Can I be a Dermatologist with DO?

[YDeeBY]

Hello everyone!

Can I still become a successful Dermatologist with DO?

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[deleted407021]

Yes, but derm residencies are hard to snag for MD and DO, yet especially so for the latter.

If dermatology is really what you're after (though your interests will almost certainly change a dozen times during school), then I'd advise you go to an allopathic school. Even then, it's unlikely that's the career you'd end up with. Lots of people do an extra year of post grad research just to be competitive for dermatology residencies.

So yeah, there are DO dermatologists but they certainly didn't waltz into that particular specialty. They had to combine hard work, networking and luck.

 

[allantois]

The vast majority of derm DOs trained at osteopathic programs, which are now disappearing.

 

[YDeeBY]

Yes, but derm residencies are hard to snag for MD and DO, yet especially so for the latter.

If dermatology is really what you're after (though your interests will almost certainly change a dozen times during school), then I'd advise you go to an allopathic school. Even then, it's unlikely that's the career you'd end up with. Lots of people do an extra year of post grad research just to be competitive for dermatology residencies.

So yeah, there are DO dermatologists but they certainly didn't waltz into that particular specialty. They had to combine hard work, networking and luck.

Thanks! I am willing to do whatever it takes to become a dermatologist even if that involves me applying for post grad. research, but in the end, if i change my mind, that is also okay. Thanks for the tip. This was just something I thought about.

 

[j4pac]

Yes. It is more difficult though. It is incredibly difficult to become a Dermatologist as an MD as well. Everyone who wants to be rich and barely work goes for Dermatology. It is highly competitive and you have to be an elite med student of any facet to have a chance.

I think to go into medical school with the EXPECTATION to be a Dermatologist is a bit naïve.

 

[YDeeBY]

The vast majority of derm DOs trained at osteopathic programs, which may no longer exist when you are done with school.

So what do you think I should do to better my chances of becoming a Derm if I wanted to be one?

 

[YDeeBY]

Yes. It is more difficult though. It is incredibly difficult to become a Dermatologist as an MD as well. Everyone who wants to be rich and barely work goes for Dermatology. It is highly competitive and you have to be an elite med student of any facet to have a chance.

I think to go into medical school with the EXPECTATION to be a Dermatologist is a bit naïve.

I appreciate your advice on it but, I am not going into medical school expecting to be a dermatologist, but rather just asking the possibilities. Thank you.

 

[j4pac]

So what do you think I should do to better my chances of becoming a Derm?

Go to MD school. Be an elite MD applicant...land publications...get strong LORs...get 260+ on your boards...cure cancer while you're at it.

 

[deleted407021]

Thanks! I am willing to do whatever it takes to become a dermatologist even if that involves me applying for post grad. research.

I am not going into medical school expecting to be a dermatologist, but rather just asking the possibilities. I appreciate your advice on it. Thank you.

These two statements conflict.

Look at match lists for various MD and DO schools and see how many derm matches you see. Look up national match statistics to see the % matched vs applied, etc.

 

[j4pac]

These two statements conflict.

Look at match lists for various MD and DO schools and see how many derm matches you see. Look up national match statistics to see the % matched vs applied, etc.

Keep in mind that NRMP stats for Dermatology have significant selection bias. Joe Shmo DO who barely passed his COMLEX doesn't apply to Dermatology. People like to match to residency...the majority of people applying to Dermatology are MDs who are competitive for Dermatology. Otherwise everyone would apply...and the match rate would be like 1%.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Hello everyone!

Can I still become a successful Dermatologist with DO?

.7% of DOs and 1.7% of US MDs match into dermatology (slightly old figures and its possible that DO number might go down a bit with the merger) so its very unlikely to get derm and to a greater extent if your a DO. If you want to be a dermatologist your going to need to be a superstar. I would suggest going MD and it shouldn't be an issue getting into a MD school if you are the caliber of student that could get derm. If you were to go to DO schools I would recommend looking into DO programs with dermatology residency that are pre accreditated.

