Can someone explain to me why this field isn't more popular?

[Robin-jay]

Here are some reasons I am absolutely baffled on why this field isn't more popular.

1. You are a physician - a top level healthcare provider

Even if MD/DOs or a few other people down on you because its not as "prestigious", it blows my mind that people are actually saying "MD/DO or change careers".

In the workplace, MD/DO/DPM seem to be treated as equals, or very close. It's not as though the DO is belching orders at the DPM. They are do their own thing and collaborate time from time.

2. The compensation - 200k a year as the median, with likely 250-300k if you are top half/top quarter of your class

That's an insanely nice perk on top of already being a physician and top level health care provider.

3. Tuition is comparable to MD/DO schools. The prices range, but seems reasonably competitive in terms of tuition prices between DPM and MD/DO schools.

4. The low competitiveness of the field vs. traditional medical schools is ridiculously low - You are guaranteed six-figures, to be a top-level healthcare provider, with GPA averages around 3.0. That's phenomenal.

It does not even make sense that PA's average 3.5 GPA, while Pods average around 3.2 or so. Makes no sense.

5. The perks of not having to take the Step 1, etc. to determine your specialty. Taking a pass/fail standardized test is lovely. Work hard in your classes, earn a good GPA, and climb the class ranks, and be competitive for podiatry top level specialties? Amazing.


Can someone bring me down to reality and tell me why podiatry isn't all that?

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[SpartanWolverine]

Are you a med student or no? Why did you choose medical school versus podiatry?

For me it's because I have no interest in feet, their biomechanics, the related pathophys, and procedures to treat foot and ankle conditions. I'm also not interested in FM or derm or ortho or path or anesthesia or nephrology, to name a few medical fields. However, because I went to medical school I had the option to pursue myriad options and eventually figure out that diagnostic radiology was the right field for me. If I had gone to a podiatry program my options would have been more limited.

So, my thought is that it's a great field for those people who know what they want. For those who are less decided and want broad options within medicine, however, medical school is hard to beat.

 

[Robin-jay]

Are you a med student or no? Why did you choose medical school versus podiatry?

You are right, I did interview at osteopathic medical schools.

Perhaps if I had interviewed at MD schools, I would see more pros. 60% of DO students end up in primary care. Primary care averages around 200k, with baseline around 185k. So considering podiatrists median is around 200k, with baeline around 165k, they seem extraordinarily comparable.

Top 10% make 325k+ a year.

And its essentially a specialty in foot and ankles vs primary care, and specializing is always seen as more desirable most of the time.

For me it's because I have no interest in feet, their biomechanics, and the related pathophys. I'm also not interested in FM or derm or ortho or path or anesthesia or nephrology, to name a few medical fields. However, because I went to medical school I had the option to pursue myriad options and eventually figure out that diagnostic radiology was the right field for me. If I had gone to a podiatry program my options would have been more limited.

I suppose so you have options, but so do podiatrists in some regard. Here's wiki:

• Reconstructive foot and ankle surgery (Consultant Podiatric Surgeon)[6]
• General Podiatric Physician
• Podiatric Medical Physician
• Podiatric Orthopedic
• Sports Medicine (Podiatric Sports Physicians)
• High Risk Wound Care[7]
• Podiatric Rheumatology[8][9]
• Neuro-podiatrist (Neurology)[7]
• Onco-podiatrist (Skin Cancers) or Podiatric Oncologist
• Podiatric Vascular Specialist
• Dermatological podiatrist
• Diagnostic Podoradiologist (Radiology)
• Gerontological podiatrist
• Diabetic limb salvage and wound care (Podiatric Diabetologist)[7]
• Podopaediatrics (the study of children's foot and ankle conditions)[10]
• Forensic Podiatry (the study of footprints, footwear, shoeprints and feet associated with crime scene investigations)

 

[GypsyHummus]

Because "ew feet"

 

[Robin-jay]

Because "ew feet"

What about "teeth"? Why is dentistry so desirable with same factors of "ew" behind it?

The reason that podiatry is so confusing, is because no matter what downside someone says about podiatry school, that same downside exists somewhere else in health care where those fields are blooming with applicants.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

You are right, I did interview at osteopathic medical schools.

Perhaps if I had interviewed at MD schools, I would see more pros. 60% of DO students end up in primary care. Primary care averages around 200k, with baseline around 185k. So considering podiatrists median is around 200k, with baeline around 165k, they seem extraordinarily comparable.

Top 10% make 325k+ a year.

And its essentially a specialty in foot and ankles vs primary care, and specializing is always seen as more desirable most of the time.




I suppose so you have options, but so do podiatrists in some regard. Here's wiki:

• Reconstructive foot and ankle surgery (Consultant Podiatric Surgeon)[6]
• General Podiatric Physician
• Podiatric Medical Physician
• Podiatric Orthopedic
• Sports Medicine (Podiatric Sports Physicians)
• High Risk Wound Care[7]
• Podiatric Rheumatology[8][9]
• Neuro-podiatrist (Neurology)[7]
• Onco-podiatrist (Skin Cancers) or Podiatric Oncologist
• Podiatric Vascular Specialist
• Dermatological podiatrist
• Diagnostic Podoradiologist (Radiology)
• Gerontological podiatrist
• Diabetic limb salvage and wound care (Podiatric Diabetologist)[7]
• Podopaediatrics (the study of children's foot and ankle conditions)[10]
• Forensic Podiatry (the study of footprints, footwear, shoeprints and feet associated with crime scene investigations)

Interesting to see all of those specialties. As you point out that '60% of DO students end up in primary care' I would also assume that the majority of DPM graduates end up in bread-and-butter podiatric practices and those specialty positions (e.g., rheum, neuro-pod, onco-pod, derm-pod, peds, etc.) are few and far between. Please correct me if that is wrong.

What about "teeth"? Why is dentistry so desirable with same factors of "ew" behind it?

The reason that podiatry is so confusing, is because no matter what downside someone says about podiatry school, that same downside exists somewhere else in health care where those fields are blooming with applicants.

Eh, I also don't see any appeal with dentistry. Again, I did my research and found out what appealed to me. I think there are people with back stories and/or legitimate reasons to go for DPM and DMD/DDS. What it boils down to, from my point of view, is that early specialization in a field isn't for everyone.

 

[Robin-jay]

Interesting to see all of those specialties. As you point out that '60% of DO students end up in primary care' I would also assume that the majority of DPM graduates end up in bread-and-butter podiatric practices and those specialty positions (e.g., rheum, neuro-pod, onco-pod, derm-pod, peds, etc.) are few and far between. Please correct me if that is wrong.

The thing is, being average in MD/DO school would make you top 10-20% in Pod score. So someone in DO school that had a 3.5 science and cumulative GPA and 500 MCAT, will be struggling for something past primary care.

