California Medical Misinformation Bill

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Interesting. Many people would disagree with labelling both of those pandemics as such because there are small numbers of people getting the viruses other ways and would thus label that statement as false and stigmatizing. With monkeypox, the reluctance by the health establishment to come out and discuss risk factors (again), appears to have resulted in further spread.

Why can we not simply discuss honestly who is more affected and to what degree by infectious diseases so people can make their own choices about how they behave and what they should reasonably worry about? Finding out case and fatality rates broken down by certain age groups and risk factor status early on and even well into the pandemic was very difficult. This was the most important information people needed to know, and you couldn't find it. Just the overall death and case counter on cable news and search engines.

As I've told patients who have asked, this isn't a disease confined to MSM but that's the population with the majority of the spread at this point. Same with HIV in the 80s. Yes other people other than gay men and IV drug users got it then, but those people were in the significant minority.

Heck, even John Oliver pointed out that we should be able to talk about how its mostly a disease of men having sex with men at this point. Not entirely, and it shouldn't be used to stigmatize them like was done in the 80s, but it should (and is) guiding the public health response to the disease.

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[chessknt]

Nobody (sane) is arguing that covid wasn't dangerous to many people or the vaccines weren't effective in reducing hospitalizations and deaths.
The criticism is about the dogmatic absolute messaging and refusal by health authorities to admit or rigorously study who covid was more dangerous to and how that danger evolved over time due to viral mutations and acquired immunity in the population. Instead they held onto the message that covid was consistently and persistently very dangerous to everybody and mandated lockdowns, vaccines, and masks rather than honestly discussing with the public the data to allow them to make their own risk calculations. This undermined the public's trust and resulted in the insanity about ivermectin and vaccine refusal in the people who actually really needed them the most (obese older people). There is STILL a hesitancy to admit that covid is overwhelmingly more dangerous to people who are morbidly obese, old, and with multiple co-morbidities. Mandating covid boosters in college students? Get out of here.

The refusal of allowing Djokovic into the country to play in the US Open really shows how disconnected from reality and absurd it has become. There is no scientific basis for not letting him play. None. And everyone can see it. They have caused more harm with their refusal to be honest and reasonable in favor of making the focus on compliance regardless how much sense it makes. Having the public's faith in the public health establishment is important and they have destroyed it.



Interesting. Many people would disagree with labelling both of those pandemics as such because there are small numbers of people getting the viruses other ways and would thus label that statement as false and stigmatizing. With monkeypox, the reluctance by the health establishment to come out and discuss risk factors (again), appears to have resulted in further spread.

Why can we not simply discuss honestly who is more affected and to what degree by infectious diseases so people can make their own choices about how they behave and what they should reasonably worry about? Finding out case and fatality rates broken down by certain age groups and risk factor status early on and even well into the pandemic was very difficult. This was the most important information people needed to know, and you couldn't find it. Just the overall death and case counter on cable news and search engines.

I cant believe that 2 years later people in healthcare are still deliberately rewriting history to fit their own agenda... The vaccines and lockdowns were to prevent overwhelming the inpatient healthcare system, not stop everyone from dying from COVID but rather from dying from all the other **** that still happened like strokes and MIs and sepsis. If we allowed people to 'make their own risk calculations' they would still drive the cars in to **** and eat KFC and have MIs but ALSO be spreading COVID and everyone would want access to emergency healthcare, that wasn't part of the opt out unfortunately by 'choosing' to make their own risk assessment. Even with that many areas were heavily overwhelmed. Italy in May was an awesome example of what no preparation looked like and it STILL happened here. NYC, Detroit, and Miami got rolled by COVID even with preventative measures.

 

[deleted1116990]

It isn't a global woke conspiracy, we were moving with the virus in real time and resources were directed to developing a vaccine, not answering a bunch of academic esoteria that was conjured up after it was found to be highly effective in order to find some way to discredit it in truly the most confusing political decision of all time.

The problem is that nobody was ever willing to have an honest conversation and say "we rushed this vaccine with a novel mechanism through an approval process where the manufacturers were shielded from liability and we have no long term data, we barely have short term data, but this virus is so deadly for certain groups that we think the potential risks of the vaccine that we may find out later about are far outweighed by the benefits" and instead went with "We are sure it's safe and the benefits far outweigh the risk for literally everybody and we will end the pandemic if we force everyone to get it by tying their jobs to it and censor any discussion about it." That is the wrong way to message about public health, with out of proportion fear and threats.

I cant believe that 2 years later people in healthcare are still deliberately rewriting history to fit their own agenda... The vaccines and lockdowns were to prevent overwhelming the inpatient healthcare system, not stop everyone from dying from COVID

This is objectively not true as mandates were still pushed even after the hospitals stopped being full of covid patients. The Biden administration did not voluntarily stop the employer vaccine mandate or stop the mandate of masks on airplanes. They would have continued that if they could have, do you honestly think otherwise? My only agenda is wanting to have reasonable conversations and not resort to hysterics. Unfortunately, for the foreseeable future Covid will remain a politically and thus emotionally charged topic not open to free scientific inquiry.

