California to Merge Naturopathic Board with DO Board

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So there may be some things which are not research based yet that do in fact prove effective. Please tell me if I am uninformed.

I think that Allopathic, Osteopathic, Naturopathic, Oriental and Ayurvedic medicine have substance to offer each other. (And just so I don't get condemned for the above comment I will add, in case it is not obvious...in varying degrees and different ways.)

:thumbup::thumbup:

What bugs me about these arguments is the lack of understanding of how manipulated "evidence" based research is towards $$. Drug companies decide what research gets done and what gets published. If the "evidence" doesn't support their drug, it doesn't get published. Case = Vioxx & Celebrex. Since most "natural" remedies can't be patented, there's a vested interest in suppressing their usage.

The truth about the Drug Companies.

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I think what we're all upset about here (those against the DO/ND merger) is that the training is not equivalent. It makes sense to merge medical boards where training is equivalent, expectations are equivalent, etc. Thus, merging DO and MD boards makes sense. They both have four years of basically the same classes (with a few differences that we will not quibble about here - we're talking big picture people), years of residency, board exams throughout school and then specialty boards afterwards.

NDs, it is my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong here -, have school. Their boards are not at all similar to DO/MD boards. They do not have rigorous years-long residency positions that are accredited and recognized all over the country. They do not have specialty boards afterwards. They do not take the same classes as DOs/MDs. Makes NO sense to merge these two boards. Yes, it has been stated that NDs are in their infancy in terms of educational levels. But all DOs agree that the early DO schools and training was in no way as similar as it is today to an MD degree. That has changed, and we are still working on acceptance by many with prejudiced minds. But we've proved ourselves as educational, trained, functional equals. NDs have not. Once you attain that global educational, training, and functional equivalence then we can talk about merging the boards.

As for quacks, there are lots of quack MDs, DOs, chiropractors who want rights as primary care doctors, and of course the people who stick out a shingle and demand to be called "doctor" just because they think they can. Let us not discuss those people - we can find tons of them in all of the above categories. Let us focus instead on WHY these two boards should not be merged without resorting to name-calling, shall we???
 
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I think what we're all upset about here (those against the DO/ND merger) is that the training is not equivalent. It makes sense to merge medical boards where training is equivalent, expectations are equivalent, etc. Thus, merging DO and MD boards makes sense. They both have four years of basically the same classes (with a few differences that we will not quibble about here - we're talking big picture people), years of residency, board exams throughout school and then specialty boards afterwards.

NDs, it is my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong here -, have school. Their boards are not at all similar to DO/MD boards. They do not have rigorous years-long residency positions that are accredited and recognized all over the country. They do not have specialty boards afterwards. They do not take the same classes as DOs/MDs. Makes NO sense to merge these two boards. Yes, it has been stated that NDs are in their infancy in terms of educational levels. But all DOs agree that the early DO schools and training was in no way as similar as it is today to an MD degree. That has changed, and we are still working on acceptance by many with prejudiced minds. But we've proved ourselves as educational, trained, functional equals. NDs have not. Once you attain that global educational, training, and functional equivalence then we can talk about merging the boards.

As for quacks, there are lots of quack MDs, DOs, chiropractors who want rights as primary care doctors, and of course the people who stick out a shingle and demand to be called "doctor" just because they think they can. Let us not discuss those people - we can find tons of them in all of the above categories. Let us focus instead on WHY these two boards should not be merged without resorting to name-calling, shall we???

Great post!! :thumbup:
 
As for quacks, there are lots of quack MDs, DOs, chiropractors who want rights as primary care doctors, and of course the people who stick out a shingle and demand to be called "doctor" just because they think they can. Let us not discuss those people - we can find tons of them in all of the above categories. Let us focus instead on WHY these two boards should not be merged without resorting to name-calling, shall we???

Because it's like inviting a handful of NCAA division 3 football teams to play in BCS bowls. In reality, it's worse than that because at least D3 can lay a legitimate claim to playing some college football at some level. It would be like inviting a D3 lacrosse team to a BCS bowl.

I never understand why people lose sight of simple logic when they stop talking about sports and start talking about other fields of endeavor...
 
NDs, it is my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong here -, have school. Their boards are not at all similar to DO/MD boards. They do not have rigorous years-long residency positions that are accredited and recognized all over the country. They do not have specialty boards afterwards. They do not take the same classes as DOs/MDs. Makes NO sense to m . . . .

. . . mand to be called "doctor" just because they think they can. Let us not discuss those people - we can find tons of them in all of the above categories. Let us focus instead on WHY these two boards should not be merged without resorting to name-calling, shall we???

Great post.

My question about all this is "what is the problem?"

Will this effect any DO? Will this effect any pt? Isn't this board just some pro forma thing anyway? Merging them won't change the licensing rules in any way, right?

I mean, as far as public perception goes . . . that seems like a lost cause to me. The public has no idea what a DO is. Never will. They know what MDs are (or they think they know :laugh:). And in every circumstance I've encountered I just answer the question with "It means MD" and they say "OK" and that's the end of it.

That's just my personal experience of public perception. Not some statement about what a DO is.

I don't see the relationship between public perception and this CA board. Does the public even know this board exists?

bth
 
Great post Shyrem.

Here is the ND curriculum- different but not thoroughly lacking.

www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=51

However the issues which have been discussed in this thread - I do not think are off topic - other than Fatkids attempts that is.

1.I think that DO's perception of themselves and how the public and professional community is going to perceive DO after this merger is part of what drives the upheavel surrounding the merger. ( Especially with CA history of complete disrespect toward DO's).

2.As well, I think another issue that this merger brings up is, both the need for evidence based practice in tandem with the limits of evidence based research( little funding for some possibly important studies). Evidence based + rigor of training surround the legitamacy of ND's.

I can see and respect the issues that this merger brings up- but considering that the ND's will be in the minority on the board- I do not think that it will prove catastrophic. Actually in the long run it might be beneficial - and if it is not, cant it be changed? Say, when the state has money again?

I am coming from my experience of having everyone whom I have talked to about osteopathic medicine within the health fields( some not knowing I was starting DO school) saying in many different ways that the DO's time has come. And that within healthcare the bias is essentially breathing its last few breaths.

I am pretty sure this is not all that I wanted to say but it is all I have time for-
I am sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post from a while back - but I felt that I had to write it in order to prevent the possibility becoming exactly as negative towards ND's as what DO's have had to endure.
 
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Great post.

My question about all this is "what is the problem?"

Will this effect any DO? Will this effect any pt? Isn't this board just some pro forma thing anyway? Merging them won't change the licensing rules in any way, right?

I mean, as far as public perception goes . . . that seems like a lost cause to me. The public has no idea what a DO is. Never will. They know what MDs are (or they think they know :laugh:). And in every circumstance I've encountered I just answer the question with "It means MD" and they say "OK" and that's the end of it.

That's just my personal experience of public perception. Not some statement about what a DO is.

I don't see the relationship between public perception and this CA board. Does the public even know this board exists?

bth

just because the public don't know about it doesn't mean it's not an important issue. Your indifference toward your own profession is chilling.

likewise, the public probably doesn't know much about touro, AOA, AMA and the whole LGBT business, in your logic, why should anyone even care?
 
Hello to everyone fervently posting about this topic.

I'm a recent ND/LAc graduate with something to add. Namely, about the education piece.

Before I attended naturopathic school, I was a researcher at a major hospital and a graduate from a top university in Biology. When determining where I would go to medical school, the options were DO, MD, or ND. I was hesitant to pursue the ND path since I had a bias (as many of you here seem to) that they were not legitimate physicians and the training they received was not of high caliber.

After meeting an ND student who encouraged me to sit in on a lecture, I realized that I was wrong about my assumptions. For those that want to work in primary care and preventative medicine, naturopathy has much to offer. While I'm not sure if the classes in biochemistry, histology, etc. are Exactly the same as in MD or DO school, the naturopathic students DO have those classes.

In school, the hours spent weekly in class averaged about 35. Clinical hours averaged about 16 - 20. Then you figure in studying, weekend seminars, work-study, and just plain living and I think the schedule is much similar to ANY medical student, regardless of profession.

There are waaay fewer NDs than DOs or MDs, hence there are that many fewer folks to educate the rest of the world about what exatly we do. On top of that, there are NDs from unaccredited institutions in unlicenced states calling themselves "physicians". This alone leads to endless confusion about what a naturopathic physician or doctor is.

