Cardiology as a DO after the merger?

Started by papito22
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papito22

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I was wondering if getting into a good cards fellowship will be slightly easier as a DO after the merger. I've already searched the forums and found some older threads. I know that getting a cards fellowship depends on where you do your IM residency and that it's better to get into a mid/high tier residency.

I'm pretty competitive for DO schools and somewhat competitive for my in state MD schools. I like primary care, but as you all know, things can change in med school. I've always been interested in cardiology - specifically peds cardiology.

There is a particular DO school that I'm very fond of and I think I'd be pretty happy there, but if I also have an acceptance from a new/very young MD school would it be more wise to go MD in case I decide to specialize?

I know that it's possible to specialize as a DO. I'm not looking for this to be an MD vs. DO thing, but I just want to know if getting into a competitive IM residency and then cardiology fellowship is possible as a DO considering the residencies will all be merging in the future.
 
It really depends on what you are looking for. If it's to be a practicing pediatric cardiologist then either route (MD or DO) is doable, perhaps a bit easier MD since it'll open up some doors that DOs have trouble getting into (top tier IM specialties that'll lead you into cards)

If you're gunning to also be a professor/PI and see basic science research as a big part of your career then taking the MD would be wise (for having strong research resources) but again, if this DO school has strong research behind it already ( MSU, OSU, OU, tcom) then you could do just as well going DO.
 
AlteredScale said:
It really depends on what you are looking for. If it's to be a practicing pediatric cardiologist then either route (MD or DO) is doable, perhaps a bit easier MD since it'll open up some doors that DOs have trouble getting into (top tier IM specialties that'll lead you into cards)

If you're gunning to also be a professor/PI and see basic science research as a big part of your career then taking the MD would be wise (for having strong research resources) but again, if this DO school has strong research behind it already ( MSU, OSU, OU, tcom) then you could do just as well going DO.
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Yeah, my goal would be to be a practicing non-invasive peds cardiologist. MSU is actually the DO school I'm looking at. I'm not that fond of research, but is it necessary to become a cardiologist?
 
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papito22 said:
Yeah, my goal would be to be a practicing non-invasive peds cardiologist. MSU is actually the DO school I'm looking at. I'm not that fond of research, but is it necessary to become a cardiologist?
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MSU is a very strong school with spectacular resources for research.

No you don't need research to be a cardiologist. It's just more "necessary" should you decided to become one who enters the academic track.

Some cardiology fellowships will look to see if you have some sort of research during residency (clinical or basic)...the emphasis made on research depends on the fellowship location to and whether it's a university program or community hospital program

What MD school are you comparing MSU to?
 
AlteredScale said:
MSU is a very strong school with spectacular resources for research.

No you don't need research to be a cardiologist. It's just more "necessary" should you decided to become one who enters the academic track.

Some cardiology fellowships will look to see if you have some sort of research during residency (clinical or basic)...the emphasis made on research depends on the fellowship location to and whether it's a university program or community hospital program

What MD school are you comparing MSU to?
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I was comparing it to Central Michigan, MSU CHM, Western Michigan, and possibly Wayne State or Oakland. Not sure if I'm competitive enough for the last two. I really like MSUCOM because of the curriculum and the location of the satellite campuses (I don't necessarily want to be at the lansing campus). I've also heard they have a great support system for student which I think it's important. The little things, ya know?

Mad Jack said:
MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD

Depending on where you choose to start reading that, I'm either telling you to get diabeetus, become a dentist, or become an MD. None of those options involve going DO. Don't do it. Go MD if you can.
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Lol you dislike DO that much? Even if the DO school is a better fit and I feel that I'd be more successful there? Is a brand new MD school that hasn't even graduated a class that much better than one of the best DO schools in the country which also happens to be attached to a major university? These are serious questions for me. I'm just a pre-med lol
 
papito22 said:
I was comparing it to Central Michigan, MSU CHM, Western Michigan, and possibly Wayne State or Oakland. Not sure if I'm competitive enough for the last two. I really like MSUCOM because of the curriculum and the location of the satellite campuses (I don't necessarily want to be at the lansing campus). I've also heard they have a great support system for student which I think it's important. The little things, ya know?