 

[YDeeBY]

.7% of DOs and 1.7% of US MDs match into dermatology (slightly old figures and its possible that DO number might go down a bit with the merger) so its very unlikely to get derm and to a greater extent if your a DO. If you want to be a dermatologist your going to need to be a superstar. I would suggest going MD and it shouldn't be an issue getting into a MD school if you are the caliber of student that could get derm. If you were to go to DO schools I would recommend looking into DO programs with dermatology residency that are pre accreditated.

Thanks!

 

[AlteredScale]

Path of least resistance for ENT, neurosurgery, vascular, plastics, derm, and academic IM is to pursue MD. As a DO you lock yourself out of a lot of these spots literally because of the letters after your last name and because a lot of DO schools don't offer the resources you need to beef your application up to par with other MD students. As a faculty member said here "its not fair but that's just how it is".

 

[FutureD0C17]

Path of least resistance for ENT, neurosurgery, vascular, plastics, derm, and academic IM is to pursue MD. As a DO you lock yourself out of a lot of these spots literally because of the letters after your last name and because a lot of DO schools don't offer the resources you need to beef your application up to par with other MD students. As a faculty member said here "its not fair but that's just how it is".

What I don't understand is why these resources aren't available considering that DO tuition is often 2x that of MD. It feels unethical to rape the students financially while not providing the opportunities for those who want to go above and beyond.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

What about GS and ortho after the AOAs disappear?

Path of least resistance for ENT, neurosurgery, vascular, plastics, derm, and academic IM is to pursue MD. As a DO you lock yourself out of a lot of these spots literally because of the letters after your last name and because a lot of DO schools don't offer the resources you need to beef your application up to par with other MD students. As a faculty member said here "its not fair but that's just how it is".

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

What I don't understand is why these resources aren't available considering that DO tuition is often 2x that of MD. It feels unethical to rape the students financially while not providing the opportunities for those who want to go above and beyond.

Me and my friend are both medical students in the same city. Me a DO student and my friend an MD student. My friend pays 10k more then I do. DO schools aren't 2x the price of MD schools. This is just false!

Most DO schools are 45-50 k with outliers (LECOM and Midwestern)

 

[DrMikeP]

What I don't understand is why these resources aren't available considering that DO tuition is often 2x that of MD. It feels unethical to rape the students financially while not providing the opportunities for those who want to go above and beyond.

Consider the goals stated by most DO schools. They openly tell you they want to train family practice docs to serve in rural or under served areas and many provide awesome experiences to go above and beyond in those areas. You have the choice to attend and pay what they charge or not and it's not like the DO schools are marketing themselves as "the" path to derm.

OP... If you are serious about any specialty/career, evaluate if it is the most wise move to purposefully make a choice that will put you at an automatic disadvantage. A DO right or wrong will put you at a disadvantage for Derm, Neurosurgery, etc. Why would you run a race and volunteer to start 10ft behind others?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

What about GS and ortho after the AOAs disappear?

No one knows. Check to see if AOA resendecies applied at schools your interested in. The well established schools will most likely still be fine. Long term I anticipate more parity.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Possible yes, (personally know a DO who did Derm residency at the Mayo clinic in MN) exceptionally unlikely. You literally have to have a perfect app if you want a chance.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Match Derm as a DO? Be the best of the best.
Match Derm as an MD? Be one of the best.

 

[Userneedmoreinfo]

Path of least resistance for ENT, neurosurgery, vascular, plastics, derm, and academic IM is to pursue MD. As a DO you lock yourself out of a lot of these spots literally because of the letters after your last name and because a lot of DO schools don't offer the resources you need to beef your application up to par with other MD students. As a faculty member said here "its not fair but that's just how it is".

Why do you think landing an academic IM is hard for a DO?
P.s. Take out top 10 Acgme sites?

 

[Brorthopedic]

The vast majority of derm DOs trained at osteopathic programs, which may no longer exist when you are done with school.

The vast majority of derm DOs trained at osteopathic programs, which are now disappearing.

A lot of people here are talking out of their ass, for example the guy I quoted. We can sit here all day and discuss the differences in percentages between MDs and DOs who apply to/are in dermatology but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. There are both MD and DO dermatologists everywhere. It's going to be difficult regardless of which degree you pursue. If you've got the caliber to become one, you will. If you don't, then you don't.

