California Medical Misinformation Bill

[epidural man]

Not really. Kind of nit picky and irrelevant ..

I disagree. I think they are paramount.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[epidural man]

Not really. Kind of nit picky and irrelevant ..

Hoya11 -

I want you to think about and consider something. I know you are an educated, well-rounded, and likely very moral and kind and considerate person.

But is it possible that others who are also intelligent, caring, invested people who have thought that they would prefer that Pfizer not dictate policy with regard to public health? That given the serious and hugely consequential decisions that were made regarding our children (isolation, education, etc), and regarding health care workers, that they would have liked to know if the decisions made were based on science, not based on ego, political motivations, etc?

I find you answer a little flippant and it disregards a lot of people who are just like you but may think differently.

 

[Hoya11]

Hoya11 -

I want you to think about and consider something. I know you are an educated, well-rounded, and likely very moral and kind and considerate person.

But is it possible that others who are also intelligent, caring, invested people who have thought that they would prefer that Pfizer not dictate policy with regard to public health? That given the serious and hugely consequential decisions that were made regarding our children (isolation, education, etc), and regarding health care workers, that they would have liked to know if the decisions made were based on science, not based on ego, political motivations, etc?

I find you answer a little flippant and it disregards a lot of people who are just like you but may think differently.

Decisions were made for the betterment of public health at the expense of minor inconveniences and minor risk to the individual. Some of those individuals were just huge babies about it . I don’t believe anything nefarious with politics or corporations was involved. Have you seen lockdown measures in other countries?! Your complaining about the softy mandated vaccine ? Hard to sympathize with ..

 

[epidural man]

Decisions were made for the betterment of public health at the expense of minor inconveniences and minor risk to the individual. Some of those individuals were just huge babies about it . I don’t believe anything nefarious with politics or corporations was involved. Have you seen lockdown measures in other countries?! Your complaining about the softy mandated vaccine ? Hard to sympathize with ..

Sometimes people have a hard time sympathizing. I’m just suggesting that other opinions might be valid, or at least concerns be explored.

 

[deleted875186]

Sometimes people have a hard time sympathizing. I’m just suggesting that other opinions might be valid, or at least concerns be explored.

If someone has active tuberculosis, they are unable to travel in the United States, need to have negative sputuns, and the DPH will go as far as having a nurse visit to observe antibiotics being taken by the patient. This has been around for a long time. We have vaccines mandated for public schooling.

Then we have a global pandemic killing millions, and suddenly everyone has a problem with vaccines. Suddenly wearing a mask is a violation of your rights. Last I checked people can still refuse the vaccine.

 

[Neopolymath]

If someone has active tuberculosis, they are unable to travel in the United States, need to have negative sputuns, and the DPH will go as far as having a nurse visit to observe antibiotics being taken by the patient. This has been around for a long time. We have vaccines mandated for public schooling.

Then we have a global pandemic killing millions, and suddenly everyone has a problem with vaccines. Suddenly wearing a mask is a violation of your rights. Last I checked people can still refuse the vaccine.

Minor correction: The DPH can use *law enforcement* to make sure people aren't just running around in public with TB and force them to comply with isolation.

 

[GassYous]

If someone gets vaccinated and this decreases their viral count to the point where they may not be infectious or prevents illness in the first place, someone else that comes into contact with them has a lower chance of getting infected. I don't see how that's a difficult concept.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg6296

If you wear a mask then your chance of spreading disease is lower. I don't see how that's something that's debatable.

Natural immunity helps. I don't know if there's an exact point where you can say definitively that you've reached herd immunity but you can see that when you vaccinate most of the population, people stop getting measles mumps and rubella. When a certain portion of the population decides to stop vaccinating their children, you see that they start getting sick.

The virus is constantly mutating as it infects different hosts and combats immune systems that are primed to fight that variant. And yes vaccine boosters decrease chance of getting sick and decrease the severity of illness.

There is nothing that has been as studied as covid has over the past two years.

It's bizarre that people are still so against such basic low risk thing such as masks and vaccines. You'd think that if something bad were to happen on a significant scale, you'd see it after billions of vaccinations worldwide.

 

[PikminOC]

Hoya11 -

I want you to think about and consider something. I know you are an educated, well-rounded, and likely very moral and kind and considerate person.

But is it possible that others who are also intelligent, caring, invested people who have thought that they would prefer that Pfizer not dictate policy with regard to public health? That given the serious and hugely consequential decisions that were made regarding our children (isolation, education, etc), and regarding health care workers, that they would have liked to know if the decisions made were based on science, not based on ego, political motivations, etc?

I find you answer a little flippant and it disregards a lot of people who are just like you but may think differently.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

 

[deleted1116990]

Then we have a global pandemic killing millions, and suddenly everyone has a problem with vaccines. Suddenly wearing a mask is a violation of your rights.

