Caribbean schools attrition rates?

[gumbyj]

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I found myself contemplating this today after reading a blog about a pre-meds journey through undergrad, finally got accepted to Ross and then was asked to leave after two semesters. It got me wondering...

Why exactly do the Caribbean schools have such high attrition rates? Is it merely due to the fact that they accept students with extremely low stats who can't keep up? Or is the condensed curriculum, and the fact that they want to keep their board scores up and match look okay so they weed out as many lower ranked students as possible?

I am IN NO WAY considering Caribbean schools - just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[DrCaliBoy]

May you share the blog please, and its because some of the students they accept shouldnt be there in the first place. I also believe that they dont have as much resources to help you if you are struggling as us md schools

 

[235009]

it's because they accept students who have no business being in med school. if you have a GPA 3.0 and a 22 on the MCAT like the student whose blog you were reading then you certainly do not belong in med school. They pray on pre-meds who think way too highly of themselves and are convinced that once they enter med school everything will be different and that the MCAT is unfair and unnecessary.

 

[911 Turbo]

Post blog links?

 

[gumbyj]

getting in: http://2medschool.blogspot.com/
and
failing out: http://6medschool.blogspot.com/

Its really kind of sad actually. I am not sure if he posts his MCAT score and/or GPA. I didn't read through every post...

I do know of people from my undergrad who went to SGU with ~3.5/29s so the classes can't be made up of ALL students with piss poor MCAT scores and GPAs - their attrition rates just boggle my mind... I guess those who have decent stats are the ones who go on to do well on Step 1 and match and the others... well not so much.

 

[gettheleadout]

Morsetlis is at SGU and had an excellent MCAT score...

 

[lobo.solo]

getting in: http://2medschool.blogspot.com/
and
failing out: http://6medschool.blogspot.com/

Its really kind of sad actually. I am not sure if he posts his MCAT score and/or GPA. I didn't read through every post...

I do know of people from my undergrad who went to SGU with ~3.5/29s so the classes can't be made up of ALL students with piss poor MCAT scores and GPAs - their attrition rates just boggle my mind... I guess those who have decent stats are the ones who go on to do well on Step 1 and match and the others... well not so much.

Wow, This is sad. Poor guy.

 

[Law2Doc]

I found myself contemplating this today after reading a blog about a pre-meds journey through undergrad, finally got accepted to Ross and then was asked to leave after two semesters. It got me wondering...

Why exactly do the Caribbean schools have such high attrition rates? Is it merely due to the fact that they accept students with extremely low stats who can't keep up? Or is the condensed curriculum, and the fact that they want to keep their board scores up and match look okay so they weed out as many lower ranked students as possible?

I am IN NO WAY considering Caribbean schools - just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this.

A couple of reasons the attrition rate is so high, (1) they accept almost anyone with money to burn who wants to take a shot, (2) many of the US people who look offshore are those who were already deemed less than stellar by their US counterpart schools, (3) a lot of folks who were already prone to slacking off dont become superstar students when surrounding themselves with other slackers in a beach setting, (4) a lot of people bail when they see the number of internal hurdles necessary to sit for the steps, advance a year, apply for the match, as well as the difficulty landing most residencies, etc. Those who finish and do well deserve kudos, because the cards are definitely stacked against them.

 

[tn4596]

From what i have read from the blog, he wold have a gpa around 3.2. not too sure about mcat. i would say at least a 25; because he did say that he did well on PS and VR. From reading his blog, I wouldnt think his work ethic is the cause of the dismissal. or maybe he should just be a writer or something. Science is definitely not his thing.

 

[gumbyj]

Wow, This is sad. Poor guy.

Yeah it's pretty bad. Made me sad too. His advice isn't even bad. Him contemplating trying to go to another caribbean medical schools= WORST IDEA EVER.

 

[235009]

From what i have read from the blog, he wold have a gpa around 3.2. not too sure about mcat. i would say at least a 25; because he did say that he did well on PS and VR. From reading his blog, I wouldnt think his work ethic is the cause of the dismissal. or maybe he should just be a writer or something. Science is definitely not his thing.

He had a 3.0 GPA and 22 MCAT

http://4medschool.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-are-your-reasons-for-going-to-ross.html

he had no business whatsoever being in med school and the fact that he failed multiple times and still blamed the school and thought he should go to another med school is just sad.

