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I was much more referring to the reactions gyngyn and I have been getting from the "true believers".
California Northstate gains Accreditation
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Ahh that makes sense. My apologies for the misinterpretation!
First, I'm just PGY-1, man, no need for such formalities. Unless that's what makes you comfortable.. then do whatever I guess.
I'd recommend ignoring them unless it gives you a perverse joy in egging them on like I do. Fair-minded readers will know to filter things out.
No, I don't think this is unique to CNU. If I had noticed a similar thread about any new school I'd say the same. Although CNU is the only for-profit among the LCME schools and as such gives all of us pause.
Again, not unique. But I'd wager that CNU grads will have the steepest uphill battle here (this is speculation.). Newness hurts everyone of course (this is NOT speculation). But I guarantee there are not a small number of PDs that'll look at CNU's for-profit status and dismiss your application right off the bat. This feeds into a later point I'll be making. I'm not saying this is fair, btw. Just what it is.
I would say that one would be wrong, then, within a 99.9% margin of safety.
I was engaging in the same thought exercise tempered with the realities that are gleaned through experience. Even if you assume similar performance and similar board scores that's like part 1 of 15 of the real game, which is getting to the match. After you attain your favorable board score it's ALL intangibles. Your chairman's letter at CNU might come from a non-board certified physician (!!!!!!). Your other recs from your home school are a bunch of nobodies. Your school is a complete unknown to the PD. The PD already (possibly/likely/maybe) has a bias against your school based on its for-profit status. There are A LOT of factors working against you. It may very well not stop you for matching (indeed, I'd wager the majority of the class, if not everyone, at CNU is going to match), but it'll definitely (not speculation) bump you down a few notches on your rank list had you been a comparable candidate from another school.
Fair enough. But seriously those primary colors hurt my eyes at night and are super aesthetically aggravating, can you please at least some different colors?
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since anoonymouse is all about logic and reasoning in his arguments, and keepign in mind he/she is hoping to attend CNU in august:
post hoc rationalization
Post hoc rationalizations are arguments made by (organizational) actors in order to try to justify decisions they have made without considering the scientific evidence or in more or less irrational ways.
post hoc rationalization
Post hoc rationalizations are arguments made by (organizational) actors in order to try to justify decisions they have made without considering the scientific evidence or in more or less irrational ways.
Haha. Just trying to be respectful, Dr. RogueUnicorn. Call me misguided, call me stubborn, call me a fan of primary colors -- but the least I can do is insert a modicum of civility into this (at times, very snarky, insulting, and contentious) thread.
Agreed. It gives me pause, as well -- and I have consistently said that there are many red flags about CNUCOM that worry me (that should worry us all).
Yes, the jury is still out on CNUCOM (preliminary accreditation in 2015) vs. CUNY (2015) vs. UT at Austin (2015) vs. other established medical schools. Yes, agreed that any new program faces an uphill battle.
Judging by the reaction here at SDN, I would venture to guess that you're right.
In all sincerity, thank you for sharing your experience and perspective, Dr. RogueUnicorn. That being said, if in your final estimation a hypothetical graduate would still match (albeit, most likely not in neurosurgery) and would just be bumped "down a few notches" on the rank list -- well, I daresay some of us aspiring to stay in northern California (for one reason or another) would be willing to make that Faustian bargain.
Not an easy decision, to be sure. Lots of things to watch out for; lots of research to be done (here at SDN and elsewhere); lots of things that need to fall in line (i.e. ideally one would have significant financial backing and/or resources, not aspire to practice in an ultra-competitive specialty, and be a flexible, independent, self-starter). But some aspiring physicians -- not all of them mediocre -- would be willing to take the risk. Caveat emptor, and all that.
Haha, very well Dr. RogueUnicorn. Thank you for your detailed, candid, and courteous reply.
Respectfully,
Moose
I've noticed a lot of the criticisms have been baseless hearsay that have already been disproved.
Looks like two of the biggest criticisms I've seen throughout this topic is that one faculty isn't board certified, and another is just a PHD candidate. With just a little research, you'd know that the former isn't an instructor, and the latter is just a teacher's assistant like you have in every university. A lot of MD faculty are also qualified and they aren't all "foreign". (famous in Kaiser Sacramento, another went to Cal and UCLA). I personally don't even see anything wrong with foreign graduates. A lot of my science professors at Stanford didn't get their PHD in the US, and some of them were my favorite professors.
I guess it's easier to blindly criticize than look up facts.