More like suddenly we decided that cloth and surgical masks protected against airborne viruses when it was well understood for basically the entire prior century that they did not. Fauci knew this, and he quickly had to backtrack when it became politically necessary (same thing with vaccines, he is on record in the past discussing natural immunity stating you absolutely do not need a flu vaccine if you have recently recovered from the flu, which again we all know). It is amazing to me how the medical community just abandoned their prior knowledge of fit-tested single use N95 requirements to protect yourself and instead went all onboard with literally any face covering on not just yourself, but a potential source, and screamed at you for being selfish and "anti-science" if you questioned the logic of this and lampooned you if you suggested that something as simple as a mandatory face covering could have any negative societal impacts and do more harm that good. The possibility that this was just to give an appearance of doing something we largely had no control over beyond permanently locking everyone in their homes was discounted as a conspiracy theory. And you wonder why people became pissed off over this?

With regards to the vaccine issue, it was again a strawman argument (and speaking of strawmen, comparing covid which spreads like the common cold to how we control TB numbers is one hell of a strawman). If you had concerns about the mandatory vaccination of everyone using a novel method of vaccination (deviating from the basic concepts of live and inactivated pathogens used to vaccinate in the past) without any long term data regardless of risk factors and futility of the goal of eradication/reaching "zero covid," then you were lumped into the "anti-vaxx" nutjob crowd who thinks the polio and measles vaccine will give their child autism and are too risky. Again, you wonder why this pissed people off, especially when you tied their job to it?

If you take the concerns of regular, educated, normal, politically moderate people who don't post on Twitter 24/7 and call them science-denying anti-vaxxers and lump them in with the Jan 6 crowd, and accuse them of being complicit in killing millions, there is going to be some bad blood.

There are lots of us that desperately desire to return to a pre-Trump world of life without politics injected into it everywhere, but the covid mandates made it literally impossible to live life without being openly political. The vaxx and mask emoji Twitter crowd will never, ever come around on this and admit their shortcomings. I just hope one day they can understand where the very large number of non-insane people who had questions were coming from and stop accusing them of premeditating mass murder of grandmas.

 

[epidural man]

IIf you wear a mask then your chance of spreading disease is lower. I don't see how that's something that’s debatable

It’s debatable because it isn’t true.

It’s why the CDC said masks don’t work unless it is an N95 - type.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It’s debatable because it isn’t true.

It’s why the CDC said masks don’t work unless it is an N95 - type.

Link?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

More like suddenly we decided that cloth and surgical masks protected against airborne viruses when it was well understood for basically the entire prior century that they did not. Fauci knew this, and he quickly had to backtrack when it became politically necessary (same thing with vaccines, he is on record in the past discussing natural immunity stating you absolutely do not need a flu vaccine if you have recently recovered from the flu, which again we all know). It is amazing to me how the medical community just abandoned their prior knowledge of fit-tested single use N95 requirements to protect yourself and instead went all onboard with literally any face covering on not just yourself, but a potential source, and screamed at you for being selfish and "anti-science" if you questioned the logic of this and lampooned you if you suggested that something as simple as a mandatory face covering could have any negative societal impacts and do more harm that good. The possibility that this was just to give an appearance of doing something we largely had no control over beyond permanently locking everyone in their homes was discounted as a conspiracy theory. And you wonder why people became pissed off over this?

With regards to the vaccine issue, it was again a strawman argument (and speaking of strawmen, comparing covid which spreads like the common cold to how we control TB numbers is one hell of a strawman). If you had concerns about the mandatory vaccination of everyone using a novel method of vaccination (deviating from the basic concepts of live and inactivated pathogens used to vaccinate in the past) without any long term data regardless of risk factors and futility of the goal of eradication/reaching "zero covid," then you were lumped into the "anti-vaxx" nutjob crowd who thinks the polio and measles vaccine will give their child autism and are too risky. Again, you wonder why this pissed people off, especially when you tied their job to it?

If you take the concerns of regular, educated, normal, politically moderate people who don't post on Twitter 24/7 and call them science-denying anti-vaxxers and lump them in with the Jan 6 crowd, and accuse them of being complicit in killing millions, there is going to be some bad blood.

There are lots of us that desperately desire to return to a pre-Trump world of life without politics injected into it everywhere, but the covid mandates made it literally impossible to live life without being openly political. The vaxx and mask emoji Twitter crowd will never, ever come around on this and admit their shortcomings. I just hope one day they can understand where the very large number of non-insane people who had questions were coming from and stop accusing them of premeditating mass murder of grandmas.

The bold is utter nonsense. There's more than 1 kind of flu every year. So even if you get the flu you should absolutely still get the flu vaccine.

 

[epidural man]

If someone gets vaccinated and this decreases their viral count to the point where they may not be infectious or prevents illness in the first place, someone else that comes into contact with them has a lower chance of getting infected. I don't see how that's a difficult concept.

It’s not a difficult concept. It is a COMPLEX concept.

I ask again, how does a 20 y/o who has been infected (and from all available data, infection provides life long t-cell memory) getting immunized prevent an 82 y/o who has been immunized and boosted from getting admitted to the ICU? Take me through it step by step.

