Supreme Court Ruling, Race based admissions.

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Harvard is just one school and the claim you make at the end isn’t well supported at all, unless you have further proof. What seems and what is are two different things.

My immediate thought is that Waxman just might be right in doubting that legacy admissions would allow for more diversity. There’s no evidence and who’s to say that more not-rich Asians and whites won’t just take the places of the legacy students which doesn’t increase diversity?

As for him saying they would lose their character and originality, I’m not sure what that meant.
I guess you don’t agree with the civil rights complaints against Harvard and like to draw your own conclusions on the demographics of legacy admissions.
According to this complaint, applicants tied to donors were nearly seven times more likely to get into Harvard between 2014 and 2019. Legacy applicants were nearly six times more likely to get in. And nearly 70% of the college's donor-related and legacy applicants were white.

Lawyers for Civil Rights, a nonprofit based in Boston, filed the civil rights complaint today on behalf of Black and Latino community groups in New England, alleging that Harvard’s admissions system violates the Civil Rights Act.

Maybe you need to listen closely to what you state in your post : “What seems and what is are two different things.”


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I guess you don’t agree with the civil rights complaints against Harvard and like to draw your own conclusions on the demographics of legacy admissions.
According to this complaint, applicants tied to donors were nearly seven times more likely to get into Harvard between 2014 and 2019. Legacy applicants were nearly six times more likely to get in. And nearly 70% of the college's donor-related and legacy applicants were white.

Lawyers for Civil Rights, a nonprofit based in Boston, filed the civil rights complaint today on behalf of Black and Latino community groups in New England, alleging that Harvard’s admissions system violates the Civil Rights Act.

Maybe you need to listen closely to what you state in your post : “What seems and what is are two different things.”

No, I’m against legacy admissions. I’m just saying there’s no proof that ending legacy admissions will increase diversity, therefore those against it need a better statement with proof.
 
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*EDIT* I mentioned the wrong article earlier, I meant to refer to this article shared by @Mr.Smile12


This article says that at the center of the AA debate are top schools like Harvard which is proof that many of those who are against AA are motivated by their obsession with those schools.
 
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Johns Hopkins Ditched Legacy Admissions to Boost Diversity – And It Worked


Over the past decade, the percentage of Pell-eligible students at Johns Hopkins rose from 9% to 19%, and the percentage of students on financial aid climbed to over half of the student body, from 34%

I think there is evidence to suggest eliminating legacy can boost diversity if the university wants to do so. However, it's up to the university as legacy students are probably wealthier and can increase donations from alumni. It's sort of like financial aid because every university has their system and implementation of where to draw lines.

Now, more than a quarter of Johns Hopkins undergraduates are from minority backgrounds, up more than 10 percentage points since 2009. Conversely, the proportion of students with legacy ties to the university dropped from 12.5% to 3.5%.

I think there is evidence to suggest ending legacy can increase diversity if the university wants to do so. However, legacy students are more likely to be wealthy and increase donations from alumni. Its like financial aid, different at every school and they each have their own system and implementation. They decide where to draw the lines.
 
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Johns Hopkins Ditched Legacy Admissions to Boost Diversity – And It Worked




I think there is evidence to suggest ending legacy can increase diversity if the university wants to do so. However, legacy students are more likely to be wealthy and increase donations from alumni. It’s like financial aid, different at every school and they each have their own system and implementation. They decide where to draw the lines.
And the universities will counterspin the narrative saying they do need their legacy and donors and celebrities to increase financial aid for their underprivileged students…The category of legacy is nothing but Affirmative Action based on wealth, privilege and connections. Operation Varsity Blues exposed the Athlete category as simply bogus.
 
The dirty truth about a lot of colleges is that unless they're one of the few super rich schools, they need wealthy students to afford scholarships for poor ones.

For many, if not most, private colleges and universities, the "sticker price" is way higher than the cost. Colleges can then offer massive financial aid (scholarships) to students to bring the "net price" down to a reasonable amount. But one of the ways they do it is by accepting students who have the resources and willingness to pay the full sticker price. Effectively, one "full pay" student will cover the tuition of one fully funded scholarship student.

While there are lots of sources of wealthy students willing to pay full price, one super consistent source for them is legacy students: they have a tie to the institution, their family wants them to go, and they often have the means to pay full or close to full tuition.

One past financial aid department at a college I worked at said that they shot for even number of full scholarships, half scholarships, and full cost students. The half scholarships were effectively paying the cost of their education, and the full cost students funded the full scholarship students cost of attendance.
 
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Accepting more students who will be on financial aid and such does have a price. The top institutions can afford it because so many of their students are from wealthy family. Almost half of Harvard's students pay full tuition. Only 22% of students come from families with under 75k household income. I can easily see other schools where this is not true and can't be as generous.

Here is another dirty secret. https://www.bestcolleges.com/blog/do-college-waitlists-favor-wealthy/

The university was essentially telling families of waitlisted students that if we didn’t request financial aid, our child would stand a better chance of getting accepted.

So waitlists at some "need blind" schools can consider financial aid. After all, if two comparable students can be selected, the schools can make more money from a wealthier one vs someone who need financial aid. This is a part of life, money talks.
 
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AA was just a cover for Harvard’s ALDC and now the lid has blown off!
Hardly, the the deans interest list + legacy students comprise less than 5% of the class. And that includes students above the stat medians meaning it's possible some of those students would have gained admissions even if they were not legacy.

Far more students with stats near the bottom end of Harvard's averages are admitted from underrepresented minority groups than 5%.

So, although I think legacy admissions are just as much racism as any of the other policies being attacked here, It is absolutely absurd and utterly disconnected from reality to suggest AA was "just a cover" for legacy admissions.
 
