Caribbean schools attrition rates?

[gumbyj]

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My verdict = extremely well disguised troll.

If you are referring to me then that is silly.

We all know these schools have crazy attrition rates (which I actually had no idea about until I read SDN) and I was just wondering if there is are reasons for this (condensed 16 month curriculum at some places etc.) that are factors besides the de-facto super low stats = incapable medical student = fails out. You have to wonder because some HBCs and DO schools have stats that could be comparable. These schools don't have anywhere near the attrition rates. It's interesting IMO and is a discussion not meant to flame or insult. Was just curious what others thought about it. I am sure the fact that these schools don't really mind kicking people out and taking their $ plays a huge factor as well.

Again, this isn't to say that I don't know any wonderful physicians who graduated from the Caribbean.

 

[gumbyj]

Also* I am applying DO so the comment on "lower stats" was in no way meant in a derogatory manner 🙂

 

[theseeker4]

If you are referring to me then that is silly.

We all know these schools have crazy attrition rates (which I actually had no idea about until I read SDN) and I was just wondering if there is are reasons for this (condensed 16 month curriculum at some places etc.) that are factors besides the de-facto super low stats = incapable medical student = fails out. You have to wonder because some HBCs and DO schools have stats that could be comparable. These schools don't have anywhere near the attrition rates. It's interesting IMO and is a discussion not meant to flame or insult. Was just curious what others thought about it. I am sure the fact that these schools don't really mind kicking people out and taking their $ plays a huge factor as well.

Again, this isn't to say that I don't know any wonderful physicians who graduated from the Caribbean.

I am sure the biggest difference is the support system. A US medical school cares a lot about its attrition rate. Caribbean schools, not so much. The low-stats US schools also hand-select those who have the best chances of succeeding despite the low stats (meaning they take the best students from the low-state demographic they are targeting), and have strong support systems in place, while the Caribbean schools let students sink-or-swim, and take everyone regardless of whether they are likely to fail or succeed.

 

[tiedyeddog]

If you are referring to me then that is silly.

We all know these schools have crazy attrition rates (which I actually had no idea about until I read SDN) and I was just wondering if there is are reasons for this (condensed 16 month curriculum at some places etc.) that are factors besides the de-facto super low stats = incapable medical student = fails out. You have to wonder because some HBCs and DO schools have stats that could be comparable. These schools don't have anywhere near the attrition rates. It's interesting IMO and is a discussion not meant to flame or insult. Was just curious what others thought about it. I am sure the fact that these schools don't really mind kicking people out and taking their $ plays a huge factor as well.

Again, this isn't to say that I don't know any wonderful physicians who graduated from the Caribbean.

I think he/she was referring to Nancy McGunther, who was banned. 🙂

 

[gumbyj]

I think he/she was referring to Nancy McGunther, who was banned. 🙂

Haha okay that makes a lot more sense. 😛

 

[cloverpie]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're putting yourself at a total disadvantage if you pick a Caribbean school over any US DO program. At the academic hospital where I work, I see a lot of foreign medical graduates from India, Lebanon, China who only entered the US system for residency and who get hired after doing residency and fellowship here. I don't see St. George/Ross grads getting the same opportunities for competitive residencies or fellowships nor do I see them getting hired at top hospitals unless they're graveyard-shift hospitalists (which would suuuuck long-term). It's not just the distinction of "foreign/US" that put Caribbean grads at a disadvantage. Basically, you're fighting people's perceptions for your entire career if you're a Caribbean graduate.

One of my best friends attended St. George's and said if he could do it all over again, he'd have gone DO in a heartbeat. He said he was too focused on just having "MD" behind his name and didn't think about the disadvantages he'd face in terms of training, boards preparation, rotations and residency applications.

Everyone seems to raise the examples of the Ross/SGU kids who kill boards and enter radiology/surgery/orthopedics. After making plenty of mistakes myself, don;t ever think you'll be the exception. Always make decisions as if you're the rule (which overwhelmingly, you are). I'm stepping off my soapbox now. 😉

 

[Ironmandoc]

Do you think if there were fewer Caucasian and Asians in medical school, these groups would have received the same URM status? Just a thought experiment.


FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine '16
Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app

 

[cloverpie]

You mean Caribbean grads would've received URM status? Or foreign grads? Foreign grads are those who graduated from non-US medical schools.

 

[Morsetlis]

SGU doesn't have a "high" attrition rate, especially if you compare it to medical schools in India, but it's still a higher-than-US attrition rate. The classes are not easy and I've already seen a few of my friends drop out.

As for other Caribbean schools, I have no idea.

http://sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives12-more-than-940-new-mds.html

Enrollment: 4,715 over 4 years (a not-insignificant number of them are Canadian / Caribbean / Non-US / 5-year MPH/MBA/decelerate).

I'm not going to say that going to the Caribbean was a good idea, either, especially due to the new number of US schools entering the Match, but SGU doesn't fail its students just for the money. You can repeat up to two semesters here with no additional cost beyond admin/room/board. Excellent for Trinidadians on full scholarships ;p

 

[Morsetlis]

Do you think if there were fewer Caucasian and Asians in medical school, these groups would have received the same URM status? Just a thought experiment.


FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine '16
Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app

You should go see if Caucasians receive URM status in Indian medical schools 😉

 

[fides]

Its quite simple actually, there are certain individuals (including me) who have this "ambition" and accordingly a developed "persona" about themselves and the field of medicine as a profession. In essence, these individuals dont plan accordingly, and are neither motivated or dedicated enough to understand the complex and intricate protocol of getting into Medical School. What alot of pre-meds do not understand is that, the moment you decided to become a "doctor" it was a race against the time, since in NA it is a standard 10-16 years before you will become a physician/specialist. Therefore, wasting the first few years of undergrad doesnt help. Whats more astonishing is the fact that majority of the student body at Caribbean schools are 1st time application rejections. Conversely, these students never got over the shock of "everything is going to be alright if I work hard.... fast forward 4 years later..... rejection in hand, nightmare coming true......the world isnt all roses, and its not going to work out in the end" phase, and decide that since there is an avenue of sorts, a "shortcut" if you will that will accept their 3rd class work ethic, and a lack of credentials, they jump the gun as soon as they get the "interview".

The reason why the attrition rate is so terribly high is because regardless of the level of prestige, or reputation associated with said Caribbean institutes (Top 3 or not), the curriculum is still relatively similar to that found in other Medical schools across the globe ( by no means am I even contemplating that the level of education is similar, but the CONTENT is). Now you have this "x" amount of content that requires a student that has "y" amount of skill sets., mentality, drive, passion, ambition etc. Majority of the students in Caribbeans dont even come close to that "y" amount. Therefore they fail out, not only due to the fact that the studying might be too difficult but also due to the nature of these students. The average amount of applications submitted before accepted in to Canadian medical schools is 2.7, therefore it is fair to say that there is a TON of people who applied multiple times, and preservered through stress, financial constrains and god knows what else to finally get accepted by upgrading their application constantly, they didn't quit or look for the quintessential easy way out.

 

[235009]

I found myself contemplating this today after reading a blog about a pre-meds journey through undergrad, finally got accepted to Ross and then was asked to leave after two semesters. It got me wondering...

Why exactly do the Caribbean schools have such high attrition rates? Is it merely due to the fact that they accept students with extremely low stats who can't keep up? Or is the condensed curriculum, and the fact that they want to keep their board scores up and match look okay so they weed out as many lower ranked students as possible?

I am IN NO WAY considering Caribbean schools - just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this.

just to update you guys...he finally posted after a year of inactivity on the blog:
http://6medschool.blogspot.com/2012/07/not-depression.html

I had posted multiple comments on the site with real advice but he filters those out and only allows the positive ones that are blindly encouraging or that stroke his ego to get posted.

looks like that's exactly what he was doing....

While the vast majority of the comments left for me were very encouraging, these criticisms were all true and they were expressed by at good handful of people over the years.

 

[2medschool]

I had posted multiple comments on the site with real advice but he filters those out and only allows the positive ones that are blindly encouraging or that stroke his ego to get posted.

This is not true.