However, if that same student entered podiatry score, they would be top 10-20% of their class starting out, and be competitive for the competitive podiatry specialties. So they could be making a solid 260k in something like neuro-podiatry vs 200-250k as a primary physician

Meaning, same effort would give you more options in podiatry school than DO school (MD maybe not so much since 66% specialize and make 300k+).

Eh, I also don't see any appeal with dentistry. Again, I did my research and found out what appealed to me. I think there are people with back stories and/or legitimate reasons to go for DPM and DMD/DDS. What it boils down to, from my point of view, is that early specialization in a field isn't for everyone.

What's surprisingly though, is that early specialization is almost for nobody. Look at the stats, 1,200 applicants for 600 seats in podiatry school with all the perks I just mentioned? Crazy.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Big reason between the competition of dental vs podiatry is that most people know of the existence of Dentists vs a pod.

1) there are simply more schools of dentistry than podiatry

2) Most people in their lifetime will go to a dentist. In fact, most people will go 2 times a year if it is covered by insurance. Not everyone will go to a podiatrist. So people grow up with dentistry as an idea.

3) Dentistry is more attractive to Pre-Health students who want to be a doctor. There is very little overlap of other professions vs a dentist, who else can do what a dentist does? Who else can do what a DPM can do?

4) Dentistry takes about half as much time to complete and will make around the same amount of money.

5) Health insurance vs dental insurance problems.

Podiatry offers a unique set of problems vs other physicians who go to medical school because of the limited license. This affects ODs and DDS, but lets just focus on MD and DO. If for any reason the area that the MD is at gets saturated, or they lose the ability to practice in their specialty, the MD can always do something else in medicine like sleep medicine, medical spa, weight loss clinic, nutrition, etc. Podiatry is very limited in what it can do.

What about "teeth"? Why is dentistry so desirable with same factors of "ew" behind it?

The reason that podiatry is so confusing, is because no matter what downside someone says about podiatry school, that same downside exists somewhere else in health care where those fields are blooming with applicants.

 

[Stagg737]

So considering podiatrists median is around 200k, with baeline around 165k, they seem extraordinarily comparable.

This is not accurate. Median podiatrist salary in the US is less than $150k. Yes, you can make much more, but most don't. Compare that to medicine where even the lowest paying field (peds) now has a median over $200k with several fields having medians well over double that mark, it becomes a much more obvious reason (at least on the financial side).

Plus there's the whole limitation of working with feet and ankles. Plus the prestige factor. Plus the fact that most pod schools are not associated with elite or well-regarded universities. Plus that fact that many pre-health students probably don't know anything about podiatry beyond "they do foot stuff" until college and it's not that hard to understand.

 

[Robin-jay]

This is not accurate. Median podiatrist salary in the US is less than $150k. Yes, you can make much more, but most don't. Compare that to medicine where even the lowest paying field (peds) now has a median over $200k with several fields having medians well over double that mark, it becomes a much more obvious reason (at least on the financial side).

Are these not accurate?

Salary for Physician - Podiatry

http://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/2017-2018-CIB_DIGITAL-FINAL.pdf (pg 19)

Plus there's the whole limitation of working with feet and ankles. Plus the prestige factor.

Yes, but this is such a poor reason on so many levels. I can't empathize with people who look at prestige to the point where having a DO would crush someone's soul because they are earning a DO.

Plus there's the whole limitation of working with feet and ankles.

Understandable, but many specialties, and highly sought after ones, deal with small areas of study.

Plus that fact that many pre-health students probably don't know anything about podiatry beyond "they do foot stuff" until college and it's not that hard to understand.

True, I had to go out of my way to learn about podiatry. That's a pretty legit reason.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

The thing is, being average in MD/DO school would make you top 10-20% in Pod score. So someone in DO school that had a 3.5 science and cumulative GPA and 500 MCAT, will be struggling for something past primary care.

However, if that same student entered podiatry score, they would be top 10-20% of their class starting out, and be competitive for the competitive podiatry specialties. So they could be making a solid 260k in something like neuro-podiatry vs 200-250k as a primary physician

Meaning, same effort would give you more options in podiatry school than DO school (MD maybe not so much since 66% specialize and make 300k+).



What's surprisingly though, is that early specialization is almost for nobody. Look at the stats, 1,200 applicants for 600 seats in podiatry school with all the perks I just mentioned? Crazy.

I generally disagree that medical specialties (beyond the top tier of competitiveness) are difficult for the average DO student. The 'average' DO student may also be genuinely interested in primary care.

You seem very focused on income numbers and I really have no way to verify what these various pod fields make. There's also massive variation in physician income depending on practice typice. Needless to say I'd happily make 200-400k if it meant a good lifestyle vs 400-800k and being miserable.

Anyhow, I don't disagree that podiatry is a great field for some people. As long as they do their work to learn about the field and have legitimate reasons to pursue it... that's great. We need passionate, effective podiatrists out there.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I think the median for pods out of residency is around the 140-150K mark, which is why on salary sites they list podiatrist averages at around 125K. Residents make a lot less.

I dont know why pods dont earn more money. Maybe because insurance doesnt pay out a lot for foot procedures? I know Pods have very light, if any, call, and most pods work 40-50 hour weeks when most practicing MDs I know work around 60.

This is not accurate. Median podiatrist salary in the US is less than $150k. Yes, you can make much more, but most don't. Compare that to medicine where even the lowest paying field (peds) now has a median over $200k with several fields having medians well over double that mark, it becomes a much more obvious reason (at least on the financial side).

Plus there's the whole limitation of working with feet and ankles. Plus the prestige factor. Plus the fact that most pod schools are not associated with elite or well-regarded universities. Plus that fact that many pre-health students probably don't know anything about podiatry beyond "they do foot stuff" until college and it's not that hard to understand.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Do you consider Podiatrists to be physicians?

I generally disagree that medical specialties (beyond the top tier of competitiveness) are difficult for the average DO student. The 'average' DO student may also be genuinely interested in primary care.

You seem very focused on income numbers and I really have no way to verify what these various pod fields make. There's also massive variation in physician income depending on practice typice. Needless to say I'd happily make 200-400k if it meant a good lifestyle vs 400-800k and being miserable.

Anyhow, I don't disagree that podiatry is a great field for some people. As long as they do their work to learn about the field and have legitimate reasons to pursue it... that's great. We need passionate, effective podiatrists out there.

 

[Robin-jay]

) there are simply more schools of dentistry than podiatry

Fair enough, I suppose thats a reason.

Most people in their lifetime will go to a dentist. In fact, most people will go 2 times a year if it is covered by insurance. Not everyone will go to a podiatrist. So people grow up with dentistry as an idea.

didn't think about this one. More people are exposed to dentistry. I have never been to a podiatrist for treatment.

Dentistry takes about half as much time to complete and will make around the same amount of money.

Out of state tuition for dentistry schools can be insane.

Health insurance vs dental insurance problems.