 

[AlteredScale]

Why do you think landing an academic IM is hard for a DO?
P.s. Take out top 10 Acgme sites?

EDIT: Sorry but I don't feel like making the long winded explanation as usual as I get a lot of crazies on my case for what I say.

Simply put, clinical training isn't something IM PD's can relate to. DO schools don't have that many research opps and can't pad their application to prove they can be productive in residency (which is highly emphasized at academic IM programs). Connections. Academic medicine is a small community and DO schools are far away from such a community (since most programs focus on primary care and working at community hospitals). At the end, there's still bias to having a DO in a program. Many IM PD's think it lowers the prestige. It's not right but that's just how it is now.

 

[Mad Jack]

So what do you think I should do to better my chances of becoming a Derm if I wanted to be one?

Do a postbacc and become an MD. And even then your chances of going derm aren't fantastic.

 

[Mad Jack]

A lot of people here are talking out of their ass, for example the guy I quoted. We can sit here all day and discuss the differences in percentages between MDs and DOs who apply to/are in dermatology but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. There are both MD and DO dermatologists everywhere. It's going to be difficult regardless of which degree you pursue. If you've got the caliber to become one, you will. If you don't, then you don't.

I've run the numbers in the past. Two years ago, even with AOA programs included, you were four times more likely to land a dermatology residency as an MD versus DO. Things are only going to get worse post-merger, given the substantially higher ACGME dermatology standards versus those of the AOA, which will likely lead to the closure of many DO derm programs (which are poorly regarded by ACGME programs, to say the least).

 

[gyngyn]

Hello everyone!

Can I still become a successful Dermatologist with DO?

In the last Match for which data are available 352 US seniors (MD) matched derm, 111 did not.
For independent applicants (DO and everybody else, including MD re-applicants and international), 51 matched and 79 did not. Mean USMLE scores for all applicants (even the unsuccessful ones) was quite high. See page 45: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf
I routinely see excellent students from well-recognized research powerhouses (even those with a productive year of derm research) not match in Derm.
I don't have stats for DO Derm programs, sorry.

 

[Brorthopedic]

I've run the numbers in the past. Two years ago, even with AOA programs included, you were four times more likely to land a dermatology residency as an MD versus DO. Things are only going to get worse post-merger, given the substantially higher ACGME dermatology standards versus those of the AOA, which will likely lead to the closure of many DO derm programs (which are poorly regarded by ACGME programs, to say the least).

Not sure why you posted that, nobody is arguing that fact that becoming a dermatologist is easier as an MD than a DO broski. OP asked if it's possible to become a successful dermatologist as a DO, the answer is yes period.

In fact, once we start arguing differences in matching percentages, we've already at least agreed that both degrees are eligible for the specialty and answered OP's question.

 

[Mad Jack]

Not sure why you posted that, nobody is arguing that fact that becoming a dermatologist is easier as an MD than a DO broski. OP asked if it's possible to become a successful dermatologist as a DO, the answer is yes period.

In fact, once we start arguing differences in matching percentages, we've already at least agreed that both degrees are eligible for the specialty and answered OP's question.

The overall point of my post was that, if you'd like to be a dermatologist, there will be roughly one dermatologist per DO school, per year. One. Way less than 1% of DOs will become dermatologists if half of AOA programs close. If you're cool with rolling those odds and dermatology is your goal, go for it. We can say, "Yes, it's possible." But we could also say, "Yes, you can go out and buy a Powerball ticket and win! It's possible!" Dermatology is not a very DO friendly specialty, I would strongly recommend anyone interested in it to go MD if they aren't a fan of massive disappointment.

 

[22031 Alum]

A lot of people here are talking out of their ass, for example the guy I quoted. We can sit here all day and discuss the differences in percentages between MDs and DOs who apply to/are in dermatology but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. There are both MD and DO dermatologists everywhere. It's going to be difficult regardless of which degree you pursue. If you've got the caliber to become one, you will. If you don't, then you don't.

