California to Merge Naturopathic Board with DO Board

[danzman]

Ah, yes, the ol' "Mainstream medicine's got it all covered. Those with other ideas need not apply."

Look around, danzman. The health of Americans is plummeting. But not to worry; you've got it all figured out.

I think it's fair to say that most NDs take a much greater interest in tackling the 'lifestyle diseases' that plague Americans. On the other hand, as evidenced by any number of threads on the topic on SDN, much of mainstream medicine takes the stance that it's not medicine's problem; after all, these patients are simply lazy and lack personal responsibility, and MDs can't do anything about that.

As to your anecdote, that's an n of 1 and I think it's unfair (and you know this too) to label all ND based on this one example. By the way, aren't many plastic sugeons' and cosmetic dermatologists' offices filled with these same tiype patients (Benz-driving, wealthy, middle age, trying to remain ageless, etc.)? Hmmmm.

Hey now, no one said anything about mainstream medicine having all the answers. As I said above, I think that at least half of everything we do in medicine is marginally effective at best, much of it is a waste. And the reason that the health of America is plummeting is because we sit on our lazy asses all day, eat crap, smoke, and don’t exercise. So yes, as a matter of fact, I do have it all figured out. But that’s just it, you don’t need a 4 yr degree and the title of naturopathic physician to tell people to get off their asses and put down the cake. That job can be done quite well by a nutritionist/dietician/any other health care provider. And say what you will about plastic surgeons, at least they help with peoples self esteem. Making false promises about healthcare while stealing money from helpless people by selling them herbs should be punishable by death, or at least by having to live the rest of your life in a little cell. I stand by my previous statement; there is nothing that an ND can do that a physician cannot. What purpose do they serve other than to council people on their diets, and sell them dubious supplements?

Again, medicine aint got all the answers, but anything that alternative medicine came up with that actually worked would be grabbed up by research institutions and drug companies and made profitable. I get that there are many biologically active compounds in the roots of plants. I just don’t think anyone should ever substitute them for evidence based medicine.

I ask you, when you get a protozoan infection are you going to take licorice or take some flagyl? When you have a stroke are you going to the ER or are you gonna call the ND? When you get a meningitis are you gonna take a third gen cephalosporin or a mega dose of vitamin B12? The reason you will always side with modern medicine is because it is the best of what we have and we have the most information about it. Sure licorice might treat a protozoan infection with a big enough dose, but I know damn good and well that Flagyl will, and I know just how much to give, the interactions, contraindications, and a million other things about it. NDs have tried to create a market for themselves by claiming that they hold some secret to health, some secret knowledge attained by studying biochemistry that allows them to mix and match the right dosage of herbs in order to attain near everlasting life. Sounds just like Kevin Trudeau to me. Hmmmmmmmm.


I am honestly trying to understand their role, and would welcome information from them.

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[facetguy]

I ask you, when you get a protozoan infection are you going to take licorice or take some flagyl? When you have a stroke are you going to the ER or are you gonna call the ND? When you get a meningitis are you gonna take a third gen cephalosporin or a mega dose of vitamin B12? The reason you will always side with modern medicine is because it is the best of what we have and we have the most information about it. Sure licorice might treat a protozoan infection with a big enough dose, but I know damn good and well that Flagyl will, and I know just how much to give, the interactions, contraindications, and a million other things about it. NDs have tried to create a market for themselves by claiming that they hold some secret to health, some secret knowledge attained by studying biochemistry that allows them to mix and match the right dosage of herbs in order to attain near everlasting life. Sounds just like Kevin Trudeau to me. Hmmmmmmmm.

Of course I'd go the medical route for those situations, and I hope everyone would. But if I need guidance in getting healthier, I think I'd be disappointed in what medicine has to offer overall. This relates to an aspect of the current healthcare reform debate: healthcare does not equal health. As such, reforming healthcare won't make us much healthier. But that's another issue altogether.

