Supreme Court Ruling, Race based admissions.

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Can you point out who the mods have taken action against? All of the accounts marked as paused or on probation were marked as such before this thread started. I think the only account nuked was someone using a sock puppet account, which is very clearly agains the rules.

Anti-Asian sentiment is a huge problem in the US, and I’m not trying to underplay it. But your suggestion that the mods are participating doesn’t seem warranted.

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I've been debating posting this for the past day or so since more__advanced original post (and the following mod edits), but a day later it's still bugging me a lot, and I ultimately decided to post this, and stop lurking on the thread.

As an Asian American, it's been incredibly frustrating to see comments like this and the double standard in moderation in this thread. There are multiple examples of Asian Americans posting in this thread who are getting put on probation or outright banned by the mods. Their comments were extremely civil compared to the original post by more__advanced quoted above. more__advanced original post was downright vitriolic, yet they get met with a gentle warning and a moderator editing their post. Had an Asian posted that about any other ethnicity (Black, Hispanic, Native American, or even White people) they would've been insta-banned. Why is the 'punishment' for more__advanced (if you can even call it punishment) so disproportionately light? Why is it okay to punch down on Asian Americans (read: why is Asian hate ok) in this thread?

And then there were posters earlier in this thread trying to say that the model minority myth is good for Asian Americans and that Asian Americans are privileged and can't face any racism. Y'all are probably the same people who parrot that the Atlanta Spa Shooting in 2021 was about sex addiction rather than an Asian hate crime, as if me just existing in this country is sexual

To the mods and the anti-asian posters in this thread: just because you choose not to recognize (read: ignore) it as such, doesn't mean that it's not racism against Asian Americans.

Ultimately, it all comes down to political strength. When Asian Americans become a significant enough voting bloc to tip elections, then their voices would be recognized by both political parties. In the meantime, personally, I think that conservatives better support and align with Asian Americans than liberals…most of the medical school establishment is unfortunately heavily liberal leaning and hence this disparate treatment of Asian Americans. After all, it took a conservative majority SCOTUS (6-3) to deliver for Asian Americans, while the 3 liberal justices and the Biden administration solicitor general could not care less about Asian American discrimination. Maybe, all liberal-leaning Asian Americans need to revisit their political ideologies for 2024 and beyond!
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Ultimately, it all comes down to political strength. When Asian Americans become a significant enough voting bloc to tip elections, then their voices would be recognized by both political parties. In the meantime, personally, I would think that conservatives better support and align with Asian Americans than liberals…most of the medical school establishment is unfortunately heavily liberal leaning and hence this disparate treatment of Asian Americans. After all, it took a conservative majority SCOTUS (6-3) to deliver for Asian Americans, while the 3 liberal justices and the Biden administration solicitor general could not care less about Asian American discrimination. Maybe, all liberal-leaning Asian Americans need to revisit their political leanings for 2024 and beyond!
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I doubt Asian Americans will get significant political influence nationwide in the U.S simply based on the relative population size. Because of that, they are mostly ignored by most political groups.

So the conservatives sided with Asian-American this time. How about last time with coronavirus? How about other issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights, which are human rights IMO? The real sad truth is no party really cares about Asian Americans because we are unlikely to influence the national politics. They simply use us as needed to highlight a "model minority" or "china flu" to rally the other groups. If they need to sacrifice us to get more votes from another group, they won't mind. It's the game of a two party system, appeal to the larger groups as they decide the outcome.

Do you think either party fundamentally cares about the interests of asian-americans? I think it is simple, if your interests align with their voter base, they will help you and use you. If not, they will abandon you and isolate you. I really don't think being asian-american should sway your vote heavily because neither party prioritizes your race's vote. Broader issues are going to be more at play.
 
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I doubt Asian Americans will get significant political influence nationwide in the U.S simply based on the relative population size. Because of that, they are mostly ignored by most political groups.

So the conservatives sided with Asian-American this time. How about last time with coronavirus? How about other issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights, which are human rights IMO? The real sad truth is no party really cares about Asian Americans because we are unlikely to influence the national politics. They simply use us as needed to highlight a "model minority" or "china flu" to rally the other groups. If they need to sacrifice us to get more votes from another group, they won't mind. It's the game of a two party system, appeal to the larger groups as they decide the outcome.

Do you think either party fundamentally cares about the interests of asian-americans? I think it is simple, if your interests align with their voter base, they will help you and use you. If not, they will abandon you and isolate you. I really don't think being asian-american should sway your vote heavily because neither party prioritizes your race's vote. Broader issues are going to be more at play.
Thank you for such a balanced post. What you say is perfectly true at this moment, but may not necessarily be true in a few years from now. And more importantly, if we are focusing on the topic of higher education/ medical profession alone, (which is why we are all here), the conservative ideology is more aligned and supportive of Asian Americans. ( compared to the liberals who are focused on eliminating standardized testing, support overt discrimination in the name of equity, preach inclusion and diversity while excluding select minorities, minimizing struggles and trials of some minorities etc… what I would like to refer to as ”the Asian-American penalty”!)
Yes, I agree with you that there are many more broader issues at play when people choose their representatives in elections, however, it is clear which party is on the right side of education for Asian Americans!
 