Serious question: At what point can we stop wearing masks in hospitals so our patients can see our faces again? Ever?

 

[BobLoblaw78]

It isn't a global woke conspiracy, we were moving with the virus in real time and resources were directed to developing a vaccine, not answering a bunch of academic esoteria that was conjured up after it was found to be highly effective in order to find some way to discredit it in truly the most confusing political decision of all time.

Isn't 254 funded studies on social disparities of COVID "answering a bunch of academic esoteria"??? Isn't the social aspect more esoteric than the medical information? Isn't the optimal time to study a pandemic is during a pandemic?

Why would a physician argue against obtaining this type of medical data over social data? It will be helpful for the next pandemic and could be a positive takeaway from this whole negative ordeal.

PS- I am always suspicious of things that sound too outrageous to be true. So I don't accept the study #'s as fact until I confirm for myself. But if it is true, it raises many, many questions.

 

[McPoyle]

Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines​

BMJ 2022; 377 doi: Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines (Published 24 June 2022)Cite this as: BMJ 2022;3771565 Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines

Why would anyone give a **** about a single payment for “injury” after how many millions of doses?

 

[nimbus]

The problem is that nobody was ever willing to have an honest conversation and say "we rushed this vaccine with a novel mechanism through an approval process where the manufacturers were shielded from liability and we have no long term data, we barely have short term data, but this virus is so deadly for certain groups that we think the potential risks of the vaccine that we may find out later about are far outweighed by the benefits" and instead went with "We are sure it's safe and the benefits far outweigh the risk for literally everybody and we will end the pandemic if we force everyone to get it by tying their jobs to it and censor any discussion about it." That is the wrong way to message about public health, with out of proportion fear and threats.



This is objectively not true as mandates were still pushed even after the hospitals stopped being full of covid patients. The Biden administration did not voluntarily stop the employer vaccine mandate or stop the mandate of masks on airplanes. They would have continued that if they could have, do you honestly think otherwise? My only agenda is wanting to have reasonable conversations and not resort to hysterics. Unfortunately, for the foreseeable future Covid will remain a politically and thus emotionally charged topic not open to free scientific inquiry.

Serious question: At what point can we stop wearing masks in hospitals so our patients can see our faces again? Ever?

I show them my 20yo picture on my ID. Makes a better impression.

 

[chessknt]

Isn't 254 funded studies on social disparities of COVID "answering a bunch of academic esoteria"??? Isn't the social aspect more esoteric than the medical information? Isn't the optimal time to study a pandemic is during a pandemic?

Why would a physician argue against obtaining this type of medical data over social data? It will be helpful for the next pandemic and could be a positive takeaway from this whole negative ordeal.

PS- I am always suspicious of things that sound too outrageous to be true. So I don't accept the study #'s as fact until I confirm for myself. But if it is true, it raises many, many questions.

You have a fair point and agree need to see the source. I have a feeling a study that looked at outcomes at stratified by race was categorized as a social inequality study despite that not really being the emphasis.

 

[epidural man]

I am very curious as to where you got that list, care to share?

Your initial post said something along the lines of Pfizer made so much money but didn't do any research on vaccine efficacy data beyond the initial studies and retrospective cohorts. How long would those have taken and what would the point have ended up being? You want to know the answers to those questions but it would take years with multiple confounders as the virus mutated to get some good data on it, by then the entire point would have been moot. What would the purpose have been? The vaccine deniers are not going to decide to get vaccinated because Pfizer sunk 100s of millions in to a longitudinal study or do you think they actually would?

It isn't a global woke conspiracy, we were moving with the virus in real time and resources were directed to developing a vaccine, not answering a bunch of academic esoteria that was conjured up after it was found to be highly effective in order to find some way to discredit it in truly the most confusing political decision of all time.

They are not esoteric questions.

Understanding natural immunity is probably the MOST important question of this whole pandemic. I have a 20 year old and it concerned me greatly that the vaccine put him at much greater risk for serious harm than did the actual disease.

Regarding the list, I don’t remember exactly where I got it and I looked for my source which I saw or heard it several months ago - but it was highly likely from a podcast from one of these MDs, Peter Attia, ZDoggMD, Vinay Prasad, Marty Makary, or some other reasonable MD voice about the COVID science. Dr Vinay Prasad is absolutely brilliant and has been very informative. I suggest following his Twitter feed.

It was from him that I learned that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the science panel members recommended against a fourth booster, but the FDA went ahead and approved it anyway, much to the pleasure and shouts of joy from Pfizer.