This is faulty reasoning. The fact that matching in to Derm is hard for everyone, doesn't mean that one group doesn't have an additional disadvantage. Your statment "If you've got the caliber to become one, you will" is very likely to be flat-out false when you consider that an applicant from a DO school may be completely ignored by programs, in favor of MD applicants who actually have a "lesser" application, stats-wise. That's completely disregarding the fact that it's a lot less unlikely for an MD student to have a "lesser" application in the first place, when you look beyond simple test scores and take connections and research experience into account.

Anybody who already has their heart set on a competitive specialty needs to make their medical school decision with that in mind.

 

[Brorthopedic]

The overall point of my post was that, if you'd like to be a dermatologist, there will be roughly one dermatologist per DO school, per year. One. Way less than 1% of DOs will become dermatologists if half of AOA programs close. If you're cool with rolling those odds and dermatology is your goal, go for it. We can say, "Yes, it's possible." But we could also say, "Yes, you can go out and buy a Powerball ticket and win! It's possible!" Dermatology is not a very DO friendly specialty, I would strongly recommend anyone interested in it to go MD if they aren't a fan of massive disappointment.

Did you just equate the premise of a strong DO applicant matching Derm to winning a Powerball ticket?

One of these has an odds of happening of 1 in 292 million, that's .00000034% and is completely based on luck. The other is possible through hard work. You're better than that Jack, don't let your bias cloud your mind.

 

[22031 Alum]

Did you just equate the premise of a strong DO applicant matching Derm to winning a Powerball ticket?

One of these has an odds of happening of 1 in 292 million, that's .00000034% and is completely based on luck. The other is possible through hard work. You're better than that Jack, don't let your bias cloud your mind.

Don't be literal. @Mad Jack clearly never meant the odds were exactly the same. It's called using hyperbole and drawing parallels. If your advice is "Yeah, it's possible!" just because someone has done it, without taking into account that there are real disadvantages, you're not giving very good advice and are letting bias cloud your mind.

 

[Mad Jack]

Did you just equate the premise of a strong DO applicant matching Derm to winning a Powerball ticket?

One of these has an odds of happening of 1 in 292 million, that's .00000034% and is completely based on luck. The other is possible through hard work. You're better than that Jack, don't let your bias cloud your mind.

Guise, he doesn't understand hyperbole and thinks that a DO student has a serious bias toward MDs

Here's the thing- sometimes the answer someone needs is not the one that they want nor the one to the question that was asked. I was providing the answer the OP needed, which was not a direct answer to the question that they had asked, nor what they wanted. The best way for one to increase their chances of being a dermatologist is to go to an LCME accredited MD school, period.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Guise, he doesn't understand hyperbole and thinks that a DO student has a serious bias toward MDs

Here's the thing- sometimes the answer someone needs is not the one that they want nor the one to the question that was asked. I was providing the answer the OP needed, which was not a direct answer to the question that they had asked, nor what they wanted. The best way for one to increase their chances of being a dermatologist is to go to an LCME accredited MD school, period.

Agreed. If you're aiming for competitive specialties, you should most definitely try to attend an LCME accredited MD school. However, if you can't, your chances aren't null. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[Mad Jack]

Agreed. If you're aiming for competitive specialties, you should most definitely try to attend an LCME accredited MD school. However, if you can't, your chances aren't null. That's all I was trying to say.

And that's fair, but they're less than 1%, so... Way closer to null than reasonable.

 

[DrMikeP]

Anybody who already has their heart set on a competitive specialty needs to make their medical school decision with that in mind.

Such true statement. I'd even add undergrad school decision to that list for highly competitive specialties, as in reality there is a very narrow difference between the best of the best of the best, so if possible start off maximizing your chances.

Lots of passion from people who are arguing mostly the same point!

If DO is your only med school option and you want to do derm then work your ^*@$$ off and see what happens. You are the one who through hard work and capability will ultimately have the greatest influence on if you have a chance for a specialty.

 

[Goro]

There's a lot of good, realistic advice in this thread answering the OP's question. All prospective DO students lusting after a particular specialty should keep this rule of thumb in mind:

~2/3rds of DO grads go into Primary Care (defined as Family Practice, I.M. and Peds)
~25% of MD grads into Primary Care

So the odds are already favoring the MDs for any competitive specialty. And you know what? the AOA is perfectly OK with this. I'm OK with it! We need Primary care docs.