Lol you dislike DO that much? Even if the DO school is a better fit and I feel that I'd be more successful there? Is a brand new MD school that hasn't even graduated a class that much better than one of the best DO schools in the country which also happens to be attached to a major university? These are serious questions for me. I'm just a pre-med lol
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If you get into CHM, Wayne, or Oakland then I would take it and run. There's a lot of resources for all those schools that surpass most of the DO schools. If it's Western and Central Michigan you get into I would def consider MSUCOM because it's much more well established


Mad jack is a DO student. He's stating you can never go wrong at an MD school where at a DO you are closing some potential doors to very prestigious residency programs (Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, UCSF, Stanford).
 
papito22 said:
I was comparing it to Central Michigan, MSU CHM, Western Michigan, and possibly Wayne State or Oakland. Not sure if I'm competitive enough for the last two. I really like MSUCOM because of the curriculum and the location of the satellite campuses (I don't necessarily want to be at the lansing campus). I've also heard they have a great support system for student which I think it's important. The little things, ya know?



Lol you dislike DO that much? Even if the DO school is a better fit and I feel that I'd be more successful there? Is a brand new MD school that hasn't even graduated a class that much better than one of the best DO schools in the country which also happens to be attached to a major university? These are serious questions for me. I'm just a pre-med lol
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I am a DO student. I don't dislike DOs or the DO path. But if you want to be a specialist, you are far more likely to have your options substantially broadened by going MD. As an MD student, you can go anywhere in the country, even from the newest, lowest ranked MD school. Your app will always receive consideration with the right scores. DO? There's a good third of programs that won't even look at your app, and many of the rest will hold you to a higher standard than your MD counterparts. Also keep in mind that your interest in field might very well change down the line, and the doors you might see yourself leaning toward might be all but closed to you at worst and a serious uphill climb at best by virtue of the two little letters after your name. Choose wisely.
 
Oh, and that's aside from not having to deal with all the extra licensing BS, the time you have to sink into OMM, etc that you'll have to deal with at a DO school. It sounds like it's not a big deal, but trust me, it's a total pain and a lot of extra hoops that you don't want to jump through if you don't need to.
 
AlteredScale said:
If you get into CHM, Wayne, or Oakland then I would take it and run. There's a lot of resources for all those schools that surpass most of the DO schools. If it's Western and Central Michigan you get into I would def consider MSUCOM because it's much more well established


Mad jack is a DO student. He's stating you can never go wrong at an MD school where at a DO you are closing some potential doors to very prestigious residency programs (Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, UCSF, Stanford).
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Mad Jack said:
Oh, and that's aside from not having to deal with all the extra licensing BS, the time you have to sink into OMM, etc that you'll have to deal with at a DO school. It sounds like it's not a big deal, but trust me, it's a total pain and a lot of extra hoops that you don't want to jump through if you don't need to.
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Thank you both so much for your expertise! I was pretty much already planning on taking and MD acceptance to CHM or Wayne over MSUCOM, but I just wanted to see what people thought about Central or Western over MSUCOM. The first step is actually getting into those schools though haha
 
cliquesh said:
Cardiology and pediatric cardiology seem different in terms of difficulty for DOs. In 2014, 44 DOs matched acgme cardiology and 3 matched pediatric cardiology. Seems like you'd be much better off as an MD if you want to do peds cardiology.
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Wouldn't it be fair to say that perhaps it is self selection (ie how many applied? 4 or 20?)? EM, Neo, and PICU seem to be the hot spots for peds DOs who go into fellowships and DOs often get into top notch fellowships in said fields. If you peruse what peds attendings say on here you can gleam that in the peds world-- if you want it then you'll get it --. Maybe this doesn't apply to peds cards? I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject.