Wet your whistle with these two great posts. (Please read them. They make my points better than I have done..AND, they are very informative.)

The Best Argument Public Health Should be Stripped of Power is The CDC Ran Zero Cluster RCTs

Zero cluster trials... think about it

vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com

Dr. Fauci’s Legacy

Dr. Marty Makary on the public health risk of putting America’s fate in the hands of one doctor.

www.commonsense.news

 

[vector2]

, Vinay Prasad,

Dude is a lying grifting quack who presents shtty manipulated stats to non-statisticians who eat his schlop up to feed their own pre-existing confirmation bias.

 

[epidural man]

Dude is a lying grifting quack who presents shtty manipulated stats to non-statisticians who eat his schlop up to feed their own pre-existing confirmation bias.

Oh really? I wasn’t aware of that. I’ll try and pick that out. Do you have some specific examples from his publications? They mostly are about oncology so I don’t read his actual scientific publications.

 

[chessknt]

They are not esoteric questions.

Understanding natural immunity is probably the MOST important question of this whole pandemic. I have a 20 year old and it concerned me greatly that the vaccine put him at much greater risk for serious harm than did the actual disease.

Regarding the list, I don’t remember exactly where I got it and I looked for my source which I saw or heard it several months ago - but it was highly likely from a podcast from one of these MDs, Peter Attia, ZDoggMD, Vinay Prasad, Marty Makary, or some other reasonable MD voice about the COVID science. Dr Vinay Prasad is absolutely brilliant and has been very informative. I suggest following his Twitter feed.

It was from him that I learned that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the science panel members recommended against a fourth booster, but the FDA went ahead and approved it anyway, much to the pleasure and shouts of joy from Pfizer.

Wet your whistle with these two great posts. (Please read them. They make my points better than I have done..AND, they are very informative.)

The Best Argument Public Health Should be Stripped of Power is The CDC Ran Zero Cluster RCTs

Zero cluster trials... think about it

vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com

Dr. Fauci’s Legacy

Dr. Marty Makary on the public health risk of putting America’s fate in the hands of one doctor.

www.commonsense.news

Much greater risk than the disease? From what exactly? I assume you are talking about myocarditis since that is what Prasad was pushing in his quest to be like Marik, a contrarian celebrity fast tracked to fame by the politics of COVID data and common sense be damned. I read enough of his drivel early on to know he was full of ****. His insistence on comparing the pandemic response to the third reich was ridiculous. I haven't delved in to the science end of things he presents because I honestly don't care to waste any more time on him but there are plenty of others who have and I have a lot more confidence in them than I do a wannabe contrarian twitter star.

Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infection - Nature Medicine

A self-controlled case series using individual-patient-level data from over 38 million people aged 16 years and over, reveals an increased risk of myocarditis within a week of receiving a first dose of ChAdOx1, BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines, which was further increased after a second dose of...

www.nature.com

Here is one source addressing myocarditis--the short of it is that the virus causes myocarditis and in some cases the vaccine did too but less often than the virus did. If the choice is to get the virus or the vaccine the answer was obvious for all age groups--the vaccine. There are many other but in short the vaccine is not dangerous to 20 year olds. Your chances of being harmed by the vaccine are about on the order of winning the powerball and it is agonizingly stupid to worry about it. It would be like panicking about getting into an airplane crash or a car crash except those are way more common.

 

[vector2]

Oh really? I wasn’t aware of that. I’ll try and pick that out. Do you have some specific examples from his publications? They mostly are about oncology so I don’t read his actual scientific publications.

His grift is using his MD credentials to prey upon a particular kind of antivaxx or antivaxx-curious crowd. The kind who are too educated to be lumped in with the mouthbreathing denier crowd, so instead they seek out guys like Prasad and some of the other folks you mentioned who misuse stats and cherry pick data to falsely add legitimacy to the vaccine "controversy"

 

[PikminOC]

Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines​

BMJ 2022; 377 doi: Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines (Published 24 June 2022)Cite this as: BMJ 2022;3771565

Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines​

BMJ 2022; 377 doi: Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines (Published 24 June 2022)Cite this as: BMJ 2022;3771565 Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines

Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines

The first compensation payments in the UK have been made to families who have been bereaved, or to people who have been injured, as a result of a covid-19 vaccine. Vikki Spit from Cumbria is believed to be the first person to receive compensation, after her 48 year old partner, Zion, became ill...

www.bmj.com

Why would anyone give a **** about a single payment for “injury” after how many millions of doses?