Ironically, it's exactly this issue that has some of my "high stat" applicants fail in their applications. They're too focused on themselves and their accomplishments, and miss the big picture. Accordingly, they focus all of their application on proving they will be successful in medical school, rather than spending any focus talking about what kind of a physician they will be after.

It's the same challenge with students I have who want to load up on every recommended STEM course, but neglect my advice to take time learning languages, taking classes on other cultures, spending time taking social science and humanities classes that will let them better understand people, systems, and ways of thought that will make them more effective physicians.
I totally agree with you on this aspect. Infact, after traveling/staying in Asia/Europe I have to say that the worldly knowledge of average American citizen is completely self centered. It doesn't matter high stat or low stat. I guess it is mainly due to our narrow view of television/youtube/tiktok channels and focussed on too much political keywords without depth in reasoning and no news about other places of the world. When you go to other countries ( France, India, Korea etc.,) atleast people are much better informed. One way to supplement this is at least take courses in humanities, philosophy and read books (( cannot supplement the practical knowledge fully, but at least to some extent ) to keep up with reality. Many of the comments I hear is like talking points from CNN/Fox.
 
Hardly, the the deans interest list + legacy students comprise less than 5% of the class. And that includes students above the stat medians meaning it's possible some of those students would have gained admissions even if they were not legacy.

Far more students with stats near the bottom end of Harvard's averages are admitted from underrepresented minority groups than 5%.

So, although I think legacy admissions are just as much racism as any of the other policies being attacked here, It is absolutely absurd and utterly disconnected from reality to suggest AA was "just a cover" for legacy admissions.
Let's call legacy admission what it really is: Aristocratic affirmative action for the rich. It's a slap in the face of meritocracy and fairness. If you oppose race-based affirmative action, then it is really unfair to support privilege/wealth-based affirmative action. And the fact is that legacy admissions are not 5% as you claim but actually in the range of 15-22% of the student body. The actual numbers could be even higher but we may never get to hear about those- as the universities fiercely guard their legacy admission numbers unlike race-based admissions where they reveal the % in each race.

All elite schools will still be able to give free rides to kids from poor backgrounds, even if it stops giving preference to the the elite. Or better yet, these colleges may have a real incentive to keep their tuition at low/modest levels for everyone to be able to afford tuition, since they cannot depend on their wealthy donors to subsidize their financially strapped students.

 
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I don't know people who commented high stats are less important for serving patient are going to comment about this "Mainly money" criteria of admission process and let these people as our future physicians. I hope we could reduce the intake of Foreign educated residents ( especially filter out these type of places where they have ridiculous admission process ) and increase our intake in US medical colleges and fill in candidates who are much much more deserving and dont get in. I hope someone in the forum forward to your Representative to address this issue. I am sure money may not be an issue to increase intake as Medical schools makes insane amount of money and also many students willing to pay based on the competitive nature of the admissions. If we admit more students, we might not filter out deserving students and they won't lament ( atleast make it less of an issue ) when we admit under-represented minority who rightly deserves to be serving the community as well.
This is a great idea and worthy enough to be pursued.
 
Intellectual honesty, integrity, and good faith arguments have long been absent from public discussion of any contentious issues. Any reasonable debate is usually hijacked by the extremes in both sides. It's much easier to mobilize people who are angry and riled up. AA is no different. Just my thoughts.
Agreed. That is why we need un-biased moderators. I see that many times someone who was grumpy about high stats goes on to discredit, I don't see experienced contributors come to defend. People with high stats are not just socially inept. It is possible that many high stat folks are just privileged to have brought up in good school district and parents pushing them to work harder. Yes, they might sacrifice little bit of partying or may not spend time on TikTok. There is meaning to it. As another person in this forum quoted, like LizzyM giving higher weight for MCAT, than GPA and so on. It is true that a disadvantage population has been further affected by Supreme Court., but we need honesty and fairness in the arguments. I hope the experienced contributors show the other side as well.
 
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Agreed. That is why we need un-biased moderators. I see that many times someone who was grumpy about high stats goes on to discredit, I don't see experienced contributors come to defend.
I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborate? It seems like this thread is full of experienced contributors.
 
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Race is a protected class. Legacy status is not protected by civil rights statutes. So, racial preferences are not legal but legacy admissions are legal.

Frankly, I do believe that some of the success attributed to Ivy League diplomas is actually the result of wealth, connections and power associated with the families that have been sending their progeny to those schools for, in some cases, 300 years. Just being smart and graduating from Harvard or Yale will not make you an aristocrat. It may open some doors but others will continue to be shut due to your literal pedigree.
 
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Race is a protected class. Legacy status is not protected by civil rights statutes. So, racial preferences are not legal but legacy admissions are legal.

Frankly, I do believe that some of the success attributed to Ivy League diplomas is actually the result of wealth, connections and power associated with the families that have been sending their progeny to those schools for, in some cases, 300 years. Just being smart and graduating from Harvard or Yale will not make you an aristocrat. It may open some doors but others will continue to be shut due to your literal pedigree.
Or as Chief Justice Roberts put it, "We didn't fight a civil war about oboe players".

Supreme Court does not write laws, it interprets them. Legacies are here to stay at least for now or until a clever white guy uses black people or other URM as cover to achieve this mission.
 
I hope the experienced contributors show the other side as well.
What are you implying? That lower GPA and MCAT increases your chance of failing STEP and exams? We discussed how after a certain point, it stops meaning much, like a predicted 98% vs a 99% chance of passing isn't going to influence admins much. On the other hand, your ability to communicate is very important, and if you cannot get your point across, I doubt your ability to be a good physician.
 
