This is unethical to me since one has already invested 6 years of training at this point--not including college years. There are states that make it very difficult to get licensed these days and drag the process several years.

I worked so hard to get an APA internship only to realize that I had to do it all over again during the post-doctoral process. I live in a state that has pretty rigorous licensure requirements (4 hrs of supervision per week) so it is very challenging to get licensed without a formal post-doc. Every clinical post-doc in my state has 100-500 applications and only takes between 1-4 applications. From my experience, its just gotten more and more competitive at each step of the way. The post-docs i've looked at require apa accredited internships and they still get 100+ applications for 1-2 spots. I cannot move because of family obligations and find it very discouraging to keep jumping through impossible hoops and try to land something despite low odds. There are even numerous unpaid post-docs because its gotten so crazy competitive out there.

Anyways, what i'm trying to say is that if you feel demoralized in the beginning, I'm not sure how you will fare as the years progress and you face all the intense competition and continuous hoops in this field. It takes denial, masochism, and stubbornness to keep moving despite all the set backs and hoops in this field. Its not worth it unless you cannot imagine being satisfied doing anything else.
Click to expand...
 
2012PhD said:
From my experience and the experience of my collegues, this field becomes tougher as you progress through graduate school because unfortunately the "weeding out" is done during the internship, post-doctoral process, and licensure process after you invested between 5-7 years of your life post-college. What I find so disheartening is that you can do EVERYTHING right--go to a top PhD program, land an APA internship, etc.-and still have trouble with the licensure/post-doc process. This is unethical to me since one has already invested 6 years of training at this point--not including college years. There are states that make it very difficult to get licensed these days and drag the process several years.

I worked so hard to get an APA internship only to realize that I had to do it all over again during the post-doctoral process. I live in a state that has pretty rigorous licensure requirements (4 hrs of supervision per week) so it is very challenging to get licensed without a formal post-doc. Every clinical post-doc in my state has 100-500 applications and only takes between 1-4 applications. From my experience, its just gotten more and more competitive at each step of the way. The post-docs i've looked at require apa accredited internships and they still get 100+ applications for 1-2 spots. I cannot move because of family obligations and find it very discouraging to keep jumping through impossible hoops and try to land something despite low odds. There are even numerous unpaid post-docs because its gotten so crazy competitive out there.

Anyways, what i'm trying to say is that if you feel demoralized in the beginning, I'm not sure how you will fare as the years progress and you face all the intense competition and continuous hoops in this field. It takes denial, masochism, and stubbornness to keep moving despite all the set backs and hoops in this field. Its not worth it unless you cannot imagine being satisfied doing anything else.
Click to expand...

I know this varies to some extent by state, but I would check in to "informal" postdocs as well. Often they are just as good as formal ones. Usually this takes some networking or opening your eyes to up other possibilities (e.g., mind doing your clinical hours as part of a research study?)

I agree that it sucks, although I found the postdoc process a little less cumbersome than internship. Then again, had I struck out when I was applying, I may have viewed it differently. Who knows what is going to happen 5-10 years from now after all of these students stuck in the internship rut are pumped out from schools enrolling huge class sizes. As of now, postdocs represent another form of indentured servitude since you need them and people can pay you cheaply to do their work.

Personally, I think these are the conversations that people need to hear when they are considering entering the field.

wig - we've discussed academic jobs before. When one goes into other social science PhD programs, are there as many alternatives as there are for clinical psychology? Is this communicated very well? Because gosh, I found the academic job market for clinical to be stressful - and some people seem to think it is an easier market since there are alternatives (which I disagree with).
 
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