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Thank you for such a balanced post. What you say is perfectly true at this moment, but may not necessarily be true in a few years from now. And more importantly, if we are focusing on the topic of higher education/ medical profession alone, (which is why we are all here), the conservative ideology is more aligned and supportive of Asian Americans. ( compared to the liberals who are focused on eliminating standardized testing, support overt discrimination in the name of equity, preach inclusion and diversity while excluding select minorities, minimizing struggles and trials of some minorities etc… what I would like to refer to as ”the Asian-American penalty”!)
Yes, I agree with you that there are many more broader issues at play when people choose their representatives in elections, however, it is clear which party is on the right side of education for Asian Americans!
Politicians will pit US vs China for years to come especially republicans whose heavy manufacturing jobs have continued to dwindle, midwest and southeast. Politicians know they will get better turnout from voters on these kind of issues than education.
 
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Thank you for such a balanced post. What you say is perfectly true at this moment, but may not necessarily be true in a few years from now.
Just as things might change in a few years, there’s always a chance they’ll stay the same, after all you’re talking about siding with conservatives who don’t like change.
And more importantly, if we are focusing on the topic of higher education/ medical profession alone, (which is why we are all here), the conservative ideology is more aligned and supportive of Asian Americans. ( compared to the liberals who are focused on eliminating standardized testing, support overt discrimination in the name of equity, preach inclusion and diversity while excluding select minorities, minimizing struggles and trials of some minorities etc… what I would like to refer to as ”the Asian-American penalty”!)
Yes, I agree with you that there are many more broader issues at play when people choose their representatives in elections, however, it is clear which party is on the right side of education for Asian Americans!
Things you have said seem inconsiderate. You seem to only (or mostly) care about how well Asians do when you should be caring about the country as a whole.

AA is a good thing because it helps the underrepresented progress. Asians are overrepresented and are doing well. Not all Asians are doing well, but there are way more Asians doing well than are Hispanics and blacks. It is a very good thing for the country (everyone, including Asians) when Hispanics and blacks begin to progress at the rate Asians/whites are. Hispanic/black progression benefits Asians and everyone else. That’s the bigger picture that for some reason you and other AA opposers here aren’t able to get despite many attempts to get you to understand.

You keep making it seem like Asians are being targeted (you might not be meaning to make it sound that way, but believe me that’s what it sounds like). Nobody is targeting Asians. AA simply makes space. If a few Asians didn’t get into a city school because they let Hispanics and blacks in, I doubt you’d complain. Most AA opposers oppose AA because of their obsession over a handful of schools (top unis) that are already overrepresented by Asians and whites.

All people who are pro AA have said is that AA is trying to make things more equitable. One Asian doesn’t get into Harvard/others and you’re ready to swing a whole racial group to the Republicans. It obviously isn’t only one Asian not getting in, but it might as well be when you look at how many Asians are getting in as opposed to blacks and Hispanics.

An AA opposer here said that Asians came up from their struggles in the US, as well as Jews, so blacks can do it too. Basically, they’re saying that suffering is suffering; one person’s suffering is equal to someone else’s. No. That is not true. You can’t compare the suffering of blacks to anyone in the US and if you think that, everyone should be thankful for essays and interviews.

Blacks were once enslaved. Asians came to the US to work, voluntarily. Blacks came against their will. They didn’t even know why or where those ships were taking them. For years, whites in the US have been taught to look down upon blacks. When something like that is taught for years, it becomes a part of culture. Imagine living in a country where it is literally the culture of the majority to look down upon your people. Asians never had such a problem. Yeah sure, Asians deal with childish remarks and racism, but it doesn’t compare to what blacks faced and still deal with today… not even close. (I know that many whites today are not racist and are very aware of these things, I’m speaking in historical terms, but then again this cultural racism I’m referring to does still exist today.)

A big reason as to why Asians progressed in the US is because many who came were already educated and had money. So again, nobody can say, “well Asians did it so blacks can too.” The progression of the Asian population was greatly assisted by those who came with money.

Three of the justices who voted against AA were appointed by Donald Trump who went to extremist organizations (the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation) for advice on who to choose. In my opinion and in the opinion of many (and factual in many cases) Trump appointed three very partisan justices, and because of that, AA is gone.

SC justices should be appointed because a president feels that they’ll be impartial on all issues, not so that they can do whatever said president wants them to do, but that’s literally what Trump did which makes those three justices illegitimate thereby making whatever they vote against or for illegitimate. The quote below is from the article: Oppose the Confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court of the United States - The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights

“In a 2016 presidential debate, he (Trump) said that his Supreme Court appointees would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. He said: ‘If we put another two or perhaps three justices on, that is really what will happen. That will happen automatically in my opinion. Because I am putting pro-life justices on the Court.’”

He put them there so that they can vote what he told them to vote. What’s the point of having a SC if that’s the case? If it weren’t for those 3 justices, I believe there’s a good chance AA would still exist as well as the other things they got rid of.
 
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Things you have said seem inconsiderate. You seem to only (or mostly) care about how well Asians do when you should be caring about the country as a whole.

