Caribbean schools attrition rates?

Started by gumbyj
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PreMedOrDead said:
Saying nursing doesn't have what medicine has is, in itself, stereotyping.

Try to answer that question yourself. It's difficult to do without a negative implied tone. This is mostly due to the fact the question, in itself as well, is in a negative tone.

That's why it's a :scared: question.
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I disagree. Nursing does not encompass a managerial role in the treatment of patients, decision-making in the evaluation and treatment of the patient, actual administration of treatment when you go beyond basic administration of medication into procedures and surgery, potential for autonomy and funding in biomedical and clinical research, etc... It's all about the role you want to play.
 
gettheleadout said:
I disagree. Nursing does not encompass a managerial role in the treatment of patients, decision-making in the evaluation and treatment of the patient, actual administration of treatment when you go beyond basic administration of medication into procedures and surgery, potential for autonomy and funding in biomedical and clinical research, etc... It's all about the role you want to play.
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I will be using this in my interview. Thank you.
 
H Y F R said:
Do you know what you are implying about nurses? Many I have come across have just as good, and in some cases even better, intellectual capabilities than the physicians they work with.
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This is a highly dubious statement.
 
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PreMedOrDead said:
Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, how about:

"Why do you NOT want to be a nurse?"

It's a loaded question, I've seen it asked before, and they weren't prepared for it. It was awful.
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PreMedOrDead said:
Saying nursing doesn't have what medicine has is, in itself, stereotyping.

Try to answer that question yourself. It's difficult to do without a negative implied tone. This is mostly due to the fact the question, in itself as well, is in a negative tone.

That's why it's a :scared: question.
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Being a doctor opens up all sorts of possibilities. You can go into research/academic, actually cut people open yourself and being in charge of your patients. I heard some highest degree of nursing give you more responsibilities but then the question would be why would I have to do nursing while I can do all that and more as a doctor?
 
Instatewaiter said:
Actually, not really. Two bad scores portends problems. For instance, very recently (ie when those scores for meharry were accurate) Meharry had a LESS THAN 50% pass rate on step 1 and a 39% pass rate on step 2

So thanks for playing... but no.



Pre-meds may not be the best judges of what makes a competent physician... just sayin'
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So what's your point? Meharry and the HBCUs, and maybe even the Caribbean schools, are mission-oriented and not stats-oriented. It's not about havin amazing numbers like 3.6/28 or something like that. Those schools produce compassionate physicians that serve the at-risk populations neglected by our system.

theseeker4 said:
Bull. Wanting to "help people" is certainly not sufficient to become a doctor. It is about abilities, and your numbers say a lot about your abilities. The most kind-hearted person in the world might be great for holding your hand while you are dying, but I will take the @**hole who knows his stuff backward and forward every single time if I have a condition no one can figure out. One makes you feel really good as you die, the other can actually save your life......
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Are you really going there? The ignorance and subtle racism on this website is mind-boggling.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
So what's your point? Meharry and the HBCUs, and maybe even the Caribbean schools, are mission-oriented and not stats-oriented. It's not about havin amazing numbers like 3.6/28 or something like that. Those schools produce compassionate physicians that serve the at-risk populations neglected by our system.

Are you really going there? The ignorance and subtle racism on this website is mind-boggling.
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There is no 'racism' either subtle or implied. Medical school requires a specific level of academic quality. As cited by a previous poster and quite obvious, persons will significantly below average scores (eg; 3.0 GPA combined with a low MCAT, eg: 22) will on average perform much worse on measures of medical school competency and on average have a higher incidence of below satisfactory performance (eg: fail). Individuals who are very likely to fail out do not belong in medical school, because they will be left with a large debt burden, no degree, and few job prospects. It is up to the school to decide whether a particular candidate with risk factors for failure should attend or not.
 