As for SGU ...I would say there are three tiers of Carib schools....SGU is the top tier...the rest of the "big four" is the second tier and the rest are the third tier. SGU has higher standards and more consistent results than the rest of the caribbean schools. While it's still a bad option, IMO it's way better than Ross, AUC, etc.

 

[Keepitclassy]

I remember reading somewhere the following:

~50% attrition after MS1
~50% pass STEPS
~50% Match rate

So roughly 1 out of 8 candidates make it into a residency if that's the case.

 

[jjesque]

His blog annoys me. His posts suggest he believes he isn’t underqualified, the system is just out to get him. He lacks self-awareness and jumps through all sorts of hurdles to justify his own abilities and choices, i.e., med school at Ross is harder because “Dominica isn’t the most civilized country in the world” (which is actually offensive), and even though he dropped out of med school he is still qualified because “I passed my first semester and I was on my way through the second.”

Many of the comments on his blog praise him for his perseverance and tell him to keep going for his dream “no matter what” -- but, really, medicine is a helping, community-serving profession at its roots and I hope he realizes soon that he may not be the most qualified to serve his community. Right now, he only seems interested in serving his own self-interest.

 

[Fivo]

His blog annoys me. His posts suggest he believes he isn't underqualified, the system is just out to get him. He lacks self-awareness and jumps through all sorts of hurdles to justify his own abilities and choices, i.e., med school at Ross is harder because "Dominica isn't the most civilized country in the world" (which is actually offensive), and even though he dropped out of med school he is still qualified because "I passed my first semester and I was on my way through the second."

Many of the comments on his blog praise him for his perseverance and tell him to keep going for his dream "no matter what" -- but, really, medicine is a helping, community-serving profession at its roots and I hope he realizes soon that he may not be the most qualified to serve his community. Right now, he only seems interested in serving his own self-interest.

On top of it all, he had the audacity to write a book, "Getting into Medical School: A First Hand Account".

No offense to him but he'd probably be the last person I'd listen to for advice on getting into med school.

 

[235009]

Many of the comments on his blog praise him for his perseverance and tell him to keep going for his dream “no matter what” -- but, really, medicine is a helping, community-serving profession at its roots and I hope he realizes soon that he may not be the most qualified to serve his community. Right now, he only seems interested in serving his own self-interest.

I had posted multiple comments on the site with real advice but he filters those out and only allows the positive ones that are blindly encouraging or that stroke his ego to get posted.

On top of it all, he had the audacity to write a book, "Getting into Medical School: A First Hand Account".

Did that book ever get published?

 

[Fivo]

I had posted multiple comments on the site with real advice but he filters those out and only allows the positive ones that are blindly encouraging or that stroke his ego to get posted.



Did that book ever get published?

Hmm not sure, but it does have an ISBN# (99781441549839). Does that mean it's published?

And as mean as it sounds, I couldn't help but chuckle when I googled his blog.

1st result - Getting into Medical School
2nd result - Failing out of Medical School

Feels bad man.

 

[gumbyj]

I remember reading somewhere the following:

~50% attrition after MS1
~50% pass STEPS
~50% Match rate

So roughly 1 out of 8 candidates make it into a residency if that's the case.

That is INSANE. 😱

 

[tima]

That's not true for the big 4 (AUC, SG, Ross, Saba). Maybe for the the other lower schools.

For example, the top 4 have 90+% first time pass rate for Step 1.

This is just info I read in other threads.

I remember reading somewhere the following:

~50% attrition after MS1
~50% pass STEPS
~50% Match rate

So roughly 1 out of 8 candidates make it into a residency if that's the case.

 

[jjesque]

That's not true for the big 4 (AUC, SG, Ross, Saba). Maybe for the the other lower schools.

For example, the top 4 have 90+% first time pass rate for Step 1.

This is just info I read in other threads.

Those figures are cited a lot by those schools' marketing materials but I don't really understand how they are derived. According to the official AUC student newspaper, 253 students took Step 1 in 2010 with a 94% pass rate and an average score of 217 (http://www.aucscope.com/2011/02/usmle-step-1-in-2010/). But the total enrolment in the AUC SOM exceeds 4,300 students (http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html). So if we assume there are 1000 students per year, only 25% of them took Step 1?? Not understanding...

 

[tima]

I am also not sure. But, the Caribbean schools work on tri semester schedule, so students are taking Step 1 at different time periods throughout the year.

I think the 253 students represents a time period like January to June, or some period like that. Or, maybe that's data for one class. According to the AUC site, the class size is about 200 now.