I've never once filtered out a negative comment in nearly 6 years of blogging. The only comments I filter out are spam and advertising. I was getting too much spam so I had to start moderating all the comments. If you left a comment in the past year, that probably explains it. About 100 comments (positive and negative) had been left un-moderated in that time. They were all just sitting there in the queue, waiting to be approved.

edit: http://www.6medschool.com/2012/07/harsh-criticism-from-student-doctor.html

 

[Duped]

There are many other professions where you can help people but can get by with fewer intellectual capabilities than those required to go through med school and become a doctor. The can become nurses, PAs, social workers, public health professionals, etc etc

Do not forget podiatry or chiropractic!

 

[HollyHinkle]

Wow, I haven't thought about Caribbean MD is a long time.

I went to Ross, beginning the same semester as Jonathan, the original blogger this thread is about. I couldn't complete my first semester and I decided not to try again.

I believe the high attrition rate is primarily due to underqualified students. Most of us were terrible students with terrible stats (and big egos). Dominica is also one of the less modern islands (stock up on drinking water because if it rains for more than 10 minutes, the sewer system gets overwhelmed; annoying little details like no water pressure or inconsistent clean food avenues add up really fast!) The locals treat you like walking cash cows.

I remember in our first semester, there was an email sent out that an exam was changed from our regularly scheduled time. In med school, there's like 3 exams that determine all your grades for the semester (each exam has all subjects combined). Jonathan missed it. HOW THE **** DO YOU MISS AN EXAM. That's all everyone ever talks about. He must have not talked to anyone. Which is ridiculous because everyone takes anatomy twice weekly in a group setting.

I think that Caribbean MDs are less bright than USMD students. I think Jonathan is less bright than the average Caribbean MD.

That's my two cents.

 

[HoltMD]

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates Americans so much. Hmmm...?
Oh, look at all these losers:

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm

 

[greatnt249]

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, how about:

"Why do you NOT want to be a nurse?"

It's a loaded question, I've seen it asked before, and they weren't prepared for it. It was awful.

Simple question with a simple answer:

I want to captain the ship, not scrub its decks.

 

[greatnt249]

Well it seems like everyone here is satisfied with the status quo. I for one am bothered by how disadvantaged and minority applicants are harmed by the admissions process. The physician population should represent the general population in terms of race and other characteristics, and that means making medical school admissions fairer, and now. I don't want a URM 'advantage' or whatever it is that everyone here complains about, I want to eliminate the system that disadvantages poor and minority applicants in the first place. I know this isn't a popular idea so I'll stop posting in this thread now. Maybe when you've been out in the real world you won't be so quick to say to the poor black kid working his way through college, who couldn't afford the $2000 Kaplan course or a bunch or AAMC practice tests, "Sorry, you got a 22, no MD for you." I'm really disappointed in the medical field right now, and that includes you pre-meds, too.

At the risk of sounding "racist," why should it be this way? Certain professions, especially those where lives are at stake, depend on the competence of its practitioners, not the representation of races/ethnicities in the field.

If you don't have the stats, then you don't belong in the field; it's as simple as that. I didn't drop $2000 for an MCAT prep course because (gasp) I couldn't afford it. I certainly didn't come from a wealthy background. No one in my family is in the medical field. You know what I did? I worked hard for what I wanted and got it; that's how it should be. Medicine is about constantly assessing/reassessing your own competence in the field and continually adjusting/improving so that you don't harm or kill your patients. Part of competence is being very aware of what you don't know, and minimizing the dreaded "not knowing what you don't know." If you can't objectively look at yourself and say, "wow, a 20N just isn't going to cut it when it comes to what I have to deal with in medical school," then you have no business being in the field, because if you can't be honest enough with yourself to come to that conclusion, then you are firmly in the category of "not knowing what you don't know."

 

[Yoseph101]

Wow, I haven't thought about Caribbean MD is a long time.

I went to Ross, beginning the same semester as Jonathan, the original blogger this thread is about. I couldn't complete my first semester and I decided not to try again.

I believe the high attrition rate is primarily due to underqualified students. Most of us were terrible students with terrible stats (and big egos). Dominica is also one of the less modern islands (stock up on drinking water because if it rains for more than 10 minutes, the sewer system gets overwhelmed; annoying little details like no water pressure or inconsistent clean food avenues add up really fast!) The locals treat you like walking cash cows.