I know @J-Rad is a peds cardiologist (I'm fairly certain he is a DO as well). Perhaps he could shed some light on the topic for us.
 
Mad Jack said:
Oh, and that's aside from not having to deal with all the extra licensing BS, the time you have to sink into OMM, etc that you'll have to deal with at a DO school. It sounds like it's not a big deal, but trust me, it's a total pain and a lot of extra hoops that you don't want to jump through if you don't need to.
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What's the "extra licensing BS" ?
 
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67552931811 said:
Wouldn't it be fair to say that perhaps it is self selection (ie how many applied? 4 or 20?)? EM, Neo, and PICU seem to be the hot spots for peds DOs who go into fellowships and DOs often get into top notch fellowships in said fields. If you peruse what peds attendings say on here you can gleam that in the peds world-- if you want it then you'll get it --. Maybe this doesn't apply to peds cards? I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject.

I know @J-Rad is a peds cardiologist (I'm fairly certain he is a DO as well). Perhaps he could shed some light on the topic for us.
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That's could totally be true. I don't know much about peds and you probably know more than me. I just look at nrmp reports. According to the 2014 nrmp fellowship report, 75.2% of the pediatric cardiology fellowship spots were filled with USMDs making it the 3rd most USMD populated fellowship in pediatrics. Furthermore, DOs made up 2.3% of those who matched pediatric cardiology, which was tied with pediatric infectious disease for the second fewest DO grads per available fellowship spot; pediatric nephrology had 0 DOs match in 2014, but only 60% of the pediatric nephrology spots were filled with USMD grads. Based on those numbers it seems like pediatric cardiology is relatively popular amongst MDs grads and very few DO grads match pediatric cardiology. However, like you said, it could have just been self selection.
 
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If you have already done a search, then you already know the answer. The conversation of being a DO specialist has been beaten to death. If having the title of "MD" is important to you, go to and MD school. For most students, your degree won't have a huge impact on what residency you can get. If you want to do academic medicine or match at Hopkins, that might be a different story. But like I said, Osteopathic students and MD students can all match specialties. All that really matters in my opinion is your board score.

That being said, there will be lessBS to deal with at MD schools. OMM labs for me are annoying and pointless. Taking COMLEX and USMLE is also annoying. Explaining what DO means is also annoying. Answering thread questions on SDN that have been answered a million times is also very very annoying. Go to school where you will be happy. If you can get into MD school, then go. If not, it really doesn't matter anymore.

Worry about this when you actually get into school...or after you get your board scores back...and you do a rotation.
 
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I understand it's good to have goals in mind, but I'd always say it's wise to get into school and do well before you start trying to make decisions on where you're going to do your residency and fellowship. One step at a time. A lot can change in four years.
 
LearnTheHeart said:
I am a DO and went to Loyola for residency then cardiology fellowship. It is best just to do a residency where there is also a cardiology fellowship, then work your butt off to get into fellowship at the same place. Regardless of MD/DO. The only places DOs still have a hard time getting into are some big academic places. I scored 250+ on USMLE step 1, published research, and rotated at Northwestern, and their IM program would not even grant me an interview...
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As the above illustrates, it is often an easier path coming from the MD side of things. I suspect that if Dr. Lome had come from an MD school, he would have had the chance to match to a very strong IM program with a 250+ which also would have opened different opportunities for fellowship. This is not to say that he would not have chosen Loyola but it is nice to have options open to make the choice yourself than have the choice made for you.
 
I have another big question for the informed posters here.

Does it matter which DO school you go to between DO schools? I understand that getting a dermatology residency or plastic surgery residency as a DO is not going to happen.

But what about cardiology, neurosurgery, general surgery, orthopedic surgery?

Does it matter if I go to DMU to do this or is LECOM fine?

