California court bans SAT in UC system

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MyOdyssey

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“University of California must suspend all use of SAT and ACT scores in admissions, a judge ruled, siding with attorneys representing students with disabilities who argued that those students have not been able to access the tests during the coronavirus pandemic.“


Is it only a matter of time before the MCAT gets the same treatment?

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“University of California must suspend all use of SAT and ACT scores in admissions, a judge ruled, siding with attorneys representing students with disabilities who argued that those students have not been able to access the tests during the coronavirus pandemic.“


Is it only a matter of time before the MCAT gets the same treatment?
Nope.
 
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What’s next: don’t look at high school grades, high school course rigor, AP scores, SAT 2 scores, state-based standardized test scores, IB scores.
Replace them with VITA.:giggle:
 
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Here we go with the "everyone gets a trophy"
 
To ban the use of MCAT would require suits against each individual school Is AMCAS is only a processor and specifically has no admissions decision role within this process.

A state judge banning the use of SAT for a unified college system name of University of California can do so. Trying to have a federal judge do some sort of Preliminary injunction Nationally without any sort of class being certified and not the Deferring to the regulatory system (Where the Department of Education Has authorized the LCME as the sole creditor for allopathic medical school.

The only legal action that woul seem remotely feasible Would be suing AMCAS over lack of access For those with disabilities. Even that would be a huge hurdle as force majeure namely the pandemic Has prevented want otherwise would have considered good faith effort in accommodating these Students
I dunno -- force majeure??? Pretty fancy. Are you are lawyer?

I agree CA is an outlier with respect to lots of liberal causes, but a similar action against AAMC, or any individual school or school system doesn't seem that far fetched at all. If the issue is ADA and providing equal access to the disabled, "force majeure" would dictate that the schools lose their MCAT until proper accommodations can be made, not that the disabled lose their access to medical school!

Honestly, irrelevant in our case, since AAMC is keenly aware of the issue, and I'm 100% sure MCAT accommodations have continued to be made for the shortened COVID exam, but still. The ADA doesn't go out the window due to the pandemic. Force majeure! :laugh:
 
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I dunno -- force majeure??? Pretty fancy. Are you are lawyer?
or energy trader :) I learned that word when I was developing software for energy industry.
 
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or energy trader :) I learned that word when I was developing software for energy industry.
Great! So, what happens? Schools lose their test, or the disabled lose their rights under the law??? In CA, we know the answer, so this isn't that difficult! It's irrelevant because AAMC is on top of it, but it's a terrible argument, because force majeure wouldn't be a defense to screwing someone out of the chance to apply to school on equal footing with everyone else.
 
Great! So, what happens? Schools lose their test, or the disabled lose their rights under the law??? In CA, we know the answer, so this isn't that difficult! It's irrelevant because AAMC is on top of it, but it's a terrible argument, because force majeure wouldn't be a defense to screwing someone out of the chance to apply to school on equal footing with everyone else.
I am not going to comment given my political leanings :)
 
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I am not going to comment given my political leanings :)
I agree there is no reason to go here. The CA court has spoken, and it has absolutely no relevance to MD admissions due to the accommodations AAMC and Pearson VUE have gone to great lengths to make in order to avoid the issue.
 
I'll be honest. When I first saw this headline a few days ago, I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek satire.

Didn't realize it was real.. o_O
 
I'll be honest. When I first saw this headline a few days ago, I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek satire.

Didn't realize it was real.. o_O
Yup! With CA, you can never take anything for granted!
 
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This has nothing to do with liberal courts but rather the differing legal strategies that would needed. In the California case you have state court instructing a state school system to not considered the MCAT as it puts a “class” of people (disabled) at disadvantage. This ruling impacts the admitting schools directly.

a Federal case against AAMC would be different. Medical schools would not be a party to the case and there would be no basis to order them en masse to not consider the MCAT. Additionally, if the case was based on violation of ADA, the redress would be to make sure that accommodation is made for these individuals; it would not be cancel MCAT administration as this would possibly lead to putting those who have not yet taken the exam at a disadvantage against those who have already taken the exam at schools where the MCAT is still being used for admissions. In other words, you dont provide relief to one class by creating a new class of people who now may be at disadvantage
Agreed! My reading of the CA case (at least from the article) was that the disabled were disadvantaged because they weren't able to receive accommodations for the SAT, so the court threw the SAT out. The court didn't get involved in trying to order the testing accommodation. They observed that the accommodation wasn't made, and decided the preferable remedy was to throw the test out rather than trying to tell the SAT people how to run their test.