Looks like two of the biggest criticisms I've seen throughout this topic is that one faculty isn't board certified, and another is just a PHD candidate. With just a little research, you'd know that the former isn't an instructor, and the latter is just a teacher's assistant like you have in every university. A lot of MD faculty are also qualified and they aren't all "foreign". (famous in Kaiser Sacramento, another went to Cal and UCLA). I personally don't even see anything wrong with foreign graduates. A lot of my science professors at Stanford didn't get their PHD in the US, and some of them were my favorite professors.
I guess it's easier to blindly criticize than look up facts.
I'm not making a declaration of any kind of event--just facts. Any new school is going to have hiccups. Even if it's a new branch of an existing system, you'll still have new professors, new administrators, etc., all working together to develop and implement new curricula and policies. It's inherent.
I was arguing WMU had a leg up in the process--they were already accomodating DO and MD medical students as a "base site" for MSU, and they had residency programs for every major specialty except OB-Gyn. That will help ease hiccups since a lot of the kinks of clerkships have been worked out--obviously the clerkships need to be expanded for a higher student population, but most of the building blocks are there.
Northstate doesn't have any of that. It doesn't mean I think they'll fail. It doesn't mean I think it'll be a terrible education. What it does mean is it's a gamble--aside from the dean (per this thread) being a dean at UC Davis, this school doesn't seem to have any actual experience. No prior clerkships like WMU. No existing residencies and close relationships to teaching hospitals like WMU. The for-profit thing doesn't bother me much--but the fact they are rushing their inaugural class makes me question their motives, and the fact they are in fact for-profit lends more suspicion.
There are a lot of red flags about this school--you put those all together and to me it means people that go here will be taking a big gamble. I'm sure the students will graduate (I doubt a modern medical school will go belly-up)--the question is will the quality of the education and clerkships be good, and how will residency placement be.
In all fairness, I probably would've said the exact same thing about RVU, though my understanding is it didn't have anywhere near the number of red flags. As I mentioned, I know graduates from RVU and the ones I know are doing very well--it's certainly possible the Northstate students will do very well. I suspect the ones that excel will be self-starters and study well on their own, and won't be dependent on the curriculum to learn medicine.
Still, with all honesty, were I in the same shoes as the applicants on this thread, I would
1) Not go to the Caribbean under any circumstance
2) Reapply next year if Northstate was my only option
2) Certainly reapply if I was just hoping to jump on the "fast trak" to medical school and hadn't even applied for a full cycle
3) Go to Northstate if I applied 2 cycles already without any success, still dream of being a physician (and am ok with a less competitive specialty), either have access to a lot of money (parents?) or am ok with borrowing $300k of private loans at variable rates (or fixed rates slightly above/below federal loan rates).
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The only reason I see them rushing the enrollment process is that they want to be fully accredited as soon as possible. They have their facilities, they have their curriculum (apparently highly praised by the LCME), and the faculty are ready to teach. They rather start now than sit on their hands for a year.
Could see the negatives of not waiting a year, but I don't think it's anything shady like others are making it out to be.
Could see the negatives of not waiting a year, but I don't think it's anything shady like others are making it out to be.
gyngyn is referring to the CHAIR of an academic department, not a mere instructor. And we're discussing a medical school, not any run of the mill UG school. All five med schools I've been around from grad student through Faculty level never once had to make do a with pre-graduate TA in an Anatomy lab. They all had Faculty teaching. Of all the faculty candidates in the US, this is the best they could do? Not even a chiropractor?
Having seen how med schools start up, and seen the faculty recruitment and hiring process in action, when I compare CNU faculty to any at the new MD schools in the US...the contrast is so stark, it's chilling. Hence my reaction. And I'm knock knocking foreign training, since I have two wonderful FMG colleagues of my own. But I've never, ever seen a proportion like what CNU has to any new med school has had, MD or DO.
But since you're so vested in the school, just go and don't look back. And good luck.
You can add that unless one is 100% committed to having the MD initials after the name, that following 2), apply to DO schools should be added.
Having seen how med schools start up, and seen the faculty recruitment and hiring process in action, when I compare CNU faculty to any at the new MD schools in the US...the contrast is so stark, it's chilling. Hence my reaction. And I'm knock knocking foreign training, since I have two wonderful FMG colleagues of my own. But I've never, ever seen a proportion like what CNU has to any new med school has had, MD or DO.
But since you're so vested in the school, just go and don't look back. And good luck.
You can add that unless one is 100% committed to having the MD initials after the name, that following 2), apply to DO schools should be added.
Yes--sorry, I thought that went without saying. I'd go to any DO school over Northstate.
I get that some applicants are really excited about this school. But I advise those of you to consider the advice here from multiple people with more experience than you (including some who are very well respected, namely GynGyn and Goro): Be cautious, and think carefully about the pros/cons.