Can a DO be a dermatologist? Yes. Is it likely? No. But this also holds true for MDs. Competitive specialties are competitive for a reason, after all.

Interestingly, if you look at the "Specialty Choice" tab of MSAR Online, every MD school, from Albany to Yale, JAB to Harvard, only 4-5% of each graduating class go into General Surgery. Can our MD colleagues elaborate further on this? Does this mean only 5% of all med students want to be surgeons, or only 5% of them can be surgeons???

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There's a lot of good, realistic advice in this thread answering the OP's question. All prospective DO students lusting after a particular specialty should keep this rule of thumb in mind:

~2/3rds of DO grads go into Primary Care (defined as Family Practice, I.M. and Peds)
~25% of MD grads into Primary Care

So the odds are already favoring the MDs for any competitive specialty. And you know what? the AOA is perfectly OK with this. I'm OK with it! We need Primary care docs.

Can a DO be a dermatologist? Yes. Is it likely? No. But this also holds true for MDs. Competitive specialties are competitive for a reason, after all.

Interestingly, if you look at the "Specialty Choice" tab of MSAR Online, every MD school, from Albany to Yale, JAB to Harvard, only 4-5% of each graduating class go into General Surgery. Can our MD colleagues elaborate further on this? Does this mean only 5% of all med students want to be surgeons, or only 5% of them can be surgeons???

Having worked in an OR for the last year and a half I became curious and posed this same question to one of the general surgeons and he said that in the MD world it really isn't super competative and because the training is so rough only a few students want to pursue it. He said you really have to love it to go into it. This is just what he told me so it may not be standard across the board but it wouldn't surprise me. Oh he also mentioned that a lot of students who want to do surgery often pursue one of the subspecialties because they are better compensated.

He said that when he decided on gen surg (his whole family are doctors) that his family tried to talk him out of it and into something more "glamorous".

 

[Brorthopedic]

And that's fair, but they're less than 1%, so... Way closer to null than reasonable.

To be fair, it may be that less than 1% of an average DO class enters Dermatology; however, not everyone is interested in the specialty. Additionally, those that are interested in Dermatology, don't always have the step 1 score needed to pursue it. Thus, realistically, the chances are far greater than 1% for those applicants that have both the interest and scores to successfully match.

 

[Mad Jack]

To be fair, it may be that less than 1% of an average DO class enters Dermatology; however, not everyone is interested in the specialty. Additionally, those that are interested in Dermatology, don't always have the step 1 score needed to pursue it. Thus, realistically, the chances are far greater than 1% for those applicants that have both the interest and scores to successfully match.

Actually, many of us write off even trying specifically because we are DOs. At the cafeteria, we've played the game of "if they offered you a spot in X specialty, would you take it?" many times. No one has said no to derm, ever. It's a dream specialty.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Actually, many of us write off even trying specifically because we are DOs. At the cafeteria, we've played the game of "if they offered you a spot in X specialty, would you take it?" many times. No one has said no to derm, ever. It's a dream specialty.

Not to go off of a tangent here (nor is this directed towards you), but reading stuff like that upsets me sometimes. Do they write off trying to do their best in classes, boards, rotations, etc because down the line it won't matter since such specialties are "out of reach" anyways? People that follow this type of thinking are doing a disservice to themselves and their future patients. People, especially medical students, should always strive to do their best.

 

[deleted407021]

Actually, many of us write off even trying specifically because we are DOs. At the cafeteria, we've played the game of "if they offered you a spot in X specialty, would you take it?" many times. No one has said no to derm, ever. It's a dream specialty.

I don't find myself harboring a terrible abount of respect for dermatologists. I mean, I'm sure they don't care what J Senpai thinks, but I have trouble looking at them the same way I might look at a pediatric oncologist, at face value.

That said, it's interesting to read your post here. Do you think that the rigors of med school make students particularly creamy for derm, even if they have had or have other plans?

 

[Mad Jack]

Not to go off of a tangent here (nor is this directed towards you), but reading stuff like that upsets me sometimes. Do they write off trying to do their best in classes, boards, rotations, etc because down the line it won't matter since such specialties are "out of reach" anyways? People that follow this type of thinking are doing a disservice to themselves and their future patients. People, especially medical students, should always strive to do their best.