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If you have a tag like faculty or admission officer or physician or even a verified member, I would consider your comment and act on it. You are just making useless noise here rather than meaningful contribution. So I would rather request my university pre-med advisor or my professors or the physician I shadowed or qualified person to correct my short coming if I have any on my ability to be a good physician.
Nice. So you trust people based on reputation and credentials but cannot make intelligent judgment based on logic and facts. The most common interaction in medical school is between med students but considering your attitude, I guess their words are hollow and not worthy of your time. For you, only people above you can judge you and opinions of others do not require self-reflection.
 
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If you have a tag like faculty or admission officer or physician or even a verified member, I would consider your comment and act on it. You are just making useless noise here rather than meaningful contribution. So I would rather request my university pre-med advisor or my professors or the physician I shadowed or qualified person to correct my short coming if I have any on my ability to be a good physician.
Says a lot.

What you said is exactly why interviews exist as stated by the adcoms here.
 
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Nice. So you trust people based on reputation and credentials but cannot make intelligent judgment based on logic and facts. The most common interaction in medical school is between med students but considering your attitude, I guess their words are hollow and not worthy of your time. For you, only people above you can judge you and opinions of others do not require self-reflection.
No people don't establish trust just on credentials alone., but trust also develops based on how other people present themselves. Unfortunately I dont see logic and facts in many of your comments.
 
No people don't establish trust just on credentials alone., but trust also develops based on how other people present themselves. Unfortunately I dont see logic and facts in many of your comments.
And you contradict yourself with your previous statement.
If you have a tag like faculty or admission officer or physician or even a verified member, I would consider your comment and act on it.
:lol:
 
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Race is a protected class. Legacy status is not protected by civil rights statutes. So, racial preferences are not legal but legacy admissions are legal.
Not yet! Give it time

That’s why activism helps to direct change because legacy admissions has done far more harm to this country for centuries by propagating structural racism and socieconomic disparities.

Ending affirmative action but keeping legacy admissions in place because it’s legally reasonable is absurd. This country has had a lot of very unjust laws, so activism becomes even more imperative
 
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Not yet! Give it time

That’s why activism helps to direct change because legacy admissions has done far more harm to this country for centuries by propagating structural racism and socieconomic disparities.
Idk about this. "Money talks" is a fact of life. Even legacy itself is motivated by the fact that multigenerational harvard/yale families are more likely to be donors. You don't see places like LSU and Mississippi State taking particular note of legacies.

In my personal opinion, the state policing "economic discrimination" by a private institution is a road I don't want to go down. It may be a positive for making college admissions more fair, but it opens some terrifying doors.

I think a better solution is investing more into our public institutions so that underprivileged individuals can have comparable options. We've already seen that a well funded, well managed public Uni can get up there and compete with the best of them (Berkley, UCLA, UMich).
 
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Idk about this. "Money talks" is a fact of life. Even legacy itself is motivated by the fact that multigenerational harvard/yale families are more likely to be donors. You don't see places like LSU and Mississippi State taking particular note of legacies.

In my personal opinion, the state policing "economic discrimination" by a private institution is a road I don't want to go down. It may be a positive for making college admissions more fair, but it opens some terrifying doors.

I think a better solution is investing more into our public institutions so that underprivileged individuals can have comparable options. We've already seen that a well funded, well managed public Uni can get up there and compete with the best of them (Berkley, UCLA, UMich).
Yes and yet Harvard/Yale are the ones propagating advantages compared to everyone else. There’s a reason why HYPSM matters a lot for med schools, so structural inequities build up.
 
I'm black. Keep in mind that barely any black/Hispanic people are even applying (by comparison). Ask the average URM student and their aspirations aren't nearly as high as some might expect. That's because in many cases they're the first in their family to even GO to college, let alone med/law/pilot school. Most people in the US have lived and died having only ever seen docs that are Asian, Indian, or white. When I'm shadowing or doing my job, I STILL get double takes from black patients. They're in disbelief.

[The doctor] went in and out of the rooms so quickly. You could see that the patients weren't being heard or even acknowledged completely. Still, they sheepishly accepted it and answered his questions. I'll bet that was, for them, doctor #53 who they could tell doesn't give a damn about them.

Moderator note: Edited to remove inflammatory parts of comment
 
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Keep in mind that barely any black/Hispanic people are even applying (by comparison). Ask the average URM student and their aspirations aren't nearly as high as some might expect. That's because in many cases they're the first in their family to even GO to college, let alone med/law/pilot school. Most people in the US have lived and died having only ever seen docs that are Asian, Indian, or white. When I'm shadowing or doing my job, I STILL get double takes from black patients. They're in disbelief.
[The doctor] went in and out of the rooms so quickly. You could see that the patients weren't being heard or even acknowledged completely. Still, they sheepishly accepted it and answered his questions. I'll bet that was, for them, doctor #53 who they could tell doesn't give a damn about them.
Moderator note: Edited to remove inflammatory parts of comment
I'm very surprised to read this kind of stuff here. It seems like you have a lot of hate inside of you. Your words attack all Asians in a very racist way.