While true, I doubt most pre-meds, pre-dental students, etc. really take insurance difficulties into account when applying.

Podiatry offers a unique set of problems vs other physicians who go to medical school because of the limited license. This affects ODs and DDS, but lets just focus on MD and DO. If for any reason the area that the MD is at gets saturated, or they lose the ability to practice in their specialty, the MD can always do something else in medicine like sleep medicine, medical spa, weight loss clinic, nutrition, etc. Podiatry is very limited in what it can do.

All good points, but why do so many more competitive students try things like PA school vs podiatry? Its weird to me that a school that trains physicians isn't able to get as competitive students as nearly any PA schools.

 

[GypsyHummus]

PA is more competitive for the same reasons MD is more competitive except (comparing PA to MD):

less time
six figure salary for master's degree
more flexibility for switching specialties
Less time=less debt in most cases
less competitive (GPA around a 3.4-3.5 to get into for PA school. MD is 3.7-3.8)

The tradeoff being
PAs need more clincal hours
PAs dont have as that all important prestige premeds feed on

I think PA is a good field.

All good points, but why do so many more competitive students try things like PA school vs podiatry? Its weird to me that a school that trains physicians isn't able to get as competitive students as nearly any PA schools.

 

[Robin-jay]

I generally disagree that medical specialties (beyond the top tier of competitiveness) are difficult for the average DO student. The 'average' DO student may also be genuinely interested in primary care.

DO students are almost forced into primary care because many DO schools try to churn out primary care physicians. It's almost to the point where they discourage their students from specializing. If you were to say you were interested in specializing over primary care in a DO interview, consider yourself at a huge disadvantage for that acceptance.

Compared to MDs, DOs have an uphill battle to face when specializing.

You seem very focused on income numbers and I really have no way to verify what these various pod fields make.

I agree its difficult to know what pods make other than what the salaries show on various sites and using official podiatry school data. Which basically says the typical range is 165-265k, with a medical at 200k, with top 10% earners making 350k.

Anyhow, I don't disagree that podiatry is a great field for some people. As long as they do their work to learn about the field and have legitimate reasons to pursue it... that's great. We need passionate, effective podiatrists out there.

Sounds reasonable. Foot and ankle physicians are great.

 

[Robin-jay]

PA is more competitive for the same reasons MD is more competitive except (comparing PA to MD):

less time
six figure salary for master's degree
more flexibility for switching specialties
Less time=less debt in most cases
less competitive (GPA around a 3.4-3.5 to get into for PA school. MD is 3.7-3.8)

The tradeoff being
PAs need more clincal hours
PAs dont have as that all important prestige premeds feed on

I think PA is a good field.

I think PA is a tremendously great field too. I suppose its just weird to me that PA's choose mid-level careers over higher tier podiatric medical schools where they are top tier health care providers. But sure, maybe they just don't care about prestige. But even if that were try, it still blows my mind that DPM schools average a lower GPA still....

 

[GypsyHummus]

Its a 5 year difference (2 vs 7) for PA vs MD/DO/DPM. I know people who decided PA over MD school based on that reason. It takes a tremendous amount of willpower, money, and opportunity cost to be a "doctor".

If Pod schools were smart, they would lower tuition and advertise it. Most DPM programs are cheaper than DO schools, but not by much. Im talking tuition down to 20K/year, tops. Its too expensive to go get a DPM (300K+ if you go to the most expensive school), get the residency training, and then be stuck making 150K/year pre-tax.

Most pods are not making what you think. Take a look at some of the salary threads on SDN.

I think PA is a tremendously great field too. I suppose its just weird to me that PA's choose mid-level careers over higher tier podiatric medical schools where they are top tier health care providers. But sure, maybe they just don't care about prestige. But even if that were try, it still blows my mind that DPM schools average a lower GPA still....

 

[Weirdy]

I think PA is a tremendously great field too. I suppose its just weird to me that PA's choose mid-level careers over higher tier podiatric medical schools where they are top tier health care providers. But sure, maybe they just don't care about prestige. But even if that were try, it still blows my mind that DPM schools average a lower GPA still....

Competition and demand drives up stats.

Podiatric medical schools have neither in terms of applicants.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

The reason this field is not more popular than MD/DO programs is that the people in charge of this field are not doing enough to advertise it to the premeds. There are plans being made to tackle this through the APMA but only time will tell if it will work or not. The majority of students and hospitals/patients do not know the full scope of this profession and what a DPM can do. However, with the 3-year mandatory residency in place, this is beginning to change, at least in hospitals.

In other words, as this profession stands right now, there are a lot of IFs involved and getting into a specialty field with the same timeframe as md/do schools, is not something a premed might think about.

 

[Robin-jay]

Most pods are not making what you think. Take a look at some of the salary threads on SDN.

I know you've been around the pod game for a while. What would you say the average salary of a podiatrist is starting (1st year attending) vs. mid career (maybe 10 years after attending)?

 

[Weirdy]

I know you've been around the pod game for a while. What would you say the average salary of a podiatrist is starting (1st year attending) vs. mid career (maybe 10 years after attending)?

It is insanely variable.

There are people who take 70k offers and people who net 300k.

Go take a look at those threads as well as the attending/resident contract threads.

Do not comment. Just read through them.

 

[Robin-jay]

t is insanely variable.

There are people who take 70k offers and people who net 300k.

Whats the best way to optimize salary if its that variable?

 

[Weirdy]

Whats the best way to optimize salary if its that variable?

I am not there yet and neither are you so I cannot comment accurately.
I've heard a few things.

Years of experience. Quality of work. Networking. Mode of practice. Amount of money you bring into the practice/hospital. Willingness to move to different geographical locations where offers are better.

 

[Robin-jay]

Years of experience. Quality of work. Networking. Mode of practice. Amount of money you bring into the practice/hospital. Willingness to move to different geographical locations where offers are better.

Very fair. When they are talking about "undesirable" locations, are they talking mostly about suburban places in the midwest, or in the country sides of Arkansas, or where exactly?

 

[hematosis]

I spent a month rotating in family practice and all I can say is it was incredibly boring. I felt like all we did was screen patients and anytime something interesting or slightly complicated came up it would get referred to the appropriate specialist. I love what I do. Its nice to know that i'm the go to guy at our hospital for foot and ankle problems. Ortho refers patients to me. The surgeries are complex, fun and challenging. I am always learning.

As for the average salary ? who the hell knows. The numbers are all over the place for podiatry. I used the MGMA data to negotiate my salary. Here is a fact. I make more than our hospitalist, psych, ped, ID, geriatrics...im sure there's more but these are the ones i know for sure. Most of my friends who graduated from good residency programs all ended up making over 250k out of residency. But somewhere some poor schmuck is barley scraping by.

SDN is depressing when it comes to podiatry.

