Careers in Clinical Psych

[PsychStud689]

Hi everyone,

I am asking for career advice, and I’m going to give you some of my stats/background before I go into my situation.


Undergrad GPA: 3.94
Grad GPA: 4.0

No research experience (besides working as a lab assistant for a semester in a Bio lab. I’ve also done plenty of research papers at the undergrad and graduate levels, but I never took those projects any further)

Undergraduate background in pre-med, ended up majoring in Political Science and Biology (Yes, I was confused at the time. I was going back and forth between law school & med school. I thought about health law & medical ethics at one point).

No clinical experience, just minimal shadowing experience in medicine & dentistry

My interest in clinical psych is coming from my own personal experiences with psychotherapy for childhood trauma. I started a M.S. in CMHC program and loved the courses as well, mainly courses that stressed theories & case conceptualization (blends my love for analytical thinking & personal connection).

I have 2 semesters of graduate coursework completed in a M.S. Clinical Mental Health Counseling program. I am moving states, so I have to leave the program I am at. Unfortunately, my current program is not CACREP-accredited, so my courses won’t transfer over to CACREP schools in other states. Since I basically have to start my graduate education over, I am considering my options.

Option 1: Psy.D (seems unlikely that I’ll get in now, but maybe after a year of building up clinical experience I may get in? I’m not sure on this though…)

Option 2: PhD (seems unlikely because of my lack of research experience, but maybe I’m wrong?)

Option 3: MS in Counseling or MSW

Option 4: Med School (basically saying this because I have a pre-med background & all my prerequisites are completed. I enjoyed my education in science, but I didn’t feel like I could find my niche or passion in medicine during my undergrad years.)

Clinical (and possible research) interests:
-Complex trauma
-Developmental & childhood trauma
-PTSD
-Dissociation
-Memory
-Attachment Theory
-Psychodynamic, Client-Centered, Existential Theories (definitely would classify myself as more humanistic in my approach to therapy, but I still would want to utilize other approaches as well). I’m really just a nerd for theory. I truly love it all.
-Abuse & neglect
-Psychosomatic medicine
-Neurological basis of trauma

I’m open to working with all populations in all environments.

I don’t have research experience, but I could see myself getting into it for the right topic.

I can also see myself teaching at the undergrad & grad levels.

I know nothing about psychological assessments & if they would even be useful in my areas of interest.

I’m thinking of taking a year (or more?) off of school to figure this all out & build up relevant experience. I’m not sure which path or direction I should take. I’ve read all the threads on PsyD vs. PhD vs. Master’s and I’m still confused on which path would be best for my specific situation.

Does anyone have any insight? Are there any other questions I should be asking myself or things to consider in order to come to a clear decision?

I should mention that I am 25. Most people don’t think that’s “old,” but I am struggling because I think that I need to figure this all out now or I’ll be “old” when I finish grad school. I understand that this isn’t logical and plenty of people go to grad school older than me, but it’s still something weighing heavily on my mind nonetheless.

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[summerbabe]

I’m open to working with all populations in all environments.

I don’t have research experience, but I could see myself getting into it for the right topic.

I can also see myself teaching at the undergrad & grad levels.

Teaching in clinical psych as a full-time career (unless you want to be a very poorly paid adjunct with no job security and little or no benefits) is highly competitive and usually prioritizes people with advanced research to become competitive for tenure track positions. The barrier may be less rigorous and different for Social Work and MFT programs, since doctoral study works differently in those fields than clinical psych.

I would recommend considering how much clinical work you’d like as a career. For many full time clinicians, between the ‘emotional tax’ of seeing 22-26 pts a week and administrative/paperwork demands, theory and case conceptualization becomes a very practical task to be completed efficiently (if at all), rather than how you’ve been exposed in an academic setting. Or things we engage with during specific continued trainings/workshops.

An analogy might be like a chef who loves to create new meals and flavor profiles but the routine task is still to crunch out the same core menu day in, day out.