And I wasn't knocking plastics. I was simply pointing out that they often see patients fitting the description of those you were mocking.

And keep your protozoa away from me please.

 

[danzman]

Fair enough. But a little Entamoeba Histolytica never hurt anyone..

 

[JaggerPlate]

just reminded me of what would someone say to a DO back in the day.

If by back in the day, you mean WAY back in the day before DOs were fully licensed physicians, recognized by the AMA, able to sit for the USMLE, complete ACGME residencies and become BC in ABMS fields, then sure ... you'd be absolutely correct. I was pretty clean in my statement saying that if NDs had all these assets, like DOs, but kept a holisticish type philosophy, I wouldn't care about being on a merged board or working with them, etc. Just like I wouldn't care a merged DO/MD board in CA. However, they aren't so my argument stands and in no way applies to any current form of DO.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Restricting my comments just to the oncology issue, I really don't think any responsible ND would try to argue that conventional oncology should be thrown overboard in favor of 'alternative' cancer treatments. NDs (and others) are involved in 'integrative' care for cancer patients. It's no secret that cancer treatments, while sometimes life-saving, beat the hell out of patients. The notion of integrative care for cancer patients is one of trying to support the patient while they are being treated. Sure, we may see over time more alternative therapies being employed as actual treatment, but I think for now it's a noble pursuit to attempt to benefit the patient's overall health while they are undergoing a notoriously brutal treatment. And who better to be involved in this than those who have been promoting health forever?

I think I may have posted this link before, but here's one book (there are others) that describes the role of integrative cancer care:
http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Gu...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250777278&sr=1-2

1. Super, I'm all for pre-operative care in all forms for cancer patients. Be it herbal, spiritual, etc, honestly whatever it takes. However, this is what's wrong:

'Dr. Joe Smith completed a residency in Oncology*'

*Joe Smith is actually a ND who completed a Nauropathic residency in Oncology.

See how misleading that could be?? It's also great if the doc is ethical enough to turn away patients and say you need chemotherapy, then come see me for catcus extract, wellness advising, etc. However, like someone else pointed out, these docs make good money peddling this sh.it and I doubt many would do that. They should be advertised as a residency in 'post traumatic wellness' or something, not ONCOLOGY. It's dangerous and wrong.

2. Those cancer treatments wreck your body and are barbaric because cancer is a horrible plague and you have to do whatever it takes to kill it. The treatments are rough, there is no doubt there ... but they work. Offering augmented 'alternative' care or post cancer care is honestly great, I'm all for that. But NOT as an alternative to proven methods.

Take a look at Steve McQueen ... the guy died of stomach cancer in Mexico with a coffee enema up his ass (though his cancer was end game as is).

 

[facetguy]

1. Super, I'm all for pre-operative care in all forms for cancer patients. Be it herbal, spiritual, etc, honestly whatever it takes. However, this is what's wrong:

'Dr. Joe Smith completed a residency in Oncology*'

*Joe Smith is actually a ND who completed a Nauropathic residency in Oncology.

See how misleading that could be?? It's also great if the doc is ethical enough to turn away patients and say you need chemotherapy, then come see me for catcus extract, wellness advising, etc. However, like someone else pointed out, these docs make good money peddling this sh.it and I doubt many would do that. They should be advertised as a residency in 'post traumatic wellness' or something, not ONCOLOGY. It's dangerous and wrong.

2. Those cancer treatments wreck your body and are barbaric because cancer is a horrible plague and you have to do whatever it takes to kill it. The treatments are rough, there is no doubt there ... but they work. Offering augmented 'alternative' care or post cancer care is honestly great, I'm all for that. But NOT as an alternative to proven methods.

Take a look at Steve McQueen ... the guy died of stomach cancer in Mexico with a coffee enema up his ass (though his cancer was end game as is).

I happen to like coffee.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I happen to like coffee.

Hahaha ... remind me never to borrow your mug after you're done with it.