 

[Robin-jay]

I spent a month rotating in family practice and all I can say is it was incredibly boring. I felt like all we did was screen patients and anytime something interesting or slightly complicated came up it would get referred to the appropriate specialist. I love what I do. Its nice to know that i'm the go to guy at our hospital for foot and ankle problems. Ortho refers patients to me. The surgeries are complex, fun and challenging. I am always learning.

As for the average salary ? who the hell knows. The numbers are all over the place for podiatry. I used the MGMA data to negotiate my salary. Here is a fact. I make more than our hospitalist, psych, ped, ID, geriatrics...im sure there's more but these are the ones i know for sure. Most of my friends who graduated from good residency programs all ended up making over 250k out of residency. But somewhere some poor schmuck is barley scraping by.

SDN is depressing when it comes to podiatry.

Do you have to graduate highly ranked in your class for a salary that high? If one was ranked 75th in a class of 90, would a salary that high generally be an option due to less residency options?

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

DO students are almost forced into primary care because many DO schools try to churn out primary care physicians. It's almost to the point where they discourage their students from specializing. If you were to say you were interested in specializing over primary care in a DO interview, consider yourself at a huge disadvantage for that acceptance.

Why do people always say this. Not ALLLLL DO students match in FM or IM. There are plenty of other specialties that are DO friendly.
In the most recent match:
267 out of 296 applicants matched into Anesthesiology
10 out of 11 matched Child Neurology
115 out of 142 matched DR
457 out of 558 matched ER
67 out of 134 matched General Surgery
88 out of 97 matched Neuro

These are just a few examples so that everyone can stop saying the whole "youre DO so you are going into FM, IM, or Peds."

I think podiatry is a great field. I think what made me end up switching to DO is because I wasnt sure how I'd feel about surgery. I knew I wasnt crazy about the bread and butter of podiatry, so if I didnt end up enjoying surgery it'd be pretty miserable. On top of that, reimbursement rates for surgery are pretty bad. A dentist can do a crown in 1 hour and make 1000 while a foot surgery can take longer and be reimbursed half that amount. IN the end, DO just opens up more options for me, allowing me to go through 3rd year rotations and truly find out which specialty I enjoy and pursue it. I am not handcuffed to a specific trade right from the beginning, without knowing if I would really enjoy it. You can only tell so much from simply shadowing.

 

[UnDecided92]

Dude/dudette shadow some pods ideally doing things that you would like to do in a future practice and ask them these questions. A majority of answers on here are from pre-pod and pod students so ask some guys that are actually practicing now. Shadow docs that are relatively new (~5 years) and docs that are experienced and you will have wayyyy more accurate answers.

 

[de Ribas]

267 out of 296 applicants matched into Anesthesiology
10 out of 11 matched Child Neurology
115 out of 142 matched DR
457 out of 558 matched ER
67 out of 134 matched General Surgery
88 out of 97 matched Neuro

Are these numbers out of like 4-5K people?

I have looked at match lists for various DO schools for the last 5 years. That's a good indicator to look at. Mostly all matches fall into IM, FM, peds, ER and then Anesthesiology, and some psych. Some schools then have 1-3 people in Neurology and 1-5 or so in Orthopedics. The other specialties usually have 1-3 people matched. It means that you got to be at the very top to match into anything besides FM, IM, Peds, Psych or ER.

Going to a brand new school make that uphill battle even harder.

 

[de Ribas]

I spent a month rotating in family practice and all I can say is it was incredibly boring. I felt like all we did was screen patients and anytime something interesting or slightly complicated came up it would get referred to the appropriate specialist.

When I shadowed FM DO, I saw the same thing. I was bored for the most part and seemed like doctor was bored and stressed out too. Never seen him smile with patients. He ran from one patient room to another without even going to his desk for a while. Physicians often complain about paperwork, but for FM there is a ton of paperwork. Piles and piles of patient information sitting on his desk that he had to go through. Since you are FM, you are often getting new patients and you have to look over their medical records and put them into the system.

When I mentioned that on pre-MD form last year, I was told that it is not true and that FMs can do various procedures and even some surgeries. But that is just theory. They are trained to do many things, and unless you are in rural Dakota or Montana, you won't touch any instrument or perform any procedures.

I have shadowed for a full week of 40 hours and haven't see him do anything procedure wise. Once something more complicated comes up, they refer out. How interesting is that.

Prescription refill appointments are at least 20% of you patient population.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

When I shadowed FM DO, I saw the same thing. I was bored for the most part and seemed like doctor was bored and stressed out too. Never seen him smile with patients. He ran from one patient room to another without even going to his desk for a while. Physicians often complain about paperwork, but for FM there is a ton of paperwork. Piles and piles of patient information sitting on his desk that he had to go through. Since you are FM, you are often getting new patients and you have to look over their medical records and out them into the system.

When I mentioned that on pre-MD form last year, I was told that it is not true and that FMs can do various procedures and even some surgeries. But that is just theory. They are trained to do many things, and unless you are in rural Dakota or Montana, you won't touch any instrument or perform any procedures.

I have shadowed for a full week of 40 hours and haven't see him do anything procedure wise. Once something more complicated comes up, they refer out. How interesting is that.

Prescription refill appointments are at least 20% of you patient population.

All very true. I spent the last month in an outpatient FM office and the grind was just miserable. Double booked appointments every 15 minutes. Diabetes, hypertension, med refills. Chronic pain with people who will only take Norco or flip out at you when you even try to switch things around. Only the very occasional interesting or fulfilling patient. People infrequently have done their labs and often don't take meds as prescribed. Either way behind schedule or twiddling your thumbs because you've had four no-shows in a row. Yeah, the hours are fine and the money is decent, but it's definitely not something I'd want to deal with for 30 years.

 

[Stagg737]

Are these not accurate?

Not according to the federal government and Bureau of Labor Statistics, median for podiatry in 2017 was ~127k:

Podiatrists

Something to note is the hourly rate as opposed to annual salary. $71/hr is not a bad gig at all. That comes out to roughly $140k/yr working 40 hour weeks. It's part of why some fields (like psychiatry) look like they make so much less than other fields, because they don't work as many hours.

Understandable, but many specialties, and highly sought after ones, deal with small areas of study.

Yes, but options at the beginning of the journey matter. I never applied to pod school because I didn't want to limit myself to working exclusively with feet. When you start med school you have every option open. It's not until much later that those options get narrowed down. Not the same for pods, where you know from the beginning you're going to be exclusively working below the mid-calf.

I dont know why pods dont earn more money. Maybe because insurance doesnt pay out a lot for foot procedures?

Part of it is hours worked. Part of it is because almost anything they do could be done by other physicians (orthos, vascular, wound care specialists, neuro, ID for specialty stuff, FM and IM for basic/preventative stuff). The nice thing about having a pod is that they often take cases of lower acuity or less complexity from physicians or they take the complex cases on a single body part that other docs don't necessarily want to do other than a select few sub-specialists. In fields like ortho and vascular, there aren't many people who specifically want to specialize in the foot, but the ones that do make massive bank (think starting above $500k) because there are so few of them and they can demand those salaries.