The decision to go could very well work in your favor--we don't have a crystal ball. Just our experience and recommendations with all the baggage that we're carrying ourselves (often from mistakes we made because we didn't listen to our "elders," but then that is how you lean. I know I wished I listened much more when it came to trying to minimize debt for example. And I probably should've listened to my mom and best friend to break up with my high school girlfriend when I got to college, but hey at least after we broke up she invited me to a party where I met my wife 🙂
In fairness I don't see how it's possible for any premed to have a firm grasp on the various risk/benefit scenarios, particularly as it pertains to residency application (which I'm sure we can all agree is the only thing that matters). It's so obfuscated in layers of hierarchy, SDN bromides, and plain-ole bullsht that I sympathize with anyone who's having trouble seeing clearly through the issues. I'd love to be like "nya nya nya you ******* premeds" (seriously, I love doing that) but in this case it's just a completely stacked deck.
Sorry. But it's probably for the best?
I can see you're a respectful dood without the Dr title ;-). But like I said, whatever makes you feel comfortable.
Bumped down a few notches can mean, for an individual applicant, the difference between matching and not. Just because I think the herd will be fine doesn't mean I myself would take the risk of being left behind, which in this case I perceive, subjectively, to be substantial.
You nailed it re: NorCal, I must say that was an incredibly shrewd move on NCU's part in basing themselves out there.
[/QUOTE]
You and I must be reading different threads. Also, the god damn chair of the department being a non-board certified individual in that specialty is such a huge red flag I am floored by the reality. I know you and premeds/MS1s might not realize this, but that's seriously a huge deal and in my mind a mega dealbreaker.
Again, the Ph.D. candidate is an assistant, not the instructor. Funny how you say you've never seen that around, whereas my mentors, who are current instructors at UCSF and Stanford, say it's common practice.
I've also seen them at schools like UC Davis and Irvine where I have friends who are current medical students.
I've also haven't seen anything of her being the major chair of an academic department. Her title is an Assistant Professor, and she told us she looks over interprofessional training, ie hipaa regulations and the like.
Honestly, of course the faculty isn't top-notch, but I don't see it as that bad. They all seem qualified and excited to teach. I mean, talking with friends at Touro, I've heard some pretty terrible things about their facilities and instructors.
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She is the only Ob-Gyn on the faculty.
I see that her title has changed to Associate Professor of Ob-Gyn. Still, if the the only Ob-Gyn has no hospital privileges and is not board certified, there is a significant deficiency in what one would reasonably expect.
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In fairness, could it be they're waiting for their first class to get close to wards before getting the clinical faculty on board?
I have no idea what they plan on doing.
I do know that students need clinical faculty who can teach in every required area well before 3rd year.
We get it, we get it. You're 100% vested in CNU and you're gladly happy to ignore the warning signs. We accept that.
Just try to go into this eyes open, OK?
Just try to go into this eyes open, OK?
Nice comeback. I never said I was going in eyes closed, I'm just not blindly criticizing things without any backing.
Guess we know how this argument is going as your counter is basically an ad hominem.
lol.
He called out a PHD candidate, I corrected him. His response was basically "lol whatever"
I at least give myself credit for being able to discern the difference between TAs and Faculty.
But I challenge you to find pre-doctoral fellows on the Faculty at these northern CA schools:
http://anatomy.ucsf.edu/faculty/
http://anatomy.stanford.edu/people.html
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/cellbio/faculty/
http://com.tu.edu/departments/basicscience/index.html
I see they actually removed the TA. Imagine that! Good move. I withdraw my complaint on that score.
http://medicine.cnsu.edu/faculty/faculty-contact-info/faculty-contact-info
But I challenge you to find pre-doctoral fellows on the Faculty at these northern CA schools:
http://anatomy.ucsf.edu/faculty/
http://anatomy.stanford.edu/people.html
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/cellbio/faculty/
http://com.tu.edu/departments/basicscience/index.html
I see they actually removed the TA. Imagine that! Good move. I withdraw my complaint on that score.
http://medicine.cnsu.edu/faculty/faculty-contact-info/faculty-contact-info
Man you're in for a serious buffet of humble pie.
Reading this thread just for the Goro.
But their career opportunities page for clerkship directors is just a poorly scanned pdf?
http://medicine.cnsu.edu/shareddocs/Jobs/2015-03-26ClerkshipDirectors8.pdf
The obgyn professor is responsible for standardized patient and interprofessional training. She did this at her previous post at FAU. Web doesn't say she teaches in clinical setting. Ppl are getting carried away speculating about duties of professors based on few lines of web biographies. Because she received her education abroad doesn't mean the professor can't teach communication skills (a skill in medicine which transcends national boundaries I'm sure).