Do I believe that NDs should work in the ER or perform surgery? No. That's not in our scope of practice.

Do I think that we have a dearth of primary care physicians and NDs can help to fill that hole? Yes.

Will combining the boards cause people to regard DOs as less legitimate? Will it compromise patient care? I really don't think so.

Do I think it would have been better for the MD and DO boards to merge? Absolutely yes.

So, what do we do now?

I think that the best course of action is for our professions to learn about each other and stop stigmatizing. Only collaborative efforts will serve us in resoving this country's health care crisis, budget, and overall dysfunction in the medical industry.

I encourage those who have never spoken to an ND to find one and talk to them. You may be surprized to find how alike we are...
 
Unfortunately, I think you're in a very small minority. All of the self-proclaimed ND physicians I've become familiarized with (indirectly, I admit, but I hear it from the patients) are dangerous, IMHO, because they often bastardize western medicine and compel their patients to distrust it when it's benefits are very well documented. The result is the patients are in danger. I don't know whether those people were accredited or not (probably not based on what you're saying), but they are much more numerous in number and much louder in voice, so whether you want them to or not they speak for your community.

As for you personally, i wish you the best. You sound very well rounded. I hope you'll work well with patients and their physicians to produce the most favorable outcomes.
 
:thumbup::thumbup:

What bugs me about these arguments is the lack of understanding of how manipulated "evidence" based research is towards $$. Drug companies decide what research gets done and what gets published. If the "evidence" doesn't support their drug, it doesn't get published. Case = Vioxx & Celebrex. Since most "natural" remedies can't be patented, there's a vested interest in suppressing their usage.

I realize this post is off topic, but it never ceases to amaze me how willing many are to vilify the pharmaceutical companies for their supposed manipulation of EBM, prices and medicine in general.

Pharmaceutical companies exist to fulfil a role, and that role is driven by a bottom line. If the “evidence” doesn’t support the drug, the drug is scrapped, along with tens of millions of dollars & years of research.

Using the highly publicized example of Vioxx doesn’t equate to general fraud within the entire industry. By that analogy, the entire Federal government is fraudulent any time there is a big government scandal…perjury, kickbacks, blackmail. The entire fast-food industry is fraudulent any time Burger King lies about the source of its meat, caloric content, trans fat, etc…

Such examples do not generalize the entire industry or implicate every company.

Sure, people at Pfizer, Lilly, et al, get paid …their CEOs make tons of money…their pay structure compensates very well. But to specifically target a handful of multi-millionaires within a company (as Obama did in one his speeches recently, trying to “reign in” CEO salaries) completely ignores the reality that it wouldn’t make ONE IOTA of difference in terms of drug costs if those CEOs were paid $10 million a year or $0.10 a year.

You have absolutely no idea how complicated the pay structure is, what their cost / income projections are, how many thousands of employees they have, how many billions of dollars over years and years they spend researching drugs, and how vitally important the US is to global drug development.

If you analyze the drug-development history, you’ll find the VAST majority were researched & came to fruition within the private sector…not Germany, not though NIH grants, not through some egalitarian-driven desire to “do good” for the sake of doing good. Remove the incentive & free-market drive that exists within the drug industry, and you’ll remove the biggest player in the “turning science into medicine” arena.
 
From the OPSC:

Naturopaths Merged Into Osteopathic Licensing Board

Under the cloak of darkness, Governor Schwarzenegger has merged the Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine into the Osteopathic Medical Board of California (OMBC). OPSC is vigorously pursuing alternatives to overturn this legislation, including the possibility of litigation against the State of California.

The legislation that merges naturopaths into the OMBC was included in the "emergency" budget bills on the very night that they were signed by the legislature, allowing no opportunity for opposition. Governor Schwarzenegger signed the legislation shortly afterwards.

Under the legislation, two naturopaths will be seated as full members of the OMBC, and a nine person naturopathic committee will be created under the jurisdiction of the OMBC. OPSC is vehemently opposed to this action, as naturopaths are not fully licensed physicians; this merger will only serve to confuse the public and possibly endanger patients. The merger is scheduled for implementation by October 23, 2009.

A full copy of the legislation may be found at http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0001-0050/abx4_20_bill_20090728_chaptered.html.

OPSC is actively researching options to halt the merger, and will be asking member physicians for support. Further information will be sent as soon as it is available.
 
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I realize this post is off topic, but it never ceases to amaze me how willing many are to vilify the pharmaceutical companies for their supposed manipulation of EBM, prices and medicine in general.

Pharmaceutical companies exist to fulfil a role, and that role is driven by a bottom line. If the “evidence” doesn’t support the drug, the drug is scrapped, along with tens of millions of dollars & years of research.

Unless the negative studies get scrapped first, which apparently happens quite a bit, at least with antidepressant drugs:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/3/252

Or, perhaps a disorder will be invented to fit the drug with no other apparent usefulness. Or, perhaps a panel of "unbiased experts" recommend certain drugs, forming policy standards by which everyone must practice (Abramson's book goes into this quite a bit, as you probably don't know).

I'm no conspiracy theorist or anything, but if you think this stuff doesn't happen you need to wise up. We're talking billions of dollars here. You don't think those running a company poised to profit billions of dollars won't bend the truth once in awhile (or completely suppress it, if need be) to protect their bottom line?

Pharma does contribute to the quality of our lives and to the quality of those around the world, and they are necessary, and they should make a profit. That's what makes this such a contentious issue and creates a delicate balance. But we're talking a bigger issue here. You need to read more on this, and I'm not talking about some obscure anti-medical blogs or anything. There are real books written by credentialed people on this topic. Will these books change the way you practice everyday? Probably not much. But they will allow you to be better educated and less gullible in this regard.
 
While I'm not sure if the classes in biochemistry, histology, etc. are Exactly the same as in MD or DO school, the naturopathic students DO have those classes.

In school, the hours spent weekly in class averaged about 35. Clinical hours averaged about 16 - 20. Then you figure in studying, weekend seminars, work-study, and just plain living and I think the schedule is much similar to ANY medical student, regardless of profession.

To be honest, to compare NDs to MD/DO students based on the number of lecture hours, or whether or not they have to take certain classes, is not very useful. The number of hours that you spend in class varies widely from med school to med school, so that doesn't tell us much. And just saying that you are required to take a biochem or histo class doesn't say much either - I took undergrad biochem, but was discouraged to find that I would be covering an entire semester's worth of undergrad bio in THREE lectures during med school.

Clinical hours averaged about 16 - 20.

This is the part that concerns me. Was that during the clinical part of your education?

Because I think that any med student will tell you that the bulk of your clinical learning comes from the 3rd and 4th year. And if a med student had a rotation that averaged 16-20 hours a week, we'd be in heaven. Comparatively, I spent between 60-80 hours a week in clinics as a 3rd year. I spent between 60-100 hours a week in clinics as a 4th year.

With that kind of limited clinical exposure, do I think that NDs ought to serve as primary care physicians? Not really - considering that the average PCP has to manage an enormous variety of conditions, sometimes in very complicated patients. I'm just not convinced that 16-20 hours a week of clinics is enough to teach people to manage everything from HTN to depression to diabetes to domestic abuse to routine GYN care to STDs to high cholesterol.

No one is saying that NDs shouldn't exist or don't have anything useful to offer. But I don't think that they have a role serving their communities as primary care providers - maybe as an adjunct to PCPs, but not as a main provider.
 
Because I think that any med student will tell you that the bulk of your clinical learning comes from the 3rd and 4th year. And if a med student had a rotation that averaged 16-20 hours a week, we'd be in heaven. Comparatively, I spent between 60-80 hours a week in clinics as a 3rd year. I spent between 60-100 hours a week in clinics as a 4th year.
How much homework did you have at that time? :eek:
 
Hello to everyone fervently posting about this topic.

I'm a recent ND/LAc graduate with something to add. Namely, about the education piece.

Before I attended naturopathic school, I was a researcher at a major hospital and a graduate from a top university in Biology. When determining where I would go to medical school, the options were DO, MD, or ND. I was hesitant to pursue the ND path since I had a bias (as many of you here seem to) that they were not legitimate physicians and the training they received was not of high caliber.

After meeting an ND student who encouraged me to sit in on a lecture, I realized that I was wrong about my assumptions. For those that want to work in primary care and preventative medicine, naturopathy has much to offer. While I'm not sure if the classes in biochemistry, histology, etc. are Exactly the same as in MD or DO school, the naturopathic students DO have those classes.