Moderator note: Edited quoted text to remove inflammatory parts of comment
 
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Keep in mind that barely any black/Hispanic people are even applying (by comparison). Ask the average URM student and their aspirations aren't nearly as high as some might expect. That's because in many cases they're the first in their family to even GO to college, let alone med/law/pilot school. Most people in the US have lived and died having only ever seen docs that are Asian, Indian, or white. When I'm shadowing or doing my job, I STILL get double takes from black patients. They're in disbelief.
[The doctor] went in and out of the rooms so quickly. You could see that the patients weren't being heard or even acknowledged completely. Still, they sheepishly accepted it and answered his questions. I'll bet that was, for them, doctor #53 who they could tell doesn't give a damn about them.
Moderator note: Edited text to remove inflammatory parts of comment
I am sorry that it happened. But, it didn’t happen because the patient was black. I (Asian American) have experienced it (white doctor ) and a lot more people that I knew did too. I never thought it was because of racism. In some cases, the doctors won’t have enough time. In some cases, the doctors may not realize what they are doing. My specialist is a Chinese who did undergrad at Harvard, medicine at Penn, residency at UCSF and fellowship at Cleveland clinic. He is a gem of a person, he always explained everything in detail, never in a hurry, always asked me multiple times if I had any questions. I am not Chinese btw. It is all boiled down to training. Let’s not paint people with broad brush. With due respect, I am not comfortable with the narrative that only black physicians can serve black patients well. It is not healthy. On one hand we say we need colorblind society and on the other hand , we encourage and spread this wrong notion. If needed, we have to improve our training of the doctors. My PCP is white and he has a lot of Black patients. One white DO physician has posted recently here that he has a waitlist of one year for new patients and most of them are black. He says that they are prepared to wait for one year because of his reputation.

Moderator note: Edited quoted text to remove inflammatory parts of comment
 
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Controversial topic. I get it. People are emotional and that is to be expected. However, stereotyping any ethnicity is unacceptable here and will result in immediate discipline. If this can't be a civil conversation it can't be an SDN conversation.
 
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Wait are you serious? I'm speaking about behaviors that can be observed generally. I won't make any more posts about this in that case @esob . A fellow Trekkie. What would Pike have to say about all of this?

I'm an African American as well and I 100% empathize with your frustrations. I think what's so frustrating is what people do to us we would never do to them. Our ancestors fought for rights for everyone only for generations later to be met with anti-blackness from the very people we fought for. Keep your head up and focus on the goal, your community needs you and that's all that matters. All of this is background noise. All that they do today, someone will do to them, I'm a firm believer in what goes around comes around. To any African-Americans reading this, you belong. Do not get discouraged by this ruling there are good people in academics who are still fighting the good fight with us. Don't let some loud ignorant people make you feel less than, you are worth more than gold to so many other black people and I mean it. I work in a Sickle Cell clinic with black patients and I watch them suffer day in and day out going into painful crises, the doctors know its painful and still don't want to give medicine. Theres one doctor who is Mexican-American who will without hesitation give them the medication they need. This is why our community needs you. You have something Harvard can't teach, you have something Kaplan can't explain so keep going.

ETA: Someone messaged me hurt thinking this was a jab at Asian doctors, it definitely is not. I am in no way saying that this is a Black vs Asian thing. This was a few people who did something that I don't agree with but I don't blame the billions of Asians in the world for it. For the record I personally have had really good experiences with Asian doctors. My primary care doctor is Asian and he gets it. I've had tons of good experiences with Asian doctors, and it wasn't just because they were smart it was because they saw me for who I am. I just wanted to give encouragement to someone who I can tell was hurt. :)
 
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I'm black. Keep in mind that barely any black/Hispanic people are even applying (by comparison). Ask the average URM student and their aspirations aren't nearly as high as some might expect. That's because in many cases they're the first in their family to even GO to college, let alone med/law/pilot school. Most people in the US have lived and died having only ever seen docs that are Asian, Indian, or white. When I'm shadowing or doing my job, I STILL get double takes from black patients. They're in disbelief.
[The doctor] went in and out of the rooms so quickly. You could see that the patients weren't being heard or even acknowledged completely. Still, they sheepishly accepted it and answered his questions. I'll bet that was, for them, doctor #53 who they could tell doesn't give a damn about them.
Moderator note: Edited to remove inflammatory parts of comment
I've edited your response to remove the inflammatory components of your comment(s). Some subsequent posts from you and others have also been removed for similar reasons to keep this thread on track.

I can appreciate where your frustrations are coming from. Not to discount your lived experiences, as that's what many of my patients (white, black, brown, yellow, rainbow, you name it) have experienced as well. I've found that the patients who typically 'fall through the cracks' are those without advocates who know the system. These are usually people who are non-English speaking (immigrants), from low socioeconomic households (blacks/Latinos), non-college/high school graduates, those with housing instability, those with substance use disorders, and/or those without clinician family members, etc.

As you no doubt know, the black community is much more likely to fall into one or more of these categories. And while there is a racial component (studies have shown worse outcomes for black patients even after adjusting for income, etc.), these issues (being brushed off, not being heard, etc.) are far from limited to just one or two races, as many of my non-black patients can attest to. They are equally and pleasantly surprised when they feel finally heard and cared for compassionately. Unfortunately, we (as physicians/clinicians, as a profession) have a propensity to rush through our visits, typically caused by unrealistic expectations imposed by the healthcare system (seeing 20+ patients in a day as a hospitalist, coordinating their often very complicated care, making sure notes meet billing standards, etc.). Black patients frequently experience this from black doctors and nurses as well. There are many doctors/nurses who would love to "do better" but simply can't because of these constraints (of course, there are also doctors/nurses who simply don't care).

There is much that needs to be done to ensure healthcare is equitable for all, and your voice and experiences are important in achieving this goal. We can't minimize the negative impact of our own biases if we're not aware of them. However, there are ways to channel these frustrations to ensure that your message reaches the widest audience possible. Purposely antagonizing groups of people and painting things in broad strokes will hurt your cause/mission and those (of all colors) who are actively working to even the playing field.

Hopefully this other perspective is helpful to you. For you to provide the best care possible, I think it will also be important to recognize your own clear biases to avoid subconsciously providing different care to certain groups of patients. Just my thoughts and best of luck to you and your future career.
 