StIGMA said:
There is no 'racism' either subtle or implied. Medical school requires a specific level of academic quality. As cited by a previous poster and quite obvious, persons will significantly below average scores (eg; 3.0 GPA combined with a low MCAT, eg: 22) will on average perform much worse on measures of medical school competency and on average have a higher incidence of below satisfactory performance (eg: fail). Individuals who are very likely to fail out do not belong in medical school, because they will be left with a large debt burden, no degree, and few job prospects. It is up to the school to decide whether a particular candidate with risk factors for failure should attend or not.
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I hear what you're saying, and it sounds like you don't to "waste" medical school spots on URMs. Maybe you're not ready to acknowledge that, but that's what it sounds like.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
I hear what you're saying, and it sounds like you don't to "waste" medical school spots on URMs. Maybe you're not ready to acknowledge that, but that's what it sounds like.
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There are numerous URMs in my school, and they all have done exceedingly well so far. URMs that are not capable of medical school do not belong in medical school, just like non-URMs. No-one is saying that a qualified URM should not be in medical school. Anyone who is not likely to succeed in medical school should not attend, URM or otherwise.

Are you suggesting that just because someone is URM, no matter how unprepared they may be, should be allowed into medical school? Are you not setting this person up for failure (if by all accounts they are clearly unqualified, eg: 18 MCAT, 2.6 undergrad GPA, failed out of pharmacy school previously, etc., whatever else would imply an unqualified candidate)?
 
StIGMA said:
There are numerous URMs in my school, and they all have done exceedingly well so far. URMs that are not capable of medical school do not belong in medical school, just like non-URMs. No-one is saying that a qualified URM should not be in medical school. Anyone who is not likely to succeed in medical school should not attend, URM or otherwise.

Are you suggesting that just because someone is URM, no matter how unprepared they may be, should be allowed into medical school? Are you not setting this person up for failure (if by all accounts they are clearly unqualified, eg: 18 MCAT, 2.6 undergrad GPA, failed out of pharmacy school previously, etc., whatever else would imply an unqualified candidate)?
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I don't even know what to say. This website is so disappointing.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
I disagree. It's not about numbers, it's about helping people. The HBCUs have stats in that range (less so recently, but certainly in the past 5-10 years) and they churn out perfectly competent doctors.
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I am sorry, but as a premed who hasn't taken a single medical school class, you have no ability to judge what it is "about".

Medical school classes are grueling. 3rd year is the worst year of a few people's lives. There are exams to be passed, which are probably some of the hardest exams U.S. education has to offer across all disciplines of education.

Beyond that, clinical decisions are not made on "compassion" alone. While that might play a part, a hard earned education based in scientific principles is what guides clinical choices.

Being a doctor is not all about "compassion" in fact, some of the unhappiest people I have ever met are those who believed that entering medical school. It destroy's their soul, no kidding. If you truly believe compassion is enough to get you through, and not the ability to learn insane amounts of information in short periods of time while dealing with high loads of stress, you need to look into other fields. Social work? Nursing? Snuggle buddy?

and trumping that, is how expensive this process is. Medical schools have a duty to try to select people who will pass medical curricula and boards. Loading people with high debt when there is hardly an indication they could have passed in the first place? That's unethical and inhumane.
 
StIGMA said:
😱 I can't tell if you are trolling, brainwashed, or ignorant. People with disadvantages (eg; URMs) belong in medical school and should be afforded advantages compared to non-URMs. But they still need to meet an academic threshold. Capiche?
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So what about the low-tier DO schools, which often have averages of 3.4/24? They do just fine academically, pass their boards, get residencies, etc. Numbers aren't everything - compassion, volunteerism, attitude, professionalism, etc. matter too.
 
StIGMA said:
Are you suggesting that just because someone is URM, no matter how unprepared they may be, should be allowed into medical school? Are you not setting this person up for failure (if by all accounts they are clearly unqualified, eg: 18 MCAT, 2.6 undergrad GPA, failed out of pharmacy school previously, etc., whatever else would imply an unqualified candidate)?
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I would hesitantly answer, yes. I don't think numbers should even be a part of the formula since screening mechanisms like GPA and MCAT subsection minima disparately affect minority applicants.
 