In school, the hours spent weekly in class averaged about 35. Clinical hours averaged about 16 - 20. Then you figure in studying, weekend seminars, work-study, and just plain living and I think the schedule is much similar to ANY medical student, regardless of profession.

There are waaay fewer NDs than DOs or MDs, hence there are that many fewer folks to educate the rest of the world about what exatly we do. On top of that, there are NDs from unaccredited institutions in unlicenced states calling themselves "physicians". This alone leads to endless confusion about what a naturopathic physician or doctor is.

Do I believe that NDs should work in the ER or perform surgery? No. That's not in our scope of practice.

Do I think that we have a dearth of primary care physicians and NDs can help to fill that hole? Yes.

Will combining the boards cause people to regard DOs as less legitimate? Will it compromise patient care? I really don't think so.

Do I think it would have been better for the MD and DO boards to merge? Absolutely yes.

So, what do we do now?

I think that the best course of action is for our professions to learn about each other and stop stigmatizing. Only collaborative efforts will serve us in resoving this country's health care crisis, budget, and overall dysfunction in the medical industry.

I encourage those who have never spoken to an ND to find one and talk to them. You may be surprized to find how alike we are...

DocGreen, for as diplomatic as you are being, don't look for any love around here because unfortunately you won't find it. Mainstream medicine is not prepared to give you any credibility, and medical students are probably even worse. There will be no collaborative efforts forthcoming, because only mainstream medicine can help anyone, or so you would believe around here. Just focus on your training and your patients, and become the best ND you can. Don't get distracted.
 
How much homework did you have at that time? :eek:

This is off-topic, but it depends on the rotation. You should be steadily reading through each rotation as a third year med student, because there will probably be an exam at the end of the rotation. 4th year is less "pressure" because there are no exams, but you'll still have to read up on your patients, prepare for Step 2, get ready for residency interviews, etc.
 
DocGreen, for as diplomatic as you are being, don't look for any love around here because unfortunately you won't find it. Mainstream medicine is not prepared to give you any credibility, and medical students are probably even worse. There will be no collaborative efforts forthcoming, because only mainstream medicine can help anyone, or so you would believe around here. Just focus on your training and your patients, and become the best ND you can. Don't get distracted.
I don't think that's fair to say. Most of us aren't closed minded, just skeptical. There isn't significant research backing naturopathic claims, and many patients of naturopaths are scared out of seeking western medicine which can be dangerous. I'm confident they have some effective treatment methods, but that's not the issue.
 
Unless the negative studies get scrapped first, which apparently happens quite a bit, at least with antidepressant drugs:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/3/252

Or, perhaps a disorder will be invented to fit the drug with no other apparent usefulness. Or, perhaps a panel of "unbiased experts" recommend certain drugs, forming policy standards by which everyone must practice (Abramson's book goes into this quite a bit, as you probably don't know).

I'm no conspiracy theorist or anything, but if you think this stuff doesn't happen you need to wise up. We're talking billions of dollars here. You don't think those running a company poised to profit billions of dollars won't bend the truth once in awhile (or completely suppress it, if need be) to protect their bottom line?

Pharma does contribute to the quality of our lives and to the quality of those around the world, and they are necessary, and they should make a profit. That's what makes this such a contentious issue and creates a delicate balance. But we're talking a bigger issue here. You need to read more on this, and I'm not talking about some obscure anti-medical blogs or anything. There are real books written by credentialed people on this topic. Will these books change the way you practice everyday? Probably not much. But they will allow you to be better educated and less gullible in this regard.

I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen, but the extent to which it does is grossly exaggerated because pharm companies are easy targets: they're capitalistic entities, and following the mantra of the times, capitalism is bad.

Why am I the one who needs to read more about this? You assume because of my position I haven't investigated any time or research into the matter, or that I have no personal experience in the area, while I'm merely suggesting we put the reigns on the often exacerbated & wild assumptions that drug companies will steal from the cookie jar at every opportunity.

Does the automotive industry equally deserve blanket criticism for the companies that falsify safety data?

Does the food industry deserve blanket criticism for fudging or skewing data on nutrition information?

No one denies the realities that drug research is vulnerable to fraud and malign intentions, and that such realities manifest occasionally to regularly, but let's keep such situations in the greater of context of their relation to the number of NON-fraudulent ventures, and stray from the assumption that the entire industry is fraught with diffusely infiltrative unethical, immoral and illegal practices.

The perception people generally have towards ALL pharm companies is no different than the perception people have towards Wall Street fat cats, or any large thriving capitalist entity: there's a bunch of big fat old rich white guys sitting around a board room thinking of ways to deceive the public for $$.
 
Hello everyone. I wanted to spend a moment and clear up a few things for those who are willing to listen. Opinions welcomed! Despite the concerns of the OPSC, I really hope they can work with the NDs in California. As the "new kids on the block", I'm not surprised at the lack of factual information and fear floating around and hope we can stick to the facts. I don't expect to change everyone's mind, especially those DOs who would rather just be considered an MD. But I think the more you know the facts, the more comfortable you will be with Naturopathic Doctors and what is happening here.

First, the Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine is not being consolidated into the OMBC. It is being eliminated. The functions of the Bureau are consolidated under an independent Naturopathic Committee under OMBC and the regulations remain separate. The idea was to have it operate just like the dental hygienists - who are registered and regulated by the Dental Board of California. In fact, the Dental Board has 1 dental hygienist on the Dental Board. This gives representation to them so the board understand what they do. I don't see this hurting the dental board, so there is no reason to be fearful that NDs will have any say in the practice of Osteopathic Medicine, just a voice at the board level. I also understand that DOs are fearful of being associated with NDs. I understand the concern but the regulation of both remains separate just like the dental board and dental hygienists - which hasn't created any public confusion or problems. Saying it is a merger is not true and it implies alot of things that just aren't going to happen.

Second, there was not a "cloak of darkness" surrounding the decision to put the Naturopathic Committee under the OMBC. Not only were there hearings in July that both the OMBC and the OPSC attended and testified at, but several attempts were made starting @May to contact the OPSC to let them know that the OPSC was one of several agencies being considered for a home for Naturopathic licenses. The OPSC chose to ignore the problem.

Third, if anything, the OMBC will be better funded now that they get revenues from ND licenses. NDs pay almost 2x as much for a medical license and almost certainly cost less to regulate. I don't know about DOs, but approximately 25% of MDs have an active lawsuit against them at any point in time, requiring the Medical Board to investigate and make determinations. I'd expect it to be lower for DOs but not substantially, because surgery and prescribing alot of pharmaceuticals correlates with lawsuits. In 5 years, there has not been a single investigation of NDs related to malpractice and the Bureau has built up a surplus equal to 1 year of operating. If anything, it would seem that the money coming in from NDs would provide for more staff so the OMBC can better do its job, protecting the public.

Fourth, make sure you know the difference between a Naturopathic Doctor and a traditional Naturopath. NDs go to medical school for 4 years with some doing 1 year residencies afterwards. Traditional Naturopaths from places like Trinity get a @6 month correspondence education in health and wellness. Its like the difference between an MD and a Medical Assistant - worlds apart. There are a number of traditional naturopaths who call themselves doctors because these diploma mills give out certificates that say "Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine". It's completely misleading to the public and, in places like California illegal. I regularly report those using the title or name ND to the Bureau who then pursues it.

Fifth, NDs do have comparable education to MDs and DOs in many ways but are by no means the same. Want the facts? See the Journal of Family practice on Naturopathic Medicine including info on core curriculum and education hours compared to MDs/DOs. ND education is very similar to both MDs and DOs but because the have no training or desire to become surgeons, they are a different kind of physician. They focus more on scientifically proven preventive medicine as a way to deal with health problems, especially the huge number of diseases that are lifestyle related. NDs emphasize physiology and prescribe substances that impact physiology in much the same way as pharamaceuticals along the same biochemical pathways. Because the substances are not concentrated pharmaceuticals, they are perfect for conditions that are less advanced, requiring less intervention and without the same side effects of pharmaceuticals.

NDs would be happy to do regular residencies but because they are new, their residencies are not federally funded and they are not (yet) recongnized by medicare. Most MDs and DOs are happy to consider them unqualified because they don't have the training to operate or the depth of pharmaceutical usage learned in residencies, but there is more to medicine than surgery and drugs, something that I thought most DOs understood. Most NDs work in a primary care setting where less agressive pharamceutical invention is required. On the other hand, Dr. Decker Weiss is an ND who is a board certified cardiologist in Arizona - so you can see that NDs are qualified to integrate within regular medicine - if they follow the residency track.