For example, lets say Student A finishes basic sciences in the spring semester and takes Step 1 in the summer. Student B finishes basic sciences in the summer semester and takes it in the fall. You see how there are different time periods.

Those figures are cited a lot by those schools' marketing materials but I don't really understand how they are derived. According to the official AUC student newspaper, 253 students took Step 1 in 2010 with a 94% pass rate and an average score of 217 (http://www.aucscope.com/2011/02/usmle-step-1-in-2010/). But the total enrolment in the AUC SOM exceeds 4,300 students (http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html). So if we assume there are 1000 students per year, only 25% of them took Step 1?? Not understanding...

 

[pre med 2014]

(3) a lot of folks who were already prone to slacking off dont become superstar students when surrounding themselves with other slackers in a beach setting

This made me chuckle

 

[Nymphicus]

That's not true for the big 4 (AUC, SG, Ross, Saba). Maybe for the the other lower schools.

For example, the top 4 have 90+% first time pass rate for Step 1.

This is just info I read in other threads.

Those figures are cited a lot by those schools' marketing materials but I don't really understand how they are derived. According to the official AUC student newspaper, 253 students took Step 1 in 2010 with a 94% pass rate and an average score of 217 (http://www.aucscope.com/2011/02/usmle-step-1-in-2010/). But the total enrolment in the AUC SOM exceeds 4,300 students (http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html). So if we assume there are 1000 students per year, only 25% of them took Step 1?? Not understanding...

That pass rate number is highly manipulated and massaged.

 

[nancy mcgunter]

it's because they accept students who have no business being in med school. if you have a GPA 3.0 and a 22 on the MCAT like the student whose blog you were reading then you certainly do not belong in med school. They pray on pre-meds who think way too highly of themselves and are convinced that once they enter med school everything will be different and that the MCAT is unfair and unnecessary.

Watch it, man. Plenty of 3.0/22 students go on to become excellent physicians who make a huge a difference in the lives of many, many patients.

 

[neoevolution]

Watch it, man. Plenty of 3.0/22 students go on to become excellent physicians who make a huge a difference in the lives of many, many patients.

Not that they can't improve later on, but they shouldn't be admitted with those stats. There are Caribbean grads who narrowly missed US admission, but plenty more haven't proven themselves academically capable.

 

[nancy mcgunter]

Not that they can't improve later on, but they shouldn't be admitted with those stats. There are Caribbean grads who narrowly missed US admission, but plenty more haven't proven themselves academically capable.

I disagree. It's not about numbers, it's about helping people. The HBCUs have stats in that range (less so recently, but certainly in the past 5-10 years) and they churn out perfectly competent doctors.

 

[235009]

I disagree. It's not about numbers, it's about helping people.

Students who want to "help people" are a dime a dozen, its crucial to admit only those with the intellectual capacity to actually help people rather than be a detriment. The numbers aren't perfect but they are certainly a good indicator of who can handle the rigor of med school.

 

[Chemdude]

I disagree. It's not about numbers, it's about helping people. The HBCUs have stats in that range (less so recently, but certainly in the past 5-10 years) and they churn out perfectly competent doctors.

A 22 (with practice) on the MCAT is horrible..its shows extremely poor critical thinking ability.

 

[nancy mcgunter]

Students who want to "help people" are a dime a dozen, its crucial to admit only those with the intellectual capacity to actually help people rather than be a detriment. The numbers aren't perfect but they are certainly a good indicator of who can handle the rigor of med school.

Again, no. As recently as five years ago, about half the students at at Meharry Medical College had an MCAT score <23. Tell the thousands of economically disadvantaged and medically underserved patients who had their quality of life improved, or even their life saved, that their physician doesn't have the "intellectual capacity" to be a doctor.

 

[gettheleadout]

Again, no. As recently as five years ago, about half the students at at Meharry Medical College had an MCAT score <23. Tell the thousands of economically disadvantaged and medically underserved patients who had their quality of life improved, or even their life saved, that their physician doesn't have the "intellectual capacity" to be a doctor.

Do you know if there's a record of this anywhere? I have no idea where to find school data that's several years old.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Students who want to "help people" are a dime a dozen, its crucial to admit only those with the intellectual capacity to actually help people rather than be a detriment. The numbers aren't perfect but they are certainly a good indicator of who can handle the rigor of med school.