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Race is a protected class. Legacy status is not protected by civil rights statutes. So, racial preferences are not legal but legacy admissions are legal.
There are two new legal theories available to challenge legacy preferences in elite universities, based on constitutional provisions:

1.The legacy preferences at public universities violate a little-litigated constitutional provision that “no state shall … grant any Title of Nobility.” Examining the early history of the country, this prohibition should not be interpreted narrowly as simply prohibiting the naming of individuals as dukes or earls, but more broadly, to prohibit “government-sponsored hereditary privileges”—including legacy preferences at public universities: “Legacy preferences at exclusive public universities were precisely the type of hereditary privilege that the Revolutionary generation sought to destroy forever.”

2. The legacy preferences are a violation of the 14th Amendment’s equal-protection clause. While the amendment was aimed primarily at stamping out discrimination against black Americans, it also extends more broadly to what Justice Potter Stewart called “preference based on lineage.” Individuals are to be judged on their own merits, not by what their parents do, which is why the courts have applied heightened scrutiny to laws that punish children born out of wedlock, or whose parents came to this country illegally.

 
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There are two new legal theories available to challenge legacy preferences in elite universities, based on constitutional provisions:

1.The legacy preferences at public universities violate a little-litigated constitutional provision that “no state shall … grant any Title of Nobility.” Examining the early history of the country, this prohibition should not be interpreted narrowly as simply prohibiting the naming of individuals as dukes or earls, but more broadly, to prohibit “government-sponsored hereditary privileges”—including legacy preferences at public universities: “Legacy preferences at exclusive public universities were precisely the type of hereditary privilege that the Revolutionary generation sought to destroy forever.”

2. The legacy preferences are a violation of the 14th Amendment’s equal-protection clause. While the amendment was aimed primarily at stamping out discrimination against black Americans, it also extends more broadly to what Justice Potter Stewart called “preference based on lineage.” Individuals are to be judged on their own merits, not by what their parents do, which is why the courts have applied heightened scrutiny to laws that punish children born out of wedlock, or whose parents came to this country illegally.

This is a great discussion. I actually think what will happen is that more institutions will implement policies that eliminate or highly monitor legacy or donor admissions regardless of this suit. New lawsuits will then sue the institutions for these policies. I say this thinking where the deep pockets lie for the years long litigation journey and the efforts to locally take over accreditation or board governance of institutions.
 
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This is a great discussion. I actually think what will happen is that more institutions will implement policies that eliminate or highly monitor legacy or donor admissions regardless of this suit. New lawsuits will then sue the institutions for these policies. I say this thinking where the deep pockets lie for the years long litigation journey and the efforts to locally take over accreditation or board governance of institutions.
Very true that colleges will now be forced to scrutinize their legacy policies. And cut back on their hubris a bit and be a little more open and honest with respect to their application processes as well as intentions, and perhaps realize that their supposed morality regarding using legacy as a consideration is more self-idealization. There is going to be a long wait for these lawsuits to ultimately make their way to SCOTUS for the majority of the justices to overrule the legacy admissions as unconstitutional- when interpreting these through the originalism lens of the constitution.
 
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Controversial topic. I get it. People are emotional and that is to be expected. However, stereotyping any ethnicity is unacceptable here and will result in immediate discipline. If this can't be a civil conversation it can't be an SDN conversation.
Agree. It seems Asians are being stereotyped as having poor communication skills. I'd also like to see the term "white privilege" put to rest. The greatest number of suicides in America are white males.
 
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I was one of those who made a serious blunder earlier with percentages vs raw numbers. Could you explain to me where I am wrong with the following reasoning:

The MCAT and GPA are among the only objective measures on an applicant's profile. Both have been shown to strongly correlate with medical student performance up to the highest percentiles. Top medical schools get many more applicants than they have seats. To get the students who are most likely to perform at the highest level in medical school (including during clerkships where they receive performance evaluations from actual physicians), MCAT and GPA should be the most important factors by far (as they currently are). That's not to say that they should be the only factors. Far from it.
First off, you should head into the medical student forum and see how people feel about clerkship evaluations.

Second, you've now shifted a bit to specify "top" medical schools that are swimming in high stat applications. In that case you are right, given that high standardized test scores are essentially *the* markers of academic performance in medicine, then selecting applicants with the highest initial performance on a high-stakes standardized test is a good move. And indeed, the schools that have a mission to education the next generation of academic subspecialists, field leaders, and department chairs take this approach with gusto. In fact, I doubt you could pry their adcoms off the MCAT scores of their applicants with a crowbar.

But what if your school's mission is to educate physicians who will go on to serve a specific geographic area, like eastern North Carolina or eastern Tennessee? At that point your major concern with metrics is good enough, as the rest of the application will be much more important to discern mission fit.

I do note that in Figure 14 of the AAMC report you linked earlier that 75% of students with MCATs below 492 receive a passing score on Step 2 CK. That's a MCAT range most schools would not go near. And once you get above 499-500 most everyone passes. That doesn't stop the average matriculant MCAT from being much higher.

When I sat on an admissions committee for the first time I had a great respect for the predictive power of metrics. I thought I could use numbers to divine the fate of each person who joined the class. In retrospect that was a pretty naive take. Look back at Figure 14 for a MCAT of 511. The 75th percentile Step 2 score is 257, the 25th percentile is 239. So for the same MCAT about a quarter of the students will have a Step score that puts them in contention for highly competitive residencies, and about a quarter will be hoping for a university IM spot in the upper midwest.

Point is, while there is a positive correlation between metrics and academic performance, the modest slope and high amount of variability within each score make these tools challenging to use when you're operating as most admissions committees do: evaluating one applicant at a time.