If you say “dummy - the 20 y/o getting immunized has a less chance of getting infected so therefore the society has less viral load! You IDIOT!!!” Then I would have to respond - that isn’t true. We actually know for a fact that if the 20 y/o was immunized or not, that 82 y/o will be exposed regardless, and thank goodness the immunizations work so well - THAT is what keeps him out of the ICU, not the status of the 20 y/o.

That’s my point, you guys who argue against….( actually I don’t even know what you are arguing other than if anyone disagrees with you they are stupid) …all REALLY don’t really believe the vaccine works.

 

[deleted875186]

More like suddenly we decided that cloth and surgical masks protected against airborne viruses when it was well understood for basically the entire prior century that they did not. Fauci knew this, and he quickly had to backtrack when it became politically necessary (same thing with vaccines, he is on record in the past discussing natural immunity stating you absolutely do not need a flu vaccine if you have recently recovered from the flu, which again we all know). It is amazing to me how the medical community just abandoned their prior knowledge of fit-tested single use N95 requirements to protect yourself and instead went all onboard with literally any face covering on not just yourself, but a potential source, and screamed at you for being selfish and "anti-science" if you questioned the logic of this and lampooned you if you suggested that something as simple as a mandatory face covering could have any negative societal impacts and do more harm that good. The possibility that this was just to give an appearance of doing something we largely had no control over beyond permanently locking everyone in their homes was discounted as a conspiracy theory. And you wonder why people became pissed off over this?

With regards to the vaccine issue, it was again a strawman argument (and speaking of strawmen, comparing covid which spreads like the common cold to how we control TB numbers is one hell of a strawman). If you had concerns about the mandatory vaccination of everyone using a novel method of vaccination (deviating from the basic concepts of live and inactivated pathogens used to vaccinate in the past) without any long term data regardless of risk factors and futility of the goal of eradication/reaching "zero covid," then you were lumped into the "anti-vaxx" nutjob crowd who thinks the polio and measles vaccine will give their child autism and are too risky. Again, you wonder why this pissed people off, especially when you tied their job to it?

If you take the concerns of regular, educated, normal, politically moderate people who don't post on Twitter 24/7 and call them science-denying anti-vaxxers and lump them in with the Jan 6 crowd, and accuse them of being complicit in killing millions, there is going to be some bad blood.

There are lots of us that desperately desire to return to a pre-Trump world of life without politics injected into it everywhere, but the covid mandates made it literally impossible to live life without being openly political. The vaxx and mask emoji Twitter crowd will never, ever come around on this and admit their shortcomings. I just hope one day they can understand where the very large number of non-insane people who had questions were coming from and stop accusing them of premeditating mass murder of grandmas.

Masks do help prevent spread and transmission, they do not eliminate it, and obviously are not in the same league as N95. We have required masking for respiratory infections like flu, URI, etc, in the hosptial long before Covid.

Tell me how comparing Covid to TB is ridiculous? Covid is a deadly disease, especially with the initial surge. TB is a slow growing disease that can be treated with antibiotics, and is not as easily transmitted as Covid. But you think mandates around TB are different than Covid?

 

[deleted1116990]

The bold is utter nonsense. There's more than 1 kind of flu every year. So even if you get the flu you should absolutely still get the flu vaccine.

Don't shoot the messenger.

As someone who had a reaction to and complications from the flu vaccine as a healthy young man, I almost certainly have a different opinion on its worth than you for different populations. We are already wading into a world where covid vaccines will become a nearly mandated annual thing (after the public was told they would be good after the first vaccine) regardless of how serious later covid variations become for different age and risk groups. Covid will never be allowed to become the common cold, regardless of how mild the illness it causes becomes, which we don't vaccinate for, try to contain with masks, or really even miss work for.

Tell me how comparing Covid to TB is ridiculous? Covid is a deadly disease, especially with the initial surge. TB is a slow growing disease that can be treated with antibiotics, and is not as easily transmitted as Covid. But you think mandates around TB are different than Covid?

To answer your last question directly, yes. Regardless of the vastly different transmission profile and illnesses these pathogens cause, covid was a novel coronavirus nobody had immunity to. We now have widespread circulating immunity of various levels and covid is not a deadly threat to the vast, vast majority of the population. It is suspicious that some do not want to celebrate this accomplishment, let alone recognize it, and instead want to perpetuate the fear state of trying to prevent infections at all costs and launch into whataboutisms of long-covid vagueness and one off examples of a 45 year old that died in 2020. 45 year olds aren't dropping dead in any meaningful numbers from covid right now, vaccinated or not. They just aren't. The argument is fruitless at this point, but as long as mandates are continued to be pushed, we can't avoid it. If you want to wear multiple masks and get shots every few months, fine it's a free country, but the argument that you can force everyone else to do it too is rapidly losing scientific credibility and devolving into take-your-shoes-off-at-TSA-checkpoint territory.

 

[epidural man]

Link?

That Study of Face Masks Does Not Show What the CDC Claims

The agency further undermines its credibility by desperately trying to back up conclusions it has already reached.

reason.com

 

[deleted1116990]

I ask again, how does a 20 y/o who has been infected (and from all available data, infection provides life long t-cell memory) getting immunized prevent an 82 y/o who has been immunized and boosted from getting admitted to the ICU? Take me through it step by step.