Realism upsets you? I mean, a lot of these people are interested in various competitive fields that are realistic for a DO to enter. Hell, one of them took a practice NBME exam and scored a 235 this weekend, and we've still got five months to the boards. But when you apply, you've got to structure your app realistically. No one in our school's history has ever matched MD derm, as far back as we've got data available. The DO deem programs are probably going to be gone, and three quarters of the people that shot for them in the past ended up stuck in a TRI. It doesn't matter how good your scores are- ACGME derm (which all programs will be by the time we're applying) is insanely competitive and requires a lot of things that many of us either don't have or can't realistically obtain (a PhD, top pubs, AOA, etc). So why throw your whole application at something that will most likely flop no matter how hard you try when you can realistically shoot for something else like ortho or ophtho? We're not beautiful and unique snowflakes- we're people. You will never be the best person in your field, nor will you be the smartest. In fact, you'll probably fall several rungs sort of being either. That's reality. There's always a bigger fish, so be realistic about your size when selecting which pond to inhabit.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't find myself harboring a terrible abount of respect for dermatologists. I mean, I'm sure they don't care what J Senpai thinks, but I have trouble looking at them the same way I might look at a pediatric oncologist, at face value.

That said, it's interesting to read your post here. Do you think that the rigors of med school make students particularly creamy for derm, even if they have had or have other plans?

Dermatologists are incredibly important physicians. Hell, I'm having what's very likely an early stage melanoma removed soon and I've had to wait months because there just aren't enough of them. Melanoma death rates have plummeted despite skyrocketing rates of skin cancer due to their hard work and advocacy. You'll never appreciate them until you need them, I guess. There's a lot of them in cosmetics and that kind of bugs me, but the real dermies out there do everything from helping to keep certain lessons from disfiguring people to improving the psychological health of their patients by helping them manage untreatable disfiguring or painful conditions, to straight up saving lives in the cases of skin cancer.

Now as to the why- money, lifestyle, patients that are happy to see you and that you can often actually help, procedures all day erryday, it's a field that's relatively insulated against the damage caused by the ACA, there's incredible demand, it's extremely difficult to be replaced by midlevels (despite what some might say, derm is a very intellectual and complicated field), and it's intellectually satisfying.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Realism upsets you? I mean, a lot of these people are interested in various competitive fields that are realistic for a DO to enter. Hell, one of them took a practice NBME exam and scored a 235 this weekend, and we've still got five months to the boards. But when you apply, you've got to structure your app realistically. No one in our school's history has ever matched MD derm, as far back as we've got data available. The DO deem programs are probably going to be gone, and three quarters of the people that shot for them in the past ended up stuck in a TRI. It doesn't matter how good your scores are- ACGME derm (which all programs will be by the time we're applying) is insanely competitive and requires a lot of things that many of us either don't have or can't realistically obtain (a PhD, top pubs, AOA, etc). So why throw your whole application at something that will most likely flop no matter how hard you try when you can realistically shoot for something else like ortho or ophtho? We're not beautiful and unique snowflakes- we're people. You will never be the best person in your field, nor will you be the smartest. In fact, you'll probably fall several rungs sort of being either. That's reality. There's always a bigger fish, so be realistic about your size when selecting which pond to inhabit.

I see where you're coming from, my point wasn't that one should apply to dermatology anyways and ignore the realities of life. It's that some people chose not to do their best solely on the reason that it won't matter down the line because they're not applying to a competitive specialty. It's not that realism upsets me, it's people selling themselves short.

If going into Dermatology means being the best of the best, everyone should aim to be a Dermatologist until you apply for the match so that regardless of the specialty, you're the best version of yourself. You know what I'm saying?

 

[DrMikeP]

Interestingly, if you look at the "Specialty Choice" tab of MSAR Online, every MD school, from Albany to Yale, JAB to Harvard, only 4-5% of each graduating class go into General Surgery. Can our MD colleagues elaborate further on this? Does this mean only 5% of all med students want to be surgeons, or only 5% of them can be surgeons???