If you think full time therapy might be a good career, doing a licensable Master’s degree might be a good fit. You’re in school for less time, skip the heavy emphasis on research that’s included with the doctorate (even if you never plan to do research as a career) and you can practice psychotherapy without restriction.

But you do sacrifice some training and limit yourself in some professional areas such as assessment and potentially teaching. Good luck!

 

[PsyDr]

1) it all depends on what you value.

A. If you value money, job security, job options, the ability to do anything you want in a field, and the ability to move whenever you like; and are willing to sacrifice time until you make money: medical school.

B. If you value job options, job mobility, and time until you get to work; at the expense of lower income, lesser education, and restrictions on the type of work you do at your job: MSW.

C. If you value time until you get to work and a slightly better education than B; at the expense of lower income, fewer job options, less geographic flexibility, and restrictions on the type of work you do at your job: Counseling masters

D. If you value assessment, mild increase in income, research, and masochism; at the expense of job mobility and time: a PsyD.

E. If D sounds nice but you want to be a professor at an R1 and have less student loans: PhD.

 

[Sanman]

Hi everyone,

I am asking for career advice, and I’m going to give you some of my stats/background before I go into my situation.


Undergrad GPA: 3.94
Grad GPA: 4.0

No research experience (besides working as a lab assistant for a semester in a Bio lab. I’ve also done plenty of research papers at the undergrad and graduate levels, but I never took those projects any further)

Undergraduate background in pre-med, ended up majoring in Political Science and Biology (Yes, I was confused at the time. I was going back and forth between law school & med school. I thought about health law & medical ethics at one point).

No clinical experience, just minimal shadowing experience in medicine & dentistry

My interest in clinical psych is coming from my own personal experiences with psychotherapy for childhood trauma. I started a M.S. in CMHC program and loved the courses as well, mainly courses that stressed theories & case conceptualization (blends my love for analytical thinking & personal connection).

I have 2 semesters of graduate coursework completed in a M.S. Clinical Mental Health Counseling program. I am moving states, so I have to leave the program I am at. Unfortunately, my current program is not CACREP-accredited, so my courses won’t transfer over to CACREP schools in other states. Since I basically have to start my graduate education over, I am considering my options.

Option 1: Psy.D (seems unlikely that I’ll get in now, but maybe after a year of building up clinical experience I may get in? I’m not sure on this though…)

Option 2: PhD (seems unlikely because of my lack of research experience, but maybe I’m wrong?)

Option 3: MS in Counseling or MSW

Option 4: Med School (basically saying this because I have a pre-med background & all my prerequisites are completed. I enjoyed my education in science, but I didn’t feel like I could find my niche or passion in medicine during my undergrad years.)

Clinical (and possible research) interests:
-Complex trauma
-Developmental & childhood trauma
-PTSD
-Dissociation
-Memory
-Attachment Theory
-Psychodynamic, Client-Centered, Existential Theories (definitely would classify myself as more humanistic in my approach to therapy, but I still would want to utilize other approaches as well). I’m really just a nerd for theory. I truly love it all.
-Abuse & neglect
-Psychosomatic medicine
-Neurological basis of trauma

I’m open to working with all populations in all environments.

I don’t have research experience, but I could see myself getting into it for the right topic.

I can also see myself teaching at the undergrad & grad levels.

I know nothing about psychological assessments & if they would even be useful in my areas of interest.

I’m thinking of taking a year (or more?) off of school to figure this all out & build up relevant experience. I’m not sure which path or direction I should take. I’ve read all the threads on PsyD vs. PhD vs. Master’s and I’m still confused on which path would be best for my specific situation.

Does anyone have any insight? Are there any other questions I should be asking myself or things to consider in order to come to a clear decision?

I should mention that I am 25. Most people don’t think that’s “old,” but I am struggling because I think that I need to figure this all out now or I’ll be “old” when I finish grad school. I understand that this isn’t logical and plenty of people go to grad school older than me, but it’s still something weighing heavily on my mind nonetheless.