👍

Cultist koolaid mixers want to help people too.... this is an inappropriate metric for "good doctor"

 

[angldrps]

Again, no. As recently as five years ago, about half the students at at Meharry Medical College had an MCAT score <23. Tell the thousands of economically disadvantaged and medically underserved patients who had their quality of life improved, or even their life saved, that their physician doesn't have the "intellectual capacity" to be a doctor.

is this really true😱 ?

 

[Thego2guy]

ooo lala. A refreshing topic and an interesting convo

Anecdotal advice is... anecdotal, but I know a newly trained attending who had a ~3.0 and a 22 on her MCAT. Went to NYCOM...she seems rather competent. Just got a new gig at NYU (not sure where she completed her residency though).

(She has really big problems with her eyes, so that in part contributed to the poor score. Still, idk who she had to blow to get into NYCOM with those stats, but she is smart and she is a competent physician)

 

[nancy mcgunter]

Do you know if there's a record of this anywhere? I have no idea where to find school data that's several years old.

From the 2008-2009 MSAR: Students accepted at Meharry Medical College had a median GPA of 3.46 (sGPA of 3.31) and a median MCAT of 23.1.

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

Heck, even this year WVSOM students had an average sGPA of 3.37 and an average MCAT of 25.

http://www.wvsom.edu/Applicants/applicants-home

It's not all about the numbers, folks.

 

[r1d1]

But the total enrolment in the AUC SOM exceeds 4,300 students (http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html).

You found AUC data on SGU website?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Watch it, man. Plenty of 3.0/22 students go on to become excellent physicians who make a huge a difference in the lives of many, many patients.

Actually, not really. Two bad scores portends problems. For instance, very recently (ie when those scores for meharry were accurate) Meharry had a LESS THAN 50% pass rate on step 1 and a 39% pass rate on step 2

So thanks for playing... but no.

blah, blah blah
she seems rather competent. Just got a new gig at NYU

blah, blah but she is smart and she is a competent physician)

Pre-meds may not be the best judges of what makes a competent physician... just sayin'

 

[theseeker4]

I disagree. It's not about numbers, it's about helping people. The HBCUs have stats in that range (less so recently, but certainly in the past 5-10 years) and they churn out perfectly competent doctors.

Bull. Wanting to "help people" is certainly not sufficient to become a doctor. It is about abilities, and your numbers say a lot about your abilities. The most kind-hearted person in the world might be great for holding your hand while you are dying, but I will take the @**hole who knows his stuff backward and forward every single time if I have a condition no one can figure out. One makes you feel really good as you die, the other can actually save your life......

 

[Rubiconcrossing]

Watch it, man. Plenty of 3.0/22 students go on to become excellent physicians who make a huge a difference in the lives of many, many patients.

I feel this is the exception rather than the rule. A 22 with studying is a rather poor performance and the majority of people with those stats will have a tough time in med school. So by allowing everyone with low stats a shot, you are creating a large group of drop outs with high debt and a small group of "excellent doctors."

I read the blog of the individual who went to the Caribbean and it just reeks of delusion. Its hard to give up on your dream but you have to face facts after repeated failure and piling debt.

 

[Rubiconcrossing]

Bull. Wanting to "help people" is certainly not sufficient to become a doctor. It is about abilities, and your numbers say a lot about your abilities. The most kind-hearted person in the world might be great for holding your hand while you are dying, but I will take the @**hole who knows his stuff backward and forward every single time if I have a condition no one can figure out. One makes you feel really good as you die, the other can actually save your life......

agreed

 

[235009]

Bull. Wanting to "help people" is certainly not sufficient to become a doctor.

There are many other professions where you can help people but can get by with fewer intellectual capabilities than those required to go through med school and become a doctor. The can become nurses, PAs, social workers, public health professionals, etc etc

 

[H Y F R]

There are many other professions where you can help people but can get by with fewer intellectual capabilities than those required to go through med school and become a doctor. The can become nurses, PAs, social workers, public health professionals, etc etc

Do you know what you are implying about nurses? Many I have come across have just as good, and in some cases even better, intellectual capabilities than the physicians they work with.

 

[235009]

Do you know what you are implying about nurses? Many I have come across have just as good, and in some cases even better, intellectual capabilities than the physicians they work with.

i'm not saying nurses are stupid but are you seriously implying that nursing school is as hard as med school or that in general a nurse's job is more intellectually demanding than a doctor's job?

 

[H Y F R]

i'm not saying nurses are stupid but are you seriously implying that nursing school is as hard as med school or that in general a nurse's job is more intellectually demanding than a doctor's job?