AA is a good thing because it helps the underrepresented progress. Asians are overrepresented and are doing well. Not all Asians are doing well, but there are way more Asians doing well than are Hispanics and blacks. It is a very good thing for the country (everyone, including Asians) when Hispanics and blacks begin to progress at the rate Asians/whites are. Hispanic/black progression benefits Asians and everyone else. That’s the bigger picture that for some reason you and other AA opposers here aren’t able to get despite many attempts to get you to understand.
Are Blacks and Hispanics "progressing" under AA? Actually progression would be seeing the reading/maths gap closing between the race, or seeing the same average MCAT among applicants of various races. AA is not progress. If anything, it removes the incentive to achieve actual progress.
You keep making it seem like Asians are being targeted (you might not be meaning to make it sound that way, but believe me that’s what it sounds like). Nobody is targeting Asians. AA simply makes space. If a few Asians didn’t get into a city school because they let Hispanics and blacks in, I doubt you’d complain. Most AA opposers oppose AA because of their obsession over a handful of schools (top unis) that are already overrepresented by Asians and whites.

All people who are pro AA have said is that AA is trying to make things more equitable. One Asian doesn’t get into Harvard/others and you’re ready to swing a whole racial group to the Republicans. It obviously isn’t only one Asian not getting in, but it might as well be when you look at how many Asians are getting in as opposed to blacks and Hispanics.
What you said here is perhaps the best argument for why Asians should stick together and narrowly care for their own self-interest. Look at how casually you suggest that Asians "make space" for other races as if this is completely normal and acceptable!
An AA opposer here said that Asians came up from their struggles in the US, as well as Jews, so blacks can do it too. Basically, they’re saying that suffering is suffering; one person’s suffering is equal to someone else’s. No. That is not true. You can’t compare the suffering of blacks to anyone in the US and if you think that, everyone should be thankful for essays and interviews.

Blacks were once enslaved. Asians came to the US to work, voluntarily. Blacks came against their will. They didn’t even know why or where those ships were taking them. For years, whites in the US have been taught to look down upon blacks. When something like that is taught for years, it becomes a part of culture. Imagine living in a country where it is literally the culture of the majority to look down upon your people.
If today is 1823, then there are Blacks that came to the US against their will. But it is 2023. Today, there are no oppressions unique to Blacks. If there are extraordinary disadvantages, it ought to be assessed on an individual level.
Asians never had such a problem. Yeah sure, Asians deal with childish remarks and racism, but it doesn’t compare to what blacks faced and still deal with today… not even close. (I know that many whites today are not racist and are very aware of these things, I’m speaking in historical terms, but then again this cultural racism I’m referring to does still exist today.)
Some "childish remarks and racism" that Asians routinely face:
  • not able to speak English, or speak it with a heavy accent
  • innumerable opportunities being denied because of the above
  • being considered perpetual outsiders
  • being considered foreign agents
  • have effectively 0 national political power
 
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Are Blacks and Hispanics "progressing" under AA? Actually progression would be seeing the reading/maths gap closing between the race, or seeing the same average MCAT among applicants of various races. AA is not progress. If anything, it removes the incentive to achieve actual progress.
When I mention AA, I am referring to every area that it assists people in, not only in schools and yes, blacks and Hispanics are progressing under AA. When I say progress, I mean advancement in all areas.
What you said here is perhaps the best argument for why Asians should stick together and narrowly care for their own self-interest. Look at how casually you suggest that Asians "make space" for other races as if this is completely normal and acceptable!
When I said make space, I was referring to institutions. Asians, whites, blacks… they don’t make space, the institutions do via AA. How can you make space in something you don’t control? The adcoms here have said that the only ones who determine anything about selecting applicants are admissions. Only admissions can determine who is deserving. The seats belong to the schools.
If today is 1823, then there are Blacks that came to the US against their will. But it is 2023. Today, there are no oppressions unique to Blacks. If there are extraordinary disadvantages, it ought to be assessed on an individual level.
This shows that you lack an understanding/knowledge of systemic racism and other types. Not sure you meant what you said but that’s what it seems like.
Are you serious? Let me educate you on some "childish remarks and racism" that Asians routinely face:
  • not able to speak English, or speak it with a heavy accent
  • innumerable opportunities being denied because of the above
  • being considered perpetual outsiders
  • being considered foreign agents
  • have effectively 0 national political power
No, let me say that in a different way: Asians face childish remarks. Asians also face racism.

I wasn’t downgrading the level of racism Asians face.
 
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Yes, I agree with you that there are many more broader issues at play when people choose their representatives in elections, however, it is clear which party is on the right side of education for Asian Americans!
I have to point out the republican interest is not getting more people more educated, in fact, I would argue it is the opposite. Why would they encourage people to get educated and likely be more liberal ideologically?
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/04/26/a-wider-ideological-gap-between-more-and-less-educated-adults/
Highly educated adults – particularly those who have attended graduate school – are far more likely than those with less education to take predominantly liberal positions across a range of political values. And these differences have increased over the past two decades.

Republicans want to reduce or eliminate the department of education. Certainty, this will not help the poor K-12 education in the U.S. Teachers are already being paid low salaries in impoverished areas and it will get worse when funding is cut.
FACT SHEET: House Republican Proposals Hurt Children, Students, and Borrowers, and Undermine Education | U.S. Department of Education

I would not be surprised if republicans make education more expensive and reduce access to higher education. Asian-Americans (or anyone) may benefit temporarily if they are wealthy but struggle more if they cannot afford higher education. In that case, its back to wealthy privilege for higher education. Who knows if they want to remove things like evolution and allow more religious aspects in school, things they have tried in the past. Something along the lines of "Nothing says you can't pray at school" while encouraging students to do so with peer pressure influencing those who do not. Or teaching creationism alongside evolution. I would not be very surprised if they decide to mess with other aspects of the curriculum if they could. I really do not see higher education or education as a whole getting better under conservative rule but that is my opinion. Feel free to express yours.
 