The argument used to be one of probability -- that reducing the viral load of the 20 year old through vaccination and physical blockade regardless of showing symptoms, even if only 10% effective, would reduce both the possibility of infection and severity of infection if it were to occur in the 82 year old. However, with a virus so incredibly infectious with an R0 approaching 10 for omicron, this was proven not to be true. And the hypothesis that infection from a lower viral load would result in a clinically less severe infection was also disproven. Additionally, the risk of hospitalization and death in the 82 year old also factored into this calculation, which as we know, has been drastically reduced with the vaccines.

The reality is that there is a minority of the population that simply does not believe into return to a pre-covid world, ever, as long as there is a single covid virion still on the planet. I am still getting text messages from county health officials notifying me of how to sign up for exposure tracking. There are those that believe we shouldn't, right at this point in time, let a 30 year old professional tennis player who has had covid but not the vaccine into the country because he might introduce dangerously contribute to the spread of a deadly disease. I'm not sure how we co-exist going forward with this contingent of the population accusing everyone else without merit of endangering lives.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

That Study of Face Masks Does Not Show What the CDC Claims

The agency further undermines its credibility by desperately trying to back up conclusions it has already reached.

reason.com

That doesn't say what you claimed it did

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Don't shoot the messenger.

As someone who had a reaction to and complications from the flu vaccine as a healthy young man, I almost certainly have a different opinion on its worth than you for different populations. We are already wading into a world where covid vaccines will become a nearly mandated annual thing (after the public was told they would be good after the first vaccine) regardless of how serious later covid variations become for different age and risk groups. Covid will never be allowed to become the common cold, regardless of how mild the illness it causes becomes, which we don't vaccinate for, try to contain with masks, or really even miss work for.



To answer your last question directly, yes. Regardless of the vastly different transmission profile and illnesses these pathogens cause, covid was a novel coronavirus nobody had immunity to. We now have widespread circulating immunity of various levels and covid is not a deadly threat to the vast, vast majority of the population. It is suspicious that some do not want to celebrate this accomplishment, let alone recognize it, and instead want to perpetuate the fear state of trying to prevent infections at all costs and launch into whataboutisms of long-covid vagueness and one off examples of a 45 year old that died in 2020. 45 year olds aren't dropping dead in any meaningful numbers from covid right now, vaccinated or not. They just aren't. The argument is fruitless at this point, but as long as mandates are continued to be pushed, we can't avoid it. If you want to wear multiple masks and get shots every few months, fine it's a free country, but the argument that you can force everyone else to do it too is rapidly losing scientific credibility and devolving into take-your-shoes-off-at-TSA-checkpoint territory.

Of course if you had a severe reaction to the flu vaccine that changes things but that's not germane to the general advice I gave.

Also it's worth noting that 2004 was the year we had a huge shortage of flu shots.

 

[deleted875186]

Don't shoot the messenger.

As someone who had a reaction to and complications from the flu vaccine as a healthy young man, I almost certainly have a different opinion on its worth than you for different populations. We are already wading into a world where covid vaccines will become a nearly mandated annual thing (after the public was told they would be good after the first vaccine) regardless of how serious later covid variations become for different age and risk groups. Covid will never be allowed to become the common cold, regardless of how mild the illness it causes becomes, which we don't vaccinate for, try to contain with masks, or really even miss work for.



To answer your last question directly, yes. Regardless of the vastly different transmission profile and illnesses these pathogens cause, covid was a novel coronavirus nobody had immunity to. We now have widespread circulating immunity of various levels and covid is not a deadly threat to the vast, vast majority of the population. It is suspicious that some do not want to celebrate this accomplishment, let alone recognize it, and instead want to perpetuate the fear state of trying to prevent infections at all costs and launch into whataboutisms of long-covid vagueness and one off examples of a 45 year old that died in 2020. 45 year olds aren't dropping dead in any meaningful numbers from covid right now, vaccinated or not. They just aren't. The argument is fruitless at this point, but as long as mandates are continued to be pushed, we can't avoid it. If you want to wear multiple masks and get shots every few months, fine it's a free country, but the argument that you can force everyone else to do it too is rapidly losing scientific credibility and devolving into take-your-shoes-off-at-TSA-checkpoint territory.

Not perpetuating fear, just saying that requiring masks during a Covid surge is a reasonable thing to do. I believe everyone should make their own decision about vaccines, but a public health policy of masking in public during a significant Covid surge is reasonable.

I don’t believe yojr statement that Covid is now a low risk disease is true, although obviously subsequent variants have been less lethal.

Also, TSA still checks shoes, so not sure what your point is. I don’t mind taking my shoes off when I get on a plane, just like I don’t mind wearing a mask tj avoid breathing over people in the supermarket.

 

[gunnershow]

I don’t mind taking my shoes off when I get on a plane

Of all the absurd comments in this thread, this one takes the cake.