Or is the only differentiation here between going to a MD school or a DO school?
 
Gandyy said:
I have another big question for the informed posters here.

Does it matter which DO school you go to between DO schools? I understand that getting a dermatology residency or plastic surgery residency as a DO is not going to happen.

But what about cardiology, neurosurgery, general surgery, orthopedic surgery?

Does it matter if I go to DMU to do this or is LECOM fine?

Or is the only differentiation here between going to a MD school or a DO school?
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Though I haven't started first year quite yet from the consensus I have gathered from current students and residents, the school matters far less than 1) where you feel you can be most successful and 2) how hard you're willing to work to kill your boards and do well on rotations. I think either DMU or LECOM would be fine.

Edit: I think LECOM matched a student into NY Pres for EM this past year, didn't they?
 
osteohack10 said:
Though I haven't started first year quite yet from the consensus I have gathered from current students and residents, the school matters far less than 1) where you feel you can be most successful and 2) how hard you're willing to work to kill your boards and do well on rotations. I think either DMU or LECOM would be fine.

Edit: I think LECOM matched a student into NY Pres for EM this past year, didn't they?
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I see.

Anyone else have input on this issue?
 
Gandyy said:
I have another big question for the informed posters here.

Does it matter which DO school you go to between DO schools? I understand that getting a dermatology residency or plastic surgery residency as a DO is not going to happen.

But what about cardiology, neurosurgery, general surgery, orthopedic surgery?

Does it matter if I go to DMU to do this or is LECOM fine?

Or is the only differentiation here between going to a MD school or a DO school?
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Cardio is a fellowship, so your residency is going to be judged over your medical school.

Only advantage one school over another may have is local reputation or a PD that has worked with alumni of an institution, but that's pretty much negligible. Just choose the right school for you.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Cardio is a fellowship, so your residency is going to be judged over your medical school.

Only advantage one school over another may have is local reputation or a PD that has worked with alumni of an institution, but that's pretty much negligible. Just choose the right school for you.
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How about getting into a better internal medicine residency?

Still doesnt really matter then?
 
I know N=1, but I work at an academic medical center that is historically one of the most DO unfriendly places in the country. The PD I work for is the head of a fellowship program that is, again, very DO unfriendly. This PD took his first DO in our new batch of fellows this year, and according to him - he would take more DO's if it were possible, but most DO's are typically underqualified. Our program requires a heavy block of bench research, and it is imperative you can hit the ground running in that respect.

I don't think the DO degree in and of itself is the limiting factor everyone believes it is. If a DO goes out of his/her way to find and get involved in quality research early on, they will do just fine in whatever specialty they choose.
 
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IsWhat said:
I know N=1, but I work at an academic medical center that is historically one of the most DO unfriendly places in the country. The PD I work for is the head of a fellowship program that is, again, very DO unfriendly. This PD took his first DO in our new batch of fellows this year, and according to him - he would take more DO's if it were possible, but most DO's are typically underqualified. Our program requires a heavy block of bench research, and it is imperative you can hit the ground running in that respect.

I don't think the DO degree in and of itself is the limiting factor everyone believes it is. If a DO goes out of his/her way to find and get involved in quality research early on, they will do just fine in whatever specialty they choose.
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This is exactly what I've been told too. Not by a DO but by a MD who had residents work under him who were DOs.
 
I'm going to go against the crowd here and say that none of the IM or Ped fellowships are competitive, at least not in the same sense as in matching competitive residencies (Derm, Ortho, ENT, Uro, Ophth, RadOnc, Integrated surgery). Just look at the NRMP report. You will realize that more than 40% of the adult cardio and 24% of the peds cardio positions were filled by IMGs/FMGs. Compare that to the truly competitive residencies such as Ortho and Derm (less than 2%) and ENT (0%).
 