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Deleted by moderator. Personal attacks are against ToS.
 
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I have to point out the republican interest is not getting more people more educated, in fact, I would argue it is the opposite. Why would they encourage people to get educated and likely be more liberal ideologically?
A Wider Ideological Gap Between More and Less Educated Adults


Republicans want to reduce or eliminate the department of education. Certainty, this will not help the poor K-12 education in the U.S. Teachers are already being paid low salaries in impoverished areas and it will get worse when funding is cut.
FACT SHEET: House Republican Proposals Hurt Children, Students, and Borrowers, and Undermine Education | U.S. Department of Education

I would not be surprised if republicans make education more expensive and reduce access to higher education. Asian-Americans (or anyone) may benefit temporarily if they are wealthy but struggle more if they cannot afford higher education. In that case, its back to wealthy privilege for higher education. Who knows if they want to remove things like evolution and allow more religious aspects in school, things they have tried in the past. Something along the lines of "Nothing says you can't pray at school" while encouraging students to do so with peer pressure influencing those who do not. Or teaching creationism alongside evolution. I would not be very surprised if they decide to mess with other aspects of the curriculum if they could. I really do not see higher education or education as a whole getting better under conservative rule but that is my opinion. Feel free to express yours.
Favoring School choice for parents and opposing Teachers unions who have failed our kids is sensible. Creationism should not be taught in school, and that applies to Critical race theory too. Discriminating against LGBT is plain wrong, just as performing Gender reaffirming surgery on minors is. Banning abortion is anti-women, just as allowing Trans-women to compete in women’s sports is.

Education and affirmative action have been discussed enough and more here. I really don’t think conservative ideology is bad for Asian Americans any more than liberal ideology, and given the blatant racial stereotyping and discrimination in education for Asian Americans, the choice is clear IMHO.
If you really want meritocracy, fairness and common sense in education, vote for conservatives.
 
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Controversial topic. I get it. People are emotional and that is to be expected. However, stereotyping any ethnicity is unacceptable here and will result in immediate discipline. If this can't be a civil conversation it can't be an SDN conversation.
I agree with this but I have noticed a lot of anti blackness in this thread that was rarely called out (e.g. “Asian Americans work harder than URM/ Asian Americans earned it” etc.) However, when I called it out, I received a lot of negative feedback. Let’s just make sure we aren’t stereotyping from all sides here.
 
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The Supreme Court decision will not affect IF a URM applicant is accepted to a medical school but rather WHERE they are accepted. It is mainly the top tier schools that will be affected, For example, a top 20 school has 200 new students every year and 40 are URM (20%-the same percentage of URM that comprise all medical students). If 20 are above the 10th percentile for MCAT or GPA they will still be admitted since it would be difficult to legally challenge against an applicant who is at the 30th percentile. If there are 20 below the 10th percentile perhaps the school could still admit 8 of those but the other 12 would be rejected. Those 12 though have good stats and their MCAT scores, though below the 10th percentile for a top tier school, would be fine for a lower tier school or a state public school. Some lower tier schools and state public school would be under legal pressure to not admit students below the 10th percentile and these applicants may not be admitted to any MD school. For example, there are approximately 2,000 applicants admitted each year who identify as black or African American. If you look at the GPA-MCAT grid the majority of those with MCAT scores less than 503 may not be admitted to a MD school and this could be as many as 400 of those 2,000. That would be a large decline in the number of African American students at MD schools. What happens to those 400 ? They attend DO schools instead. DO schools only have 3% of their students (14% of the population is African American) who are African American. This is not because of discrimination against African American applicants but because most qualified African American applicants attend MD schools. So those 400 will attend a DO schools and there are some DO schools where the median MCAT scores are in the 498 to 502 range, so the acceptance of those 400 could not be legally challenged.
 
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there are approximately 2,000 applicants admitted each year who identify as black or African American. If you look at the GPA-MCAT grid the majority of those with MCAT scores less than 503 may not be admitted to a MD school and this could be as many as 400 of those 2,000. That would be a large decline in the number of African American students at MD schools.
Those 400 seats (out of 19,000+) now open to "the best" non-Black applicants will barely put a dent in the 20,000+ currently out in the cold due to a lack of seats relative to the number of applicants.
 
The Supreme Court decision will not affect IF a URM applicant is accepted to a medical school but rather WHERE they are accepted. It is mainly the top tier schools that will be affected, For example, a top 20 school has 200 new students every year and 40 are URM (20%-the same percentage of URM that comprise all medical students). If 20 are above the 10th percentile for MCAT or GPA they will still be admitted since it would be difficult to legally challenge against an applicant who is at the 30th percentile. If there are 20 below the 10th percentile perhaps the school could still admit 8 of those but the other 12 would be rejected. Those 12 though have good stats and their MCAT scores, though below the 10th percentile for a top tier school, would be fine for a lower tier school or a state public school. Some lower tier schools and state public school would be under legal pressure to not admit students below the 10th percentile and these applicants may not be admitted to any MD school. For example, there are approximately 2,000 applicants admitted each year who identify as black or African American. If you look at the GPA-MCAT grid the majority of those with MCAT scores less than 503 may not be admitted to a MD school and this could be as many as 400 of those 2,000. That would be a large decline in the number of African American students at MD schools. What happens to those 400 ? They attend DO schools instead. DO schools only have 3% of their students (14% of the population is African American) who are African American. This is not because of discrimination against African American applicants but because most qualified African American applicants attend MD schools. So those 400 will attend a DO schools and there are some DO schools where the median MCAT scores are in the 498 to 502 range, so the acceptance of those 400 could not be legally challenged.
Would this apply to a URM candidate with an MCAT above a t20 school's 10th percentile but a gpa below the school's 10th percentile and an otherwise strong app? Also, would this be 10th percentile of applicants or of matriculants?
 