You're right, you didn't say nurses are stupid, but you clearly implied that their profession does not require intellectual ability. And no, my statement did not imply anything, let alone that nursing school is as hard as medical school. But I will say that in its own way that a nurse's job can be just as intellectually demanding as a doctor's job. And my statement was that some nurses can thinking more critically than some doctor's do, and anyone who has worked closely with some nurses knows this to be true.

You should really understand what you are implying before you go around and assume what I was implying. In fact, my statement included no implications at all.

 

[gettheleadout]

There are many other professions where you can help people but can get by with fewer intellectual capabilities than those required to go through med school and become a doctor. The can become nurses, PAs, social workers, public health professionals, etc etc

Do you know what you are implying about nurses? Many I have come across have just as good, and in some cases even better, intellectual capabilities than the physicians they work with.

This isn't implying that individuals who become nurses lack the intellectual capacity to become doctors, merely that such capacity is not required to become a nurse. I think that's pretty reasonable.

i'm not saying nurses are stupid but are you seriously implying that nursing school is as hard as med school or that in general a nurse's job is more intellectually demanding than a doctor's job?

👍

You're right, you didn't say nurses are stupid, but you clearly implied that their profession does not require intellectual ability. And no, my statement did not imply anything, let alone that nursing school is as hard as medical school. But I will say that in its own way that a nurse's job can be just as intellectually demanding as a doctor's job. And my statement was that some nurses can thinking more critically than some doctor's do, and anyone who has worked closely with some nurses knows this to be true.

You should really understand what you are implying before you go around and assume what I was implying. In fact, my statement included no implications at all.

Neither did his... He specifically said "fewer intellectual capabilities than those required to become a doctor." This does not mean that nursing does not require intellectual ability, merely that the education and training process requires less than that of becoming a physician.

 

[Thego2guy]

Actually, not really. Two bad scores portends problems. For instance, very recently (ie when those scores for meharry were accurate) Meharry had a LESS THAN 50% pass rate on step 1 and a 39% pass rate on step 2

So thanks for playing... but no.



Pre-meds may not be the best judges of what makes a competent physician... just sayin'

Anectodal advice is anectodal......I guess you missed that when you read my words as "blah blah blah". You're right, not all pre-meds make the best judges, but judging by her Step scores, her specialty, her employment offers, and by her patients....I think that I am not a judge of her competency at all. All of those things speak for themselves.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

i'm not saying nurses are stupid but are you seriously implying that nursing school is as hard as med school or that in general a nurse's job is more intellectually demanding than a doctor's job?

Even though it's true, I wish you would've gotten asked this at your interview:

"So, why didn't you choose nursing?"

That would be my favorite question as an ADCOM

Then just sit back and

 

[tima]

1) Why not PA?

2) Why not nursing?

The ADCOM just wants to hear "I want to have a MD after my name."

Even though it's true, I wish you would've gotten asked this at your interview:

"So, why didn't you choose nursing?"

That would be my favorite question as an ADCOM

Then just sit back and

 

[gettheleadout]

Even though it's true, I wish you would've gotten asked this at your interview:

"So, why didn't you choose nursing?"

That would be my favorite question as an ADCOM

Then just sit back and

I don't see why that should ever be a difficult question for a premed to answer... Nursing and medicine are incredibly different in practice.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

I don't see why that should ever be a difficult question for a premed to answer... Nursing and medicine are incredibly different in practice.

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, how about:

"Why do you NOT want to be a nurse?"

It's a loaded question, I've seen it asked before, and they weren't prepared for it. It was awful.

 

[gettheleadout]

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, how about:

"Why do you NOT want to be a nurse?"

It's a loaded question, I've seen it asked before, and they weren't prepared for it. It was awful.

I can see it going badly if an interviewee hadn't ever considered the question before (if they weren't ready for it as you said) but I still don't think it should be too hard to *not* stereotype the field when you cite what nursing lacks that medicine has. Maybe I'm just idealistic haha.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

I can see it going badly if an interviewee hadn't ever considered the question before (if they weren't ready for it as you said) but I still don't think it should be too hard to *not* stereotype the field when you cite what nursing lacks that medicine has. Maybe I'm just idealistic haha.

Saying nursing doesn't have what medicine has is, in itself, stereotyping.

Try to answer that question yourself. It's difficult to do without a negative implied tone. This is mostly due to the fact the question, in itself as well, is in a negative tone.

That's why it's a question.