It's not just one payment. There are a lot of cases

 

[epidural man]

Vector2 and chessknt - you experience has not been mine regarding Dr Prasad. But to be fair, I have only listened to about 5 of his podcasts and read a few of his articles - I mostly just follow his links on Twitter. So you may be right. I would really like to be shown where he has been dishonest or completely wrong on his podcast or articles. I don’t like being bamboozeled so please if you have some more concrete links we could discuss that would be great. Has he used hyperbole sometimes? Probably. So have I. Have you guys ever done that? Call a highly published physician a hack? Or compare a respected physician to a real hack like Marik? Maybe you haven’t, but most of us succumb to this. It isn’t pretty when we do, but we are fallible humans.

Regarding the myocardial risk - I don’t think your comparison to flying is a great comparison. First of all, the risk is about 1:5000 for a young adult to get myocarditis with the vaccine, way more than with infection. And the comparison to flying is faulty because flying is so much more convenient travel option than other options. To make the comparison fair, you would have to say, yes dying by flight is rare, but the risk is 2x great than this other mode of travel that gets you there with less cost; and only slightly longer travel time. If that were the case, NO ONE would fly.

But let’s ignore Dr Prasad for a sec. How about Dr Paul Offit? This a good thread (which I know about because I follow Dr Prasad’s Twitter account).



I also saw this gem of a thread form his feed.




But let’s take a step back.

Here was my point. The CDC has not been using good data to dictate policy. The FDA seems to be in Pfizer’s pocket because they too have not made sound judgments based on science, and they have done nothing to demand Pfizer provide high quality data. (I mean this is so obvious it’s unclear how anyone could argue against this. Their own panel UNAMIMOUSLY recommended against a fourth booster yet the FDA ignored their panel). Those are my points. So what is your point?

The fact that the American Academy of Pediatriacs quietly removed the myriad of articles from their website that talked about the importance of facial expression on child development should make EVERYONE (who cares about the way science should communicate) take great pause and asked - WTF? Maybe we don’t know if masks are harmful in the developing brain, but you don’t tried to hide what we ALREADY know on the subject. You approach the subject honestly and openly and say, we need to answer these questions.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Vector2 and chessknt - you experience has not been mine regarding Dr Prasad. But to be fair, I have only listened to about 5 of his podcasts and read a few of his articles - I mostly just follow his links on Twitter. So you may be right. I would really like to be shown where he has been dishonest or completely wrong on his podcast or articles. I don’t like being bamboozeled so please if you have some more concrete links we could discuss that would be great. Has he used hyperbole sometimes? Probably. So I have. Have you guys ever done that? Call a highly published physician a hack? Or compare a respected physician to a real hack like Marik? Maybe you haven’t, but most of us succumb to this. It isn’t pretty when we do, but we are fallible humans.

Regarding the myocardial risk - I don’t think you comparison flying is a great comparison. First of all, the risk is about 1:5000 for a young adult to get myocarditis with the vaccine, way more than with infection. And the comparison to flying is faulty because flying is so much more convenient travel option than other options. To make the comparison fair, you would have to say, yes dying by flight is rare, but the risk is 2x great than this other mode of travel that gets you their with less cost; and only slightly longer travel time. If that were the case, NO ONE would fly.

But let’s ignore Dr Prasad for a sec. How about Dr Paul Offit? This a good thread (which I know about because I follow Dr Prasad’s Twitter account).



I also saw this gem of a thread form his feed.

Cool link. Mine is better: Risk of Myocarditis from COVID-19 Infection in People Under Age 20: A Population-Based Analysis - PubMed

Myocarditis risk in males age 12-17 who had COVID is around 1:1100. Or you know 5-6X more likely than from the vaccine.

 

[epidural man]

Cool link. Mine is better: Risk of Myocarditis from COVID-19 Infection in People Under Age 20: A Population-Based Analysis - PubMed

Myocarditis risk in males age 12-17 who had COVID is around 1:1100. Or you know 5-6X more likely than from the vaccine.

Great article. Thanks for sharing!

So the question is, what if you got on injection, then got covid and dodged the bullet of myocarditis. Should you get boosted again? Wouldn’t it be nice if the FDA demanded Pfizer answer this question for us with a small sliver of the profit they made on the billions from the vaccine?

How well does one injection prevent hospitalization in a 20 y/o? Has Pfizer answered that with a randomized trial?

 

[DG51]

The same people who opposed the supreme court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade on the premise that the government should not dictate how medicine is practiced are probably supporting this bill smh.

For the record, I oppose the supreme court's decision.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Great article. Thanks for sharing!

So the question is, what if you got on injection, then got covid and dodged the bullet of myocarditis. Should you get boosted again? Wouldn’t it be nice if the FDA demanded Pfizer answer this question for us with a small sliver of the profit they made on the billions from the vaccine?

How well does one injection prevent hospitalization in a 20 y/o? Has Pfizer answered that with a randomized trial?

Those are fair questions and a large part of why I still recommend primary vaccination for children who are my patients but I haven't really done much with boosters for them.