Would this apply to a URM candidate with an MCAT above a t20 school's 10th percentile but a gpa below the school's 10th percentile and an otherwise strong app? Also, would this be 10th percentile of applicants or of matriculants?
I based it on matriculants. No one knows how each school will evaluate GPA and MCAT.
 
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Those 400 seats (out of 19,000+) now open to "the best" non-Black applicants will barely put a dent in the 20,000+ currently out in the cold due to a lack of seats relative to the number of applicants.
In another 5 years all of this may not matter for medical student applicants. With 7 new MD schools and at least 7 new DO schools that will be approved in the coming 2 years, medical schools will have a hard time filling their classes with qualified applicants (especially the newer DO schools). MD schools are on track to have 24,500 1st year students and DO schools are on track to have 12,500 1st year students in another 5 years. That is 37,000 1st year medical students. There are only on average 39,000 first time MD applicants every year. More than 70% of DO applicants also apply to MD schools so that 70% are included in the MD number. There are approximately 6,000 1st time DO applicants tha do no t apply to MD schools . So 45,000 1st time applicants every year and 37,000 will eventually be accepted. That is over an 80% acceptance rate. Anyone with a GPA over 3.0 and a MCAT of at least 498 will be accepted to a MD or DO school. Hopefully, interest in medicine will remain high. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there were fewer than 25,000 1st time applicants. The baby bust generation (those born 2008 and later) will be applying in 2030 so the decline in applicants could start then.
 
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In another 5 years all of this may not matter for medical student applicants. With 7 new MD schools and at least 7 new DO schools that will be approved in the coming 2 years, medical schools will have a hard time filling their classes with qualified applicants (especially the newer DO schools). MD schools are on track to have 24,500 1st year students and DO schools are on track to have 12,500 1st year students in another 5 years. That is 37,000 1st year medical students. There are only on average 39,000 first time MD applicants every year. More than 70% of DO applicants also apply to MD schools so that 70% are included in the MD number. There are approximately 6,000 1st time DO applicants tha do no t apply to MD schools . So 45,000 1st time applicants every year and 37,000 will eventually be accepted. That is over an 80% acceptance rate. Anyone with a GPA over 3.0 and a MCAT of at least 498 will be accepted to a MD or DO school. Hopefully, interest in medicine will remain high. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there were fewer than 25,000 1st time applicants. The baby bust generation (those born 2008 and later) will be applying in 2030 so the decline in applicants could start then.

Based on these demographic shifts do you see medicine potentially going down the path of law where students have to go to a
"top 14" in order to feel confident about being able to obtain a job? I have read in the past about how law school and pharmacy schools accepting most applicants led to a poorer job market. However I have also seen/read about how there will be a lot of physicians retiring in the next decade or two. Not to mention that residencies seem to be the biggest bottleneck and that does not seem to be increasing at the moment. Sorry for rambling but would appreciate your perspective. Thanks!
 
Based on these demographic shifts do you see medicine potentially going down the path of law where students have to go to a
"top 14" in order to feel confident about being able to obtain a job? I have read in the past about how law school and pharmacy schools accepting most applicants led to a poorer job market. However I have also seen/read about how there will be a lot of physicians retiring in the next decade or two. Not to mention that residencies seem to be the biggest bottleneck and that does not seem to be increasing at the moment. Sorry for rambling but would appreciate your perspective. Thanks!
The job market for US MD and DO graduates will not change. The limiting factor is the number of residency positions and with 36,000 potentiall MD and DO graduates the number of residency positions may only slightly exceed 36,000. US IMG from Caribbean schools will no longer exist since those students will have no need to go to a Caribbean school with all the new 1st year medical school positions. Non American IMG will be crowded out of the residency positions.
 
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If there is any drop in the number of black and Hispanic matriculants to MD schools, I believe it will be only temporary. I am very confident that they will raise their game and their average gpa/mcat will go up.
 
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If there is any drop in the number of black and Hispanic matriculants to MD schools, I believe it will be only temporary. I am very confident that they will raise their game and their average gpa/mcat will go up.
This? This is a perfect example of the anti-blackness @KoolGirlKaye123 described just a few posts ago. You're perpetuating the idea that Black and Hispanic applicants need to "raise their game" or are unqualified.

I agree with this but I have noticed a lot of anti blackness in this thread that was rarely called out (e.g. “Asian Americans work harder than URM/ Asian Americans earned it” etc.) However, when I called it out, I received a lot of negative feedback. Let’s just make sure we aren’t stereotyping from all sides here.
 