BTW, NDs can order controlled substances 3-5 but need a supervising MD or DO in order to do so. At least for now. The CA legislature wanted further study before giving NDs independent prescribing rights. The analysis is done and has been submitted to the legislature.

Sixth. NDs have many of the same responsibilities as MDs/DOs in practicing medicine. If the conventional diagnosis they arrive at (using standard labs) and treatment they are providing is ineffective, then they must refer to another healthcare provider, such as an MD/DO. Failure to do so is malpractice. If NDs were not living up to those responsibilities, you would see many, many lawsuits in California and in other states that license NDs. On the contrary, malpractice suits are quite rare, maybe 1-3 a year for the 5,000 NDs practicing across the US. Naturopathic Medicine is not homeopathy and not hippie medicine. If you still think it is, you should do your homework. This is not your grandmother's natural medicine. Similarly, any ND who would advise someone to stop radiation and chemotherapy would be setting themselves up for both malpractice and loss of their license. Most of the aggresive criticism I've seen on this thread are likely from DOs who ran into a counterculture traditional naturopath, not a Naturopathic Doctor.

Seven. There's been quite a few comments about whether the stuff NDs prescribe is really medicine because it is often not prescription medication. Wouldn't pharmaceutical companies just do the research and make a drug out of it? Um, no. Pharmaceutical companies primarily work on patentable drugs. If it cannot be patented, pharmacutical companies rarely do the research.

This is changing though, especially with the large amounts of research on nutritional medicine. Pharma companies are beginning to buy up many of the nutraceutical companies that have well-researched products that NDs use. With solid research and a lot less fear of side effect related lawsuits, they are learning there is plenty of profit to be made and, while patents expire, brand recognition doesn't. When you get into practice, don't be surprised if drug reps start adding nutraceuticals to their drug lines. It is coming.....

Hope this helps.
 
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So now we know there are no residencies. The clinical hours that are listed on the pdf file are FAR FAR less than even one year of rotations performed by a third year medical student (which if you go on the low side per week of 60 hours, give the poor third year two full weeks of vacation - if they're lucky that is - you get 3000 hours in ONE YEAR). A DO or MD has to do two years of such rotations and then residency on top of that before they can be a general practitioner.

Now there are also falsehoods in that pdf document listed above. MDs can NOT be "general practitioners" after two sets of boards. They are not fully licensed until THREE sets of boards are completed. They are not eligible for the third set of boards until after their intern year of residency. Residency does NOT train every MD or DO with the "skills required to perform surgery". Psych residents do not perform surgery. Other residencies may only have one or two months of surgery in the entire three or four years of residency. Hardly getting the "skills required to perform surgery". Assist, perhaps. Minor procedures, yes. Unrestricted "surgery"? No.

I'm not against NDs (at least the ones who actually do an accredited nationally recognized degree curriculum and pass standardized nationally recognized licensing exams). I do have a problem with the lack of standardization of the ND designation, curriculae, and the lack of clinical experiences in the standard ND school education curriculum and the lack of any residency whatsoever. DOs have worked long and hard to overcome those exact problems... why would we want to be joined with an organization which currently has those exact problems we have worked decades to overcome (and in some cases still working on overcoming prejudice and misinformation)?
 

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated instance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/19/national/19fraud.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123672510903888207.html (These 21 falsified studies certainly influenced pain practice nationwide, if not worldwide.)

http://newsblaze.com/story/20090522120816rose.nb/topstory.html

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2009/04/doctor_says_he.html

...and on and on.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm painting with a broad brush here, and I don't want to impugn all researchers. Please don't put words in my mouth. But money talks and causes some to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.
 
ShyRem, thanks for pointing out the mistakes in the document. I'll make sure they are properly corrected.

Standardization of the ND designation is coming and will happen as more states license NDs. As for the curriculae, I think it's healthy for NDs to keep an open dialogue with MDs and DOs so we can make improvements if and when needed. Most NDs are much more conventionally minded than I think most people would think.

As for residencies, that is a long discussion but I hear your concerns. As an evolving profession, I would expect clinical rotations and residency hours to increase as Naturopathic Medicine goes more mainstream.

And as for concerns about being "associated" with NDs, I really do understand the concerns that DOs have. However, the two entities will remain largely separate other than sharing adminstrative resources, and I don't suppose that 99%+ of the public will even know that the Naturopathic Committee is under the OMBC.

The only real goal NDs had was to save licensure of NDs in California when the Governor called for the Bureau to be eliminated - and there is no goal outside of that. Once the budgetary smoke clears here over the next few years and the profession grows by 2x-3x, I would expect the Bureau to be reinstated. The profession got bombed by the States budget problems and was just looking for shelter.
 
Most MDs and DOs are happy to consider them unqualified because they don't have the training to operate or the depth of pharmaceutical usage learned in residencies, but there is more to medicine than surgery and drugs, something that I thought most DOs understood.

How crazy, doctors feeling NDs are unqualified to practice side by side with them simply because they don't have sufficient training or complete residencies??? I hope no one get their feelings hurt.

BTW, NDs can order controlled substances 3-5 but need a supervising MD or DO in order to do so.

Isn't there more to medicine than drugs??? Plus, awesome ... you can order something, all you need is a doctor to do so??? Is this really any different from a patient saying, hey I'm in the hospital and in pain, can I have pain medication Dr MD/DO ... and the doctor saying, sure??? Sounds like the patient ordered it to me.


Sixth. NDs have many of the same responsibilities as MDs/DOs in practicing medicine.

Noooo they don't, otherwise they would have the same privileges - ie unrestricted licenses.



Listen, I'm not trying to be an ass here, but a lecture from someone named 'Naturopathic' about how great NDs/natural medicine is/are, is NOT going to change the fact that NDs are unqualified and unrealated to DOs and belong no where on the DO licensing board. Period. That's wonderful they serve a place in medicine, treat patients (I guess), etc ... but it does not change the fact that they are not fully licensed physicians, do not complete residencies, do not have full script rights, and therefore do not belong on a merged board with physicians overseeing physician licenses. You can argue with more stuff if you want, but nothing changes this FACT.
 
... but it does not change the fact that they are not fully licensed physicians, do not complete residencies, do not have full script rights, and therefore do not belong on a merged board with physicians overseeing physician licenses. You can argue with more stuff if you want, but nothing changes this FACT.

There is an inherent logical fallacy in your reasoning. It is the classic "Straw Man Fallacy", wherein you make several true statements ("they are not fully licensed physicians, do not complete residencies, do not have full script rights") and then attempt to tie them to an unrelated, false statement ("therefore do not belong on a merged board with physicians overseeing physician licenses").

This kind of statement shows that you don't understand how the medical boards work. Many medical boards are involved in regulating non-physician and non-MD/DO professions. It took me one google search to find this website: http://www.fsmb.org/directory_smb.html. For example, look at the Alaska Board of Medicine... they regulate all of the following: DO's, MD's, Paramedics, Physician Assistants, and Podiatrists. There are many other state medical boards with similar arrangements. You should take a minute a look this stuff up before you go on these uniformed rants. :rolleyes:

As for your feelings about ND's, you're entitled to those. But it seems to me that they are also based on a lack of understanding. It really doesn't sound like you know much about them. In fact, you appear to be guilty of the same criticism we often level at mid-level providers: you don't know what you don't know.

Partly, that's not your fault. Naturopathic medicine isn't exactly a hot topic on the evening news. On the other hand, neither is osteopathic medicine, despite what the AOA would have you believe. Does the fact that most people don't know what a DO is make what we do any less valuable?

I'm a 3rd year DO student and I know what our training entails. I also know many licensed ND's, and I have sat in on their classes, and there is a lot of overlap with what we study. Is it the same? No. They go in a different direction (and believe it or not, we could learn some things from them). But they do have a rigorous basis in the medical sciences. As someone noted, a comparison of hours spent in a given subject would be meaningless, because that wouldn't tell you about the content or the level of rigor. So to be clear, I'm talking about the latter. Do they have a lot less clinical training that we do? Yes. But it's not less than PA's or EMT's. So if those professions can be regulated under a medical board why can't ND's? Why do they have to be exactly like us to find a temporary regulatory home?