So, why not psychiatry or PA school and a psych specialization?

 

[PsyDr]

So, why not psychiatry or PA school and a psych specialization?

Because PA school has the same pre-requisites as med school, less job flexibility, less geographic flexibility, less income, and the same liability as of this month.

Med school: No income for 4 years, 50-60k/yr for 3-4 years, ~$280k/yr until you retire= ~9.5MM lifetime

PA school: No income for 2 years, ~110k-130k/yr until you retire, with new liability, = ~4.5MM lifetime.

Plus PAs get all the bs work. Guess who covers night call?

 

[Sanman]

Because PA school has the same pre-requisites as med school, less job flexibility, less geographic flexibility, less income, and the same liability as of this month.

Med school: No income for 4 years, 50-60k/yr for 3-4 years, ~$280k/yr until you retire= ~9.5MM lifetime

PA school: No income for 2 years, ~110k-130k/yr until you retire, with new liability, = ~4.5MM lifetime.

Plus PAs get all the bs work. Guess who covers night call?

True, but it still beats the hell out of a Masters in counseling and doing agency work. At least in my book. Plus, you have a chance of actually paying off your student loans and eating something besides Cup-O-Noodle for dinner.

 

[medium rare]

Hi everyone,

I am asking for career advice, and I’m going to give you some of my stats/background before I go into my situation.


Undergrad GPA: 3.94
Grad GPA: 4.0

No research experience (besides working as a lab assistant for a semester in a Bio lab. I’ve also done plenty of research papers at the undergrad and graduate levels, but I never took those projects any further)

Undergraduate background in pre-med, ended up majoring in Political Science and Biology (Yes, I was confused at the time. I was going back and forth between law school & med school. I thought about health law & medical ethics at one point).

No clinical experience, just minimal shadowing experience in medicine & dentistry

My interest in clinical psych is coming from my own personal experiences with psychotherapy for childhood trauma. I started a M.S. in CMHC program and loved the courses as well, mainly courses that stressed theories & case conceptualization (blends my love for analytical thinking & personal connection).

I have 2 semesters of graduate coursework completed in a M.S. Clinical Mental Health Counseling program. I am moving states, so I have to leave the program I am at. Unfortunately, my current program is not CACREP-accredited, so my courses won’t transfer over to CACREP schools in other states. Since I basically have to start my graduate education over, I am considering my options.

Option 1: Psy.D (seems unlikely that I’ll get in now, but maybe after a year of building up clinical experience I may get in? I’m not sure on this though…)

Option 2: PhD (seems unlikely because of my lack of research experience, but maybe I’m wrong?)

Option 3: MS in Counseling or MSW

Option 4: Med School (basically saying this because I have a pre-med background & all my prerequisites are completed. I enjoyed my education in science, but I didn’t feel like I could find my niche or passion in medicine during my undergrad years.)

Clinical (and possible research) interests:
-Complex trauma
-Developmental & childhood trauma
-PTSD
-Dissociation
-Memory
-Attachment Theory
-Psychodynamic, Client-Centered, Existential Theories (definitely would classify myself as more humanistic in my approach to therapy, but I still would want to utilize other approaches as well). I’m really just a nerd for theory. I truly love it all.
-Abuse & neglect
-Psychosomatic medicine
-Neurological basis of trauma

I’m open to working with all populations in all environments.

I don’t have research experience, but I could see myself getting into it for the right topic.

I can also see myself teaching at the undergrad & grad levels.

I know nothing about psychological assessments & if they would even be useful in my areas of interest.

I’m thinking of taking a year (or more?) off of school to figure this all out & build up relevant experience. I’m not sure which path or direction I should take. I’ve read all the threads on PsyD vs. PhD vs. Master’s and I’m still confused on which path would be best for my specific situation.

Does anyone have any insight? Are there any other questions I should be asking myself or things to consider in order to come to a clear decision?