 

[facetguy]

Hahaha ... remind me never to borrow your mug after you're done with it.

 

[SDN]

I wonder if the OMB will have the ability to change the requirements for ND licensure in California?

 

[brucecanbeatyou]

I wonder if the OMB will have the ability to change the requirements for ND licensure in California?

Yeah, haha, why not? They could mandate that all ND's must attend an MD or DO school in order to practice. Why aren't ND's freaking out about this?

 

[ShyRem]

And also perhaps their scope of practice. The thought of an ND being a "primary care physician" able to prescribe controlled substances with such little clinical training is more than a little frightening.

 

[RetinaTazer]

I don't know how the bureau of NDs will be structured within Osteopathic Medical Board of California (OMBC). If OMBC is given the supervisory role in regulating the NDs, that is a great responsibility that OMBC should feel be honored. If NDs are given the same role and number of seats in the board which regulates DOs, this is then very scandalous.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Sent today

The osteopathic profession needs your help – as an osteopathic medical student – in our efforts to overturn the merger of the naturopathic licensing board into the Osteopathic Medical Board of California (OMBC).

Although OPSC had received assurances that this would not happen, the legislature included the merger as part of the “urgent” budget process, and Governor Schwarzenegger signed it into law. Beginning October 23, the licensure of osteopathic physicians and surgeons will be overseen by naturopaths.

Perhaps the most offensive part of this action was the placement of two naturopathic doctors as members of the OMBC. This means naturopaths – who have no clinical training, no authority to independently prescribe medications, and no ability to perform surgery, review complex tests, etc – will now sit in judgment over osteopathic physicians who come before the licensure board.

If you find this appalling, there are three steps you can take to help the Osteopathic Physicians & Surgeons of California (OPSC) in our efforts to overturn this merger:

1. Write a letter to Governor Schwarzenegger

OPSC has developed a fact sheet and sample letter to help you develop a letter expressing your outrage to Governor Schwarzenegger. Be sure to personalize the letter, and please send a copy to OPSC ([email protected]).

2. Attend the OMBC meeting in Sacramento

If you’re also able to attend the September 24 meeting of the OMBC, even better. That meeting will be held:

Thursday, September 24, 10:00 am
1625 N. Market Blvd, Suite S306

3. Vote on further OPSC action

Click here to provide guidance to the OPSC Board of Directors as they decide on further action.

If you have any questions on this issue, please feel free to contact the OPSC office at www.opsc.org or (800) 638-6772.

Jeff Bloom, DO
OPSC President 2009-2010

I feel like writing to the governor and suggesting merger of all under one medical board

 

[meister]

Arnold is the worst governor in the nation. All he knows how to do is slash budgets randomly and figure out ridiculous gimmicks to "save money." What a joke.

California needs a constitutional convention asap.

 

[DrWBD]

I feel like writing to the governor and suggesting merger of all under one medical board

Didn't that almost happen once already?

I wonder if/when this will make it into the OMT textbooks as "The California Crisis - Part II!

 

[bth7]

And also perhaps their scope of practice. The thought of an ND being a "primary care physician" able to prescribe controlled substances with such little clinical training is more than a little frightening.

Ah, fear, such a wonderful way exercise one's judgement.

It's too bad that when people don't understand something because it is different from them or their training, they immediately assume it is substandard.

Welcome to health care reality. Where DOs, MDs, NPs, PAs, and yes, even NDs are all part of the same team, and yes, in some cases are even regulated (Gasp!) by the same government oversight boards.

Ultimately, patients can decide who they go to for care. I've met plenty of NDs who could run circles around the average DO in terms of patient care & medical knowledge.

bth

 

[bth7]

Who cares what the public knows about it? This board investigates and has the power to censure physicians. Do you want Naturopathic doctors with grossly dissimilar training disciplining DOs?

Actually, I think its a great idea.