Since everything in California is on the chopping block, it only makes sense to start putting things together that other states do without any problem. Thus the match of ND's under the DO Board makes sense. Just like they do it in other states. Does it make DO's or MD's look bad in Alaska because they also regulate PA's and EMT's and DPM's? I don't think so. In fact, I don't think anyone knows or cares.

By California Statute, ND's have a legal scope of practice. They are looking for a regulatory home. In my opinion, it is the proper thing to do to extend an open invitation to them to be regulated under the DO board. On the one hand, if they are potential allies in our care of the patient, we should welcome them. On the other hand, if you think their scope should be limited or you think they're somehow dangerous, we should also welcome them. Either way, the situation works to our advantage.

Personally, if I were them, I would prefer a home under a different board. It's got to be hard enough trying to explain what a "naturopathic" doctor is without throwing the word "osteopathic" in the mix. :cool: But as I said, very few people will even know this is happening, and less will care.

As for scope of practice issues, those are another story, and one that we could, and should, debate fully to hear all sides of the story. There are many mid-level providers itching to get involved in primary care, and believe that they are qualified to do so. And there is such a shortage of primary care docs that there may simply be no choice but to bring these other providers into the fold in some way, shape, or form (as has already begun) - despite their different training. But that is not what this thread is about. It's about the courtesy of housing the ND's under our regulatory board for the time being. I don't see a problem with it.

Perhaps there is still the sting of the 1962 "California Merger", and so the OPSC feels protective of the board. And that would be understandable. But while we can't forget that moment in history, we do need to move past it. I would try to look at this less as a threat, and more as an opportunity.
 
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There is an inherent logical fallacy in your reasoning. It is the classic "Straw Man Fallacy",...... For example, look at the Alaska Board of Medicine... they regulate all of the following: DO's, MD's, Paramedics, Physician Assistants, and Podiatrists..... Thus the match of ND's under the DO Board makes sense.....

You talk about "straw man" arguments, then offer one up yourself. If all those others can be under a single medical board, then why can't NDs be under DOs?

The only "truth" in the matter is that all of the other professions you listed are legal in all 50 states in the US. There are states in the US where Naturopathic Medicine is illegal. Not just frowned upon, or misunderstood, or anything else. It is simply illegal. Do not pass Go and do not collect $200 illegal. That the state of California has given them all the rights they have is kind of understandable considering all the other laughable things that state has done.
 
You talk about "straw man" arguments, then offer one up yourself. If all those others can be under a single medical board, then why can't NDs be under DOs?

The only "truth" in the matter is that all of the other professions you listed are legal in all 50 states in the US. There are states in the US where Naturopathic Medicine is illegal. Not just frowned upon, or misunderstood, or anything else. It is simply illegal. Do not pass Go and do not collect $200 illegal. That the state of California has given them all the rights they have is kind of understandable considering all the other laughable things that state has done.

What's important is that they're legal in the states that regulate them. I would have thought that was too obvious to have to point out.

But since you're grandstanding with these comments a little, tell me: Name one state that has a law on the books which states "naturopathic medicine is illegal."

Maybe what you are trying to say is that there are a lot of states that don't license ND's. And in those states, it is illegal to practice medicine without a license. Ergo, ND's cannot "practice medicine".

If you think that somehow means that ND's are not seeing patients in these states, then you are out of the loop, or are ill-informed about what "licensing" means. They simply operate under a different scope of practice - a limited one that is not defined by the law. This allows unlicense-able ND's (who are really more like natural health educators) to also practice in these same states, although their training is usually of the mail-order variety. This lack of differentiation (through licensing) leads to confusion and may endanger the public. Licensing is the obvious answer. And if you're going to license, you've got to put it under a regulatory board. You can give them their own board if you want. Personally, I think it's better to put it under the medical board. Who is in a better position to regulate them? Are you starting to get my drift yet?

Now if you want to debate scope of practice, that is another issue. And perhaps that's what you're most upset about. I'm not going to address that issue here. It's too big and it's off point.

Lastly, if you string together several different points I made separately and put "..." in between them, that doesn't mean I'm making a "straw man argument". It means you are selectively quoting and stringing unrelated points together. I hope you know that. :rolleyes: Using the same method, I can construct the following statement from your post:
... "truth" ... states ... Naturopathic Medicine is ... misunderstood. That the state of California has given them all the rights they have is ... understandable...

Did you say that? No. Did I make the straw man argument you accused me of? No. :cool:
 
Disclaimer: The Student Doctor Network is a nonprofit organization which purposely remains apolitical. The following post is my own personal view and does not represent the view of SDN or affiliated organizations.

Word just came that in order to "save money" the California Senate voted to merge the Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine into the Osteopathic Medical Board of California.

This is a really bad idea in my opinion. When I first learned of this proposal a few weeks ago, I contacted friends in Sacramento. Initially it appeared that it would not happen, but then through back-room dealings, it appears it was put up for a vote without proper notice.

In response, the OPSC has crafted a letter and is sending it to the Governor, President Pro Tem and Speaker.

Here are the contents of the letter:



Please let your colleagues know about this event and stand-by for a possible letter writing campaign if needed. I'll post to this thread if we need to start a campaign to prevent this action.


OMG.

Guys, i am going to start my own competing agency for MD/DO's and call it the "American Association of anyone who wants to be a doctor gets to be a doctor regardless of undergrad gpa/mcat".

I am going to make my licensing exams really easy too.

And you will get a certificate at the end of the exams.

All the courses are offered online and you can be a part-time student.

We dont even require a h.s. degree either, you just need to be able to read...kinda.

Afterall, any dumba** can function like a physician.

SARCASM INTENDED:mad::mad:
 
All the courses are offered online and you can be a part-time student.

It's uninformed over-dramatic comments like this which are off-putting. Accredited ND schools currently only allow full-time status for all students, and none are offered online (only the non-accredited naturopathic schools have anything online). Please don't speak of that which you do not know. I think all of us here would rather have a discussion with genuine information, rather than just flinging erroneous information all over the place and pretending them as factual.

At least if you want to criticize NDs, then get your facts straight first. As much as I am interested in drugless therapies, my concern was that ND schools may place too much emphasis on anecdotal evidence and placebo effect over research studies (this is what I was told directly from an ND professor at a school I considered attending at one time). I am hopefully open-minded enough to realize that not all schools may do this and perhaps some of them may be more focused on therapies that have evidence-based backing in research literature. However, it makes no sense of criticizing NDs for not being evidence-based enough in their approach, if we have DO or MD students (like yourself) who are quick to draw conclusions without doing any research of the information you present. It's okay to be incorrect, as long as you have genuinely made an effort to verify your conclusions first. But to ignore accurate information and jump into hysterics makes you no better than the group you attempt to villianify. So let's cut the theatrics and continue a discussion based on documented information. I think the majority of people thus far have done a good job at remaining composed and civil and open-minded, so let's not start the drama now. Thanks.

Sorry for the rant...
 
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The practice of naturopathy is illegal in two states: South Carolina and Tennessee. It remains simply unregulated in the remaining states which do not license NDs.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4822413/Naturopathy

Open document and scroll to page 34 for a summary of state-by-state practice rights.
 
To be honest, to compare NDs to MD/DO students based on the number of lecture hours, or whether or not they have to take certain classes, is not very useful. The number of hours that you spend in class varies widely from med school to med school, so that doesn't tell us much. And just saying that you are required to take a biochem or histo class doesn't say much either - I took undergrad biochem, but was discouraged to find that I would be covering an entire semester's worth of undergrad bio in THREE lectures during med school.



This is the part that concerns me. Was that during the clinical part of your education?

Because I think that any med student will tell you that the bulk of your clinical learning comes from the 3rd and 4th year. And if a med student had a rotation that averaged 16-20 hours a week, we'd be in heaven. Comparatively, I spent between 60-80 hours a week in clinics as a 3rd year. I spent between 60-100 hours a week in clinics as a 4th year.

With that kind of limited clinical exposure, do I think that NDs ought to serve as primary care physicians? Not really - considering that the average PCP has to manage an enormous variety of conditions, sometimes in very complicated patients. I'm just not convinced that 16-20 hours a week of clinics is enough to teach people to manage everything from HTN to depression to diabetes to domestic abuse to routine GYN care to STDs to high cholesterol.