I look at it this way: at this point its becoming very similar to the flu (minus the seasonality and higher risk for kids). We get a flu shot every year, at this point I don't see why covid should be any different. One of my kids had covid 3 weeks ago. I will not be getting her a booster at this time. The other has never had covid, and she's almost a year out from her initial vaccine series so when I go to get my omicron specific booster (I had covid in January) I plan on taking her to get the booster that is approved for children. My wife had covid 3 weeks ago as well, I don't think she plans on getting the omicron booster.

Tl;dr: kids are low enough risk I don't think they need boosters every 6 months like people at higher risk but I think once a year is reasonable. I also have the advantage of both of my children being girls, so the myocarditis issue isn't something I'm really concerned about.

 

[McPoyle]

Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines​

BMJ 2022; 377 doi: Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines (Published 24 June 2022)Cite this as: BMJ 2022;3771565

Covid-19: UK makes first payments to compensate injury or death from vaccines

The first compensation payments in the UK have been made to families who have been bereaved, or to people who have been injured, as a result of a covid-19 vaccine. Vikki Spit from Cumbria is believed to be the first person to receive compensation, after her 48 year old partner, Zion, became ill...

www.bmj.com

It's not just one payment. There are a lot of cases

I believe you believe that.

 

[PikminOC]

I believe you believe that.

As a Psychiatrist I have seen many complications with these injections. I dont think they should have been mandated. Esp when the actual illness isn't bad for the majority of the population.

 

[PikminOC]

Vector2 and chessknt - you experience has not been mine regarding Dr Prasad. But to be fair, I have only listened to about 5 of his podcasts and read a few of his articles - I mostly just follow his links on Twitter. So you may be right. I would really like to be shown where he has been dishonest or completely wrong on his podcast or articles. I don’t like being bamboozeled so please if you have some more concrete links we could discuss that would be great. Has he used hyperbole sometimes? Probably. So have I. Have you guys ever done that? Call a highly published physician a hack? Or compare a respected physician to a real hack like Marik? Maybe you haven’t, but most of us succumb to this. It isn’t pretty when we do, but we are fallible humans.

Regarding the myocardial risk - I don’t think your comparison to flying is a great comparison. First of all, the risk is about 1:5000 for a young adult to get myocarditis with the vaccine, way more than with infection. And the comparison to flying is faulty because flying is so much more convenient travel option than other options. To make the comparison fair, you would have to say, yes dying by flight is rare, but the risk is 2x great than this other mode of travel that gets you there with less cost; and only slightly longer travel time. If that were the case, NO ONE would fly.

But let’s ignore Dr Prasad for a sec. How about Dr Paul Offit? This a good thread (which I know about because I follow Dr Prasad’s Twitter account).



I also saw this gem of a thread form his feed.




But let’s take a step back.

Here was my point. The CDC has not been using good data to dictate policy. The FDA seems to be in Pfizer’s pocket because they too have not made sound judgments based on science, and they have done nothing to demand Pfizer provide high quality data. (I mean this is so obvious it’s unclear how anyone could argue against this. Their own panel UNAMIMOUSLY recommended against a fourth booster yet the FDA ignored their panel). Those are my points. So what is your point?

The fact that the American Academy of Pediatriacs quietly removed the myriad of articles from their website that talked about the importance of facial expression on child development should make EVERYONE (who cares about the way science should communicate) take great pause and asked - WTF? Maybe we don’t know if masks are harmful in the developing brain, but you don’t tried to hide what we ALREADY know on the subject. You approach the subject honestly and openly and say, we need to answer these questions.

Yes and fda people even resigned over this

 

[nimbus]

As a Psychiatrist I have seen many complications with these injections. I dont think they should have been mandated. Esp when the actual illness isn't bad for the majority of the population.

What sort of complications?

 

[PikminOC]

What sort of complications?

Psychosis and delusions

 

[nimbus]

Psychosis and delusions

Interesting. Maybe that’s what happened to Trump. Any particular population?

 

[deleted875186]

Vector2 and chessknt - you experience has not been mine regarding Dr Prasad. But to be fair, I have only listened to about 5 of his podcasts and read a few of his articles - I mostly just follow his links on Twitter. So you may be right. I would really like to be shown where he has been dishonest or completely wrong on his podcast or articles. I don’t like being bamboozeled so please if you have some more concrete links we could discuss that would be great. Has he used hyperbole sometimes? Probably. So have I. Have you guys ever done that? Call a highly published physician a hack? Or compare a respected physician to a real hack like Marik? Maybe you haven’t, but most of us succumb to this. It isn’t pretty when we do, but we are fallible humans.