Nothing pleases me more than seeing a nurse give an arrogant doctor a dressing down.

 

[bth7]

DocGreen, for as diplomatic as you are being, don't look for any love around here because unfortunately you won't find it. Mainstream medicine is not prepared to give you any credibility, and medical students are probably even worse. There will be no collaborative efforts forthcoming, because only mainstream medicine can help anyone, or so you would believe around here. Just focus on your training and your patients, and become the best ND you can. Don't get distracted.

Perfectly put. Agree 100%.

DocGreen, good luck in all your efforts trying to protect patients. Unfortunately, most doctors and student doctors in the osteopathic realm are more committed to protecting their egos. One day, maybe they'll listen. But don't hold your breath.

bth

 

[bth7]

I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen, but the extent to which it does is grossly exaggerated because pharm companies are easy targets: they're capitalistic entities, and following the mantra of the times, capitalism is bad.

Grossly exaggerated? Those poor pharm companies! Why won't anyone leave them alone!

Pfizer Pays $2.3 Billion to Settle Marketing Case
Published: September 2, 2009

WASHINGTON — The pharmaceutical giant Pfizer agreed to pay $2.3 billion to settle civil and criminal allegations that it had illegally marketed its painkiller Bextra, which has been withdrawn. It was the largest health care fraud settlement and the largest criminal fine of any kind ever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/business/03health.html

 

[bigDinLV]

Ah, fear, such a wonderful way exercise one's judgement.

It's too bad that when people don't understand something because it is different from them or their training, they immediately assume it is substandard.

Welcome to health care reality. Where DOs, MDs, NPs, PAs, and yes, even NDs are all part of the same team, and yes, in some cases are even regulated (Gasp!) by the same government oversight boards.

Ultimately, patients can decide who they go to for care. I've met plenty of NDs who could run circles around the average DO in terms of patient care & medical knowledge.

bth

Oh no!!! She said frightening, she is spreading fear!!!

Don't you have anything better to do?? If a ND is sooooo qualified and has an education comparable to an attening physician that has completed residency. I suggest you let a brand new ND, fresh out of school, take care of someone you love if they ever end up in an ICU.

 

[Daemos]

In British Columbia, Canada, Naturopaths have been given the same rights and privilages as Family Physcians.

My brother who WAS at the Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine, dropped out because they didn't even have any labs, their lectures were poor, and they didn't teach any real clinical science. He is now persuing to become a Medical Doctor. If anyone wants to defend any Natuopaths, go to their schools and attend their lectures and tell me if what they learn will enable them to practice medicine safely. My brother didn't which is why he dropped out.

 

[bth7]

Oh no!!! She said frightening, she is spreading fear!!!

Don't you have anything better to do?? If a ND is sooooo qualified and has an education comparable to an attening physician that has completed residency. I suggest you let a brand new ND, fresh out of school, take care of someone you love if they ever end up in an ICU.

Dude, no one is suggesting that you put NDs in charge of patients in the ICU. No one is equating their education to an attending physician who has completed residency.

You can act like that's what people are saying, but, its not.

People are saying there's a place for many types of providers in health care. Especially at the primary care level.

bth

 

[bth7]

In British Columbia, Canada, Naturopaths have been given the same rights and privilages as Family Physcians.

My brother who WAS at the Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine, dropped out because they didn't even have any labs, their lectures were poor, and they didn't teach any real clinical science. He is now persuing to become a Medical Doctor. If anyone wants to defend any Natuopaths, go to their schools and attend their lectures and tell me if what they learn will enable them to practice medicine safely. My brother didn't which is why he dropped out.

The same is said by many MDs about DO school.

They come to our schools and say:

Where is the lab for the department of pathology? The dept of microbiology?

How many physicians work for the dept of oncology?

How many pediatricians? Surgeons? Psychiatrists? Radiologists? Neurologists?

For an MD school, there are dozens of physicians in each of these departments. For a DO school, there may be ZERO.