I just mean to say that those who insist that these measures are as worthless as height are being intellectually dishonest.
Perhaps I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing the argument that metrics are "worthless." Over the years I have heard cogent arguments that metrics do not define one's potential, and that there is a point of diminishing return for them that is well below the average numbers for matriculants. I think both are reasonable assertions.
 
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First off, you should head into the medical student forum and see how people feel about clerkship evaluations.

I daresay that anyone who thinks employee/student evals are the fairest way to measure your skill/suitability for the role has probably never worked a real job with performance evals done by their manager that talks to them twice a month and somehow is supposed to intimately know their strengths and weaknesses.
 
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No, I’m against legacy admissions. I’m just saying there’s no proof that ending legacy admissions will increase diversity, therefore those against it need a better statement with proof.
Ending legacy will not likely create more DEI. I would wager that the SCOTUS will rule for allowing legacy with some stipulations I would imagine.
 
I daresay that anyone who thinks employee/student evals are the fairest way to measure your skill/suitability for the role has probably never worked a real job with performance evals done by their manager that talks to them twice a month and somehow is supposed to intimately know their strengths and weaknesses.
Maybe I’ve been lucky with my boss, but this has absolutely not been the case for me. I’m in my second gap year now and have gotten very fair and thoughtful feedback from my boss not only in the course of our regular meetings, but also in the organization-mandated evals that he has to submit for me.

If people are so quick to defend the interview as a strong filter for applicants, I fail to see how directly working with an expert in the field for an extended period of time could possibly be a worse measure of an aspiring physician.
 
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First off, you should head into the medical student forum and see how people feel about clerkship evaluations.

Second, you've now shifted a bit to specify "top" medical schools that are swimming in high stat applications. In that case you are right, given that high standardized test scores are essentially *the* markers of academic performance in medicine, the selecting applicants with the highest initial performance on a high-stakes standardized test is a good move. And indeed, the schools that have a mission to education the next generation of academic subspecialists, field leaders, and department chairs take this approach with gusto. In fact, I doubt you could pry their adcoms off the MCAT scores of their applicants with a crowbar.

But what if your school's mission is to educate physicians who will go on to serve a specific geographic area, like eastern North Carolina or eastern Tennessee? At that point your major concern with metrics is good enough, as the rest of the application will be much more important to discern mission fit.

I do note that in Figure 14 of the AAMC report you linked earlier that 75% of students with MCATs below 492 receive a passing score on Step 2 CK. That's a MCAT range most schools would not go near. And once you get above 499-500 most everyone passes. That doesn't stop the average matriculant MCAT from being much higher.

When I sat on an admissions committee for the first time I had a great respect for the predictive power of metrics. I thought I could use numbers to divine the fate of each person who joined the class. In retrospect that was a pretty naive take. Look back at Figure 14 for a MCAT of 511. The 75th percentile Step 2 score is 257, the 25th percentile is 239. So for the same MCAT about a quarter of the students will have a Step score that puts them in contention for highly competitive residencies, and about a quarter will be hoping for a university IM spot in the upper midwest.

Point is, while there is a positive correlation between metrics and academic performance, the modest slope and high amount of variability within each score make these tools challenging to use when you're operating as most admissions committees do: evaluating one applicant at a time.


Perhaps I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing the argument that metrics are "worthless." Over the years I have heard cogent arguments that metrics do not define one's potential, and that there is a point of diminishing return for them that is well below the average numbers for matriculants. I think both are reasonable assertions.
Absolutely fair. Thank you for sharing your perspective. Reflecting on myself, I think I’ve always been too focused on the very top medical schools. I think it’s some unhealthy combination of ego, ambition, pride in the application I’ve built, and lingering bitterness from undergrad applications. Practically speaking, I know that admission to any accredited medical school would allow me to become a well-trained physician. I’ll try to keep that in mind as this cycle plays out.

Regarding scores, all of what you said makes sense to me. My only remaining gripe is the comparison to height. That really got on my nerves as someone who had to sacrifice a lot of time and sleep to achieve the results that I did on the MCAT while working a full-time job. Having gone through it recently, I felt that the MCAT was an excellent test not only of aptitude and content knowledge, but also grit, consistency, and level of investment in this grueling, decade-long path. I believe that this aspect of the MCAT is too often overlooked by those comparing this exam to other US standardized exams.

Edit: I don’t think a public forum is the best place to gather opinions on clerkships evals. Obviously, the most vocal groups would be the dissatisfied and disgruntled, even if they are in the minority. If people are really so dissatisfied with them, would the solution be to remove them altogether and base clerkship performance entirely on exam grades? That seems counter to what you and others have been saying about placing less emphasis on pure academics. I think they have their place in the med school curriculum the same way interviews have their place in med school admissions. Sure, they are subjective and likely influenced by a variety of individual and group biases. However, they are necessary to get a complete view of aspiring physicians beyond what can be gleaned from test scores alone.
 
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Maybe I’ve been lucky with my boss, but this has absolutely not been the case for me. I’m in my second gap year now and have gotten very fair and thoughtful feedback from my boss not only in the course of our regular meetings, but also in the organization-mandated evals that he has to submit for me.

If people are so quick to defend the interview as a strong filter for applicants, I fail to see how directly working with an expert in the field for an extended period of time could possibly be a worse measure of an aspiring physician.