Regarding the myocardial risk - I don’t think your comparison to flying is a great comparison. First of all, the risk is about 1:5000 for a young adult to get myocarditis with the vaccine, way more than with infection. And the comparison to flying is faulty because flying is so much more convenient travel option than other options. To make the comparison fair, you would have to say, yes dying by flight is rare, but the risk is 2x great than this other mode of travel that gets you there with less cost; and only slightly longer travel time. If that were the case, NO ONE would fly.

But let’s ignore Dr Prasad for a sec. How about Dr Paul Offit? This a good thread (which I know about because I follow Dr Prasad’s Twitter account).



I also saw this gem of a thread form his feed.




But let’s take a step back.

Here was my point. The CDC has not been using good data to dictate policy. The FDA seems to be in Pfizer’s pocket because they too have not made sound judgments based on science, and they have done nothing to demand Pfizer provide high quality data. (I mean this is so obvious it’s unclear how anyone could argue against this. Their own panel UNAMIMOUSLY recommended against a fourth booster yet the FDA ignored their panel). Those are my points. So what is your point?

The fact that the American Academy of Pediatriacs quietly removed the myriad of articles from their website that talked about the importance of facial expression on child development should make EVERYONE (who cares about the way science should communicate) take great pause and asked - WTF? Maybe we don’t know if masks are harmful in the developing brain, but you don’t tried to hide what we ALREADY know on the subject. You approach the subject honestly and openly and say, we need to answer these questions.

I think most of us here would agree about the issue of boosters. Maybe fourth dose booster should not have been approved.

But honestly, trying to deny that pronary vaccination is effective, or that we don’t know side effects despite the millions of doses given, is just ridiculous. If your argument is we don’t know long term side effects, fine, I respect that, but maybe don’t take any drug or therapeutic, or have any new procedure until 20 years post marketing and millions of patients being treated.

If your going to argue that masks are harmful to kids your just insane. They can take the mask off at home. Wearing a mask during a Covid surge is harmless and is the minimum required to live in a society and help protect those around you.

 

[PikminOC]

I think most of us here would agree about the issue of boosters. Maybe fourth dose booster should not have been approved.

But honestly, trying to deny that pronary vaccination is effective, or that we don’t know side effects despite the millions of doses given, is just ridiculous. If your argument is we don’t know long term side effects, fine, I respect that, but maybe don’t take any drug or therapeutic, or have any new procedure until 20 years post marketing and millions of patients being treated.

If your going to argue that masks are harmful to kids your just insane. They can take the mask off at home. Wearing a mask during a Covid surge is harmless and is the minimum required to live in a society and help protect those around you.

As a Psychiatrist, we see child development and communication much different than you do.

 

[epidural man]

I think most of us here would agree about the issue of boosters. Maybe fourth dose booster should not have been approved.

But honestly, trying to deny that pronary vaccination is effective, or that we don’t know side effects despite the millions of doses given, is just ridiculous. If your argument is we don’t know long term side effects, fine, I respect that, but maybe don’t take any drug or therapeutic, or have any new procedure until 20 years post marketing and millions of patients being treated.

If your going to argue that masks are harmful to kids your just insane. They can take the mask off at home. Wearing a mask during a Covid surge is harmless and is the minimum required to live in a society and help protect those around you.

I have never denied pronary vaccination efficacy. That isn't even CLOSE to anything I said.

Regarding kids and masking - I suggest you do some more reading on this if you think I'm nuts for even suggesting it.

 

[epidural man]

... Esp when the actual illness isn't bad for the majority of the population.

THIS is an incredibly important question that needs more critically thinking minds to break down.

If only someone or company, or government body had the power and resources to ask these questions. I really wish we had a way, like maybe a way to look at and answer important scientific questions that change the way we do things. Someone should invent a way to answer questions - maybe by way of...what's the word? OH yeah...like a study..yeah that's it. And maybe really smart people could come up with a way to make sure this study wasn't biased. That would be so cool. Oh wow - They could even randomize different treatments and compare to different groups. Holy cow that would be soooo cool.

Alas...apparently, we haven't invented anything like that yet.

 

[deleted875186]

I have never denied pronary vaccination efficacy. That isn't even CLOSE to anything I said.

Regarding kids and masking - I suggest you do some more reading on this if you think I'm nuts for even suggesting it.

We’re talking about school aged children, not babies learning to talk.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Cool link. Mine is better: Risk of Myocarditis from COVID-19 Infection in People Under Age 20: A Population-Based Analysis - PubMed

Myocarditis risk in males age 12-17 who had COVID is around 1:1100. Or you know 5-6X more likely than from the vaccine.

I would have guessed this to be true. Virus causing more damage than the vaccine. What is the risk of vaccine then getting the virus? Probably still less than getting the virus without vaccine. But much closer.