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nancy mcgunter said:
I would hesitantly answer, yes. I don't think numbers should even be a part of the formula since screening mechanisms like GPA and MCAT subsection minima disparately affect minority applicants.
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holy crap, you must be so high right now. number are the ONLY concrete criteria in this whole process. everything else you mention, compassion, professionalism.... are completely subjective. so in your world, everyone can be a doctors if they can manage to not mess up an interview.
and about the DO schools, got any proofs that say they are completely on-par with the respectable do program like tcom and mwu?
there was actually no subtle racism on this thread until you brought up urm...
 
gettheleadout said:
Morsetlis is at SGU and had an excellent MCAT score...
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He should be at DO school. I don't know what he was thinking.

Law2Doc said:
A couple of reasons the attrition rate is so high, (1) they accept almost anyone with money to burn who wants to take a shot, (2) many of the US people who look offshore are those who were already deemed less than stellar by their US counterpart schools, (3) a lot of folks who were already prone to slacking off dont become superstar students when surrounding themselves with other slackers in a beach setting, (4) a lot of people bail when they see the number of internal hurdles necessary to sit for the steps, advance a year, apply for the match, as well as the difficulty landing most residencies, etc. Those who finish and do well deserve kudos, because the cards are definitely stacked against them.
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:laugh:👍👍👍

Chemdude said:
A 22 (with practice) on the MCAT is horrible..its shows extremely poor critical thinking ability.
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It's a test. It test your ability to 1) study 2) remember 3) apply. You need all 3 to do well -- and it usually comes down to studying correctly.

theseeker4 said:
Bull. Wanting to "help people" is certainly not sufficient to become a doctor. It is about abilities, and your numbers say a lot about your abilities. The most kind-hearted person in the world might be great for holding your hand while you are dying, but I will take the @**hole who knows his stuff backward and forward every single time if I have a condition no one can figure out. One makes you feel really good as you die, the other can actually save your life......
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Exactly.

If an individual just wants to go into medicine to "help people," they should go into social work. They'll be much happier. Managing someones diabetes and trying to correct their poor health laundry list (resulting from a life-time of bad choices) is not my idea of "helping people."

PreMedOrDead said:
Saying nursing doesn't have what medicine has is, in itself, stereotyping.

Try to answer that question yourself. It's difficult to do without a negative implied tone. This is mostly due to the fact the question, in itself as well, is in a negative tone.

That's why it's a :scared: question.
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Stereotypes exist for a reason.

nancy mcgunter said:
So what about the low-tier DO schools, which often have averages of 3.4/24? They do just fine academically, pass their boards, get residencies, etc. Numbers aren't everything - compassion, volunteerism, attitude, professionalism, etc. matter too.
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yeah, schools where 50% of students go primary care. F-that noise.

I wonder how many of them match ortho/derm/plastics (to name a few)?
 
Wilf said:
Troll...or idiot?
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Sorry I just don't think there's any correlation between gpa/mcat and how you perform as a physician. If there was a connection, that would lead to some troubling conclusions that I reject at face value. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, I would love to see evidence that one must have an MCAT of 28 or higher to be a good doctor, for example.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
Thus rendering the MCAT practically useless. That's the point I've been trying to make, thank you. It's not about the numbers.
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The MCAT is far from pointless.

Hoops needs to be there, or else it becomes like india and 800k students apply for 40k spots. Barriers need to "thin" the heard. And it always seems those who get "thinned out" are the ones claiming it's stupid/irrelevant.
 
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The MCAT is still useful for med school admissions. You need something to compare students.
 
except it is..... because without the numbers, you don't get into medical school and therefore you do not become a doctor. Simple as that.
 