I remember in our first semester, there was an email sent out that an exam was changed from our regularly scheduled time. In med school, there's like 3 exams that determine all your grades for the semester (each exam has all subjects combined). Jonathan missed it. HOW THE **** DO YOU MISS AN EXAM. That's all everyone ever talks about. He must have not talked to anyone. Which is ridiculous because everyone takes anatomy twice weekly in a group setting.

I think that Caribbean MDs are less bright than USMD students. I think Jonathan is less bright than the average Caribbean MD.

That's my two cents.

Hey man, at least he made it to semester 2

 

[MaenadsDance]

At the risk of sounding "racist," why should it be this way? Certain professions, especially those where lives are at stake, depend on the competence of its practitioners, not the representation of races/ethnicities in the field.

If you don't have the stats, then you don't belong in the field; it's as simple as that. I didn't drop $2000 for an MCAT prep course because (gasp) I couldn't afford it. I certainly didn't come from a wealthy background. No one in my family is in the medical field. You know what I did? I worked hard for what I wanted and got it; that's how it should be. Medicine is about constantly assessing/reassessing your own competence in the field and continually adjusting/improving so that you don't harm or kill your patients. Part of competence is being very aware of what you don't know, and minimizing the dreaded "not knowing what you don't know." If you can't objectively look at yourself and say, "wow, a 20N just isn't going to cut it when it comes to what I have to deal with in medical school," then you have no business being in the field, because if you can't be honest enough with yourself to come to that conclusion, then you are firmly in the category of "not knowing what you don't know."

Do you have a New York Times subscription? There was actually an article in the NYT magazine today relevant to your question, about healthcare in rural Mississippi. Specifically, the article was about establishing a system of home health aides patterned on the Iranian system (yes, I know -- read the article!). The doctor spearheading this project was a former civil rights activist (I think he was about 79). Anyway, at one point in the course of the article an interesting conversation was reported:

In Belzoni, everyone sat down at a rectangular table, and the director of nursing, Dee Ann Brown, recounted the hospital’s troubles: emergency-room readmissions, obesity, inadequate insurance. Shirley then explained the role of community health workers and asked Brown if she thought that service might be helpful.



“What you are describing is home health, isn’t it?” Brown said.



Home-health agencies dispatch nurses to do clinical work in patients’ homes. But they are not obligated to take your phone calls at midnight or steer you away from eating fried food — and you have to have insurance to get their care. Often for-profit services, they are also the hedge funds of the health care community: potentially lucrative, largely unregulated, producing bad results as often as good. Sanjay Basu, a physician and policy expert at the University of California, San Francisco, says that while he has seen some remarkable and devoted home-health agencies, “if you’re in it for a buck, you could have a terrible home agency and make a ton of money.” Many towns in the delta have them — yet the delta’s problems persist. Why? Shirley offered that the hospitals need a third party trained to discern what exactly will help a patient, and that party must come from the patient’s world: talk the same, share similar fears and frustrations and life experiences.



“Most home-health nurses build great relationships with their patients,” Brown said.



“But there’s a lot of distrust,” Henderson-Camara said, leaning forward. “We don’t trust people who don’t look like us. Having grown up in a very segregated community, I know this for a fact. You may think that you’re in with that patient, but when you walk out that door, they will laugh and say, ‘I just told her that so she’ll stop asking me questions.’ But if you live in that community and sister Edna tells you something, you say, ‘Now, Edna,’ and she will say, ‘O.K., you got me.’ And she’ll tell you the truth. People do not trust people who do not look like them.”



“I don’t feel that’s a problem here,” said Brown, who happens to be white. “I may be way smoozed.”



“I think you’re smoozed.”

 

[greatnt249]

Do you have a New York Times subscription? There was actually an article in the NYT magazine today relevant to your question, about healthcare in rural Mississippi. Specifically, the article was about establishing a system of home health aides patterned on the Iranian system (yes, I know -- read the article!). The doctor spearheading this project was a former civil rights activist (I think he was about 79). Anyway, at one point in the course of the article an interesting conversation was reported:

While I understand the premise behind what the article was saying, I don't believe the (now banned) poster's solution of shoe-horning minorities (or anyone, for that matter) into medical school with inadequate stats is the solution.