 

[GassYous]

You can't make statements like "this has been disproven" when that's not the case and you don't even post any evidence of your statements. I don't believe in mandates and the virus is definitely less lethal than it was. But propagating falsehoods like "masks don't work" is just doing a disservice to everyone. Masking definitely helped things a lot and it is an incredibly low risk thing to do.

And the argument about the flu is such nonsense. There are obviously many different kinds of flu as you would know as a physician that has learned about the different subtypes from the hemaglutinin and neuraminidase. The flu vaccine is a predictive vaccine that is developed to target what is thought to be the most likely 3-4 subtypes for the future flu season. If you get the flu and it's the same subtype as the predominant strain then you have very good protection. But it doesn't necessarily protect against other subtypes. Anyone who went through medical school should know that.

 

[epidural man]

That doesn't say what you claimed it did

you are right, I misspoke. - CDC says you get a 9% advantage with "masks" - but they spend an INORDINATE amount of time trying to explain how masks stop droplets (which is obvious), but don't then mention that COVID doesn't spread on droplets. I wonder why that is.

I included the link, because it links to the CDC updated guidelines when they came out and said cloth masks don't work, N95's do, and based on some really crappy studies, maybe surgical masks slow the spread. It also has a great discussion about why the CDC is either horrible at interpreting data, or they lie.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

Also, TSA still checks shoes, so not sure what your point is.

The whole point is that we are still taking our shoes off for theatrical purposes 20 years later.

Unless we pay a small fee to our government and get “pre checked” oh and don’t forget to pay that fee again 5 years later or you are suddenly a high shoe risk again.

Why not strip down to your underwear and do a cartwheel before you get on an airplane? It makes about as much sense.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

you are right, I misspoke. - CDC says you get a 9% advantage with "masks" - but they spend an INORDINATE amount of time trying to explain how masks stop droplets (which is obvious), but don't then mention that COVID doesn't spread on droplets. I wonder why that is.

I included the link, because it links to the CDC updated guidelines when they came out and said cloth masks don't work, N95's do, and based on some really crappy studies, maybe surgical masks slow the spread. It also has a great discussion about why the CDC is either horrible at interpreting data, or they lie.

COVID does spread on droplets like every respiratory virus ever. It just can ALSO be aerosolized. Plus, we know that for viral infections initial inoculant matters.

Based on that, masks very likely offer some protection. Non-N95s won't give you 95+% protection like N95s but they will decrease your risk of getting sick by some degree.

It all goes back to the risk/benefit thing that's drilled in all of our heads. Let's say a regular surgical mask cuts your risk of catching COVID by 20%. That's not all that impressive, but given that masks are 99.99% harmless its clearly worth it in certain settings.

Wearing a mask outside in every circumstance other than a crowd doesn't make sense. Indoor areas with decent numbers of other people? That does make sense.

 

[deleted1116990]

You can't make statements like "this has been disproven" when that's not the case and you don't even post any evidence of your statements. I don't believe in mandates and the virus is definitely less lethal than it was. But propagating falsehoods like "masks don't work" is just doing a disservice to everyone. Masking definitely helped things a lot and it is an incredibly low risk thing to do.

And the argument about the flu is such nonsense. There are obviously many different kinds of flu as you would know as a physician that has learned about the different subtypes from the hemaglutinin and neuraminidase. The flu vaccine is a predictive vaccine that is developed to target what is thought to be the most likely 3-4 subtypes for the future flu season. If you get the flu and it's the same subtype as the predominant strain then you have very good protection. But it doesn't necessarily protect against other subtypes. Anyone who went through medical school should know that.

Frontiers | On the SARS-CoV-2 “Variolation Hypothesis”: No Association Between Viral Load of Index Cases and COVID-19 Severity of Secondary Cases

Background: Emerging evidence supports the “variolation hypothesis” in severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2), but the derivative idea ...

www.frontiersin.org

Ok. We can say it's not proven that viral load presented at the time of infection correlates to disease severity. Perhaps you are right that it will never be irrefutably proven either way with high quality randomized controlled data. It's debatable, at best, but if you look at what actually happened to people who consistently wore masks in public, if they got infected less and if they got less severe disease. There are so many confounding variables, so all you're left with is "can't hurt might help" but at the same time talking about questioning the science as if it is as established Newton's second law -- you can't have it both ways. Most of the data is not good, and obviously if you love making asymptomatic people wear masks you are not going to like findings like these and seek out findings that support the variolation hypothesis.

Regarding the flu comments, um, tell that to Tony Fauci? The comment about immunity to different strains from the vaccine is valid, but was not the point. The point was the curious refusal early on the recognize the phenomenon of natural immunity. As multiple different mutants evolve, perhaps this matters less, but it's unclear what level of cross immunity exists from infection or vaccination against slightly different viruses. The argument is basically just do it, don't think about it, can't hurt might help. And that's where this discussion breaks down as many reject the premise that across the board mandates "can't hurt" and want a very solid scientific rationale if the public is going to be forced by law to do things to their bodies and livelihoods they may not want to. During a real public health emergency, I don't think many oppose loosening this rationale and forcing people to isolate and take novel vaccines without long-term data. But we are beyond that now and cannot continue public health emergency measures for the rest of our lives so long as the virus is out there causing cold-like symptoms that resolve sporadically for the overwhelming majority of people who become symptomatic from it. This is TSA-shoe territory. Maybe we can make a federal Covid Security Administration (CSA) department and spend billions on it every year forever.