No one is saying that NDs shouldn't exist or don't have anything useful to offer. But I don't think that they have a role serving their communities as primary care providers - maybe as an adjunct to PCPs, but not as a main provider.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE.....you can say all you want, that you took biochem, histology, anatomy, etc......every pre-health professions student does that. The difference is in the CLINICAL training and the AMOUNT of time and how/where you spent that time that makes the difference. ND's have in no way, shape or form the same depth or bredth of knowledge, training, or experience that MD/DO's do....that is a fact....otherwise they would have the exact same licensure. I doubt you spent your (16-20) hours rotating in every specialty of medicine to gain this knowledge. If you want to be a fully licensed physician than go to Medical School (MD or DO)....not NP, DPM,Chiro, Pharmacy, etc....this argument is rediculous, and is insulting to those of us whom sacrifice so very much to be where we are....:thumbdown:
 
It's uninformed over-dramatic comments like this which are off-putting. Accredited ND schools currently only allow full-time status for all students, and none are offered online (only the non-accredited naturopathic schools have anything online). Please don't speak of that which you do not know. I think all of us here would rather have a discussion with genuine information, rather than just flinging erroneous information all over the place and pretending them as factual.

At least if you want to criticize NDs, then get your facts straight first. As much as I am interested in drugless therapies, my concern was that ND schools may place too much emphasis on anecdotal evidence and placebo effect over research studies (this is what I was told directly from an ND professor at a school I considered attending at one time). I am hopefully open-minded enough to realize that not all schools may do this and perhaps some of them may be more focused on therapies that have evidence-based backing in research literature. However, it makes no sense of criticizing NDs for not being evidence-based enough in their approach, if we have DO or MD students (like yourself) who are quick to draw conclusions without doing any research of the information you present. It's okay to be incorrect, as long as you have genuinely made an effort to verify your conclusions first. But to ignore accurate information and jump into hysterics makes you no better than the group you attempt to villianify. So let's cut the theatrics and continue a discussion based on documented information. I think the majority of people thus far have done a good job at remaining composed and civil and open-minded, so let's not start the drama now. Thanks.

Sorry for the rant...


I dare you to get your next surgery performed by an ND! No, I double dare you!

Wait, I double DOG dare you!!!!!

:laugh::laugh:

Wait, you dont need surgery, the herbal tea will take care of your appendectomy in a holistic way. Just make sure to rub the daisy in your picture on your tummy twice a day, that is key.:laugh::smuggrin:
 
The practice of naturopathy is illegal in two states: South Carolina and Tennessee. It remains simply unregulated in the remaining states which do not license NDs.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4822413/Naturopathy

Open document and scroll to page 34 for a summary of state-by-state practice rights.

Thanks for pointing these out. Good document. So the record shows that "naturopathy" is illegal in 2 states and not illegal in the other 48. My point stands.

And even in the 2 states where "naturopathy" is "illegal", there are still ND's there seeing patients. They just do it under a different license (chiropractic, acupuncture, medical, osteopathic, etc), or they call it something else.

But it sounds to me like this conversation is going in a different direction. The question here is about California, where ND's are licensed and have a legal scope of practice. Is it better to have them regulated by a medical board or not?

I get it. There's a group of you that think they shouldn't be licensed to begin with. Point taken. You disagree with the state of California, and that's your prerogative. Personally, I favor licensure so you can define a scope of practice and regulate it.

But this is a done deal, and so it's probably a moot conversation. I guess some of you are mad about it, and all I'm trying to say is: you shouldn't be. Think about it a little deeper than your knee-jerk reaction, and you wouldn't be.
 
I dare you to get your next surgery performed by an ND! No, I double dare you!

Wait, I double DOG dare you!!!!!

:laugh::laugh:

Wait, you dont need surgery, the herbal tea will take care of your appendectomy in a holistic way. Just make sure to rub the daisy in your picture on your tummy twice a day, that is key.:laugh::smuggrin:

Of course NDs wouldn't perform major surgery, but neither would MD or DOs in specialties like FP, IM etc. The accredited ND schools teach their students to perform minor surgery just like FP programs, though. Your argument doesn't really hold, because you wouldn't tell your FP that he/she isn't a real doctor because he/she won't perform your open heart surgery. Similarly, the fact that NDs don't do major surgery says nothing about the quality or benefit of their practice either.

As far as flower therapy, I personally don't know any NDs who do that (though I'm sure many do)... but I personally happen to know a holistic MD who uses Bach Flower remedies. I haven't actually seen if there are any studies done on them, and can't understand how they would work.... and a quick search on Wiki also states that a review of clinical trials shows no effect either. However, anecdotally, many people swear by their benefits. Rather than making the assumption about what NDs prescribe, why not actually ask an ND from an accredited school who is licensed to practice in your state? That seems a much more intelligent way to go about things, rather than continuing to expel misinformation based on zero experience,... don't you think? I am surprised that you seem so close-minded and ready to dismiss things without even considering the possibilities - as that is completely counter to scientific method which asks us to keep an open mind, carefully look at the evidence objectively, etc. And in cases where research has found no effect, yet people anecdotally swear by a therapy - it is important to continue to explore what might be causing the differing results. I think it's also important to remain humble enough to realize that medicine is still limited in many ways, and we don't yet have sufficient methods of quantitatively looking at things like Chi or energy medicine yet as they might consider in old systems like Ayurveda or Chinese medicine. But based on concepts I have read in areas like quantum physics, I am sure these explorations will open up many new frontiers in medicine someday.... it's very cool and interesting stuff.

Anyway, back to NDs... I have seen a number of NDs as a client and was (for the most part) pretty satisfied with their care. From my experiences, things like teas or homeopathic remedies were never a first line treatment - it was always something else more potent given (like amino acids, mineral supplements etc), and the ND would say that a certain tea might be a nice addition to what I was already given which may possible help as well. But it's not like I ever walked out of an NDs office with only a box of teabags - certainly not.
 
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I have a problem with this. My problem isn't that the Naturopaths are being supervised by Physicians. My problem is that it's specifically DO's.

Why did we draw the short straw? This only serves to make DO's look more like "holistic" hippy doctors.

I would have no problem with all of the fields merged into one, but singling out the DO's only serves to further confuse the public about our role in health care.
 
I have a problem with this. My problem isn't that the Naturopaths are being supervised by Physicians. My problem is that it's specifically DO's.

Why did we draw the short straw? This only serves to make DO's look more like "holistic" hippy doctors.

I would have no problem with all of the fields merged into one, but singling out the DO's only serves to further confuse the public about our role in health care.

From what I understand, as far as California's reasoning behind this issue, is that originally the Governator had set out to eliminate the ND board completely. This would effectively prohibit licensure of NDs in the state. Through legislative process, somehow they ended up under the jurisdiction of OMBC.

This is good news for NDs, because their licensure is now protected since OMBC was created by a proposition, thus can only be eliminated by one as well. I'm guessing this is the same reasoning behind not just merging all licensure functions under the same roof, as we would need a proposition to get rid of OMBC and just have one united medical board of california.
 
Why did we draw the short straw?
We didn't "draw" the short straw. We are the sort straw! Politically speaking, we're a small group. We simply can't carry as much clout as a larger organization. Not to mention all the infighting! But my guess is that OMBC gladly accepted this role, despite what the OPSC is saying now.

I would have no problem with all of the fields merged into one, but singling out the DO's only serves to further confuse the public about our role in health care.
If people knew about Osteopathic Board, I'd agree with you. But ask 10,000 people, and I bet 9,999 wouldn't know. Before reading this thread I bet most DO students themselves were unfamiliar with the OMBC or the OPSC.
 
Anyone who is interested in digging into this subject a bit deeper might find what I'm about to discuss here a bit surprising. I was just reading through this chart on the DEA's website (http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugreg/practioners/index.html#1-5) and discovered that ND prescribing privileges are perhaps more widespread then most of us knew of. In Montana, Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, and Vermont, NDs are able to prescribe (and often administer) controlled substances to some extent...which implies that they probably have prescribing rights for non-prescription drugs also. New Mexico apparently lets Doctors of Oriental Medicine (DOMs) prescribe C-III testosterone patches (?).

To me, this information is even more shocking than the knowledge that the ND/DO boards are somehow being merged in California.
 