DO students are almost forced into primary care because many DO schools try to churn out primary care physicians. It's almost to the point where they discourage their students from specializing. If you were to say you were interested in specializing over primary care in a DO interview, consider yourself at a huge disadvantage for that acceptance.

This is highly school dependent. My school encourages people to pursue what they want and I openly stated at my interview that I was open to all fields but was very heavily leaning towards ortho. A couple years ago we had 30 people match into gen surgery. The issue is that most highly competitive fields in the ACGME match aren't DO friendly and the AOA match always had far, far more PCP residency positions than specialty ones. So it's not that most DO schools are actively trying to prohibit their students from specializing, it's other surrounding factors that typically limit DOs more.

Whats the best way to optimize salary if its that variable?

Same way as in any medical/dental/health field. Be financially savvy, have a good business model/offer something unique if you're going to be employed, and work in an undesirable area. It's not rocket science, it's just that most med students either don't want to sacrifice location for money and/or they don't bother learning about the financial side of money for many reasons. I know PCPs clearing 400k/yr working 40-45 hour weeks because of the business model they use. I've also seen positions for surgeons barely clearing $300k with crappy schedules/expectations, and I'm sure some gen surgeons take those jobs because they don't know any better and don't argue about the money.

Imo this is the biggest shortfall of medical education in the US. Neither med schools nor residencies do a good job teaching their students/residents about the administrative/financial side of medicine, which is essential for people wanting to optimize their financial situation or even just work without being completely taken advantage of by their employers (which far too many physicians are).

Very fair. When they are talking about "undesirable" locations, are they talking mostly about suburban places in the midwest, or in the country sides of Arkansas, or where exactly?

Mainly the bolded. In some places salary literally doubles because the job is so far out into the boonies. Some of these positions are also available in cities where you'd server a populations of lower socioeconomic status where the hospital is just that much worse than the academic haven a few miles down the road and is desperate to have any physician taking the job. Those typically won't pay as well as jobs in the boonies though, as you can still live in a highly desirable city/suburb and just commute to work, which is harder to do than rural areas 4+ hours from the nearest major metro.

 

[Stagg737]

When I mentioned that on pre-MD form last year, I was told that it is not true and that FMs can do various procedures and even some surgeries. But that is just theory. They are trained to do many things, and unless you are in rural Dakota or Montana, you won't touch any instrument or perform any procedures.

This also depends on what you consider to be a "procedure". If it's something requiring anesthesia or a scalpel, probably not going to be doing those unless you're in the boonies. But FMs and general IMs can do plenty of procedures like debridements, mole/tag removal (got to use the big canister of nitrous several times on my FM rotation), catching babies, colonoscopies and EGDs (another thing I got to do often on my generalist IM rotation), draining abscesses, IUD insertion, pap smears, etc. These are all procedures and things I have seen FMs or outpt IM docs do (other than the scopes, performed by the general IM doc in a hospital). All within 45 minutes of a mid-sized city, so I'd say 'semi-rural' setting. They also made it sound like it was common for their colleagues to perform these procedures as well, and I was in a decent sized city for med school (~500k).

 

[Robin-jay]

Not according to the federal government and Bureau of Labor Statistics, median for podiatry in 2017 was ~127k:

Podiatrists

Something to note is the hourly rate as opposed to annual salary. $71/hr is not a bad gig at all. That comes out to roughly $140k/yr working 40 hour weeks. It's part of why some fields (like psychiatry) look like they make so much less than other fields, because they don't work as many hours.

I could be wrong, but doesn't the bureau of labor statistics include podiatric residents? I think that's the why the wages are so low for them.

This is highly school dependent. My school encourages people to pursue what they want and I openly stated at my interview that I was open to all fields but was very heavily leaning towards ortho. A couple years ago we had 30 people match into gen surgery. The issue is that most highly competitive fields in the ACGME match aren't DO friendly and the AOA match always had far, far more PCP residency positions than specialty ones. So it's not that most DO schools are actively trying to prohibit their students from specializing, it's other surrounding factors that typically limit DOs more.

I agree that DO interviews don't mind if you consider specializing, but if you were to say you "weren't" interested in primary care and mostly specializing, then kiss you chances goodbye. MD schools care much, much less about this.

Mainly the bolded. In some places salary literally doubles because the job is so far out into the boonies. Some of these positions are also available in cities where you'd server a populations of lower socioeconomic status where the hospital is just that much worse than the academic haven a few miles down the road and is desperate to have any physician taking the job. Those typically won't pay as well as jobs in the boonies though, as you can still live in a highly desirable city/suburb and just commute to work, which is harder to do than rural areas 4+ hours from the nearest major metro.

I don't mind working in more suburban or country areas. Don't know how far out of my way I'm willing to go, but I do think I have options there because I enjoy working in the country/suburban areas, although partying on the weekends in a city is always fun!

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Are these numbers out of like 4-5K people?

I have looked at match lists for various DO schools for the last 5 years. That's a good indicator to look at. Mostly all matches fall into IM, FM, peds, ER and then Anesthesiology, and some psych. Some schools then have 1-3 people in Neurology and 1-5 or so in Orthopedics. The other specialties usually have 1-3 people matched. It means that you got to be at the very top to match into anything besides FM, IM, Peds, Psych or ER.

Going to a brand new school make that uphill battle even harder.

No you don't have to be at the top of your class. PD surveys show that they mainly care about board score and 3rd year grades. It seems like lot of people that go to DO school do so in hopes of doing primary care, however the numbers that I posted show that those that wanted to pursue something else had decent chances at matching.

When I shadowed FM DO, I saw the same thing. I was bored for the most part and seemed like doctor was bored and stressed out too. Never seen him smile with patients. He ran from one patient room to another without even going to his desk for a while. Physicians often complain about paperwork, but for FM there is a ton of paperwork. Piles and piles of patient information sitting on his desk that he had to go through. Since you are FM, you are often getting new patients and you have to look over their medical records and put them into the system.

When I mentioned that on pre-MD form last year, I was told that it is not true and that FMs can do various procedures and even some surgeries. But that is just theory. They are trained to do many things, and unless you are in rural Dakota or Montana, you won't touch any instrument or perform any procedures.

I have shadowed for a full week of 40 hours and haven't see him do anything procedure wise. Once something more complicated comes up, they refer out. How interesting is that.

Prescription refill appointments are at least 20% of you patient population.

The worst of FM is similar to podiatry. Its easy to focus on the negatives of one specialty while touting the pros of another. There are FM docs I have shadowed that have worked like this, and there are FM docs that do direct primary care that do really well and enjoy their lifestyle. There are also pods I shadowed who were running from room to room, charting in between breaks, and clipping nails and dealing with corns and calluses all day. There are also pods I shadowed who were partners in a private practice and were living the dream. When people are trying to decide what to do they should focus on the law of averages for all the specialties. Of course, their MCAT score also makes a difference.