Just because you don't mind taking your shoes off for TSA for no good reason doesn't mean it's ok to discount the concerns of those who do mind. Perhaps I would feel better flying on an airplane if everyone had to undergo a body cavity search and full background check. Perhaps if I had a severe peanut allergy I would feel better if restaurants were prohibited by law from serving peanuts but diners could bring them themselves to sprinkle on top if they wanted. Can't hurt might help? Do my feelings and my worries matter more that I get to make other people jump through hoops?

 

[deleted1116990]

Indoor areas with decent numbers of other people? That does make sense.

We are not living on the same planet if you think making people wear masks at concerts, in bars, at conferences, in classrooms, etc. is acceptable on a societal level indefinitely as long as covid is still infecting people in the community, which by all evidence we have right now it will be forever like other coronaviruses that infect humans.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

If one’s license is taken by a state, how difficult is it to get one in another state?

Possible to revoke board certification?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

We are not living on the same planet if you think making people wear masks at concerts, in bars, at conferences, in classrooms, etc. is acceptable on a societal level indefinitely as long as covid is still infecting people in the community, which by all evidence we have right now it will be forever like other coronaviruses that infect humans.

At the current time and given Omnicron's significantly reduced severity, I agree.

During Delta, you're wrong and masks should have been worn in most indoor areas.

 

[deleted875186]

Frontiers | On the SARS-CoV-2 “Variolation Hypothesis”: No Association Between Viral Load of Index Cases and COVID-19 Severity of Secondary Cases

Background: Emerging evidence supports the “variolation hypothesis” in severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2), but the derivative idea ...

www.frontiersin.org

Ok. We can say it's not proven that viral load presented at the time of infection correlates to disease severity. Perhaps you are right that it will never be irrefutably proven either way with high quality randomized controlled data. It's debatable, at best, but if you look at what actually happened to people who consistently wore masks in public, if they got infected less and if they got less severe disease. There are so many confounding variables, so all you're left with is "can't hurt might help" but at the same time talking about questioning the science as if it is as established Newton's second law -- you can't have it both ways. Most of the data is not good, and obviously if you love making asymptomatic people wear masks you are not going to like findings like these and seek out findings that support the variolation hypothesis.

Regarding the flu comments, um, tell that to Tony Fauci? The comment about immunity to different strains from the vaccine is valid, but was not the point. The point was the curious refusal early on the recognize the phenomenon of natural immunity. As multiple different mutants evolve, perhaps this matters less, but it's unclear what level of cross immunity exists from infection or vaccination against slightly different viruses. The argument is basically just do it, don't think about it, can't hurt might help. And that's where this discussion breaks down as many reject the premise that across the board mandates "can't hurt" and want a very solid scientific rationale if the public is going to be forced by law to do things to their bodies and livelihoods they may not want to. During a real public health emergency, I don't think many oppose loosening this rationale and forcing people to isolate and take novel vaccines without long-term data. But we are beyond that now and cannot continue public health emergency measures for the rest of our lives so long as the virus is out there causing cold-like symptoms that resolve sporadically for the overwhelming majority of people who become symptomatic from it. This is TSA-shoe territory. Maybe we can make a federal Covid Security Administration (CSA) department and spend billions on it every year forever.

Just because you don't mind taking your shoes off for TSA for no good reason doesn't mean it's ok to discount the concerns of those who do mind. Perhaps I would feel better flying on an airplane if everyone had to undergo a body cavity search and full background check. Perhaps if I had a severe peanut allergy I would feel better if restaurants were prohibited by law from serving peanuts but diners could bring them themselves to sprinkle on top if they wanted. Can't hurt might help? Do my feelings and my worries matter more that I get to make other people jump through hoops?

I agree. Masking indefinitely is not a reasonable approach. We now have detection such as sewer water monitoring for viral load, and can tell when an area is having a surge, I think masking during surges is a good idea, this is entirely different from the TSA shoe analogy because you have evidence during a surge that there is a much higher risk of contracting the disease.

 

[PikminOC]

You can't make statements like "this has been disproven" when that's not the case and you don't even post any evidence of your statements. I don't believe in mandates and the virus is definitely less lethal than it was. But propagating falsehoods like "masks don't work" is just doing a disservice to everyone. Masking definitely helped things a lot and it is an incredibly low risk thing to do.

And the argument about the flu is such nonsense. There are obviously many different kinds of flu as you would know as a physician that has learned about the different subtypes from the hemaglutinin and neuraminidase. The flu vaccine is a predictive vaccine that is developed to target what is thought to be the most likely 3-4 subtypes for the future flu season. If you get the flu and it's the same subtype as the predominant strain then you have very good protection. But it doesn't necessarily protect against other subtypes. Anyone who went through medical school should know that.

There are other consequences to the masking and isolation. I have already enumerated those earlier.