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This? This is a perfect example of the anti-blackness @KoolGirlKaye123 described just a few posts ago. You're perpetuating the idea that Black and Hispanic applicants need to "raise their game" or are unqualified.
Thanks for catching that too. It's absolutely WILD
 
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NYT group of articles/ opinions

How to Fix College Admissions Now Opinion | How to Fix College Admissions Now
First article says
—-
RACE-BASED AFFIRMATIVE ACTIONprograms were never expected to last forever.

In the early 1960s, Whitney Young of the Urban League called for “a decade of discrimination in favor of Negro youth.” In the 1970s, Justice Thurgood Marshall argued for a century of race-conscious affirmative action. Last week, the U.S. Supreme Court essentially came down in the middle: Some 55 years after the advent of racial affirmative action programs in higher education, the court brought the practice to an end.

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Problem is tough to end any of these programs and people expect them to continue forever since racism or discrimination with never go away completely. Indian constitution had affirmative action (strict quotas) for 10 years for so called untouchables and tribes but after 75 years those quotas not only continue to exist but expanded to other classes and there are No limitations based on income or social standing.
 
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This? This is a perfect example of the anti-blackness @KoolGirlKaye123 described just a few posts ago. You're perpetuating the idea that Black and Hispanic applicants need to "raise their game" or are unqualified.
It was well documented when AAMC published tables of applicants and matriculants by GPA and MCAT by race that as a group Black and Hispanic applicants had smaller proportions of applicants in the upper right quadrant and more in the lower left. This is not to say that they are "unqualified" but if anything but the top 43% will be labeled "inferior" ... what would any reasonable applicant do?

There are far more "qualified" applicants than there are seats. One argument is that grades and scores trump all else and that is the definition of "the best". Others would observe that above a given threshold (which is relatively low - maybe 510/5.60), everyone is academically qualified. Where do we go from there? If it is going to be that LizzyM score, however flawed (I don't even use it anymore -- the math got wonky after the MCAT scoring system changed) is the only thing, then yes, everyone who isn't already 4.0/527 is going to have to up their game.
 
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If there is any drop in the number of black and Hispanic matriculants to MD schools, I believe it will be only temporary. I am very confident that they will raise their game and their average gpa/mcat will go up.
Up the game meaning focus more on gpa and MCAT to be competitive than ECs? If anyone thinks they don’t need high MCAT or gpa then they won’t put an effort regardless of race. My nephew is in a BSMD program and scored very low in MCAT since school doesn’t have high requirement. He is doing well in medical school though. I think we are reading too much into each other’s comments.
 
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It was well documented when AAMC published tables of applicants and matriculants by GPA and MCAT by race that as a group Black and Hispanic applicants had smaller proportions of applicants in the upper right quadrant and more in the lower left. This is not to say that they are "unqualified" but if anything but the top 43% will be labeled "inferior" ... what would any reasonable applicant do?

There are far more "qualified" applicants than there are seats. One argument is that grades and scores trump all else and that is the definition of "the best". Others would observe that above a given threshold (which is relatively low - maybe 510/5.60), everyone is academically qualified. Where do we go from there? If it is going to be that LizzyM score, however flawed (I don't even use it anymore -- the math got wonky after the MCAT scoring system changed) is the only thing, then yes, everyone who isn't already 4.0/527 is going to have to up their game.
I'm not disagreeing with what applicants might need to do, but I think the wording of the post I highlighted has a strong bias in it, and it echos similar comments that have been made that suggest that Black and Hispanic cultures "don't value education" or "need to pull themselves up" and other comments that indicate a bias against particular racial and ethnic groups based on achievement.

In response to your second paragraph, I'll be honest in that from my perspective I would prefer to see applicants "up their game" in ways that are more likely to impact their effectiveness as physicians, but I'm also not in your position at a medical school: I'm in the position of training students and setting them up to succeed in medical school.

I think if scores are going to be a more important part of qualifications, then we will need to increasingly grapple with who our standardized tests were designed for, and who does well on them. This includes the MCAT, but it's also been prominent in discussions of GRE scores for graduate programs, and ACT/SAT scores for undergraduate admissions. Standardized tests (and multiple choice exams generally) are often necessary, but are a poor proxy for measuring understanding of content.

One other thing that's been mentioned here and I think is worth repeating over and over is that trajectory of growth is really important, and a lot better of a proxy for future performance than absolute metrics. I'm a lot more impressed by a student coming into college with poor preparation who has to work 20-40 hours a week who is able to bring themselves from "below average" to "average" than I am with a student who comes into college with excellent preparation who doesn't have to work going from "average" to "slightly above average".

Especially in the context of ability to learn, I find demonstrating perseverance is immensely important. From my perspective teaching undergraduates in pre-requisite courses, every single student hits a wall at some point in their life where whatever preparation or innate mental acuity they had isn't enough and they need to put in more time. I worry a lot more about students who haven't hit that wall in undergrad and are going onto graduate and professional programs, even if they have excellent records, than I do about students who have hit that wall and shown they can adapt.
 
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NYT group of articles/ opinions

How to Fix College Admissions Now Opinion | How to Fix College Admissions Now
Some points from the “Move On From Meritocracy,” section by Natasha Warikoo:

*my words are the paragraphs without quotation marks*

“For starters, there is no agreement on what constitutes merit. Some say that a true meritocracy is based on test scores, academic grades or a combination of the two. But these metrics look at a narrow range of skills. If a college seeks to educate the next generation of leaders, do these academic measures indicate leadership potential? If the college also seeks to educate the next generation of artists, how can they glean artistic potential from academic measures? And what about grit, an individual’s capacity to overcome complex challenges? Are grades and test scores good indicators of grit?”