There are no departments of surgery, oncology, pediatrics, neurology at many DO schools. There's just a "department of OMM."

Rather, at many DO schools, there is one lecturer that they hire on a temporary basis to come flip through power-point slides to the students on that topic. After those lectures, the students may never see this person again. The "department of surgery" doesn't exist.

bth

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

I've met plenty of NDs who could run circles around the average DO in terms of patient care & medical knowledge.

bth

 

[smq123]

Ultimately, patients can decide who they go to for care. I've met plenty of NDs who could run circles around the average DO in terms of patient care & medical knowledge.

So why did you become a DO?

 

[bth7]

So why did you become a DO?

Because in MY case, with MY goals, becoming an osteopathic physician made more sense.

We need to look at our goals, and understand that there's a place and role for MDs, DOs, PAs, NPs, NDs, and many other providers in health care.

We all bring a unique element of training and emphasis to the team, but in the end our goal should be the same: improve the overall health of our patients.

Infighting and inter-professional turf wars get us no where. They don't improve the health of our patients. These wars don't protect patients. They just create acrimony between players.

Let's focus on improving the serious shortcomings of our own profession, before we start trying to discredit another.

bth

 

[smq123]

Infighting and inter-professional turf wars get us no where. They don't improve the health of our patients. These wars don't protect patients. They just create acrimony between players.

Let's focus on improving the serious shortcomings of our own profession, before we start trying to discredit another.

While I agree that infighting gets you no where, the question is...WHY does this even have to be a "fight"? Shouldn't it be fairly obvious that NDs and DOs are trained differently, according to a different philosophy, with a very different scope of practice?

No one has advocated getting rid of NDs altogether. But what people ARE advocating is that the government of California not lump NDs and DOs together.

Why should the recognition that what DOs do is very separate (no one has even mentioned the word "superior" here, even) from what NDs do create acrimony? It's a simple statement of fact. What DOs do is different from NDs, just like what RNs do is different from what physicians do. Why is that such a controversial statement?

The DO refusal to be lumped with NDs is NOT a secret sign of disdain for NDs. It's just a demand that the government recognize them for what they are - osteopathic physicians. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[bth7]

While I agree that infighting gets you no where, the question is...WHY does this even have to be a "fight"? Shouldn't it be fairly obvious that NDs and DOs are trained differently, according to a different philosophy, with a very different scope of practice?

No one has advocated getting rid of NDs altogether. But what people ARE advocating is that the government of California not lump NDs and DOs together.

Why should the recognition that what DOs do is very separate (no one has even mentioned the word "superior" here, even) from what NDs do create acrimony? It's a simple statement of fact. What DOs do is different from NDs, just like what RNs do is different from what physicians do. Why is that such a controversial statement?

The DO refusal to be lumped with NDs is NOT a secret sign of disdain for NDs. It's just a demand that the government recognize them for what they are - osteopathic physicians. There's nothing wrong with that.

Thanks for the reasonable tone. I appreciate your comments.

I agree with what you say, except for one thing.

No one is "lumping" NDs and DOs together.

DOs are different from NDs today, they will be different from NDs tomorrow. The minor (very minor) detail of re-organizing the osteopathic state board section in the Department of Consumer Affairs will change NOTHING. It will affect NO ONE.

The government recognizes osteopathic physicians, it will continue to do so, in exactly the same fashion, before and after the change in the Department of Consumer Affairs.

The standards for osteopathic licensure in California will be utterly unaffected, since this Department of Consumer Affairs doesn't control them. The AOA controls them, and this "board" simply endorses the standards that the AOA requires.

Its the Department of Consumer Affairs people. They investigate consumer complaints. Let's take a look at their recent actions.