Wish I could post without bumping this thread :/
Wish I could post without bumping this thread :/
Dr. RangerBob,
Ah, OK. When I read this:
I interpreted your words as: "with A there may be some issues, but it will still be good. That isn't the case with B" -- therefore (unsaid implication), B will not be good. That smacked of a premature judgment to me.
Clearly, based on your subsequent posts, you have a much more nuanced and refined perspective, and my original interpretation was incorrect. I apologize, Dr. RangerBob. Thank you for your insight and candor -- I appreciate you taking the time to articulate your concerns. Taking it all to heart!
Respectfully,
Moose
Ah, OK. When I read this:
I interpreted your words as: "with A there may be some issues, but it will still be good. That isn't the case with B" -- therefore (unsaid implication), B will not be good. That smacked of a premature judgment to me.
Clearly, based on your subsequent posts, you have a much more nuanced and refined perspective, and my original interpretation was incorrect. I apologize, Dr. RangerBob. Thank you for your insight and candor -- I appreciate you taking the time to articulate your concerns. Taking it all to heart!
Respectfully,
Moose
I can read the pdf fine. Maybe it's your computer?
There's still the question as to why she's not ****ing board certified.
FWIW, they are still hiring. You can find a bunch of positions being posted on Craigslist at the moment.
Maybe she really just isn't interested in doing any clinically related work? She could've decided to not renew her certification all together, because all she wants to do is teach in a classroom, do research, and focus on administrative duties. If PhDs don't require any certification to teach in a medical school, why does she have to? (Unless, you actually do? In which case, disregard this all comment all together
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Yes, the faculty here is INCREDIBLY underwhelming on paper. However, until I hear from students that the education this school is terrible and will hinder them from being good doctors/getting good board exams, I cannot agree with the statement that these are second-rate under-qualified faculty members. At the very least, the professors for the basic sciences do not look all that dubious to me. Not getting a PhD in the USA or in popular european university doesn't necessarily make one a terrible professor or scientist. Not being a board certified doctor doesn't necessarily make you a second-rate instructor either, especially if the person doesn't need the certification to do her job. Are they not as established as faculties of other schools, yes absolutely! But to say they can't do their jobs well has yet to be seen. The professors they currently have for the more clinical heavy classes do seem dubious, but I don't want to count them out just yet.
Now, I know nothing about the rest of their curriculum and I know nothing about the ins and outs of residency placement, so the first few classes of this school may very well be majorly f*****. But I am cautiously optimistic that in a few years time, they would be on par with some of the lower tier MD schools.
Wait this is misleading. Click Nena Mason, PhD and it takes you to her page where it still says "PhD candidate"
FMGs can teach basic science or "professional courses" without license. Some that can't/don't want to pass steps and apply for residency go into medical education and instead teach at undergrad medical level. This is not uncommon as people are suggesting or getting outraged here about. Plenty of MBBSs, other foreign MDs are educators without ever getting their license.
I can read it, but it was clearly printed out and then scanned to a PDF. It's just sloppy.
I noticed that Dean Joseph Silva does not even have "a few lines of web biography." Yet he is a highly respected physician and noted leader in academic medicine. Some posters have dissed individual faculty members at CNSU for their credentials but there's no denying the Dean at the top leading CNSU in its formative years has credentials in spades, and I'm guessing Dean Silva's are far better than those of the critics. It's the guy at the top whose credentials pre-meds should keep in mind.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramen...h-silva-physician-steps-up-as-dean-again.html
I don't have a dog in this fight. And while it's helpful for pre-meds to read and consider potential pitfalls of attending a new, provisionally accredited allopathic medical school, some of criticisms are silly and I can't help but wonder if some ego's and noses are pushed out of joint and possibly threatened. CNSU is new allopathic player on the block that got provisional accreditation quickly, which is no small feat. If and when CNSU gets full accreditation, it will pose a definite threat to DO schools in California and nearby states in terms of attracting top quality candidates.
The more I think about it, I doubt it. There are so many MD-caliber applicants in CA who would rather stay in CA that it will be the OOS MD schools (like, say, the SUNYs, Rush, U AZ) that will lose them.