Postictal Raiden said:
I'm going to go against the crowd here and say that none of the IM or Ped fellowships are competitive, at least not in the same sense as in matching competitive residencies (Derm, Ortho, ENT, Uro, Ophth, RadOnc, Integrated surgery). Just look at the NRMP report. You will realize that more than 40% of the adult cardio and 24% of the peds cardio positions were filled by IMGs/FMGs. Compare that to the truly competitive residencies such as Ortho and Derm (less than 2%) and ENT (0%).
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Well Ive heard from many that there are many many tiers of Internal Medicine residencys... Like there are apparently many IM residency's that only IVY league med school grads can get.

And as albinoDO above says, what fellowships you may get depend on your IM residency.
 
Gandyy said:
Well Ive heard from many that there are many many tiers of Internal Medicine residencys... Like there are apparently many IM residency's that only IVY league med school grads can get.

And as albinoDO above says, what fellowships you may get depend on your IM residency.
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In terms of quality, yes, but Ibn Alnafis has a point in that you can probably match "somewhere" without a problem. An average DO student can easily match a mid-tier IM residency, so he/she shouldn't worry about being able to match a fellowship.
 
Gandyy said:
Well Ive heard from many that there are many many tiers of Internal Medicine residencys... Like there are apparently many IM residency's that only IVY league med school grads can get.

And as albinoDO above says, what fellowships you may get depend on your IM residency.
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I'm very sure that getting a specific cardio fellowship spot at a big name facility is going to be very competitive if not impossible for most applicants. However, if you are flexible and welling to take any opportunity you get, then I don't see how matching cardio fellowship somewhere would be competitive. As I mentioned, nearly half the spots were filled by non-US seniors. These 300 something positions that were filled by FMGs and IMGs could have easily been filled by American grads, MDs and DOs.
 
IsWhat said:
I know N=1, but I work at an academic medical center that is historically one of the most DO unfriendly places in the country. The PD I work for is the head of a fellowship program that is, again, very DO unfriendly. This PD took his first DO in our new batch of fellows this year, and according to him - he would take more DO's if it were possible, but most DO's are typically underqualified. Our program requires a heavy block of bench research, and it is imperative you can hit the ground running in that respect.

I don't think the DO degree in and of itself is the limiting factor everyone believes it is. If a DO goes out of his/her way to find and get involved in quality research early on, they will do just fine in whatever specialty they choose.
Click to expand...

Make that n=2, I've spoken to a few PDs and APDs at a competitive university medical center on the west coast and they've essentially said the same thing: it's no longer about DOs just being inferior via degree bias, it's the fact that many high level programs are looking for outstanding scholarly activity in addition to a superior academic track record in medical school. Most DO medical schools just don't have the faculty capacity nor NIH/other research funding to pump out research like our MD counterparts. The thing I've always wondered is, if DO programs are focused on producing primary care physicians, then would there ever be an incentive to increase the research side of osteopathic medical schools at the top of the DO chain a la COCA or AOA? I'd like to hope so.
 
AlteredScale said:
Make that n=2, I've spoken to a few PDs and APDs at a competitive university medical center on the west coast and they've essentially said the same thing: it's no longer about DOs just being inferior via degree bias, it's the fact that many high level programs are looking for outstanding scholarly activity in addition to a superior academic track record in medical school. Most DO medical schools just don't have the faculty capacity nor NIH/other research funding to pump out research like our MD counterparts. The thing I've always wondered is, if DO programs are focused on producing primary care physicians, then would there ever be an incentive to increase the research side of osteopathic medical schools at the top of the DO chain a la COCA or AOA? I'd like to hope so.
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I doubt that we will, but I hope I'm wrong. Top DO schools are using their resources to open their allopathic counterparts. :arghh:
IsWhat said:
I don't think the DO degree in and of itself is the limiting factor everyone believes it is. If a DO goes out of his/her way to find and get involved in quality research early on, they will do just fine in whatever specialty they choose.
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Finding research opportunities are already difficult as DO students have to contact the neighbor institutions. Finding one with have high yield publishable data is incredibly remarkable. You're right though. Whoever aim for any competitive specialty needs to be proactive since day 1.
 