"PETERSEN, Dennis D.O., Temecula, CA. B&P Code sections 726, sexual relations with a patient; 2234(b), gross negligence; 2234(c), repeated acts of negligence; 2242(a) prescribing without good faith examination; 2266, failure to maintain adequate and accurate records; 2234, unprofessional conduct. Revocation stayed; seven years probation with terms and conditions, ordered 11-02-2007, effective 12-03-2007."

"PHAM, Dzung Anh D.O., Irvine CA B&P Code section 2234(b), negligence; B&P Code section 2234(c), repeated negligent acts; B&P Code section 2234(d), incompetence; B&P Code section 725, excessive prescribing; B&P Code section 2242, prescribing without a good faith examination; B&P Code section 2241, prescribing to an addict; B&P Code section 2266, failure to maintain adequate records. Public Reprimand with terms and conditions issued 01-19-2007"

This is what this board does. Stop the WORST doctors who are out there practicing BAD medicine.

That's it. Nothing more. That's what they do.


bth

 

[JaggerPlate]

Writing letters is a step at least. I'd be glad to write one.

Oh bth ..... you and soapboxes - the great love affair of our time.

 

[bth7]

Oh bth ..... you and soapboxes - the great love affair of our time.

Well, I try. I'm glad to hear its a love affair. Sometimes I wonder if people are going to lynch me just to get me to shut up.

I try to have a sense of humor about it. I am aware that others don't always agree.

This Consumer Affairs board merger is seriously not a big deal in my opinion. We have much bigger fish to fry.

Carry on . . .

bth

 

[JaggerPlate]

Well, I try. I'm glad to hear its a love affair. Sometimes I wonder if people are going to lynch me just to get me to shut up.

I try to have a sense of humor about it. I am aware that others don't always agree.

This Consumer Affairs board merger is seriously not a big deal in my opinion. We have much bigger fish to fry.

Carry on . . .

bth

Yeah, I'm just messing with you. I'm glad you think the board merging isn't too big of a deal. I still really dislike it and will do my part to try and get it worked out, but it is reassuring (in some sense) to hear people with more experience focusing on other things.

 

[bth7]

This is nonsense. If he was having a little nookie with the patient, how can they say he didn't examine her? That's a contradiction. He should appeal.

Agreed. If it wasn't for those dang Natropaths, we'd be able to have a little fun with our patients.

Stop the insanity. Fight this insane merger.

bth

 

[chartero]

In British Columbia, Canada, Naturopaths have been given the same rights and privilages as Family Physcians.

For the record, this isn't the case. They will be eligible to prescribe certain drugs after completing a certification course.

 

[LaTeeCatin]

How is this even possible??? Oh my god. This is honestly horrible. I cannot believe there haven't been hundreds of responses on this thread. Absolutely unacceptable. This cannot happen.

Umm...yet another reason I no longer live in CA...I pray for the safety of the remaining CA residents

 

[bth7]

Umm...yet another reason I no longer live in CA...I pray for the safety of the remaining CA residents

There's only 2 of them left. And they are barely hanging on for dear life.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Umm...yet another reason I no longer live in CA...I pray for the safety of the remaining CA residents

Yeah, Cali sucks. You definitely got out in time man. Thanks for the prayers.

 

[NonTradDO]

Not sure if this was posted, but the Osteopathic Medical Board of California put up sample letter to use... I dont' know why it says "Osteopathic physicians have full rights and priviledges equivalent to medical doctors" when MD doesn't stand for medical doctor...b ut anyway, here is a letter to base yours off of http://www.opsc.org/associations/3929/files/SampleLetterMembers.pdf

 

[HolisticMD]

I am surprised that DO's are making such a big deal about this. They always "tout" how more open minded than MD's they are - especially their so called "treat the person as a whole" holistic philosophy. Unfortunately, DO's have lost that philosophy over the years. In my opinion, today's DO's schools only exist because of students who cannot get into allopathic medical school. They have lost their "alternative approach" to drugs and surgery. This is the problem with healthcare in this country- narrow minded students like the ones on this forum who think they are all that. Remember it was not too long ago when the DO profession was not accepted by mainstream medicine and had to struggle like the ND's (who go to accredited schools) today. Most DO's in other countries are similar to DC's. Plus I think that all of you need to be more educated about naturopathic physicians vs. traditional naturopaths (online grads). This why we as a country are so far behind the rest of the world in education- we speak and have judgements without knowing the entire picture! Why don't all of you read about your profession's history!