You are correct -- AAMC is making accommodations, so there would be no basis to throw the MCAT out. Period. On the other hand, if the same thing were happening with the MCAT as happened with the SAT, you'd have the same result, at least in CA, and probably nationally, since the ADA is a federal law. I don't know enough about the law to know whether the federal government could bring the case against AAMC and impose its will on the schools through AAMC, which after all, is an association of medical schools, or whether they'd have to go through each school individually, but the point is moot because AAMC spotted the potential issue and acted preemptively to avoid it.

I know AAMC today takes the position that it is just a platform, like Facebook or eBay. But guess what? Facebook is starting to learn it might very well have liability for content posted by its users!!

All MD schools are members of AAMC. AAMC provides the MCAT, the application platform, the CYMS reporting tool, and coordinates just fine when it wants to. It could certainly impose a requirement on its member schools if ordered to do so by a federal court. If not, a federal court could probably just issue an injunction against all the schools just like the CA court did.

It's not like there are a million schools. Forget class action -- the government would just have to name the 150 schools as defendants and go get its injunction! Again, not going to happen because there is no basis, but it could if there were.
 
But the schools arent the ones who are violating the ADA, the AAMC would be the defendant for administration of the exam. There would be no way to make the schools a party to an ADA case in this matter. And if the DOJ would try to bring such action, they would be faced with Federal DOE being defendant with schools. Why? Since schools are accredited by LCME with MCAT to be considered for admission and LCME is the designated agent to do so by the DOE, those requirements would be considered a equal formal government regulation. This would boil down to has AAMC adhered to the regulations based on ADA as much as possible under this pandemic.
Why are you saying that? The CA schools also didn't violate the ADA. But they were ordered to not use the test. The plaintiff in CA didn't sue SAT and ACT. They sued the schools. And won! The court said the disabled didn't have access to the test, therefore the schools couldn't use it. Period. The case wasn't about the test administration. Also, the plaintiff wasn't the state, it was a private party.

Why couldn't the same thing happen with med schools? Again, not now, over this, because accommodations were made, but in general? Why do you think a lawsuit would be impossible, because it would necessarily involve the federal government suing itself?
 
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Curious, what is the ADA N for medical vs UG schools?
 
In CA it was a state court using state law (not federal ADA law) ordering a unified state system not to use an exam as consideration at all because it put the disabled at disadvantage. It may in fact been based on the charter and/or educational law/regulations of the UC system that were the basis of this suit. So understand that a legislature makes a law. The executive bureaucracy then makes regulations applying that law. Then each entity makes rules implementing the law. Essentially a single disabled person could bring this suit against a single entity UC for not following its rules as made under the state law. It could also be seen as being pre-emptive

Federal would be completely different and you have several factors to consider

1) ADA: Again, you have congress making the law. Each department then makes regulations applying that law, in this case, it would be DOE. Then each school that falls under the jurisdiction of DOE by virtue of receiving federal grants and loans.
2) Standing. For any legal action, you must have a standing or position to bring a case. Could a single disabled person bring a case against all medical schools under ADA? No, only against the schools they applied to and likely only after they have been denied and can show some reasonable cause that it was because of MCAT. And, I am sure that there is a whole level of DOE complaint and appeal steps that would have to be taken first before a court would consider this. Could a "class" or group of disabled be certified and bring such action? possibly but again it would have to go through DOE first.
3) The legal question: Are you suing under ADA for schools using a potentially flawed administration of the MCAT for denying admission? Or are you suing the AAMC for flawed administration, Even though all schools are member of the AAMC, all centralized functions of the AAMC are set up specifically so it has no role in admissions decisions.
4) Association: There is freedom of assembly even across organizations and you are claiming a criminal conspiracy (which would then be a DOJ matter) the two legal questions are just that. Two separate and distinct matters that involve two separate and distinct parties. Actually it would involve multiple distinct parties as each school is a separate entity and is entitled to its own standing.
5) Action: Assuming that a group of people had been certified a class by a court and then went through appropriate levels of complaints and appeals via DOE (which is the likely prospect), then they would get to court. And then would it be that the DOE is with them against schools or is actually with the schools. And that position would either defended or prosecuted by the DOJ.
6) Timing: Federal courts are loath to take pre-emptive action, in this case before admission is decided. They are more likely to get involved if a plaintiff has been denied admission and is now seeking redress.
7) Redress: Even if a court were to examine this prior to admission, it is highly unlikely on a federal level to take one class of impacted people (disabled students who were unable to take MCAT) and create a different class of impacted students (those who had MCAT score and used in consideration for admissions.
8) Defense: The AAMC quickly made policy changes within this pandemic to do all that was possible to administer the MCAT. It would seem they took more than reasonable action under a Force Majure or Act of G-d that occurred. Each school set its own policies and so each would have to be examined.
9) Summary: the only way I see federal action against AAMC and schools would be if the DOE brought the case. I do not see any court considering a class action otherwise.
Wow!!! I feel like I just sat through, not just a seminar, but an entire law school class!! Are you a lawyer? If not, you definitely should be!!! :)