 

[Stagg737]

I could be wrong, but doesn't the bureau of labor statistics include podiatric residents? I think that's the why the wages are so low for them.

Sure, but if we break it down it doesn't make much difference:

There are ~15,000 practicing podiatrists in the US. Let's say 1,000 of them are currently residents (probably not far off considering there are only 9 podiatry schools in the country with a max first year enrollment around 650...).

At a median 127k/yr and 15k practicing pods, that's total income of $1.905 billion total income.

Take those 1,000 residents with a salary of ~50k and that's a total income of $50 mil.

That leaves us with 14,000 pods earning 1.855 billion for a median of $132,500. If we say it's 2,000 residents and 13,000 full pods the median is only increased to $138.8k. So even if that number includes residents, it shifts the median very little and is well below that $200k median of the lowest paying physician fields, and even below the BLS number of $192k/yr for physicians working in offices.

Yes, you can make much more than 150k as a podiatrist, but it also depends on what you're doing. Pods doing significant surgeries (amputations, vascular surg, etc) are going to be making a ton more than the outpt pod who is working with bunyons, callouses, warts, etc. It would be like comparing an FM doc to a neurosurgeon, which is where the massive variability in salary comes in.

Also, I've got nothing against pods. I fully consider them physicians and I work with them and appreciate everything they do and know. However it's a different path than MD/DO with very different options and different pay (both in terms of opportunity and realistic income).

 

[Robin-jay]

Didn't want to make a 7 year commitment right from the start

I always thought medicine in general was a commitment. In fact, I like the idea of commitment at the start of 7 years, because I like knowing what my future holds. I want to be decisive.

Didn't want to bust my butt in the pre-clinical years and worry about class rank etc.

What???? So you rather have your speciality almost entirely depend on a standardized test score (like step 1). That sounds awful in my opinion.

Scenario: Student does ortho research for years with several publications, stellar in classes, stellar in volunterring and clinical experience, stellar everything.

Takes Step 1, does primary care level performance, can't do ortho...

That happens all too often.

MD/DO pretty much offers a guaranteed 200k/year salary given you're flexible as opposed to Podiatry. The ROI didn't make sense to me. The income is all over the place and didn't want to gamble ~250k in tuition to be part of the Podiatry "movement" hoping hospital podiatry jobs becomes a norm in the future

I did more digging, and many midwest and southern states average 250k salaries, according to bureua labor of statistics.

If you work in Cali, be prepared for 120k a year salary.

Didn't want to worry about residency shortage if it ever comes back. MD/DO without residency is more valuable than a DPM without residency

With the amount of baby boomers needing health care these days (so much more foot care needed) there should be more podiatry schools opening up in the suture to help combat this situation.

I'm a guy who likes guarantees. Podiatry comes with a lot of IFs and question marks i didn't want to be a part of. I would be totally miserable if i was in Pod school obsessing about what kind of job i'm gonna get and when i'll be debt free. All of this while busting my butt trying to get a 4.0 in pod school. I'm not passionate enough about feet to go through it all.

The residency rates are amazing. I think 7 students out of 600 or so last year didn't get into residency in the entire country, and most of those 7, it was for personal reasons. So ya, even if your GPA is low, you still get residency.

On top of that, I love competing for GPA rather than standardized testing.

That's just one person's opinion. As usual, take whatever you read on this forum with a grain of salt and make a decision that works for you. I don't have anything against the field or anyone pursuing it. It just doesn't fit my needs.

I like you sharing! I'm just seeing the best anti-pod arguments out there, to see if its not all that. So far to me, it seems pretty good.

 

[Stagg737]

Are these numbers out of like 4-5K people?

I have looked at match lists for various DO schools for the last 5 years. That's a good indicator to look at. Mostly all matches fall into IM, FM, peds, ER and then Anesthesiology, and some psych. Some schools then have 1-3 people in Neurology and 1-5 or so in Orthopedics. The other specialties usually have 1-3 people matched. It means that you got to be at the very top to match into anything besides FM, IM, Peds, Psych or ER.

Going to a brand new school make that uphill battle even harder.

A lot of misinformation here that's already been addressed. One or two other things to point out though. Neurology is not a competitive field at all and is not to be confused with neurosurgery. Even on the MD side, most schools will only have 1-3 people match neurosurger and 1-5 match ortho, so this is not something unique to DO schools.

Match lists are also a terrible indicator as a whole other than some cursory things to gain once you're actually trying to match. Using it as a gauge as to whether to matriculate to a school is a poor decision as lists can vary wildly from year to year. This is a common mistake people make, and one I also made as a pre-med. There are a few valid things which can be gleaned from analyzing match lists, but these are typically not useful until one is applying for the match anyway.

 

[Robin-jay]

Sure, but if we break it down it doesn't make much difference:

There are ~15,000 practicing podiatrists in the US. Let's say 1,000 of them are currently residents (probably not far off considering there are only 9 podiatry schools in the country with a max first year enrollment around 650...).

At a median 127k/yr and 15k practicing pods, that's total income of $1.905 billion total income.

Take those 1,000 residents with a salary of ~50k and that's a total income of $50 mil.

That leaves us with 14,000 pods earning 1.855 billion for a median of $132,500. If we say it's 2,000 residents and 13,000 full pods the median is only increased to $138.8k. So even if that number includes residents, it shifts the median very little and is well below that $200k median of the lowest paying physician fields, and even below the BLS number of $192k/yr for physicians working in offices.

Yes, you can make much more than 150k as a podiatrist, but it also depends on what you're doing. Pods doing significant surgeries (amputations, vascular surg, etc) are going to be making a ton more than the outpt pod who is working with bunyons, callouses, warts, etc. It would be like comparing an FM doc to a neurosurgeon, which is where the massive variability in salary comes in.

Also, I've got nothing against pods. I fully consider them physicians and I work with them and appreciate everything they do and know. However it's a different path than MD/DO with very different options and different pay (both in terms of opportunity and realistic income).

All fair, but look at the distribution of mean per state. And this is with residents included (so maybe add 20-40k more to the means --I didn't do that here).

California has 112k mean average
Illinois has 192k mean average
Nebraska has a wopping 222k average.

So if you're willing to work in "fly-over states" and you are a full time, your average is roughly 210k-230k. If you want to work on the coasts for 100k, then that's their choice..

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I always thought medicine in general was a commitment. In fact, I like the idea of commitment at the start of 7 years, because I like knowing what my future holds. I want to be decisive.



What???? So you rather have your speciality almost entirely depend on a standardized test score (like step 1). That sounds awful in my opinion.

Scenario: Student does ortho research for years with several publications, stellar in classes, stellar in volunterring and clinical experience, stellar everything.