Which is why I had my 15-20yo kids get it. But throw in that there could be unknown long term risks, it becomes more uncertain. It was not an easy decision for me regarding my kids getting it. Which is why it is terrible for the government to try to dictate these decisions. It should be clear evidence with clear benefit. You want to assure the decision is correct or you undermine your future credibility. I find this to be important with treating patients. If you don’t prep them for most outcomes and one happens, they start to trust you less

 

[BobLoblaw78]

I think most of us here would agree about the issue of boosters. Maybe fourth dose booster should not have been approved.

But honestly, trying to deny that pronary vaccination is effective, or that we don’t know side effects despite the millions of doses given, is just ridiculous. If your argument is we don’t know long term side effects, fine, I respect that, but maybe don’t take any drug or therapeutic, or have any new procedure until 20 years post marketing and millions of patients being treated.

If your going to argue that masks are harmful to kids your just insane. They can take the mask off at home. Wearing a mask during a Covid surge is harmless and is the minimum required to live in a society and help protect those around you.

Agree with most.

Id give more slack about masks causing problems. It is probably fine but def not optimal for learning. Just bc they can take them off at home guarantees nothing. It is like saying being on social media or electronics at school isn’t harmful bc they can just be off them at home.

I imagine that cutting the max speed limit to 30 mph would save more lives than wearing masks. If that is true, should we decrease the speed limit??

There is a limit to placing restrictions. The devil is in the details…of where to place them. But not insane to consider

 

[deleted875186]

Agree with most.

Id give more slack about masks causing problems. It is probably fine but def not optimal for learning. Just bc they can take them off at home guarantees nothing. It is like saying being on social media or electronics at school isn’t harmful bc they can just be off them at home.

I imagine that cutting the max speed limit to 30 mph would save more lives than wearing masks. If that is true, should we decrease the speed limit??

There is a limit to placing restrictions. The devil is in the details…of where to place them. But not insane to consider

Fair, but I could make the analogy that wearing masks during a pandemic is like mandating people not drive while drunk, impaired, or physically unable to drive. Could make numerous other analogies for other things we require as a society. Your argument seems to be that masks aren’t that effective, which is debatable.

 

[nimbus]

As a Psychiatrist, we see child development and communication much different than you do.

As a psychiatrist, you probably never saw over half your ICU beds filled with COVID patients and didn’t bring patients to the OR every day for the COVID trach/PEG special after which many of them still died. Many of these were working people in their 40s and 50s, they were parents to young kids. We had an RT in his 30s who was on ECMO for over a month and hospitalized for over 2 months. He lived but still hasn’t returned to work. Even some folks who were there seem to have short memories. The USA has a population of 330million, COVID killed over 1million of us and debilitated millions more. It shortened our average life expectancy. The vaccine saved millions of lives.

 

[chessknt]

As a psychiatrist, you probably never saw over half your ICU beds filled with COVID patients and didn’t bring patients to the OR every day for the COVID trach/PEG special after which many of them still died. Many of these were working people in their 40s and 50s, they were parents to young kids. We had an RT in his 30s who was on ECMO for over a month and hospitalized for over 2 months. He lived but still hasn’t returned to work. Even some folks who were there seem to have short memories. The USA has a population of 330million, COVID killed over 1million of us and debilitated millions more. It shortened our average life expectancy. The vaccine saved millions of lives.

Or the completely full ICU where people were getting turned maybe once a day, getting line infections and VAPs at astronomical rates and dying while their family watched on zoom. The nurses and rts quitting in droves afterwards and all the new blood coming in with no mentorship. But it is an individualized risk assessment of course... Maybe only if you hadn't been allowed access to emergency medical care for any reason if the hospital was encumbered and you chose not to get vaccinated then maybe I would have believed in that. But those unvaccinated covids just kept coming in stuffing our beds driving care standards in to the toilet for everyone.

 

[PikminOC]

Or the completely full ICU where people were getting turned maybe once a day, getting line infections and VAPs at astronomical rates and dying while their family watched on zoom. The nurses and rts quitting in droves afterwards and all the new blood coming in with no mentorship. But it is an individualized risk assessment of course... Maybe only if you hadn't been allowed access to emergency medical care for any reason if the hospital was encumbered and you chose not to get vaccinated then maybe I would have believed in that. But those unvaccinated covids just kept coming in stuffing our beds driving care standards in to the toilet for everyone.

Nurses quitting in droves or let go because they didn't get the shot?

 

[PikminOC]

Or the completely full ICU where people were getting turned maybe once a day, getting line infections and VAPs at astronomical rates and dying while their family watched on zoom. The nurses and rts quitting in droves afterwards and all the new blood coming in with no mentorship. But it is an individualized risk assessment of course... Maybe only if you hadn't been allowed access to emergency medical care for any reason if the hospital was encumbered and you chose not to get vaccinated then maybe I would have believed in that. But those unvaccinated covids just kept coming in stuffing our beds driving care standards in to the toilet for everyone.

No people who got the injection were in the hospital?