Well it seems like everyone here is satisfied with the status quo. I for one am bothered by how disadvantaged and minority applicants are harmed by the admissions process. The physician population should represent the general population in terms of race and other characteristics, and that means making medical school admissions fairer, and now. I don't want a URM 'advantage' or whatever it is that everyone here complains about, I want to eliminate the system that disadvantages poor and minority applicants in the first place. I know this isn't a popular idea so I'll stop posting in this thread now. Maybe when you've been out in the real world you won't be so quick to say to the poor black kid working his way through college, who couldn't afford the $2000 Kaplan course or a bunch or AAMC practice tests, "Sorry, you got a 22, no MD for you." I'm really disappointed in the medical field right now, and that includes you pre-meds, too.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
Well it seems like everyone here is satisfied with the status quo. I for one am bothered by how disadvantaged and minority applicants are harmed by the admissions process. The physician population should represent the general population in terms of race and other characteristics, and that means making medical school admissions fairer, and now. I don't want a URM 'advantage' or whatever it is that everyone here complains about, I want to eliminate the system that disadvantages poor and minority applicants in the first place. I know this isn't a popular idea so I'll stop posting in this thread now. Maybe when you've been out in the real world you won't be so quick to say to the poor black kid working his way through college, who couldn't afford the $2000 Kaplan course or a bunch or AAMC practice tests, "Sorry, you got a 22, no MD for you." I'm really disappointed in the medical field right now.
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The world needs ditch diggers too. Those who do the work succeed. Simple as that.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
Well it seems like everyone here is satisfied with the status quo. I for one am bothered by how disadvantaged and minority applicants are harmed by the admissions process. The physician population should represent the general population in terms of race and other characteristics, and that means making medical school admissions fairer, and now. I don't want a URM 'advantage' or whatever it is that everyone here complains about, I want to eliminate the system that disadvantages poor and minority applicants in the first place. I know this isn't a popular idea so I'll stop posting in this thread now. Maybe when you've been out in the real world you won't be so quick to say to the poor black kid working his way through college, who couldn't afford the $2000 Kaplan course or a bunch or AAMC practice tests, "Sorry, you got a 22, no MD for you." I'm really disappointed in the medical field right now, and that includes you pre-meds, too.
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So you want a physician population that represents the real population, yet you think that minorities are harmed by the admissions process and the URM status should be discontinued? Holy contradiction...
 
xroc said:
So you want a physician population that represents the real population, yet you think that minorities are harmed by the admissions process and the URM status should be discontinued? Holy contradiction...
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No, I want to have a system that doesn't disparately affect certain popuations. That means getting rid of the numbers-based one we have now. I'm in favor the URM "advantage" now, in our current system, because that's what's needed to achieve some degree of fairness. But the fact that there is such an advantage necessarily means the system is broken and unfair. I want the system itself to be overhauled/replaced with one that is fair, is equitable, and produces generous, compassionate, altruistic physicians.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
No, I want to have a system that doesn't disparately affect certain popuations. That means getting rid of the numbers-based one we have now. I'm in favor the URM "advantage" now, in our current system, because that's what's needed to achieve some degree of fairness. But the fact that there is such an advantage necessarily means the system is broken and unfair. I want the system itself to be overhauled/replaced with one that is fair, is equitable, and produces generous, compassionate, altruistic physicians + intelligent, smart, critical thinking physicians.
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Had to add that(because those previous traits are helpful...but intellect/hard work is WAY more critical).
 