Takes Step 1, does primary care level performance, can't do ortho...

That happens all too often.



I did more digging, and many midwest and southern states average 250k salaries, according to bureua labor of statistics.

If you work in Cali, be prepared for 120k a year salary.



With the amount of baby boomers needing health care these days (so much more foot care needed) there should be more podiatry schools opening up in the suture to help combat this situation.



The residency rates are amazing. I think 7 students out of 600 or so last year didn't get into residency in the entire country, and most of those 7, it was for personal reasons. So ya, even if your GPA is low, you still get residency.

On top of that, I love competing for GPA rather than standardized testing.



I like you sharing! I'm just seeing the best anti-pod arguments out there, to see if its not all that. So far to me, it seems pretty good.

1. What happens if you do your rotations and find out you dont enjoy surgery..? You can only find out so much from shadowing
2. A standardized test score is better for leveling out the playing field. How do you compare someone who got a 3.5 from one school and a 3.0 from a completely different school with a different curriculum? A standardized test levels the students across the nation. And those that are pursuing ortho should do their homework and realize their entire future career hinges mainly on that Step 1 score and therefore they should take the necessary steps to ensure a competitive score. If that means easing through your 2nd year with a 3.0 ish GPA to study from board prep materials then do it.
3. Cali for any specialty is low, including podiatry.
4. Recent surveys have shown that visiting foot docs and taking care of foot issues are actually trending down. Its the same for dental visits. Less and less people are doing it.

I like podiatry as a profession. I was all ready to pursue it before receiving an acceptance earlier this year. Its a great profession, I only say what I say because I dont like when people prop up podiatry while pissing on DO/MD jobs with false arguments/facts.

 

[de Ribas]

But FMs and general IMs can do plenty of procedures

"Can do". I agree. They can and are trained, but not necessarily perform on a regular basis.

on my FM rotation

Yes, rotations and residency might have more of those so students and residents can get training.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

1. What happens if you do your rotations and find out you dont enjoy surgery..? You can only find out so much from shadowing
2. A standardized test score is better for leveling out the playing field. How do you compare someone who got a 3.5 from one school and a 3.0 from a completely different school with a different curriculum? A standardized test levels the students across the nation. And those that are pursuing ortho should do their homework and realize their entire future career hinges mainly on that Step 1 score and therefore they should take the necessary steps to ensure a competitive score. If that means easing through your 2nd year with a 3.0 ish GPA to study from board prep materials then do it.
3. Cali for any specialty is low, including podiatry.
4. Recent surveys have shown that visiting foot docs and taking care of foot issues are actually trending down. Its the same for dental visits. Less and less people are doing it.

I like podiatry as a profession. I was all ready to pursue it before receiving an acceptance earlier this year. Its a great profession, I only say what I say because I dont like when people prop up podiatry while pissing on DO/MD jobs with false arguments/facts.

You don't have to like or want to do surgery in order to be a successful DPM..you can just do the other non-surgical stuff. Although, anyone entering this profession should know that this is a medicine and surgical specialty, hence the PMSR designations for our residencies. However, not everyone graduating from these PMSR residencies will do surgery; because they don't have to..its all depends on what you're good at and what you're not.

GPAs/class rankings are just a part of the screening and acceptance process into clerkships and residencies. In addition to the APMLE's, how you perform during years 3 and 4 matters way more than gpa and class ranks. Also, the people with a GPA of 3.0 from school A (say it's more difficult to get an A here) vs those with a gpa of 3.5 from school b (where getting A is less difficult), will be equally screened, because the PDs know that school A has a competitive curriculum vs school b. I am not saying the curriculum differs this much between the 9 schools because they don't, just giving you an example. This is one of the advantages of having just 9 schools, people know people.

With obesity/diabetes/cardiovascular/cerebrovascular diseases on the rise, the need for foot care, eye care, heart, brain, teeth, etc, is much more now than before but if a patient decides to not do anything about their foot ulcer then too bad, there is nothing anyone can do about that, irrespective of the titles.

Post the links to the surveys if you can; congrats on the acceptance btw

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

You don't have to like or want to do surgery in order to be a successful DPM..you can just do the other non-surgical stuff. Although, anyone entering this profession should know that this is a medicine and surgical specialty, hence the PMSR designations for our residencies. However, not everyone graduating from these PMSR residencies will do surgery; because they don't have to..its all depends on what you're good at and what you're not.

GPAs/class rankings are just a part of the screening and acceptance process into clerkships and residencies. In addition to the APMLE's, how you perform during years 3 and 4 matters way more than gpa and class ranks. Also, the people with a GPA of 3.0 from school A (say it's more difficult to get an A here) vs those with a gpa of 3.5 from school b (where getting A is less difficult), will be equally screened, because the PDs know that school A has a competitive curriculum vs school b. I am not saying the curriculum differs this much between the 9 schools because they don't, just giving you an example. This is one of the advantages of having just 9 schools, people know people.

With obesity/diabetes/cardiovascular/cerebrovascular diseases on the rise, the need for foot care, eye care, heart, brain, teeth, etc, is much more now than before but if a patient decides to not do anything about their foot ulcer then too bad, there is nothing anyone can do about that, irrespective of the titles.

Post the links to the surveys if you can.

Just for some fun reading:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-Osteo.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-Seniors.pdf
https://www.apma.org/files/APMA2014TodaysPodiatristSurveyAllFindings.pdf

The first link is the match data for DOs
The 2nd is for MDs. The data will show that most MDs match into FM, ER, Peds, and OB as well. There are simply more residency positions in those areas.
The 3rd is the survey of Americans regarding their foot health.

 

[de Ribas]

I dont like when people prop up podiatry while pissing on DO/MD jobs with false arguments/facts.

I dont think that it is between pod and MD/DO. It is between DO and Pod. Maybe half of podiatry matriculants could get into some DO school if they had worked a little more on their apps and stats. If I had a chance, I would go to MD for sure. I just have doubts about DO. Whatever people say here, I often read about failed COMLEX and all sad stories on Med students-DO forum about failing coursework. In addition, let's be honest, being a DO has more limits than MD in many ways. Whatever people say that some specialties are DO friendly, 11 spots for child neurology and less than 100 spots for Neurology out of 7000 students or so, chances are close to 0 for an average student.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I dont think that it is between pod and MD/DO. It is between DO and Pod. Maybe half of podiatry matriculants could get into some DO school if they had worked a little more on their apps and stats. If I had a chance, I would go to MD for sure. I just have doubts about DO. Whatever people say here, I often read about failed COMLEX and all sad stories on Med students-DO forum about failing coursework. In addition, let's be honest, being a DO has more limits than MD in many ways. Whatever people say that some specialties are DO friendly, 11 spots for child neurology and less than 100 spots for Neurology out of 7000 students or so, chance are close to 0 for an average student.