 

[PikminOC]

As a psychiatrist, you probably never saw over half your ICU beds filled with COVID patients and didn’t bring patients to the OR every day for the COVID trach/PEG special after which many of them still died. Many of these were working people in their 40s and 50s, they were parents to young kids. We had an RT in his 30s who was on ECMO for over a month and hospitalized for over 2 months. He lived but still hasn’t returned to work. Even some folks who were there seem to have short memories. The USA has a population of 330million, COVID killed over 1million of us and debilitated millions more. It shortened our average life expectancy. The vaccine saved millions of lives.

Was the rt given the injection? How many people died of heart disease and cancer every year in the us? People die.
And how many people died from the isolation, drug abuse, etc due to covid mandates?

 

[nimbus]

Was the rt given the injection? How many people died of heart disease and cancer every year in the us? People die.
And how many people died from the isolation, drug abuse, etc due to covid mandates?

No he got sick in April 2020. We didn’t have vaccine until December 2020.

Leading Causes of Death in the US During the COVID-19 Pandemic

Using national death certificate data for 2020 and provisional data for 2021 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, this cross-sectional study examines the leading causes of death in the US, overall and in various age groups.

jamanetwork.com

 

[chessknt]

Not going to respond to this level of abject ignorance but I can say with absolute confidence there was not a single ICU nurse I ever worked with who was not vaccinated. We never saw a single person in the ICU from a vaccine reaction (yes that includes myocarditis). Incredible that doctors can let their personal beliefs negate reality to this level.

 

[PikminOC]

Not going to respond to this level of abject ignorance but I can say with absolute confidence there was not a single ICU nurse I ever worked with who was not vaccinated.

Many people including physicians quit their jobs at hospitals over the mandate. Northshore was sued over this and paid out over ten million. NorthShore reaches $10.3M settlement in vaccine mandate case. You wouldn't have been able to work with any icu nurses who weren't vaccinated due to the mandates

 

[PikminOC]

No he got sick in April 2020. We didn’t have vaccine until December 2020.

Leading Causes of Death in the US During the COVID-19 Pandemic

Using national death certificate data for 2020 and provisional data for 2021 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, this cross-sectional study examines the leading causes of death in the US, overall and in various age groups.

jamanetwork.com

No one died from not getting screenings during this time? People who couldn't get mammogram and colonoscopy?

 

[PikminOC]

Not going to respond to this level of abject ignorance but I can say with absolute confidence there was not a single ICU nurse I ever worked with who was not vaccinated. We never saw a single person in the ICU from a vaccine reaction (yes that includes myocarditis). Incredible that doctors can let their personal beliefs negate reality to this level.

So If you never saw a person in the icu have an issue with the injection, no other physician could have seen issues either?

 

[nimbus]

No one died from not getting screenings during this time? People who couldn't get mammogram and colonoscopy?

Cancer deaths seem pretty steady.

Anecdotally I work at a stroke center and we get a disproportionate number of COVID+ patients coming in for thrombectomies.

 

[PikminOC]

Cancer deaths seem pretty steady.

View attachment 359182View attachment 359183View attachment 359184

Were they diagnosed during that time when all the screening places were closed? We're any more advanced cases that could have been caught earlier with better treatment outcomes ?

 

[PikminOC]

Significant increase in suicides esp in kids and drug addiction. We will have to agree to disagree. Lost trillions of dollars and global supply chain issues due to society and economy shutting down. Mainly elderly people died. Not worth shutting down the US.

 

[nimbus]

Were they diagnosed during that time when all the screening places were closed? We're any more advanced cases that could have been caught earlier with better treatment outcomes ?

I don’t know the answer to your question but we did delay some cancer surgeries and cardiac surgeries when we had no ICU beds for the patients to go postop. Many of our SICU beds were occupied by nonsurgical COVID patients.

 

[McPoyle]

Nurses quitting in droves or let go because they didn't get the shot?

That was them quitting. They chose not to follow common sense guidance and chose to leave their job instead of protect themselves.

 

[nimbus]

Significant increase in suicides esp in kids and drug addiction. We will have to agree to disagree. Lost trillions of dollars and global supply chain issues due to society and economy shutting down. Mainly elderly people died. Not worth shutting down the US.

Don’t forget the psychosis and delusions from the vax

And did I hear you say “global”?

 

[PikminOC]

That was them quitting. They chose not to follow common sense guidance and chose to leave their job instead of protect themselves.

They chose to protect themselves by not getting the injection. Think about how big of a decision that was for these physicians and nurses to refuse. Even Djokovic, a top tennis player, is having consequences for this. And they all stick steadfast.

 

[PikminOC]

Don’t forget the psychosis and delusions from the vax

And did I hear you say “global”?

I can't post everything in every single post. Globally not everyone had the same access or mandates for the injection.