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nancy mcgunter said:
Well it seems like everyone here is satisfied with the status quo. I for one am bothered by how disadvantaged and minority applicants are harmed by the admissions process. The physician population should represent the general population in terms of race and other characteristics, and that means making medical school admissions fairer, and now. I don't want a URM 'advantage' or whatever it is that everyone here complains about, I want to eliminate the system that disadvantages poor and minority applicants in the first place. I know this isn't a popular idea so I'll stop posting in this thread now. Maybe when you've been out in the real world you won't be so quick to say to the poor black kid working his way through college, who couldn't afford the $2000 Kaplan course or a bunch or AAMC practice tests, "Sorry, you got a 22, no MD for you." I'm really disappointed in the medical field right now, and that includes you pre-meds, too.
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i want my family to be treated by a doctor that succeeded at every step of the way by merit, not someone that had to be propped up and given a pass simply because of "unfortunate circumstances". if a white guy has 3.7 33 mcat and a black dude has 3.6 22 mcat with identical essays, i am picking the white guy for med school; if a black dude has 3.6 32 mcat and an asian has 3.4 28 mcat with identical ECs, i am picking the black guy for med school.

countless people have had their competence weakened by circumstance and then tossed away for better canadiates... that is called the REAL WORLD. it happens in sports, military and medicine... what are you going to do? pick less qualified applicants simply because of they were disadvantaged? unless they have clearly shown potential in succeeding, the cost of picking less qualified ppl are huge; you could lose millions of dollars and people could die. why would these people in sports/military/medicine risk it? crap happen in life, get used to it. you sound like someone that is way too naive and idealistic and has never spend anytime in the REAL WORLD
 
I am in favor of a system similar to what we have now- not a pure meritocracy (solely numbers based)- but where disadvantaged persons are given a certain advantage. We absolutely need a more diverse group of doctors. However, this advantage given to disadvantaged persons cannot be limitless- these persons still need to demonstrate a set measure of competence (or else they simply will not make it through medical school). Certains persons are indeed so disadvantaged that they cannot make it through medical school. Given different life circumstances they may have succeeded- but are now a lost cause for medical school. This is sad but true- and these persons should not be admitted.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
Sorry I just don't think there's any correlation between gpa/mcat and how you perform as a physician. If there was a connection, that would lead to some troubling conclusions that I reject at face value. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, I would love to see evidence that one must have an MCAT of 28 or higher to be a good doctor, for example.
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You need to have good critical reasoning skills to succeed as a physician, as well as an ability to learn and retain information (especially in the basic/clinical sciences), both of which are reflected in your GPA and MCAT score. No matter how compassionate/altruistic you are, you simply cannot succeed as a physician without these intellectual capabilities.
 
StIGMA said:
I am in favor of a system similar to what we have now- not a pure meritocracy (solely numbers based)- but where disadvantaged persons are given a certain advantage. We absolutely need a more diverse group of doctors. However, this advantage given to disadvantaged persons cannot be limitless- these persons still need to demonstrate a set measure of competence (or else they simply will not make it through medical school). Certains persons are indeed so disadvantaged that they cannot make it through medical school. Given different life circumstances they may have succeeded- but are now a lost cause for medical school. This is sad but true- and these persons should not be admitted.
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a real world story:

my mom was an excellent surgeon in her native country, i mean probably the best in the state/province. when everyone else took 90minutes to do one procedure, she could do it in 30 and in exceptional quality too. when she came to US she wanted to continue her career by taking the board exams. however, she got pregnant with my sister and just could not find the time to study. as expected, she bombed the exam. do I think she deserve a shot over another applicant with higher scores? absolutely no. doing so could probably endangered the lives of patients due to insufficient knowledge of materials. there has to be a strict qualifications for careers where people's lives are at stake... there could be some but little wiggle room for special circumstances, but when you get 22 on a standardized exam that is supposed to put everyone on a level play field, you just dont get accepted.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
No, I want to have a system that doesn't disparately affect certain popuations. That means getting rid of the numbers-based one we have now. I'm in favor the URM "advantage" now, in our current system, because that's what's needed to achieve some degree of fairness. But the fact that there is such an advantage necessarily means the system is broken and unfair. I want the system itself to be overhauled/replaced with one that is fair, is equitable, and produces generous, compassionate, altruistic physicians.
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Ugh.... your so ignorant it hurts my head. I hope you get into medical school just so it can destroy your soul.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
No, I want to have a system that doesn't disparately affect certain popuations. That means getting rid of the numbers-based one we have now. I'm in favor the URM "advantage" now, in our current system, because that's what's needed to achieve some degree of fairness. But the fact that there is such an advantage necessarily means the system is broken and unfair. I want the system itself to be overhauled/replaced with one that is fair, is equitable, and produces generous, compassionate, altruistic physicians.
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Hmm. Let me add my two cents to this. As an admin at a health program at a major university (not med.. But still health related), I can tell you that that the admissions process would be impossible to work with without some way to screen out applicants. I understand what you mean by numbers not being everything, but that doesn't mean they shouldnt be something. Can you imagine if the MCAT were eliminated? Instead of roughly 45,000 applicants there would be well over 100-200K. No one at any school has time to sit through that many applicants and analyze each one. Unless each school employed around 100+ admissions counselors...