I would like to take this opportunity to clear up some misconceptions on who and what licensed Naturopathic Doctors are and what the education consists of. First, there is a HUGE difference between "naturopaths" (aka hippie "doctors", who aren't actually doctors but can call themselves whatever they'd like in unlicensed states) and Naturopathic Medical Doctors. NDs/NMDs attend 4-year accredited medical schools, take "step 1" boards after two years of basic sciences, and "step 2" boards after their fourth year. Most use USMLE study books and guides, as the clinically-based questions are very similar. It covers everything from clinical diagnoses, labs/imaging/testing, pharmacology (all scheduled drugs), as well as orthopedic testing & manipulation, botanical medicine, nutraceuticals, homeopathy, minor surgery, emergency med, and psych (geez, did I miss anything! :p) There are no "specialty boards" to take beyond that because the specialty is "natural medicine" and is incorporated into the "step 2" board exams (3 full days of non-stop test taking). There are currently two specialty boards for licensed NDs: Oncology and Aesthetics. Residencies are available in those areas as well as in homeopathy and GP for one or two years beyond four-year (naturopathic) medical school. I know because I just graduated from an accredited Naturopathic Medical School and just took my "step 2" boards. I was comparing notes with a seasoned MD (plastics) at the Mayo Clinic who is knowledgeable about the education and clinical training a licensed ND/NMD receives. He concurred the step-1 and step-2 exams are very similar.

I have met "hippie doctors" who are MDs, DOs, DVMs, DDSs, etc... it doesn't matter what path in medicine you choose, there's always going to be those that skip to the beat of their own drummer! There are also going to be some that you wish weren't in your same field who add to some of the unfortunate stereotypes.

Licensed NDs/NMDs don't prescribe leaves to chew on, flowers to rub into your skin, or teas to cure HEP-C! Whether choosing vitamins, minerals, or pharmaceuticals - the goal is to treat the root cause, relieve symptoms and ultimately practice preventative medicine in an integrative manner. Treatment protocols are largely based on biochemical pathways taking place in the body related to the underlying physiology of what may be going on in both acute and chronic situations.

I live in, and will be practicing in, the SF Bay area. I'm not sure that the DO/ND merger is a good thing for California, but what I DO know is that it's important for people to have an understanding of what each "specialty" brings to the table, what their training is, their capabilities are, and understand the importance of not stereotyping or judging before being fully aware of one's education and training. My goal here is to simply offer some insight from a recent (ND) grad's perspective. ;)

There's much public confusion about who and what an ND is, much less knowing the difference between unlicensed "naturopaths" and licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctors. I'm hoping that the union of the DO/ND boards in California will help lessen that confusion and pave the way for more understanding and integration in health care overall. :D
 
When will the madness end?

Everyone and their mother is now a "medical doctor" with their own versions of Step 1/2/3's and licensing. Naturopathic Medical Doctors (NMD)? Are you kidding me?

Why not just go to medical school and do some evidence-based research on the merits of manipulation, botanical medicine, nutraceuticals, homeopathy? It's not like MD schools would be opposed to such "innovations" if they could be empirically proven.
 
I would like to take this opportunity to clear up some misconceptions on who and what licensed Naturopathic Doctors are and what the education consists of. First, there is a HUGE difference between "naturopaths" (aka hippie "doctors", who aren't actually doctors but can call themselves whatever they'd like in unlicensed states) and Naturopathic Medical Doctors. NDs/NMDs attend 4-year accredited medical schools, take "step 1" boards after two years of basic sciences, and "step 2" boards after their fourth year. Most use USMLE study books and guides, as the clinically-based questions are very similar. It covers everything from clinical diagnoses, labs/imaging/testing, pharmacology (all scheduled drugs), as well as orthopedic testing & manipulation, botanical medicine, nutraceuticals, homeopathy, minor surgery, emergency med, and psych (geez, did I miss anything! :p) There are no "specialty boards" to take beyond that because the specialty is "natural medicine" and is incorporated into the "step 2" board exams (3 full days of non-stop test taking). There are currently two specialty boards for licensed NDs: Oncology and Aesthetics. Residencies are available in those areas as well as in homeopathy and GP for one or two years beyond four-year (naturopathic) medical school. I know because I just graduated from an accredited Naturopathic Medical School and just took my "step 2" boards. I was comparing notes with a seasoned MD (plastics) at the Mayo Clinic who is knowledgeable about the education and clinical training a licensed ND/NMD receives. He concurred the step-1 and step-2 exams are very similar.

I have met "hippie doctors" who are MDs, DOs, DVMs, DDSs, etc... it doesn't matter what path in medicine you choose, there's always going to be those that skip to the beat of their own drummer! There are also going to be some that you wish weren't in your same field who add to some of the unfortunate stereotypes.

Licensed NDs/NMDs don't prescribe leaves to chew on, flowers to rub into your skin, or teas to cure HEP-C! Whether choosing vitamins, minerals, or pharmaceuticals - the goal is to treat the root cause, relieve symptoms and ultimately practice preventative medicine in an integrative manner. Treatment protocols are largely based on biochemical pathways taking place in the body related to the underlying physiology of what may be going on in both acute and chronic situations.

I live in, and will be practicing in, the SF Bay area. I'm not sure that the DO/ND merger is a good thing for California, but what I DO know is that it's important for people to have an understanding of what each "specialty" brings to the table, what their training is, their capabilities are, and understand the importance of not stereotyping or judging before being fully aware of one's education and training. My goal here is to simply offer some insight from a recent (ND) grad's perspective. ;)

There's much public confusion about who and what an ND is, much less knowing the difference between unlicensed "naturopaths" and licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctors. I'm hoping that the union of the DO/ND boards in California will help lessen that confusion and pave the way for more understanding and integration in health care overall. :D



I respect what you say and completely understand it. However, I must ask, what role do NDs have in the future of healthcare? You claim to have extensive knowledge of biochemical pathways and nutrition. Fine, yet do we not already have practitioner in those fields able to make clinical judgments? Don’t dietitians and nutritionist work along physicians to manage these aspects of patient care? And doesn’t every academic institute in America have a biochemistry department full of people researching all kinds of medical therapies? The problem with the ND as I see it is that they are given no clinical rights as to the clinical treatment of pathology other than what any pharmacist already has. What exactly can an ND do that has some form of validity to it that a pharmacist or a physician cannot? I have said on these boards before that there are only two kinds of medicine, real medicine, and BS. Because anything that actually worked would be grabbed up by any number of pharm companies, researched like crazy and marketed as the next wonder drug. I am fully aware that many drugs have their origins in “natural” products, and that much of what we do in medicine is marginally effective at best. But I still can’t for the life of me figure out exactly what NDs do that no one else could do?

As an anecdote I will offer a story about my mother who goes to see an ND once a week. She (my mother) now has an entire kitchen cabinet filled with vitamins and minerals that cost her over 500 bucks. I decided that I would accompany my mother to visit her ND one week and what I saw scared the hell out of me. She has a huge store, prime real-estate, on a major intersection in my home town with a big flashing sign. When I walked in I was greeted by a middle aged perky woman who introduced herself as “Dr Sarah.” There were, literally, 25 middle aged women sitting in her store waiting to be seen by her. A quick check outside confirmed my suspicion, all new BMWs and Benz’s. These women had nothing better to do on a Tuesday at 3 in the p.m. than sit in a lobby and wait to see this woman who promised to make them all young again. Dr Sarah sold them all kinds of pills, ran all kinds of sham tests,(she put their feet in water, added some drops and told them that they had X disease) she hooked them up to strange electrical devices promising to calm their “aura” and she even sold my mother some drops for ten bucks that, I kid you not, would “kill viruses in your body.”

This woman was a snake oil salesman, preying on the insecurities of stupid people who want to believe anything. I applaud her business sense, as she is making tons of cash. That said I truly hope she meets with a terrible fate. She, much like Kevin Trudeau, is a special breed of humans who know that deep down inside they are harboring false hope in the weak. They are stealing from the one last thing that separates medicine from every other business in the world, a social responsibility to heal the sick. Say what you will about the pitfalls of American medicine, the profiteering, the lack of uniformity and even its capitalistic approaches, but you cannot deny that nearly each and every one of us does more for our fellow man than most. So I ask you, someone who claims much of their profession, what place do you have in medicine when this is the kind of fellow colleague you have? What does the ND offer that is so special.

Here is your chance to impress us all.
 