Clerkship evaluations are basically attendings/residents giving evaluations to M3, the lowest member of the team of 5+ people, for the couple weeks they spend together. Keep in mind, there are hundreds of M3s and dozens of different attendings/residents for the each rotation, of which you randomly assigned to a few. There are few set grading scales/standards and expectations changed through the year where the first rotations expect less while later rotations expect more. And yeah, it is not the job priority of attendings and residents to care about a proper eval because M3 will go and will be gone after rotations. Therefore, some eval comments are lazy and unoriginal while others give good evals just because they really don't want trouble. The ironic thing is evaluators with a bad eval reputation means less work for the future while good evaluators will have more work. It depends on the schools and the residents/attending to do a good job of evaluation but they are so worried about their stuff, your evaluation is the last thing they worry about. In the end, the clerkship grades can be rather subjective and unless your performance was outstanding or terrible, it will be like a dice roll.

You better hope your residents are happy campers because their mood will likely affect your evals. If they are overworked and angry at the system, it would not be surprising if their displeasure overflows to expectations of you and your evals. It takes time to write a sincere good eval but its easy to do a cookie cutter one. The eval system in place at most schools is just not a good measure of students ability to work in a team/ability to be a good physician. They will definitely fail students who can't work well but for M3, it can be super random because the expectations of a M3 should be low but there is no set standard.
 
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Clerkship evaluations are basically attendings/residents giving evaluations to M3, the lowest member of the team of 5+ people, for the couple weeks they spend together. Keep in mind, there are hundreds of M3s and dozens of different attendings/residents for the each rotation, of which you randomly assigned to a few. There are few set grading scales/standards and expectations changed through the year where the first rotations expect less while later rotations expect more. And yeah, it is not the job priority of attendings and residents to care about a proper eval because M3 will go and will be gone after rotations. Therefore, some eval comments are lazy and unoriginal while others give good evals just because they really don't want trouble. The ironic thing is evaluators with a bad eval reputation means less work for the future while good evaluators will have more work. It depends on the schools and the residents/attending to do a good job of evaluation but they are so worried about their stuff, your evaluation is the last thing they worry about. In the end, the clerkship grades can be rather subjective and unless your performance was outstanding or terrible, it will be like a dice roll.

You better hope your residents are happy campers because their mood will likely affect your evals. If they are overworked and angry at the system, it would not be surprising if their displeasure overflows to expectations of you and your evals. It takes time to write a sincere good eval but its easy to do a cookie cutter one. The eval system in place at most schools is just not a good measure of students ability to work in a team/ability to be a good physician. They will definitely fail students who can't work well but for M3, it can be super random because the expectations of a M3 should be low but there is no set standard.
Can you explain to me how this differs in any way from the subjectivity of admissions interviews? I believe the same potential biases (e.g. mood of interviewer, timing of interview, etc) apply in that case, but I think we can all agree they are a vital component of the applicant evaluation process.
 
Can you explain to me how this differs in any way from the subjectivity of admissions interviews? I believe the same potential biases (e.g. mood of interviewer, timing of interview, etc) apply in that case, but I think we can all agree they are a vital component of the applicant evaluation process.

They are both subjective but the purposes are different. Interviews mostly filter out people who have issues with communication, empathy, lying, teamwork, etc. These issues will basically get you rejected. Although you can get an outstanding interview performance, they are rare and are not required for admission.

If you want honors for clerkship, you need to be the top % of evals depending on your school. That is going to be much more subjective and difficult especially when most med students have already been filtered to be "good potential" physicians. As for pass/fail, the interview and rest of medical school admission should have already filtered most of these people out. You have to truly mess up to fail an rotation by eval.

Neither the interview or clerkship are perfect but they have their set of purposes. It is much easier to figure out who had a bad interview compared to say who is doing above and beyond for a M3.

Additionally, people usually volunteer to be interviewers and have time/training to do it. Residents/Attendings are basically forced to do evals. They may or may not get adequate training.
 
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They are both subjective but the purposes are different. Interviews mostly filter out people who have issues with communication, empathy, lying, teamwork, etc. These issues will basically get you rejected. Although you can get an outstanding interview performance, they are rare and are not required for admission.

If you want honors for clerkship, you need to be the top % of evals depending on your school. That is going to be much more subjective and difficult especially when most med students have already been filtered to be "good potential" physicians. As for pass/fail, the interview and rest of medical school admission should have already filtered most of these people out. You have to truly mess up to fail an rotation by eval.

Neither the interview or clerkship are perfect but they have their set of purposes. It is much easier to figure out who had a bad interview compared to say who is doing above and beyond for a M3.

Additionally, people usually volunteer to be interviewers and have time/training to do it. Residents/Attendings are basically forced to do evals. They may or may not get adequate training.
Why do you need honors for evals? In much the same way as you don’t need a stellar interview to get into a solid medical school, you can still get good grades and get into a solid residency in a less competitive speciality without honors. In both cases, only the truly bad students will get bad evaluations that will meaningfully hurt their end results.

The point about the training of the people doing evaluations is a good one that I was not aware of. Perhaps more training like that should be required for academic physicians and residents who are responsible for clerkship evaluations.
 
Why do you need honors for evals? In much the same way as you don’t need a stellar interview to get into a solid medical school, you can still get good grades and get into a solid residency in a less competitive speciality without honors. In both cases, only the truly bad students will get bad evaluations that will meaningfully hurt their end results.

The point about the training of the people doing evaluations is a good one that I was not aware of. Perhaps more training like that should be required for academic physicians and residents who are responsible for clerkship evaluations.
You definitely wants honors for your specialty of interest especially if it is competitive. People aren't complaining about failing clerkships but that the honors criteria and evals are too random. One attending might think 3/5 is average while one may think 4/5 is average for this school.

True, honors is not necessary for some but by your same logic that you can go to a less competitive specialty, you can also go to less highly ranked/competitive medical school.