I don’t see how you can determine who a good leader will be (or how admissions will determine anything truly important) just by looking at grades. You can say that students who have the highest grades are leading in studying and can handle rigorous work, but that’s about it. Grades themselves don’t indicate much else.

“We know that academics already are not the only criteria for admission to elite colleges. For starters, there is the question of space: the former Harvard president Drew Faust once said that Harvard could fill its freshman class twice over with valedictorians, so it simply cannot admit all top academic achievers.”

Harvard can fill its freshman class twice over with valedictorians. A lot of people, probably most, who are against AA and who say they support meritocracy are lucky to have gained admission to those top schools because if the schools really were selecting students based on merit only (26,000 students per year are valedictorians and growing), a lot who were accepted wouldn’t have been. There are more valedictorians every year than there are students accepted to ivy league colleges. If it was based only on merit, again, a lot of you wouldn’t be in a top college/ivy league/even medical school.

“If we stop thinking about college admissions as a system of individual reward, what should take its place? This depends on the goals of a university, requiring each one to answer a challenging question: What is our purpose, and how can we select students to best further that purpose?”

“Our society is a diverse one, and its success requires diverse leaders and diverse teams in the work force; they appear to make better decisions and, some have even claimed, are seen as more legitimate. So an admissions process driven by these schools’ missions requires admitting a diverse student body, something that affirmative action was trying to help accomplish.”

Cited from an article (A belief in meritocracy is not only false: it’s bad for you) from Princeton University:

“In addition to being false, a growing body of research in psychology and neuroscience suggests that believing in meritocracy makes people more selfish, less self-critical and even more prone to acting in discriminatory ways. Meritocracy is not only wrong; it’s bad.”

A lot of AA opposers (in general) also seem like they actually are, as a result of being meritocratic, selfish and egotistical which isn’t good for society. From the same article, “it’s false, and believing in it encourages selfishness, discrimination and indifference to the plight of the unfortunate.”
 
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I'm not disagreeing with what applicants might need to do, but I think the wording of the post I highlighted has a strong bias in it, and it echos similar comments that have been made that suggest that Black and Hispanic cultures "don't value education" or "need to pull themselves up" and other comments that indicate a bias against particular racial and ethnic groups based on achievement.
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There are far more "qualified" applicants than there are seats. One argument is that grades and scores trump all else and that is the definition of "the best". Others would observe that above a given threshold (which is relatively low - maybe 510/5.60), everyone is academically qualified. Where do we go from there? If it is going to be that LizzyM score, however flawed (I don't even use it anymore -- the math got wonky after the MCAT scoring system changed) is the only thing, then yes, everyone who isn't already 4.0/527 is going to have to up their game.
I agree and actually wanted to point out earlier that qualified just means you can handle the work. I don’t think there’s a such thing as “more qualified” when it comes to grades.

As you mentioned (I think you meant 510/3.6), students a while ago were getting acceptances with those exact scores, so if anything, a 528/4.0 is equally as qualified as a 510/3.6. All those grades tell is whether or not a student can handle the work. The reason why students with higher grades are accepted as opposed to those with lower ones is because of the increase in competition and the fact that not everyone can get in (supply/demand).

An HMS student, from a scatter chart I was reading (take with grain of salt because it was a chart from Reddit but I believe special cases like this do happen), got in, in 2018, with a 507/3.47. Obviously it’s qualified. Why would HMS admit a student who they think can’t handle the work? Maybe the student messed up early on and had a steep uptrend. Who’s to say someone who was a slacker didn’t change their ways and performed at a high level?
 
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(figures)
You don't really provide reasoning here, but given your figures it seems you might be conflating outcome (action) with intent (cultural values).

What you show is a difference in outcome: less time spent studying, less money spent on education, less parental time spent on meetings with teachers.

The fact that you're providing these differences in outcome as a reply to my frustration with comments about cultural values suggests that you think these differences in outcome are due to cultural differences in values. That may be true, but your results don't suggest that.

In fact, your implicit assertion that a difference in outcomes is due to a difference in values is the very casual racism I was trying to call out up-thread.

Differences in outcome can also be due to circumstance: less money spent on education because there is less money to go around, less time spent studying due to a need to work and bring in money, less parental time spent focused on children's education because of competing jobs. Given the immense differences in average income in the US between Asian, Black and Hispanic families, I would posit that your second figure simply shows that families who have higher income are more likely to spend more on education. In fact, the relative breakdown of money spent on education follows the exact same order (Asian > White > Hispanic > Black) that median household income follows.

Income-varies-widely-across-racial-and-ethnic-groups-in-the-United-States.jpg
 
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I don’t think this chart takes into account that there are more low-SES Hispanics and blacks than are Asians/whites, so as a result more Hispanic/black high school students have no choice but to balance work/studying than do Asians/whites, giving Asians/whites much more time to study as shown by the chart. The chart does show that those who are low SES study less, which makes sense because many low-SES students have to work.
Again, Hispanics and blacks can’t afford it like how Asians/whites can.
The same thing.
 
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I don’t think this chart takes into account that there are more low-SES Hispanics and blacks than are Asians/whites, so as a result more Hispanic/black high school students have no choice but to balance work/studying than do Asians/whites, giving Asians/whites much more time to study as shown by the chart. The chart does show that those who are low SES study less, which makes sense because many low-SES students have to work.