 

[GassYous]

Isolation I can buy. But I doubt that masking has a serious societal effect. You do realize that everyone here in the anesthesiology forums wears a mask for work every day?

I rarely wear masks outside of work now as covid is low prevalence and low virulence. But the masks and lockdowns definitely had a positive role in decreasing spread, admissions and deaths which has been well documented. Risks clearly outweighed the benefits. Nowadays not so much and that's why no one is requiring you to mask or show proof of vaccination to go into a restaurant these days. You guys are tilting against windmills. But the thing is you were probably saying these things back when they were necessary and led to unnecessary morbidity and mortality but cannot deal with the cognitive dissonance of accepting that responsibility.

 

[PikminOC]

Isolation I can buy. But I doubt that masking has a serious societal effect. You do realize that everyone here in the anesthesiology forums wears a mask for work every day?

I rarely wear masks outside of work now as covid is low prevalence and low virulence. But the masks and lockdowns definitely had a positive role in decreasing spread, admissions and deaths which has been well documented. Risks clearly outweighed the benefits. Nowadays not so much and that's why no one is requiring you to mask or show proof of vaccination to go into a restaurant these days. You guys are tilting against windmills. But the thing is you were probably saying these things back when they were necessary and led to unnecessary morbidity and mortality but cannot deal with the cognitive dissonance of accepting that responsibility.

For kids development, social skills, speech. Not everything is about adults. And I moved to state that didn't require these draconian measures.

 

[nimbus]

For kids development, social skills, speech. Not everything is about adults. And I moved to state that didn't require these draconian measures.

You make a lot of definitive statements about topics that are not settled. It’s fine to express a concern but don’t act as if it is settled science that vaccines cause psychosis or masks cause developmental issues.

And you never answered my question about how many cases of COVID vaccine induced psychosis and delusions you’ve actually seen. You claimed in an earlier post that as a psychiatrist you’ve seen “many”. Is it 0 many, 1 many, or 50 many? I’ve heard of 0 many in my large circle of vaccinated friends, acquaintances, and coworkers.

 

[PikminOC]

You make a lot of definitive statements about topics that are not settled. It’s fine to express a concern but don’t act as if it is settled science that vaccines cause psychosis or masks cause developmental issues.

And you never answered my question about how many cases of COVID vaccine induced psychosis and delusions you’ve actually seen. You claimed in an earlier post that as a psychiatrist you’ve seen “many”. Is it 0 many, 1 many, or 50 many? I’ve heard of 0 many in my large circle of vaccinated friends, acquaintances, and coworkers.

I've seen three. I have a small concierge practice. So it's alot.

 

[PikminOC]

You make a lot of definitive statements about topics that are not settled. It’s fine to express a concern but don’t act as if it is settled science that vaccines cause psychosis or masks cause developmental issues.

And you never answered my question about how many cases of COVID vaccine induced psychosis and delusions you’ve actually seen. You claimed in an earlier post that as a psychiatrist you’ve seen “many”. Is it 0 many, 1 many, or 50 many? I’ve heard of 0 many in my large circle of vaccinated friends, acquaintances, and coworkers.

Just because it's not settled doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

[GassYous]

I've seen three. I have a small concierge practice. So it's alot.

Where are the long term studies and safety trials to prove that it is masking and brief quarantines that caused it

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I think

COVID does spread on droplets like every respiratory virus ever. It just can ALSO be aerosolized. Plus, we know that for viral infections initial inoculant matters.

Based on that, masks very likely offer some protection. Non-N95s won't give you 95+% protection like N95s but they will decrease your risk of getting sick by some degree.

It all goes back to the risk/benefit thing that's drilled in all of our heads. Let's say a regular surgical mask cuts your risk of catching COVID by 20%. That's not all that impressive, but given that masks are 99.99% harmless its clearly worth it in certain settings.

Wearing a mask outside in every circumstance other than a crowd doesn't make sense. Indoor areas with decent numbers of other people? That does make sense.

Agree wearing masks outdoors makes no sense. When I see people driving alone in the car with a mask on, I understand why they put directions on shampoo bottles.

 

[deleted875186]

For kids development, social skills, speech. Not everything is about adults. And I moved to state that didn't require these draconian measures.

I personally don’t buy it, but I accept that it is possible. I agree kids with speech difficulty should be exempt from masking just like kids with autism who can’t handle the mask are exempt. You seem to be generalizing that for these specific reasons we shouldn’t be masking at all in schools, which is quite a leap. Most kids don’t mind the masks.

 

[nimbus]

I've seen three. I have a small concierge practice. So it's alot.

That is a lot for a small concierge practice. Are these established patients or are these new onset psychosis patients referred to your small concierge practice from psych ER?

 

[GassYous]

That is a lot for a small concierge practice. Are these established patients or are these new onset psychosis patients referred to your small concierge practice from psych ER?

Maybe it was vaccinations

 

[PikminOC]

That is a lot for a small concierge practice. Are these established patients or are these new onset psychosis patients referred to your small concierge practice from psych ER?

New onset. One from er, one from neuropsychologist, one who found me online.