There are many tiers of education you need to successfully pass before you get into medical school. If we're talking about fixing a disparity in the distribution of ethnicities in the medical field because many lack the stats to get in, that tells me that there are educational disparities that need to be addressed in lower tiers of education, not that we need to change the standards by which medical students are selected. Like I said earlier, when lives are at stake, admission should be (almost) purely meritocratic.

 

[MaenadsDance]

While I understand the premise behind what the article was saying, I don't believe the (now banned) poster's solution of shoe-horning minorities (or anyone, for that matter) into medical school with inadequate stats is the solution.

There are many tiers of education you need to successfully pass before you get into medical school. If we're talking about fixing a disparity in the distribution of ethnicities in the medical field because many lack the stats to get in, that tells me that there are educational disparities that need to be addressed in lower tiers of education, not that we need to change the standards by which medical students are selected. Like I said earlier, when lives are at stake, admission should be (almost) purely meritocratic.

I totally get what you're saying. Totally totally totally. On the other hand (and at the risk of sounding like a clueless pre-med) how many times have I heard "You will never need Organic Chemistry outside of med school applications," or some variation of that? The idea that one might prioritize something other than pure academic (as distinct from intellectual) ability in a physician doesn't seem crazy to me. Prioritizing a health care provider's ability to gain the trust of, and understand the real living conditions of a patient makes sense. I think you can make good arguments that patient advocates are easier to recruit and train on a local level than physicians, but of course there's more to it.

There's the (admittedly controversial) notion that affirmative action in higher education is necessary to create the conditions in which primary education can actually improve. The idea that if you don't have health care leaders who come from ethnic minority, religious minority, rural backgrounds etc you won't have people willing not only to work in fields relevant to those parts of the American population, but to devote their lives and whole careers to those fields -- the difference, say, between white upper-middle-class college grads doing TFA for a few years vs people saying, "I want to teach in this inner city classroom for my whole career, because it was in a school like this that I learned to love education." KWIM?

 

[Dionysus007]

I think that Caribbean MDs are less bright than USMD students.

You'll find incompetent people in both groups.

Incompetent is a strong word, I know.

 

[HollyHinkle]

Hey man, at least he made it to semester 2

He made it to semester 2 because he was granted permission to repeat semester 1. The same material presented by the same professors in the same environment - I can't imagine not passing the second time around

 

[2medschool]

He made it to semester 2 because he was granted permission to repeat semester 1. The same material presented by the same professors in the same environment - I can't imagine not passing the second time around

I still had to pass 1st semester the first time around. In my meeting, the associate dean looked at my exam 1 and 2 scores and saw they were decent. Since the final was cumulative, the she decided that whatever scores I got in the final for each subject would be proportionally applied to my missing exam 3 scores. So my final was weighted more than everyone else's, but I still had to pass.

In the end, my grades were good enough to repeat, but not progress into 2nd.

It wasn't a free pass to repeat like you're making it out to be.

 

[notbobtrustme]

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates Americans so much. Hmmm...?
Oh, look at all these losers:

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm

says nothing about the attrition rate.

 

[HollyHinkle]

I still had to pass 1st semester the first time around. In my meeting, the associate dean looked at my exam 1 and 2 scores and saw they were decent. Since the final was cumulative, the she decided that whatever scores I got in the final for each subject would be proportionally applied to my missing exam 3 scores. So my final was weighted more than everyone else's, but I still had to pass.

In the end, my grades were good enough to repeat, but not progress into 2nd.

It wasn't a free pass to repeat like you're making it out to be.

In summary, you failed semester 1. Then you repeated semester 1 and passed. That's how you got to semester 2.

Also, if I remember correctly, repeating semesters are even easier than retaking all 5 classes. You only have to retake your 3 worst classes.

You had a poor performance. Admit it.

 

[2medschool]

In summary, you failed semester 1. Then you repeated semester 1 and passed. That's how you got to semester 2.