I should mention that I am 25. Most people don’t think that’s “old,” but I am struggling because I think that I need to figure this all out now or I’ll be “old” when I finish grad school. I understand that this isn’t logical and plenty of people go to grad school older than me, but it’s still something weighing heavily on my mind nonetheless.

Since you already have a pre-med background with required prerequisites completed, I strongly recommend medical school followed by psychiatry residency. You can get good psychotherapy training in some residency programs and postgrad options for further psychotherapy training are easily available in psychiatry.

Less time option: Psych NP. Several years less schooling, excellent job demand and mobility, independent practice in several (and growing) states and very good income potential. Definitely recommend NP over PA for psych. BUT, choose a brick-and-mortar program with a good reputation and solid training if you go NP route. Lots of fly-by-night, distance NP programs with very questionable training out there.

 

[Sanman]

Since you already have a pre-med background with required prerequisites completed, I strongly recommend medical school followed by psychiatry residency. You can get good psychotherapy training in some residency programs and postgrad options for further psychotherapy training are easily available in psychiatry.

Less time option: Psych NP. Several years less schooling, excellent job demand and mobility, independent practice in several (and growing) states and very good income potential. Definitely recommend NP over PA for psych. BUT, choose a brick-and-mortar program with a good reputation and solid training if you go NP route. Lots of fly-by-night, distance NP programs with very questionable training out there.

You may be more familiar than me. However, is the RN curriculum required for NP admission? That would likely mean repeating undergrad coursework which is why I suggested PA.

 

[medium rare]

Pre-med prerequisites exceed what’s needed for RN program admission in most cases. With a bachelor’s degree and pre-med prereqs, you may need a course in nutrition (depending on the nursing program) that wouldn’t typically be part of pre-med prereqs but that’s about it.

You can do an accelerated BSN program that’s generally 14-16 months followed by the NP program or a direct-entry MSN program if you already have a bachelor’s degree and the required prerequisites.

 

[PsychStud689]

Pre-med prerequisites exceed what’s needed for RN program admission in most cases. With a bachelor’s degree and pre-med prereqs, you may need a course in nutrition (depending on the nursing program) that wouldn’t typically be part of pre-med prereqs but that’s about it.

You can do an accelerated BSN program that’s generally 14-16 months followed by the NP program or a direct-entry MSN program if you already have a bachelor’s degree and the required prerequisites.

I haven’t even thought of the NP or PA route, so thank you!

Do you know what a NP would do with a psych specialization? What is the day to day like? I am assuming it doesn’t involve psychotherapy, right?

 

[PsychStud689]

I haven’t even thought of the NP or PA route, so thank you!

Do you know what a NP would do with a psych specialization? What is the day to day like? I am assuming it doesn’t involve psychotherapy, right?

Since you already have a pre-med background with required prerequisites completed, I strongly recommend medical school followed by psychiatry residency. You can get good psychotherapy training in some residency programs and postgrad options for further psychotherapy training are easily available in psychiatry.

Less time option: Psych NP. Several years less schooling, excellent job demand and mobility, independent practice in several (and growing) states and very good income potential. Definitely recommend NP over PA for psych. BUT, choose a brick-and-mortar program with a good reputation and solid training if you go NP route. Lots of fly-by-night, distance NP programs with very questionable training out there.

I am considering med school. What worries me is that I don’t have that burning flame passion that many people do when they decide on med school. I understand how much work it is and I just want to be sure.

You say that psychiatrists can still provide psychotherapy. Would training in this be in the form of residency or a fellowship? Do psychiatrists do psychotherapy or do the vast majority of them mainly do medication management? I am pretty ignorant about psychiatry to be honest.

 

[WisNeuro]

I am considering med school. What worries me is that I don’t have that burning flame passion that many people do when they decide on med school. I understand how much work it is and I just want to be sure.

You say that psychiatrists can still provide psychotherapy. Would training in this be in the form of residency or a fellowship? Do psychiatrists do psychotherapy or do the vast majority of them mainly do medication management? I am pretty ignorant about psychiatry to be honest.