 

[PikminOC]

Where are the long term studies and safety trials to prove that it is masking and brief quarantines that caused it

From the COVID injection.

 

[PikminOC]

I personally don’t buy it, but I accept that it is possible. I agree kids with speech difficulty should be exempt from masking just like kids with autism who can’t handle the mask are exempt. You seem to be generalizing that for these specific reasons we shouldn’t be masking at all in schools, which is quite a leap. Most kids don’t mind the masks.

The kids falling behind due to mandates, increased anxiety depression and suicide due to isolation is easily searchable. Surge of Student Suicides Pushes Las Vegas Schools to Reopen (Published 2021)

Child Psychiatrists Warn That The Pandemic May Be Driving Up Kids' Suicide Risk

A cluster of suicides in Las Vegas, plus a troubling rise in youth suicide attempts observed in ERs nationwide, is raising fears that the pandemic is fueling a children's mental health crisis.

www.npr.org

 

[deleted1116990]

I personally don’t buy it, but I accept that it is possible. I agree kids with speech difficulty should be exempt from masking just like kids with autism who can’t handle the mask are exempt. You seem to be generalizing that for these specific reasons we shouldn’t be masking at all in schools, which is quite a leap. Most kids don’t mind the masks.

They are children, not teenagers. They will do whatever the authority figures at the school tell them to. Do you not remember being 9 and being terrified of going to the principles office?

They will also believe anything. I remember very clearly being in 3rd grade and being told in D.A.R.E. that there were bad guys out there on the street trying to get me addicted to drugs. I became paranoid that strangers were going to try and stab me with needles and put LSD stickers on me. Because I was 9. I started washing my hands all the time because I was afraid I had touched something laced with drugs and my mom had to take me to therapy. What we do to children has consequences, and I can't even imagine what putting them all in masks and telling them they might die from COVID will do.

There was never a good reason to put kids in masks IMO. Many countries in Europe didn't do it. Yes, there will always be a one off example of a child that died from covid. It was extremely rare. If masks prevent respiratory viruses, then logically they should have been wearing them every winter to prevent influenza, but 3 years ago everyone would have agreed that that was crazy.

 

[PikminOC]

They are children, not teenagers. They will do whatever the authority figures at the school tell them to. Do you not remember being 9 and being terrified of going to the principles office?

They will also believe anything. I remember very clearly being in 3rd grade and being told in D.A.R.E. that there were bad guys out there on the street trying to get me addicted to drugs. I became paranoid that strangers were going to try and stab me with needles and put LSD stickers on me. Because I was 9. I started washing my hands all the time because I was afraid I had touched something laced with drugs and my mom had to take me to therapy. What we do to children has consequences, and I can't even imagine what putting them all in masks and telling them they might die from COVID will do.

There was never a good reason to put kids in masks IMO. Many countries in Europe didn't do it. Yes, there will always be a one off example of a child that died from covid. It was extremely rare. If masks prevent respiratory viruses, then logically they should have been wearing them every winter to prevent influenza, but 3 years ago everyone would have agreed that that was crazy.

Yes the kids I treat are scared.

 

[deleted1116990]

Yes the kids I treat are scared.

Besides drugs and D.A.R.E. they did the same thing with AIDS. Maybe not all kids are susceptible to this, but some definitely are. They didn't explain what AIDS was or what specific types of activities put you at risk for it. I became paranoid at the same age that if I cut my hand in public that someone else infected had contaminated whatever I cut myself on and I was going to get it and die. It sounds funny now, but back then to a child it caused me all sorts of distress and OCD-like symptoms and made me afraid of people.

But hey, I never got AIDS or did drugs. Great success.

 

[PikminOC]

Besides drugs and D.A.R.E. they did the same thing with AIDS. Maybe not all kids are susceptible to this, but some definitely are. They didn't explain what AIDS was or what specific types of activities put you at risk for it. I became paranoid at the same age that if I cut my hand in public that someone else infected had contaminated whatever I cut myself on and I was going to get it and die. It sounds funny now, but back then to a child it caused me all sorts of distress and OCD-like symptoms and made me afraid of people.

But hey, I never got AIDS or did drugs. Great success.

Yes and this is exactly what I'm seeing with the masking and mandates too.

 

[LaryngoSpazz]

For those having a lively discussion with epidural man, moonbeams, and heist. Let’s say we all lived in cali.

1. If you were on the medical board there would you vote to discipline them in some way for spreading misinformation?

2. Would you vote to discipline someone like Dr. Rand Paul?

3. How would you feel if the political power structure changed and you were a practicing physician but the medical board was made up of epidural man, moonbeams and heist?

 

[PikminOC]

For those having a lively discussion with epidural man, moonbeams, and heist. Let’s say we all lived in cali.

1. If you were on the medical board there would you vote to discipline them in some way for spreading misinformation?

2. Would you vote to discipline someone like Dr. Rand Paul?

3. How would you feel if the political power structure changed and you were a practicing physician but the medical board was made up of epidural man, moonbeams and heist?

I'm a fan of less government intervention.