 

[Dissected]

I am surprised that DO's are making such a big deal about this. They always "tout" how more open minded than MD's they are - especially their so called "treat the person as a whole" holistic philosophy. Unfortunately, DO's have lost that philosophy over the years. In my opinion, today's DO's schools only exist because of students who cannot get into allopathic medical school. They have lost their "alternative approach" to drugs and surgery. This is the problem with healthcare in this country- narrow minded students like the ones on this forum who think they are all that. Remember it was not too long ago when the DO profession was not accepted by mainstream medicine and had to struggle like the ND's (who go to accredited schools) today. Most DO's in other countries are similar to DC's. Plus I think that all of you need to be more educated about naturopathic physicians vs. traditional naturopaths (online grads). This why we as a country are so far behind the rest of the world in education- we speak and have judgements without knowing the entire picture! Why don't all of you read about your profession's history!

You speak in MASSIVE generalities. Blanket statements are useless when talking about a population where everyone's motivations and opinions are unique. I know plenty about our history..we had an entire unit devoted to it as I'm sure many other osteopathic curriculums do. Osteopathic schools educate the physician to form the foundation of their medical education, what happens after that is entirely up to the individual. Exactly how would you suggest DO's implement a "more holistic approach?" Ignore evidence based medicine? Latch on to drug theories with no concrete research or evidence? Because every experience I have had with ND's has made me ever more confident that they tend to do these things. I am really uncomfortable calling them physicians or anything close to it. I know that there are many believers, and good for them, but that doesn't mean they should carry weight among a governing body for physicians.

I realize that OMM is difficult to research and form concrete theories, but I have been intrigued by it and know as well as any that there are limitations in its treatment and diagnosis. You have to understand and be competent in all areas of general medicine to really bear the responsibility of a physician, and ND's just aren't doing it for me. Some of the things I've heard come from their mouths are straight up disconcerting.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[Dissected]

In my opinion, today's DO's schools only exist because of students who cannot get into allopathic medical school.

Oh, and one more thing: That is absurd. For some it's a fallback, Ill give you that, but the only reason they exist? . I'm perfectly content, as are most of my classmates.

Remember it was not too long ago when the DO profession was not accepted by mainstream medicine and had to struggle like the ND's

and your point is..?

So you're saying that we are not struggling nowadays, while also saying we are using less "alternative" methods? Any correlation there, do ya think? I'm fine with not struggling in the medical field. I see no reason to practice non-conformity in the field of medicine if its evidence based.

Oh yea, and what is an "alternative approach" to surgery?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Please don't feed the troll. Despite how big of a jackass it may be.

 

[mashmetoo]

soo, what happened? Did they merge?

 

[Lokhtar]

In for a penny, in for a pound as they say. Either your education is scientific, or it is not. DOs now have the academic and clinical credentials equivalent to those of MD students, and yet they want to maintain an artificial difference under the guise of how they are somehow more holistic. The best thing that osteopathic physicians can do is to minimize and eliminate these supposed difference instead of trying to accentuating them. Or others are going to use the same excuse to try to give credence to their pseudoscience.

 

[Socrates25]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. For years, MDs and DOs have been frustrated by all the crap "expansion of scope" stuff being out out by these naturopaths. Up until now, real doctors never had a say in it, because the naturopaths always claimed that according to the law, only the naturopathic medical board could set/write/adjust their scope.

Now, with the stroke of a pen, California says NO, that the DO board writes the scope and sets the licensure for naturopaths.