If med school were solely based on numbers (ie some college entrance exams in certain countries) I would understand your frustration. But a system does exist now for giving disadvantaged students a leg up as well as help for those who cannot afford prep materials. By looking at med school stats, you would see that disadvantaged groups have higher acceptance rates with lower numbers. If the system were solely numbers based, such an increase in percentage would not exist.

We understand that diversity in the workforce needs to be maintained. Patients, esp those with disadvantaged backgrounds almost always relate better to and prefer a physician who shares similar characteristics as themselves. Cultural tailoring is key to ideal health delivery. That is why med schools and even the MCAT is going through changes to make sure future physicians are aware of these health behavior models. Changes are being made. But a change that would eliminate all numbers is not the way to go.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
So what about the low-tier DO schools, which often have averages of 3.4/24? They do just fine academically, pass their boards, get residencies, etc. Numbers aren't everything - compassion, volunteerism, attitude, professionalism, etc. matter too.
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Do you have any other points to your argument or are you just going to keep repeating your fuzzy jazz about compassion?

My dear, for this game...check and mate.
 
nancy mcgunter said:
So what about the low-tier DO schools, which often have averages of 3.4/24? They do just fine academically, pass their boards, get residencies, etc. Numbers aren't everything - compassion, volunteerism, attitude, professionalism, etc. matter too.
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Just a note, in the DO world there's a large difference between some of the schools, the older, more respected, schools like MSUCOM/PCOM/CCOM/etc. have higher scores (I think MSU is 3.5ish and a 27ish). The problem is comparing them to the newer schools like WCU have significantly lower averages.

The problem is COCA has recently gone on a accredation spree of approving what serenade has called "wal-mart schools", IE Quantity over quality, even going as far as to open a for-profit school that had it's first match list be laughable.

Lumping in all DO schools together is irresponsible. However, Caribbean programs all take students who, frankly, don't have the competency at that time to complete medical school. Not that the students are "dumb", but med school requires dedication and often students who get 3.0s in ugrad don't have that. Caribbean med schools are businesses first and schools second, no matter what the pretty ads you see tell you.
 
gumbyj said:
I found myself contemplating this today after reading a blog about a pre-meds journey through undergrad, finally got accepted to Ross and then was asked to leave after two semesters. It got me wondering...

Why exactly do the Caribbean schools have such high attrition rates? Is it merely due to the fact that they accept students with extremely low stats who can't keep up? Or is the condensed curriculum, and the fact that they want to keep their board scores up and match look okay so they weed out as many lower ranked students as possible?