I don't have a dog in this fight. And while it's helpful for pre-meds to read and consider potential pitfalls of attending a new, provisionally accredited allopathic medical school, some of criticisms are silly and I can't help but wonder if some ego's and noses are pushed out of joint and possibly threatened. CNSU is new allopathic player on the block that got provisional accreditation quickly, which is no small feat. If and when CNSU gets full accreditation, it will pose a definite threat to DO schools in California and nearby states in terms of attracting top quality candidates.[/QUOTE]
I don't have a dog in this fight. And while it's helpful for pre-meds to read and consider potential pitfalls of attending a new, provisionally accredited allopathic medical school, some of criticisms are silly and I can't help but wonder if some ego's and noses are pushed out of joint and possibly threatened. CNSU is new allopathic player on the block that got provisional accreditation quickly, which is no small feat. If and when CNSU gets full accreditation, it will pose a definite threat to DO schools in California and nearby states in terms of attracting top quality candidates.[/QUOTE]
Those pages are WAY crooked! They could've at least lined the documents up with the edge of the scanner geez!
I can confirm that this practice is not isolated to for-profit preliminarily accredited schools, Duke set out rejection letters that were made into PDFs the same way.
There are literally hundreds of free applications out there to export docs as pdfs. This is clearly one of my pet peeves.
That can't be more wrong
can someone post both lists?
how can one judge a match list if they haven't started med school yet!?! because I don't know anything about anything regarding residency placements.
What makes "holistic review" so good? It's a sub rosa method to add AA into the student composition without raising red flags.
You do realize that for umpteen years US med schools used board stats to recruit candidates and American physicians were/are considered tops bar none.
Good on CNSU for recruiting academically accomplished med school candidates! Patients will benefit.
Touro sends half their class to AOA osteopathic residencies and only about half to actual acgme residencies. I don't understand how touro could ever be considered to have a better match list than davis if half their students can't even make it to an acgme residency.
and please post these match lists you are talking about.
Hmm, so then why dont we just let only 40/4.0 applicants get in with no clinical experience or anything of the sort?
Anyone below a 32 MCAT/3.7 GPA wouldnt stand a stance at even the lowest tier US allopathic schools. Now DO schools would have a giant influx of upper 20 and 30-31 applicants that couldnt get into MD schools. At this point, if DO schools stopped doing a "hollistic review" , anyone below a 28 MCAT and 3.6 gpa would probably never get admitted to even lowest tier DO schools let alone CCOM or some of the other top tier DO schools.
Their personal statements would amount to the following:
"I scored a 40 on my MCAT and have a 4.0 GPA. What else do I need to say?"
Secondary Essays would now be worthless and there would be no point in Interviews besides being glorified medical school tours.
This is what happens when you completely remove "Holistic Review" from the equation.
No.
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I'm sorry I dont want a 40/4.0 doctor as my orthopedic surgeon if hes an asshat who doesnt understand anything about people.
competence is required but not sufficient in medicine. There is a lot more to making a good doctor.
At one of the more recent AOA meetings, I know their dean was crowing about these stats, but I can't find the most recent stuff on their website..here's data for 2008-12. ACGME matches are indeed>> 50%. That's better than my school, and in our area, the AOA sites are fewer too! I'm still poking around for UCD's list.
But remember, it's like reading chicken guts to interpret match lists.....you need a resident in the field to tell you what's a good program or not, just like a PhD in, say, Anatomy can tell you that school X has a great Anatomy program. I couldn't begin to tell yo what's a good Neuroscience PhD program, but my Neuroscience colleagues sure can!
http://medicalschoolhq.net/touro-university-college-of-osteopathic-medicine-california-tucom-ca/
4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen. While we want people who will be good medical students, in the end, we want them to be good doctors. These traits are not identical.
It's intellectual ability primarily that is the most important quality for med school students.
Holistic interview is not for the betterment of medicine or for patients. It's for social engineering.
But remember, it's like reading chicken guts to interpret match lists.....you need a resident in the field to tell you what's a good program or not, just like a PhD in, say, Anatomy can tell you that school X has a great Anatomy program. I couldn't begin to tell yo what's a good Neuroscience PhD program, but my Neuroscience colleagues sure can!
http://medicalschoolhq.net/touro-university-college-of-osteopathic-medicine-california-tucom-ca/
4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen. While we want people who will be good medical students, in the end, we want them to be good doctors. These traits are not identical.
It's intellectual ability primarily that is the most important quality for med school students.
Holistic interview is not for the betterment of medicine or for patients. It's for social engineering.
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What about passion for medicine? Desire to help others?
Anyways theres lots of high achieving applicants for CNUCOM to choose from and it seems like the only color they care about is green. I think their class profile will be the same as other new MD schools.
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Hallmark card phrases. I guarantee you the highly skilled docs I shadowed would scoff at those hackneyed phrases.
And fyi taxpayer supported state med schools are no less concerned about $ than CSNU. Wake up. Pensions of tenured med school faculty US wide are not ones you'd associate with Mother Teresa selfless "passionate about medicine" individuals.
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