Gandyy said:
I have another big question for the informed posters here.

Does it matter which DO school you go to between DO schools? I understand that getting a dermatology residency or plastic surgery residency as a DO is not going to happen.

But what about cardiology, neurosurgery, general surgery, orthopedic surgery?

Does it matter if I go to DMU to do this or is LECOM fine?

Or is the only differentiation here between going to a MD school or a DO school?
Click to expand...
NS and OS are still next to impossible for DOs, especially NS, it's a very small world with limited opportunities even for MD students, and it is the most research driven speciality, so DOs are in very disadvantage position.
 
becomingdoctor said:
NS and OS are still next to impossible for DOs, especially NS, it's a very small world with limited opportunities even for MD students, and it is the most research driven speciality, so DOs are in very disadvantage position.
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NS is a strange one. From the NRMP survey, the PDs are more willing to interview foreign MDs than DOs. I couldn't believe it when I saw it.
 
becomingdoctor said:
NS and OS are still next to impossible for DOs, especially NS, it's a very small world with limited opportunities even for MD students, and it is the most research driven speciality, so DOs are in very disadvantage position.
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I agree NS is really rare for DOs but I have run across a lot of DO OS, I don't think it is as rare. There are a lot of them around me.
 
Gandyy said:
I have another big question for the informed posters here.

Does it matter which DO school you go to between DO schools? I understand that getting a dermatology residency or plastic surgery residency as a DO is not going to happen.

But what about cardiology, neurosurgery, general surgery, orthopedic surgery?

Does it matter if I go to DMU to do this or is LECOM fine?

Or is the only differentiation here between going to a MD school or a DO school?
Click to expand...

I know quite a bit of DO Plastic and Reconstructive surgeons.
 
AlteredScale said:
It is SUPER rare for a DO to match into acgme NS. Much rarer than that of an MD grad.

Though this match a grad from ATSU-SOMA did in fact match NS at Loma Linda.
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Loma linda has two, but who knows when they will take the next DO. Last year, one student from Touro CA matched to LSU, that is all the DO acgme NS story I know.
Many NS PD is okay with FMG(not from the island) as long as the person is an experiencrd NS back home and/or has solid resrarch.
AOA NS is entirely different story, currently, none of the AOA NS residency meets acgme standard, and AOA NS is 6 year but acgme is 7
 
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Regarding research, if you want to go into Cardio, does your research have to be in Cardio?
 
Let's say there's an MD school that's submerged half-way underwater, the faculty have all left, and the students have to learn everything on their own. Program Directors would still prefer the MD from this broken down school then a DO from a well run osteopathic school.

I'm sorry, discrimination is discrimination, and I don't think that will change overnight.

Also the comments around a DO getting ACGME Neurosurgery. Let's put it this way, I have a better chance of getting into the NBA, and I'm 5ft10.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN to LESSEN DISCRIMINATION:
1. DO schools MUST INCORPORATE RESEARCH into their curriculum. This. is. a. must.
2. DO schools MUST TEACH TOWARDS USMLE. This. is. a. must. x1000
 
DOorDONT said:
Let's say there's an MD school that's submerged half-way underwater, the faculty have all left, and the students have to learn everything on their own. Program Directors would still prefer the MD from this broken down school then a DO from a well run osteopathic school.

I'm sorry, discrimination is discrimination, and I don't think that will change overnight.

Also the comments around a DO getting ACGME Neurosurgery. Let's put it this way, I have a better chance of getting into the NBA, and I'm 5ft10.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN to LESSEN DISCRIMINATION:
1. DO schools MUST INCORPORATE RESEARCH into their curriculum. This. is. a. must.
2. DO schools MUST TEACH TOWARDS USMLE. This. is. a. must. x1000
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Lol you're a putz
 
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