Also, if I remember correctly, repeating semesters are even easier than retaking all 5 classes. You only have to retake your 3 worst classes.

You had a poor performance. Admit it.

Every time I posted on my old blog while it was happening was an admission of my poor performance.

Every time I post on my new blog titled "Failing Out of Medical School" is an admission of my poor performance.

And no where in this thread have I ever said the contrary.

I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[HollyHinkle]

You'll find incompetent people in both groups.

Incompetent is a strong word, I know.

I would agree. I went to Ross in Jan 2010. I came back immediately after semester 1. Since that time, I've met and dated doctors from different backgrounds. (I work in one of the largest hospital systems in the country).

The DO didn't place into any residency, so he got into a local community hospital because his fancy private school has an unofficial agreement. It was hard to push for his transfer from fam med into internal.

There was a guy from St. Matt's. (In hindsight, I think he made a better choice than Ross because he lived with the American amenities that we are used to)

Right now, a USMD is struggling in PGY1. I went to his welcome dinner and there were plenty of FMGs that were well accepted and doing strong now. He has strongest resume as a USMD, but it seems like he struggles the most out of my ex's.

I think that dating reveals the vulnerable side of a person that you wouldn't see otherwise.

Also, keep in mind that there are fancy residencies and then there are bottom of the barrel residencies. I know FMG's who get into ortho which is super competitive field. (The exception to the rule, but a wonderful exception.)

In summary, I think what they advertise is true. You can make your MD dreams a reality if you are willing to sacrifice the time and money. I know people who have transferred and will be getting a USMD. I know people who have repeated a few semesters along the way (but they are on their way to doing something they love). I also know people have regretted it completely.

 

[HollyHinkle]

It wasn't a free pass to repeat like you're making it out to be.

A free pass to repeat? Am I offending you? You went to an offshore med school and had to pay tuition twice to pass semester 1.

That's how you got to semester 2, which is the original retort to my summary of Ross.

 

[2medschool]

A free pass to repeat? Am I offending you? You went to an offshore med school and had to pay tuition twice to pass semester 1.

That's how you got to semester 2, which is the original retort to my summary of Ross.

I'm confused more than anything. It's like you dislike me so much. I have nothing against you.

After looking at your post history, it looks like you already got accepted into pharmacy school since your time at Ross. And judging from one of your other posts in this thread, you have a super healthy social life. You have all these things going for you and still feel the need to kick people while they're down.

I don't get it. If anything I'd like to meet you and find out what you did to get to where you are, considering where you were before.

I've already beaten myself up over everything that happened. You can help if you want, but I think I got it covered.

 

[KnuxNole]

Holly, you said you left after semester 1. Was that because of your choice or due to failure as well?

 

[2medschool]

Back on topic: I don't have exact statistics, but from what I remember the numbers of the January 2010 class went something like this:

January 2010
400 Total First Semester Students

May 2010
200 Second Semester Students
50 First Semester Repeating Students
150 Dismissed/Withdraw

-If you failed 1 or 2 subjects, you were allowed to repeat 1st semester.
-If you failed 3 or more subjects, you were immediately dismissed.
-The number of students who are dismissed/withdraw from 2nd to 3rd semester goes way down.
-I think 90% of 2nd semester students make it into 3rd and then that number gets even better from there.
-The huge drop off is only in 1st.

All everyone ever talked about was passing 1st. "If you pass 1st then you have a good chance of graduating."

Unfortunately, I was part of the 10% that never made it to 3rd.

 

[Dionysus007]

^ The cut-offs now are different now, since they changed to an Organ Systems curriculum, but you probably already knew that. If you fail a block, even by 1 point, you have to repeat the whole semester. If you fail more than 1 block, you get dismissed (you can appeal). The retention rate for the January 2012 class was like upper 70% I believe.

'Just passing' (as in 'barely passing') is never really enough...if someone barely passed 1st by a point or two...chances are, they will fail out in second (and so on). Unless, over the break, they get their act together, reevaluate what went wrong and do a complete overhaul of their studying style. Which is possible.

 

[chiz2kul]

 

[KnuxNole]

That is scary as hell to have 150 people drop in the first semester...where you are just starting to pick up study habits and getting used to things =O