I would like to take this opportunity to clear up some misconceptions on who and what licensed Naturopathic Doctors are and what the education consists of. First, there is a HUGE difference between "naturopaths" (aka hippie "doctors", who aren't actually doctors but can call themselves whatever they'd like in unlicensed states) and Naturopathic Medical Doctors. NDs/NMDs attend 4-year accredited medical schools, take "step 1" boards after two years of basic sciences, and "step 2" boards after their fourth year. Most use USMLE study books and guides, as the clinically-based questions are very similar. It covers everything from clinical diagnoses, labs/imaging/testing, pharmacology (all scheduled drugs), as well as orthopedic testing & manipulation, botanical medicine, nutraceuticals, homeopathy, minor surgery, emergency med, and psych (geez, did I miss anything! :p) There are no "specialty boards" to take beyond that because the specialty is "natural medicine" and is incorporated into the "step 2" board exams (3 full days of non-stop test taking). There are currently two specialty boards for licensed NDs: Oncology and Aesthetics. Residencies are available in those areas as well as in homeopathy and GP for one or two years beyond four-year (naturopathic) medical school. I know because I just graduated from an accredited Naturopathic Medical School and just took my "step 2" boards. I was comparing notes with a seasoned MD (plastics) at the Mayo Clinic who is knowledgeable about the education and clinical training a licensed ND/NMD receives. He concurred the step-1 and step-2 exams are very similar.

I have met "hippie doctors" who are MDs, DOs, DVMs, DDSs, etc... it doesn't matter what path in medicine you choose, there's always going to be those that skip to the beat of their own drummer! There are also going to be some that you wish weren't in your same field who add to some of the unfortunate stereotypes.

Licensed NDs/NMDs don't prescribe leaves to chew on, flowers to rub into your skin, or teas to cure HEP-C! Whether choosing vitamins, minerals, or pharmaceuticals - the goal is to treat the root cause, relieve symptoms and ultimately practice preventative medicine in an integrative manner. Treatment protocols are largely based on biochemical pathways taking place in the body related to the underlying physiology of what may be going on in both acute and chronic situations.

I live in, and will be practicing in, the SF Bay area. I'm not sure that the DO/ND merger is a good thing for California, but what I DO know is that it's important for people to have an understanding of what each "specialty" brings to the table, what their training is, their capabilities are, and understand the importance of not stereotyping or judging before being fully aware of one's education and training. My goal here is to simply offer some insight from a recent (ND) grad's perspective. ;)

There's much public confusion about who and what an ND is, much less knowing the difference between unlicensed "naturopaths" and licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctors. I'm hoping that the union of the DO/ND boards in California will help lessen that confusion and pave the way for more understanding and integration in health care overall. :D

God this thread makes me see red ....

GREAT!!! You're probably the third person to come on here and write a huge post about how ND are 'nauropathic medical doctors' and take 'step' tests, etc etc. Trust me when I say this ... you aren't converting anyone, and I do not care how great NDs are, how many steps they take, how many big tough science classes they conquer, how many seek further training in cosmetics and oncology (good LORD I don't think I can dream up two fields where non-fully licensed physicians should NOT be promoting themselves as doctors. Cancer, REALLY????), etc etc etc. Until NDs are recognized as fully licensed physicians in every state in the union, have full script rights, etc they should NOT be anywhere near a board with MD/DOs, and definitely should NOT have seats on a board that has .001% weight on a DO license.

I know I'm being harsh, and probably sound ignorant - I don't care. I see NDs as just another person trying to get a piece of the pie without putting in the work, and being validated by something like this is insulting and dangerous.
 
God this thread makes me see red ....

GREAT!!! You're probably the third person to come on here and write a huge post about how ND are 'nauropathic medical doctors' and take 'step' tests, etc etc. Trust me when I say this ... you aren't converting anyone, and I do not care how great NDs are, how many steps they take, how many big tough science classes they conquer, how many seek further training in cosmetics and oncology (good LORD I don't think I can dream up two fields where non-fully licensed physicians should NOT be promoting themselves as doctors. Cancer, REALLY????), etc etc etc. Until NDs are recognized as fully licensed physicians in every state in the union, have full script rights, etc they should NOT be anywhere near a board with MD/DOs, and definitely should NOT have seats on a board that has .001% weight on a DO license.

I know I'm being harsh, and probably sound ignorant - I don't care. I see NDs as just another person trying to get a piece of the pie without putting in the work, and being validated by something like this is insulting and dangerous.

just reminded me of what would someone say to a DO back in the day.
 
I respect what you say and completely understand it. However, I must ask, what role do NDs have in the future of healthcare? You claim to have extensive knowledge of biochemical pathways and nutrition. Fine, yet do we not already have practitioner in those fields able to make clinical judgments? Don’t dietitians and nutritionist work along physicians to manage these aspects of patient care? And doesn’t every academic institute in America have a biochemistry department full of people researching all kinds of medical therapies? The problem with the ND as I see it is that they are given no clinical rights as to the clinical treatment of pathology other than what any pharmacist already has. What exactly can an ND do that has some form of validity to it that a pharmacist or a physician cannot? I have said on these boards before that there are only two kinds of medicine, real medicine, and BS. Because anything that actually worked would be grabbed up by any number of pharm companies, researched like crazy and marketed as the next wonder drug. I am fully aware that many drugs have their origins in “natural” products, and that much of what we do in medicine is marginally effective at best. But I still can’t for the life of me figure out exactly what NDs do that no one else could do?

As an anecdote I will offer a story about my mother who goes to see an ND once a week. She (my mother) now has an entire kitchen cabinet filled with vitamins and minerals that cost her over 500 bucks. I decided that I would accompany my mother to visit her ND one week and what I saw scared the hell out of me. She has a huge store, prime real-estate, on a major intersection in my home town with a big flashing sign. When I walked in I was greeted by a middle aged perky woman who introduced herself as “Dr Sarah.” There were, literally, 25 middle aged women sitting in her store waiting to be seen by her. A quick check outside confirmed my suspicion, all new BMWs and Benz’s. These women had nothing better to do on a Tuesday at 3 in the p.m. than sit in a lobby and wait to see this woman who promised to make them all young again. Dr Sarah sold them all kinds of pills, ran all kinds of sham tests,(she put their feet in water, added some drops and told them that they had X disease) she hooked them up to strange electrical devices promising to calm their “aura” and she even sold my mother some drops for ten bucks that, I kid you not, would “kill viruses in your body.”

This woman was a snake oil salesman, preying on the insecurities of stupid people who want to believe anything. I applaud her business sense, as she is making tons of cash. That said I truly hope she meets with a terrible fate. She, much like Kevin Trudeau, is a special breed of humans who know that deep down inside they are harboring false hope in the weak. They are stealing from the one last thing that separates medicine from every other business in the world, a social responsibility to heal the sick. Say what you will about the pitfalls of American medicine, the profiteering, the lack of uniformity and even its capitalistic approaches, but you cannot deny that nearly each and every one of us does more for our fellow man than most. So I ask you, someone who claims much of their profession, what place do you have in medicine when this is the kind of fellow colleague you have? What does the ND offer that is so special.

Here is your chance to impress us all.

Ah, yes, the ol' "Mainstream medicine's got it all covered. Those with other ideas need not apply."

Look around, danzman. The health of Americans is plummeting. But not to worry; you've got it all figured out.

I think it's fair to say that most NDs take a much greater interest in tackling the 'lifestyle diseases' that plague Americans. On the other hand, as evidenced by any number of threads on the topic on SDN, much of mainstream medicine takes the stance that it's not medicine's problem; after all, these patients are simply lazy and lack personal responsibility, and MDs can't do anything about that.

As to your anecdote, that's an n of 1 and I think it's unfair (and you know this too) to label all ND based on this one example. By the way, aren't many plastic sugeons' and cosmetic dermatologists' offices filled with these same tiype patients (Benz-driving, wealthy, middle age, trying to remain ageless, etc.)? Hmmmm.
 
Cancer, REALLY????)...

Restricting my comments just to the oncology issue, I really don't think any responsible ND would try to argue that conventional oncology should be thrown overboard in favor of 'alternative' cancer treatments. NDs (and others) are involved in 'integrative' care for cancer patients. It's no secret that cancer treatments, while sometimes life-saving, beat the hell out of patients. The notion of integrative care for cancer patients is one of trying to support the patient while they are being treated. Sure, we may see over time more alternative therapies being employed as actual treatment, but I think for now it's a noble pursuit to attempt to benefit the patient's overall health while they are undergoing a notoriously brutal treatment. And who better to be involved in this than those who have been promoting health forever?

I think I may have posted this link before, but here's one book (there are others) that describes the role of integrative cancer care:
http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Gu...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250777278&sr=1-2
 
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