Also, good thing AAMC took care of the accommodations, huh???
 
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Wow!!! I feel like I just sat through, not just a seminar, but an entire law school class!! Are you a lawyer? If you, you definitely should be!!! :)
Want to intern for him? :cool:
 
And, I'm definitely not applying -- it's Labor Day and I'm not verified yet!! :cool:
I thought you are applying only for DO to remove DO stigma, so you have plenty of time.
 
I thought you are applying only for DO to remove DO stigma, so you have plenty of time.
No, that was your kid because of your DO Ortho explicitly recommended by your MD wife. :cool:

I go with the popular consensus! Plus, TBH, my ECs are just as crappy for DO as MD, so I'd be accomplishing nothing!! :)
 
No, that was your kid because of your DO Ortho explicitly recommended by your MD wife. :cool:

I go with the popular consensus!
My kid is going to be MD Ortho and I want you to be DO ortho.
 
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But.... who will your wife recommend, since she loves DOs so much???? :laugh:
I said she goes by whoever does better job, not by MD or DO. So you need to become DO Ortho and prove that you can do better than my MD kid :)
 
I said she goes by whoever does better job, not by MD or DO. So you need to become DO Ortho and prove that you can do better than my MD kid :)
Maybe I'll just play it safe and go for the MD rather than hoping I'll receive a recommendation over her son (unless you adopt me, but, even then, I still won't be blood :)). I guess "N" really does =1, and all DOs are not recommended above MDs by your MD wife. Maybe that's not a data point we should take into account in making a decision here. :laugh:
 
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Maybe I'll just play it safe and go for the MD rather than hoping I'll receive a recommendation over her son (unless you adopt me, but, even then, I still won't be blood :)). I guess "N" really does =1, and all DOs are not recommended above MDs by your MD wife. Maybe that's not a data point we should take into account in making a decision here. :laugh:
N=1 with full knowledge vs 18% percent of perfect stats don't get it (without details) vs bird in the hand?
 
N=1 with full knowledge vs 18% percent of perfect stats don't get it (without details) vs bird in the hand?
Perfect stats? Now 3.8 and 514 is perfect??? But a 517 needs to be retaken?????? :laugh:

Bird in hand? Are we now back to the virtues of fourth tier BS/MD??
 
Perfect stats? Now 3.8 and 514 is perfect??? But a 517 needs to be retaken?????? :laugh:

Bird in hand? Are we now back to the virtues of fourth tier BS/MD??
Yeap, back to be happy with any admission, MD=DO, don't be a perfectionist etc...

Let's get back to original topic before you make mods close another thread :)
 
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Yeap, back to be happy with any admission, MD=DO, don't be a perfectionist etc...

Let's get back to original topic before you make mods close another thread :)
I honestly thought the original topic had long since been played out!
 
Why not just make the MCAT P/F like they just did for Step 1?
 
Why not just make the MCAT P/F like they just did for Step 1?
There was a spirited discussion on that topic several months ago. The obvious answer is because the schools like using it to stratify us. For most, "holistic" admissions only come into play once you are stratified into your tier. (I.e., Penn is very interested in the difference between a 522 and a 502, even though they both show a basic level of proficiency. Holistic only comes into play once they've established who is 510 and who is 520.)
 
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