I am IN NO WAY considering Caribbean schools - just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this.
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http://www.islandmedstudent.com/

and then

http://www.doctorpsychobabble.com/
 
Dionysus007 said:
http://www.islandmedstudent.com/

and then

http://www.doctorpsychobabble.com/
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I read one of her essays and literally laughed out loud when I found these two lines which I always find from Carib graduates who explain their Carib MD like it was a choice they made, not a last resort/desperation move:

"...but the most important one was Ross University’s location in Dominica. I had always wanted to live abroad, especially in a developing country, and I saw this as my opportunity to finally do so. Of course, I realized that attending a Caribbean medical school would come at a price; I would have to deal with the stigma attached to foreign medical grads. But it was a price that I was willing to pay. I saw the opportunity at Ross University to be the best of both worlds. I would spend two years in the beautiful country of Dominica, learning the basic sciences, and then I would return to the States to complete two years of clinical rotations at U.S. hospitals. After graduation, I would have the same opportunities that are available to U.S. medical school grads. So, once I received my acceptance letter, I bought a ticket to Dominica, packed up my most important belongings and prepared to start my life in a foreign country as a medical student."

Oh right, you choose to go to a carib med school solely for it's location... If you want to go somewhere solely for location go to school in Florida, they have beaches too and you get a US degree...
 
^

Actually, if you read her posts (obviously you don't have to), it seems like that's sort of the person she is. Where the 'environment' is a big factor for her.

I haven't read her med student blog in a while, but iirc, she was told about Ross by one of her co-workers (or maybe she knew a doctor who went there) when she mentioned wanting to go to med school. It was already the 'off-season' for US schools, so she applied to Ross. I don't think her stats were bad either (don't remember them, if they were ever posted...).

Either way, the main reason why I posted those two links was just to counteract the Johnathan blog posts. His is an example where the Carib route went wrong, and Kendra's is the example where the Carib route has a happy ending. She even matched into her specialty of choice: Psychiatry. Even if that's not a ~hard specialty to make into, it was still her top choice (or one of them).

Just to add, in regards to some Carib graduates citing location...there's a difference between the 'beaches in Florida' and what may be down in Dominica...one of the ~selling points/things they like to stress is that there's literally nothing to do there but study. No distractions, no malls, no nothing. And for some, that makes a very conducive studying environment. There's no time to go chill on the beach down in the Caribbean if you're studying medicine.

Well, you can, but you're not going to be doing that 24/7.
 
Sileni said:
Just a note, in the DO world there's a large difference between some of the schools, the older, more respected, schools like MSUCOM/PCOM/CCOM/etc. have higher scores (I think MSU is 3.5ish and a 27ish). The problem is comparing them to the newer schools like WCU have significantly lower averages.

The problem is COCA has recently gone on a accredation spree of approving what serenade has called "wal-mart schools", IE Quantity over quality, even going as far as to open a for-profit school that had it's first match list be laughable.

Lumping in all DO schools together is irresponsible. However, Caribbean programs all take students who, frankly, don't have the competency at that time to complete medical school. Not that the students are "dumb", but med school requires dedication and often students who get 3.0s in ugrad don't have that. Caribbean med schools are businesses first and schools second, no matter what the pretty ads you see tell you.
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But the DO gpa's are inflated and cannot be accurately compared. The grade replacement policy knocked me up .2 and I can only imagine that it benefits most people.

I would argue that a DO gpa of 3.5 is really a gpa of 3.3ish. The caribbean is deceiving because they calculate GPA's the same as the US MD schools... Not to knock DO schools, but it has to be mentioned that their "3.5 averages" aren't really 3.5's.
 
Holy FranZ said:
But the DO gpa's are inflated and cannot be accurately compared. The grade replacement policy knocked me up .2 and I can only imagine that it benefits most people.

I would argue that a DO gpa of 3.5 is really a gpa of 3.3ish. The caribbean is deceiving because they calculate GPA's the same as the US MD schools... Not to knock DO schools, but it has to be mentioned that their "3.5 averages" aren't really 3.5's.
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See, here's the thing, I wonder on average how much that inflation is. I know when I applied to DO schools 2 years ago there was no difference between my AACOMAS and AAMC grades (besides one B+ being moved from sGPA to cGPA because math isn't a "science" as far as AACOMAS is concerned.) There isn't any study or report on the average inflation, but I would wager it not being more than .1 at the absolute highest, but I have zero evidence besides anecedotal to back this up.