From knowing a ton of surgeons (MD's and some DO's) and MD's/DO's in other specialties and looking at personality traits, a majority of DO's and a significant portion of MD's don't have a certain number of key personality traits consistent across highly successful surgeons. The personality traits seem pretty common across successful DO and MD surgeons. An example of one trait is a very high level of competitiveness (both internal and external) for surgeons. They fight to win even in a losing battle and struggle giving up even when they probably should. Where non-surgeons are often high on internal competitiveness but less high on external and often will more easily give up on life preservation in favor of quality.

So my guess is it that the personality of those choosing a DO by nature isn't as often surgery oriented, so they may be less inclined to do what it takes or fit into the traditional mold of surgeons. By the time specialty sorting comes around many who entered med school with the idea of becoming a surgeon decide it doesn't feel right for them. Then from that smaller slice of the pie, many MD's/DO's who might want to be surgeons just can't make it. Just a hypothesis.

 

[Mad Jack]

From knowing a ton of surgeons (MD's and some DO's) and MD's/DO's in other specialties and looking at personality traits, a majority of DO's and a significant portion of MD's don't have a certain number of key personality traits consistent across highly successful surgeons. The personality traits seem pretty common across successful DO and MD surgeons. An example of one trait is a very high level of competitiveness (both internal and external) for surgeons. They fight to win even in a losing battle and struggle giving up even when they probably should. Where non-surgeons are often high on internal competitiveness but less high on external and often will more easily give up on life preservation in favor of quality.

So my guess is it that the personality of those choosing a DO by nature isn't as often surgery oriented, so they may be less inclined to do what it takes or fit into the traditional mold of surgeons. By the time specialty sorting comes around many who entered med school with the idea of becoming a surgeon decide it doesn't feel right for them. Then from that smaller slice of the pie, many MD's/DO's who might want to be surgeons just can't make it. Just a hypothesis.

So you believe prioritizing quantity of life over quality of life makes one more successful?

 

[Mad Jack]

I see where you're coming from, my point wasn't that one should apply to dermatology anyways and ignore the realities of life. It's that some people chose not to do their best solely on the reason that it won't matter down the line because they're not applying to a competitive specialty. It's not that realism upsets me, it's people selling themselves short.

If going into Dermatology means being the best of the best, everyone should aim to be a Dermatologist until you apply for the match so that regardless of the specialty, you're the best version of yourself. You know what I'm saying?

No one here tries any less hard, but the simple fact is, even with perfect grades and scores, most people aren't getting into derm, so it isn't worth focusing your app on. The best you might very well not stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting into derm regardless of how hard you try because of the letters after your name and your school not having a derm residency that well survive the merger. That's just how it is brosephine.

 

[DrMikeP]

So you believe prioritizing quantity of life over quality of life makes one more successful?

Didn't say that whatsoever. Was giving an example of the trait of competitiveness that is common in highly successful surgeons. During surgery would you want someone who would fight harder than anyone else to save your life or not? Is that a measure of success? Perhaps or perhaps not, but I know of few surgeons who will let you die on the table even if that means you survive and have a lower QOL.

I am rating success based on surgical success percentages, incomes, various career measures, etc. that most surgeons I know use when they compare who has the larger boat.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The vast majority of derm DOs trained at osteopathic programs, which are now disappearing.

This. The reality of being a dermatologist as a DO in the current climate is close to zero, and even under the old system, you probably wouldn't want to. The majority of spots were glorified shadowing or required you to complete a family medicine residency beforehand. It's much better to spend a year on an SMP and a tutor for a great MCAT to go MD if your heart is set on dermatology. If you're going to DO not as a choice, chances are you're already not the type of student to perform at the level needed to match into one of the rare spots. In my class, the top scoring students all tend to be people that chose to go to DO over MD schools and had ridiculous apps like 3.8/35 entering school.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

To be fair, it may be that less than 1% of an average DO class enters Dermatology; however, not everyone is interested in the specialty. Additionally, those that are interested in Dermatology, don't always have the step 1 score needed to pursue it. Thus, realistically, the chances are far greater than 1% for those applicants that have both the interest and scores to successfully match.

The last sentence of this post is a pure defensive argument with no backup evidence from a biased DO student.