This is a HUGE opportunity. The DOs should throw the kitchen sink at the NDs. Take away their sham licenses, refuse to recognize any of the ND schools, etc.

Even if there are 3 NDs that get added to the DO board, that wont be enough to override the membership of the board. The ND profession is now at the strict mercy of the DOs, and the DOs should use that to their advantage.

But wait, there's more! Sort of a "double bonus" if you will. Even if the combined board isnt very successful in "dysregulating" the ND so-called profession, at the very least it will piss off the NDs in a major way. Pretty soon, they will be spending all their legislative capital trying to repeal the law. Instead of wasting hard earned dollars fighting the California govt, the NDs will do your dirty work for you.

This is truly a historic opportunity to put the NDs back in their place. Dont waste this golden moment. Take advantage of it.

 

[bth7]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. For years, MDs and DOs have been frustrated by all the crap "expansion of scope" stuff being out out by these naturopaths. Up until now, real doctors never had a say in it, because the naturopaths always claimed that according to the law, only the naturopathic medical board could set/write/adjust their scope.

Now, with the stroke of a pen, California says NO, that the DO board writes the scope and sets the licensure for naturopaths.

This is a HUGE opportunity. The DOs should throw the kitchen sink at the NDs. Take away their sham licenses, refuse to recognize any of the ND schools, etc.

Even if there are 3 NDs that get added to the DO board, that wont be enough to override the membership of the board. The ND profession is now at the strict mercy of the DOs, and the DOs should use that to their advantage.

But wait, there's more! Sort of a "double bonus" if you will. Even if the combined board isnt very successful in "dysregulating" the ND so-called profession, at the very least it will piss off the NDs in a major way. Pretty soon, they will be spending all their legislative capital trying to repeal the law. Instead of wasting hard earned dollars fighting the California govt, the NDs will do your dirty work for you.

This is truly a historic opportunity to put the NDs back in their place. Dont waste this golden moment. Take advantage of it.

Just one problem.

This board has absolutely no control over the standards for licensing DOs or NDs.

It's a part of the Department of Consumer Affairs. They investigate consumer complaints. Like, "my doctor made a pass at me."

That's all they do.

Whether it merges or not will have absolutely no impact, on anyone, whatsoever.

bth

 

[Siggy]

Basically what BTH said. OMBC does license DOs, but they license them following the rules laid down by the legislature and not their own rules. Now I guess what OMBC can do is make it a procedural challenge to be licensed as a ND when/if this every comes to fruition. What's funny is how the different medical organizations have talked to us (us=WU/COMP students). We had a representative from Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons of California (OPSC) and LA County Medical Association come to talk to the students about it. When confronted with "Well, there are plenty of other combined boards (e.g. California Medical Board licenses PAs in addition to MDs. Maryland pretty much licenses everyone throught their Board of Physicians [MDs, DOs, RTs, 3-4 different rads allied health fields, etc]), OSPC basically admitted that it really wasn't that big of a deal while LACMA basically said that the PAs was a special case, but this is a complete power grab by the NDs for an expanded scope of practice.

Simple facts:
1. Licensing boards are governed, in the end, by state law.

2. I bet if I walked down the street by Western University and asked the first 10 people "Who licenses osteopathic physicians in California?" that maybe 1 will answer correctly. Most of them either won't know at all or guess a generic "board of medicine."

3. If I asked who licenses NDs, the answers would probably be the same as 2 in regards to a generic "board of medicine."

 

[JaggerPlate]

Anybody have an update on this clusterf*ck?

 

[EricH]

I spoke with Dustin Corcoran at the CMA. He said that they were joining OPSC in the fight. Last I heard they were working on a lawsuit to challenge it.

You can check CMANET.org for updates.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I spoke with Dustin Corcoran at the CMA. He said that they were joining OPSC in the fight. Last I heard they were working on a lawsuit to challenge it.

You can check CMANET.org for updates.

I like the enthusiasm.