The truth is, Carib MD schools take kids with 20-22 MCATs. I took a practice test before studying for the MCAT and before taking any Physics course and got a 24, and I'm definitely no smarter than the average bear. That's not to say that Carib MD students are incompetent, but the schools pray on kids who want to be a doctor by any means necessary.
 
Sileni said:
Just a note, in the DO world there's a large difference between some of the schools, the older, more respected, schools like MSUCOM/PCOM/CCOM/etc. have higher scores (I think MSU is 3.5ish and a 27ish). The problem is comparing them to the newer schools like WCU have significantly lower averages.

The problem is COCA has recently gone on a accredation spree of approving what serenade has called "wal-mart schools", IE Quantity over quality, even going as far as to open a for-profit school that had it's first match list be laughable.

Lumping in all DO schools together is irresponsible. However, Caribbean programs all take students who, frankly, don't have the competency at that time to complete medical school. Not that the students are "dumb", but med school requires dedication and often students who get 3.0s in ugrad don't have that. Caribbean med schools are businesses first and schools second, no matter what the pretty ads you see tell you.
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This is something I see as a problem too. COCA seems too lax in their accreditation standards now, and they don't seem like they would go to the trouble of even putting a school on probation. So while we shouldn't expect any problems from the more established schools, we occasionally hear horror stories about the newer smaller ones. I don't know what we'll be getting out of Rocky Vista, but I'm concerned. If the US government is going to grant COCA the power to let an institution produce doctors, this must be done carefully. I feel like we need someone to oversee COCA, at which point we might as well just have LCME oversee and accredit all these schools directly.
 
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Holy FranZ said:
But the DO gpa's are inflated and cannot be accurately compared. The grade replacement policy knocked me up .2 and I can only imagine that it benefits most people.

I would argue that a DO gpa of 3.5 is really a gpa of 3.3ish. The caribbean is deceiving because they calculate GPA's the same as the US MD schools... Not to knock DO schools, but it has to be mentioned that their "3.5 averages" aren't really 3.5's.
Click to expand...

What gpa are you talking about? Undergrad GPA or medical school gpa?

Not trying to derail your discussion, but I'm curious to know what you mean by 'the Caribbean is deceiving because they calculate GPAs the same as the US MD schools'.

Well yes...the people applying to US MD or Carib MD have an undergraduate degree...and thus, the gpas would be comparable.

Then again, I could be completely missing your point though.
 
Dionysus007 said:
What gpa are you talking about? Undergrad GPA or medical school gpa?

Not trying to derail your discussion, but I'm curious to know what you mean by 'the Caribbean is deceiving because they calculate GPAs the same as the US MD schools'.

Well yes...the people applying to US MD or Carib MD have an undergraduate degree...and thus, the gpas would be comparable.

Then again, I could be completely missing your point though.
Click to expand...

I think you misread what I wrote.

I'm trying to get across that because of the GPA replacement option that DO schools use, when they say their average admitted GPA is 3.5 (for undergrad gpa), it's not really 3.5, but something lower.

I used myself as an example and said my GPA was inflated by .2. When a student gets a C or Lower, they more often than not retake the class. Grade replacement allows that first class to be ignored in calculation.

Caribbean schools use the same guidelines as AMCAS and do not use replacement. So that guy with a few D's or F's who retook those courses can have a DO GPA of 3.4 and a 2.7 (arbitrary #'s) in the caribbean.

Yes, the caribbean does take people with the super low MCATs (20-22); however the big 3 take mcats that are 26-27 average.

But yes, I would love a study that shows the mean difference between AMCAS and AOOMCAS. I highly doubt it would ever be done though.
 
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