There are people who have failed COMLEX who still match FM or IM. There is no difference with failing a board or coursework when it comes to DO vs Podiatry. And chances are not close to 0. Those specialties aren't popular. Neuro is not competitive for DO, even though its a fantastic field. The point is, you constantly say its FM, IM, or Peds when I just posted numbers showing that that isnt the case. The match rate for other specialties isnt close to 0. Even 50% of DOs who applied for general surgery matched. And this is with ACGME residencies. That doesn't take into account AOA residencies that have been accredited and will be participating in the NRMP match come 2020.

 

[Robin-jay]

1. What happens if you do your rotations and find out you dont enjoy surgery..? You can only find out so much from shadowing

Not all podiatrists are surgeons:

• Reconstructive foot and ankle surgery (Consultant Podiatric Surgeon)[6]
• General Podiatric Physician
• Podiatric Medical Physician
• Podiatric Orthopedic
• Sports Medicine (Podiatric Sports Physicians)
• High Risk Wound Care[7]
• Podiatric Rheumatology[8][9]
• Neuro-podiatrist (Neurology)[7]
• Onco-podiatrist (Skin Cancers) or Podiatric Oncologist
• Podiatric Vascular Specialist
• Dermatological podiatrist
• Diagnostic Podoradiologist (Radiology)
• Gerontological podiatrist
• Diabetic limb salvage and wound care (Podiatric Diabetologist)[7]
• Podopaediatrics (the study of children's foot and ankle conditions)[10]
• Forensic Podiatry (the study of footprints, footwear, shoeprints and feet associated with crime scene investigations)

A standardized test score is better for leveling out the playing field. How do you compare someone who got a 3.5 from one school and a 3.0 from a completely different school with a different curriculum? A standardized test levels the students across the nation. And those that are pursuing ortho should do their homework and realize their entire future career hinges mainly on that Step 1 score and therefore they should take the necessary steps to ensure a competitive score. If that means easing through your 2nd year with a 3.0 ish GPA to study from board prep materials then do it.

Even if standardized tests are better "equalizers", they don't fit my strengths. I'm much more confident in being top 10% of a podiatry class in terms of GPA than top 10% of a podiatry class in terms of the standardized tests.

It fits my strength.

Cali for any specialty is low, including podiatry.

Ya

Recent surveys have shown that visiting foot docs and taking care of foot issues are actually trending down. Its the same for dental visits. Less and less people are doing it.

I'm sure it will trend upwards again, as you can google projected upward trends in health care, especially feet, because of the population size for elderly citizens will increase substantially.

I like podiatry as a profession. I was all ready to pursue it before receiving an acceptance earlier this year. Its a great profession, I only say what I say because I dont like when people prop up podiatry while pissing on DO/MD jobs with false arguments/facts.

Reasonable discussion until here. No one is "pissing on" anything. No one is using "fake facts". Everyone seems to be fairly reasonable in this thread.

 

[Stagg737]

All fair, but look at the distribution of mean per state. And this is with residents included (so maybe add 20-40k more to the means --I didn't do that here).

California has 112k mean average
Illinois has 192k mean average
Nebraska has a wopping 222k average.

So if you're willing to work in "fly-over states" and you are a full time, your average is roughly 210k-230k. If you want to work on the coasts for 100k, then that's their choice..

Idk about CA or NE, but I know a few people in IL who would disagree with that number. My ex is a 3rd year pod resident now and she plans on taking a surgical position for ~170k next year, which she said was pretty typical. Maybe there's a massive pay jump later, but idk. This would actually shock me a bit if accurate as IL is one of the most poorly paid states for physicians in the midwest. Not necessarily saying the number is wrong, but they'd be surprised to find out they were that far below the median.

"Can do". I agree. They can and are trained, but not necessarily perform on a regular basis.


Yes, rotations and residency might have more of those so students and residents can get training.

My rotations where this happened were not at academic facilities and they were not during residency. They were my 3rd year rotations at community clinics and 1 hospital. These were practicing physicians with their own offices or offices associated with community hospitals performing these procedures. I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that FMs can't really do procedures because it's not really true. Most choose not to perform them for financial reasons (in the case where equipment can be expensive) or because they just don't want to (like gynecologic or derm procedures).

I dont think that it is between pod and MD/DO. It is between DO and Pod. Maybe half of podiatry matriculants could get into some DO school if they had worked a little more on their apps and stats. If I had a chance, I would go to MD for sure. I just have doubts about DO. Whatever people say here, I often read about failed COMLEX and all sad stories on Med students-DO forum about failing coursework. In addition, let's be honest, being a DO has more limits than MD in many ways. Whatever people say that some specialties are DO friendly, 11 spots for child neurology and less than 100 spots for Neurology out of 7000 students or so, chances are close to 0 for an average student.

There's a fair amount of catastrophizing here...

Look at the osteopathic charting the outcomes for 2018. Of the 66 DO students who applied exclusively to ACGME neurology (yes, only 66), only 2 didn't match neuro. So the statement that "omg, only 100 out of 7000 matched!" is pretty misleading. I only had 5 or 6 people in my whole class apply neuro, and they matched into some very strong programs. In terms of red flags, I failed a pre-clinical class in med school (DO) and had no problems getting interviews at solid academic programs and matched at my #1 (mid-tier academic) in psych. On the flip side I know MDs with 240 Step scores, no failed classes, and solid apps who went unmatched in my field and had SOAP into other fields. Yes, failing boards (Step or COMLEX) is a big deal, but it's not the end of the road for most students, it just further limits their options.

I am NOT saying that there aren't advantages to going MD over DO, but it seems like you're extrapolating from individual situations and creating an unnecessary fear for yourself that I don't believe is justified based on the current data. I think it is fair to say that there are plenty of podiatrists who could have gone DO (or MD for that matter) but chose not to, I just don't really see the relevance of that here or the comment which was being responded to.

 

[Robin-jay]

Idk about CA or NE, but I know a few people in IL who would disagree with that number. My ex is a 3rd year pod resident now and she plans on taking a surgical position for ~170k next year, which she said was pretty typical. Maybe there's a massive pay jump later, but idk. This would actually shock me a bit if accurate as IL is one of the most poorly paid states for physicians in the midwest. Not necessarily saying the number is wrong, but they'd be surprised to find out they were that far below the median.

Considering the Bureau is even low-balling due to resident podiatrists, I would suspect that there are massive pay increases from 170k to more later on.

 

[med2345]

It’s amazing people are still using BLS for pod salaries when MGMA average is 261 for general and 283 for surgical. Go look at the BLS for any specialty in medicine it is low. For dentists it something around 150 yet we were talking about how much better they are reimbursed than pods.

Every survey is from 180-280k average including the AMPA student handbook you can google it.

BLS includes residents and is based off of taxable income where physicians can write off income as costs. Look at actual surveys.

Considering the Bureau is even low-balling due to resident podiatrists, I would suspect that there are massive pay increases from 170k to more later on.