Again, Hispanics and blacks can’t afford it like how Asians/whites can.

The same thing.
But are schools favoring low SES blacks and Hispanics over affluent blacks and Hispanics with higher stats? It seems they all compete to grab URMs with high stats first regardless of their economic status.
 
It seems they all compete to grab URMs with high stats first regardless of their economic status.
I'm curious, could you elaborate on the evidence / your experiences that have caused you to develop this view?

I feel like the number of people in this thread who aren't directly involved in the process (either as applicants or as faculty/staff) is really interesting. I also note strong divides in how different posters relation to the process seems to impact their perceptions. I'm sure survivor bias plays a role, for sure.
 
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You don't really provide reasoning here, but given your figures it seems you might be conflating outcome (action) with intent (cultural values).

What you show is a difference in outcome: less time spent studying, less money spent on education, less parental time spent on meetings with teachers.

The fact that you're providing these differences in outcome as a reply to my frustration with comments about cultural values suggests that you think these differences in outcome are due to cultural differences in values. That may be true, but your results don't suggest that.

In fact, your implicit assertion that a difference in outcomes is due to a difference in values is the very casual racism I was trying to call out up-thread.

Differences in outcome can also be due to circumstance: less money spent on education because there is less money to go around, less time spent studying due to a need to work and bring in money, less parental time spent focused on children's education because of competing jobs. Given the immense differences in average income in the US between Asian, Black and Hispanic families, I would posit that your second figure simply shows that families who have higher income are more likely to spend more on education. In fact, the relative breakdown of money spent on education follows the exact same order (Asian > White > Hispanic > Black) that median household income follows.

View attachment 373946
Indeed. As I have often pointed out in these fora, Asian-Americans have become the most successful minority group in this country, and in a shorter period of time at that, than even the Jews.
 
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I'm curious, could you elaborate on the evidence / your experiences that have caused you to develop this view?

I feel like the number of people in this thread who aren't directly involved in the process (either as applicants or as faculty/staff) is really interesting. I also note strong divides in how different posters relation to the process seems to impact their perceptions. I'm sure survivor bias plays a role, for sure.
If you check school specific threads for top schools for couple of years you will come to that conclusion. Also, personally know upper class URMs with high stats and their outcomes.
 
Indeed. As I have often pointed out in these fora, Asian-Americans have become the most successful minority group in this country, and in a shorter period of time at that, than even the Jews.
That includes low income Asian American parents who sacrifice a lot for their kids education, so not sure what you are trying convey.
 
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If you check school specific threads for top schools for couple of years you will come to that conclusion. Also, personally know upper class URMs with high stats and their outcomes.
So... Anecdotes from an anonymous online forum? Not a very rigorous source, nor would I really qualify reading a message board "experience". Going through the process, talking with admissions committees, sitting on admissions committees are all all "experience".

Hearing other people talk about the process and drawing conclusions is somewhere between hearsay and rumors.

::edited for clarity::
 
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Who are these researchers, liberal professors? ☺️
They might be liberal but that doesn’t mean the information they produce is biased/invalid. I wouldn’t consider any information that I cited in the first post you tagged me in to be biased.
 
They might be liberal but that doesn’t mean the information they produce is biased/invalid. I wouldn’t consider any information that I cited in the first post you tagged me in to be biased.
It’s easy to come with numbers to fit the narrative that suits them, done with both liberals and conservatives.
 
Seems like you're starting from a belief in a given conclusion and then trying to find evidence to support it.
I could say same though. Just saying anecdotal or N=1 is come on when you disagree. I have seen it everywhere. You don’t need some others research or biased adcom’s opinion to figure out how process works. You can do your own research. I have been following admissions process for years.
 
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I could say same though. Just saying anecdotal or N=1 is come on when you disagree. I have seen it everywhere. You don’t need some others research or biased adcom’s opinion to figure out how process works. You can do your own research. I have been following admissions process for years.
I've spent a decade as a college faculty member in the sciences running undergraduate health professions programs, and worked at a medical school before that. I'm pretty well versed in the process, and have quite a lot of data on student outcomes. And these are students for who I know every detail of their application, from their personal statements to written secondaries, and who I've seen perform in interviews.

I feel like I need an "I did MY OWN research" meme to insert here.
 
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I've spent a decade as a college faculty member in the sciences running health professions programs, and worked at a medical school before that. I'm pretty well versed in the process, and have quite a lot of data on student outcomes. And these are students for who I know every detail of their application, from their personal statements to written secondaries, and who I've seen perform in interviews.

I feel like I need an "I did MY OWN research" meme to insert here.
So your claim is schools don’t chase URMs with high stats to pad their averages but really pay attention to their circumstances?
 
So your claim is schools don’t chase URMs with high stats to pad their averages but really pay attention to their circumstances?
Yes, especially SES. And that applies to non URMs as well.

Stats are consistently the least predictive thing I see in an application, assuming they're not in red flag territory.
 
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Yes, especially SES. And that applies to non URMs as well.

Stats are consistently the least predictive thing I see in an application, assuming they're not in red flag territory.
And do you get high stats URM applications at your school? They all seems to be grabbed by T10 schools with scholarships. Sometimes I wonder how adcoms from one school can comment on process at schools like Harvard.
 
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