In the end, people will definitely get a rejection for a bad interview but failing a rotation because of clerkship evals is really rare. The higher end of what is outstanding or great is more variable and subjective in both cases partly because expectations are not standardized. I am not saying the med school interviews are perfect; I definitely experienced hiccups in the process, but they are necessary to filter out people who are not ready for medical school. Clerkships evals on the other hand rarely fail students but honors criteria isn't as predictable which can be frustrating to students.
 
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You definitely wants honors for your specialty of interest especially if it is competitive. People aren't complaining about failing clerkships but that the honors criteria and evals are too random. One attending might think 3/5 is average while one may think 4/5 is average for this school.

True, honors is not necessary for some but by your same logic that you can go to a less competitive specialty, you can also go to less highly ranked/competitive medical school.

In the end, people will definitely get a rejection for a bad interview but failing a rotation because of clerkship evals is really rare. The higher end of what is outstanding or great is more variable and subjective in both cases partly because expectations are not standardized. I am not saying the med school interviews are perfect; I definitely experienced hiccups in the process, but they are necessary to filter out people who are not ready for medical school. Clerkships evals on the other hand rarely fail students but honors criteria isn't as predictable which can be frustrating to students.
I think the obsession with competitive specialities is just as damaging and unhealthy as my self-admitted obsession with top schools. If people rarely fail rotations, that is a good thing as it means that the med school admissions process did a good job of filtering out the very worst aspirants among us. Those who remain should, I feel, not be going into medicine attached to a single specialty but with the attitude of finding the ones that allow them to maximize the use of their unique talents and best serve their future patients.
 
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I think the obsession with competitive specialities is just as damaging and unhealthy as my self-admitted obsession with top schools. If people rarely fail rotations, that is a good thing as it means that the med school admissions process did a good job of filtering out the very worst aspirants among us. Those who remain should, I feel, not be going into medicine attached to a single specialty but with the attitude of finding the ones that allow them to maximize the use of their unique talents and best serve their future patients.

Competitive specialties have very limited slots and a certain lifestyle/practice. If you really want to do it, you have to demonstrate why you are among the best applicants. As such, there is immense pressure for getting connections, research, and grades. Medicine is very diverse from primary care, all different organs specialties, surgeries, and more. For most people, what they are best at is going to be what they are interested and comfortable in, after all motivation is key to improving oneself. And especially after a long 10+ year post-secondary school journey, many students get jaded and just want something suitable for them particularly with mountains of debt. To ask people, even physicians, to keep sacrificing themselves for others can get unhealthy. However, if your goal is to benefit yourself from the start, then there is little chance you will prioritize others in the end.
 
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Competitive specialties have very limited slots and a certain lifestyle/practice. If you really want to do it, you have to demonstrate why you are among the best applicants. As such, there is immense pressure for getting connections, research, and grades. Medicine is very diverse from primary care, all different organs specialties, surgeries, and more. For most people, what they are best at is going to be what they are interested and comfortable in, after all motivation is key to improving oneself. And especially after a long 10+ year post-secondary school journey, many students get jaded and just want something suitable for them particularly with mountains of debt. To ask people, even physicians, to keep sacrificing themselves for others can get unhealthy. However, if your goal is to benefit yourself from the start, then there is little chance you will prioritize others in the end.
I could certainly see myself getting more jaded over time. However, physicians of any medical specialty (even peds) earn higher salaries than both of my parents combined ever did in a VHCOL area. That’s why I find it hard to believe I would ever become so out of touch that I would feel as if I was truly sacrificing something by choosing a less competitive specialty. When so many people do not get to choose what they do (e.g. my mom does not have a bachelor degree) and are paid poorly to boot, I‘ll get to be a physician and serve patients. That’s what matters to me at the end of the day.

I feel that your argument here mirrors the same immaturity as my ambition to enter a top school. Will my lifestyle and future prospects be better at a T5 school with true P/F including clerkships? Undoubtedly. Does it matter when getting into any school will ultimately lead me to a cushier lifestyle than I’ve ever experienced before? Not really. Do we still stubbornly strive for these things and get frustrated by the use of subjective filters along the way? Yes. As we’ve discussed though, using only objective criteria is unfortunately impossible at present. That’s the imperfect world we live in.
 
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I could certainly see myself getting more jaded over time. However, physicians of any medical specialty (even peds) earn higher salaries than both of my parents combined ever did in a VHCOL area. That’s why I find it hard to believe I would ever become so out of touch that I would feel as if I was truly sacrificing something by choosing a less competitive specialty. When so many people do not get to choose what they do (e.g. my mom does not have a bachelor degree) and are paid poorly to boot, I‘ll get to be a physician and serve patients. That’s what matters to me at the end of the day.

I feel that your argument here mirrors the same immaturity as my ambition to enter a top school. Will my lifestyle and future prospects be better at a T5 school with true P/F including clerkships? Undoubtedly. Does it ultimately matter when getting into any school will ultimately lead me to a cushier lifestyle than I’ve ever experienced before? Not really. Do we still stubbornly strive for these things and get frustrated by the use of subjective filters along the way? Yes. As we’ve discussed though, using only objective criteria is unfortunately impossible at present. That’s the imperfect world we live in.
The jadedness is more complicated than that. The specialty itself is one aspect but there is also location and family that people value. Some specialties are not great for these aspects. And when you become a medical student, you basically expect to graduate and be among a group of others who will likely be highly successful in their life. However, during medical school, you may be paying a high tuition and living a minimal lifestyle. Once you start residency, you work for overtime for barely enough money. When you are finally done, they say "comparison is the thief of joy" and that is going to be especially true when you see others get paid more than you while working less (both in medicine and outside medicine). Of course your view that things will be better than your life so far is still correct but people will tend to lose that perspective when offer the choice of 200k vs 400k. After all, you are still helping others in competitive specialties just that there are supply/demand issue.
 
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