Most are in med management.If you do private practice, probably more likely that you can do therapy in private practice, but for cash pay. Personally, I know exactly zero psychiatrists who actually do therapy aside from 5 minutes with that they code during a med check. They exist, just not in any extent that is useful for my referrals.

 

[PsychStud689]

True, but it still beats the hell out of a Masters in counseling and doing agency work. At least in my book. Plus, you have a chance of actually paying off your student loans and eating something besides Cup-O-Noodle for dinner.

I hear that. I haven’t heard great things about salaries with a M.S. in Counseling. Not that money is everything, but being financially successful is definitely one of my values and goals.

 

[PsychStud689]

Most are in med management.If you do private practice, probably more likely that you can do therapy in private practice, but for cash pay. Personally, I know exactly zero psychiatrists who actually do therapy aside from 5 minutes with that they code during a med check. They exist, just not in any extent that is useful for my referrals.

Do you think that some psychiatrists will try and do both (med management & psychotherapy)? Do you know of any other roles/jobs that psychiatrists can have besides the ones already mentioned? Many people say that psychiatry gives you the option to do whatever in the field, but I’m not sure what that all entails.

 

[WisNeuro]

Do you think that some psychiatrists will try and do both (med management & psychotherapy)? Do you know of any other roles/jobs that psychiatrists can have besides the ones already mentioned? Many people say that psychiatry gives you the option to do whatever in the field, but I’m not sure what that all entails.

Some do both, they are the exception and not the rule. The psychiatry forum can give you more specifics. What exactly do you want to do on a daily basis? What populations do you want to work with? That should dictate your career path.

 

[medium rare]

I haven’t even thought of the NP or PA route, so thank you!

Do you know what a NP would do with a psych specialization? What is the day to day like? I am assuming it doesn’t involve psychotherapy, right?

Psych NPs (PMHNPs) function in essentially the same manner as psychiatrists in most settings. They can do psychotherapy (via scope of practice) but you will need to seek further postgrad training in psychotherapy if you want to be competent (or approach competence) in therapy. Most employed settings will only pay you to diagnose, prescribe and manage medication but you can do some psychotherapy depending upon on what you negotiate for time allowed for each patient. As with psychiatrists, PMHNPs who want to do psychotherapy are primarily in private practice.

Dollar-for-dollar, there is much more bang-for-the-buck becoming a PMHNP versus a psychiatrist (or psychologist for that matter).

 

[medium rare]

I am considering med school. What worries me is that I don’t have that burning flame passion that many people do when they decide on med school. I understand how much work it is and I just want to be sure.

You say that psychiatrists can still provide psychotherapy. Would training in this be in the form of residency or a fellowship? Do psychiatrists do psychotherapy or do the vast majority of them mainly do medication management? I am pretty ignorant about psychiatry to be honest.

Depending on the program, you can get strong training in psychotherapy in a psychiatry residency. Some offer basic/little to no training. You would need to research programs and apply to those that promote therapy training when it came time to apply for residencies in medical school. You can also get in-depth training after residency via a variety of postgrad programs/institutes.

Most psychiatrists do not do much psychotherapy. The few I know who do are all in private practice.

 

[Sanman]

I hear that. I haven’t heard great things about salaries with a M.S. in Counseling. Not that money is everything, but being financially successful is definitely one of my values and goals.

Money is the primary reason people go to work. Take away the paycheck and see who shows up. Don't buy into the marketing too much.

Does anyone set the goal of being financially unsuccessful?

 

[gohogwild]

As a non-professional kiddo youngster with next to zilch experience comprehending psychological concepts, my advice is to read this forum. Believe it or not, these professional posters have expressed optimism and even enjoyment of their selected training and careers (even salaries and field?). Also, my POV about the "old" thing, is that your life isn't put on hold when you're in school or working in research. Yes, uncles and fathers in particular may remind you that you are, indeed, still in school and, no, that is not a job- but hey- it's worth being interested imo