CCLCM vs. Yale vs. Penn

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CCLCM vs. Yale vs. Penn

  • CCLCM

    Votes: 62 50.0%

  • Yale

    Votes: 26 21.0%

  • Penn

    Votes: 36 29.0%
  • Total voters
    124
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goldenrose

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Hi everyone,

I just made an account to ask this question. I definitely feel very fortunate and am very thankful to be in this position, but I am now also extremely confused about what to do and would really appreciate any input. I'm from the midwest and currently go to school on the east coast.

I'm currently deciding between CCLCM (Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine), Yale, and Penn, and here are my current thoughts on each school:

I really love just about everything about Yale and think the Yale System (pass/fail, anonymous pre-clinical exams, no shelf exams) fosters an ideal learning and family environment. The students all seem very happy and stress-free and are really enjoying their med school experience. The main problem right now is that my financial aid package is very disappointing, so I would graduate ~$180,000 in debt (excluding interest) while placing a pretty significant financial burden on my parents in the meantime…

CCLCM, on the other hand, offers every student a full-tuition scholarship--not to mention, the cost of living in Cleveland is much more affordable, so no going into debt here! I also really like CCLCM and could definitely see myself enjoying it, although there are certain aspects about the school that I'm uncertain about. My main concern has to do with the fact that it's a very new program (it has only been around for ~10 years), and I'm not sure how much that might affect residency matching compared to a proven/well-known program like Yale or Penn--although it looks like the match lists have been pretty good (to any extent that I can evaluate)! The school itself is very innovative: no grades, no tests, no/very few "lectures" (almost entirely PBL/seminar-based), and the faculty are very invested in their students, especially since there are only 32 per class. I think shelf exams are also optional. So with that in mind, it seems to me that if there was a school out there with a philosophy similar to Yale's, I think it would be the Cleveland Clinic. Nevertheless, I find myself a little concerned with how effective a PBL-based curriculum is in practice--as nice as it sounds in theory (I'm not a big fan of lectures)--and again, I think that hesitation just has to do with the new-ness and unique-ness of the program. Also, in just comparing the atmospheres are each school, I got the impression that the Yale students were a bit more relaxed in general.

As for Penn, I thought Penn was absolutely amazing during my interview visit. Everyone seemed really nice and fun to hang out with, and the collaborative/team-learning environment is very attractive. I think I might be a little concerned with the fact that they still have some semblance of grades, which would inherently add stress to studying and taking exams, as well as required shelf exams. The larger class size also seems like it might be a deterrent to really getting to know your class and personal relationships with faculty, but that's an impression I have that's not really based in anything factual...I guess 160 is really not that big. Penn's financial aid package is better than Yale's, but I would still graduate ~$120,000 in debt and again, only if my parents shoulder a pretty significant financial burden in the meantime...

Thanks so much for reading--sorry the post turned out so long!--and thanks in advance for any feedback you may have! I'd really appreciate any advice or insight, especially regarding the aspects I'm uncertain about: significance of going into debt, how much debt is too much, importance of the "name"/prestige/history, how well a PBL-based curriculum actually works in practice. You all are awesome!
 
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I vote for Penn! You can't go wrong with such a prestigious and well tested program. Perelman was the very first medical school to open in the United States and has spent literally centuries perfecting its curriculum to match its students' needs.

As for your concerns, I had similar ones earlier this cycle as well. However, I learned from some current students that 1) despite the size, your class is very close, and having more students to interact with means that the same group of people will never get stale and you'll have more opportunities to find great friends; and 2) that the H/P/F grading system (only for one year, from Jan 2014 - Dec 2014) is based on a cut off not a curve. That means that the classes are still very collaborative because everyone works together to earn honors, and in some cases 80% of the class does so. You're probably right in that tests will be a bit more stressful than at Yale, and I think it depends on the person whether they can handle that stress. For me, a little extra motivation to study can be a good thing, and will probably help me learn the material better. In fact, Penn holds the record for the highest ever USMLE Step 1 average at 244 (so this must hold true for most of its students!).
 
I would choose CCLCM as long as you are interested in research (since that represents a pretty significant part of the curriculum) and if you can handle all the PBL. You need to be pretty sure about these 2 aspects because if not, you could potentially be miserable there. Based on my interview, there is a lot of pressure to keep up because your whole group is counting on you-- if this type of environment doesn't work for you, then you shouldn't pick CCLCM.

I don't think Penn or Yale is worth all that debt AS LONG AS CCLCM is a good fit.

If you don't think CCLCM is a good fit, then go with the cheaper option. FWIW, I believe that CCLCM is pretty well-established so you shouldn't be worried about it not being "tried and tested."
 
lostintranscrip said:
I would choose CCLCM as long as you are interested in research (since that represents a pretty significant part of the curriculum) and if you can handle all the PBL. You need to be pretty sure about these 2 aspects because if not, you could potentially be miserable there. Based on my interview, there is a lot of pressure to keep up because your whole group is counting on you-- if this type of environment doesn't work for you, then you shouldn't pick CCLCM.

I don't think Penn or Yale is worth all that debt AS LONG AS CCLCM is a good fit.

If you don't think CCLCM is a good fit, then go with the cheaper option. FWIW, I believe that CCLCM is pretty well-established so you shouldn't be worried about it not being "tried and tested."
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Wholeheartedly agree with this.
 
As mentioned above CCLCM has consistently produced great residency applicants that match very well. Any concern over "newness" 10 years out with such a great track record should be cast aside. CCLCM has the same philosophical underpinnings as the Yale System and goes as far as not having grades at all during the clinical year. This is something I have not come across anywhere else.

Ask yourself if you are a good fit for CCLCM. If yes, matriculate.
 
No debt = freedom to pursue whatever you want. Not a fan of PBL but apparently it works well for many people. Cleveland Clinic has a great reputation so you won't be at a disadvantage, although Yale and Penn are pretty spectacular. The debt you take out will sit on 6.8% and 7.9% interest. This interest will accrue throughout medical school and residency. Many people go on to pursue a fellowship as well. If you felt like you belonged, Cleveland Clinic all the way.

You might want to send a message to Yale and Penn to let them know about your situation. They may offer you a sweeter deal.
 
The last thing that you should worry about is the money. After all, that isn't the reason why you're going into medicine, right? As physicians, we will be privileged with good compensation. Besides, from a financial point of view, it isn't really about how much debt you graduate with, it's more about how you go about returning it, and your personal habits will dictate that.

I would take Penn or Yale over CCLCM, whichever one you like better. Both Penn and Yale would afford you with plenty of opportunities to do research, which is one of CCLCM's stronger selling points. In addition, you will be blessed with more classmates, and with more people, the school has the abilities and resources to offer you all more opportunities.
 
hujiao said:
The last thing that you should worry about is the money. After all, that isn't the reason why you're going into medicine, right? As physicians, we will be privileged with good compensation. Besides, from a financial point of view, it isn't really about how much debt you graduate with, it's more about how you go about returning it, and your personal habits will dictate that.
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On the contrary, the *first* thing you should worry about is the money. The financial decisions you make now will affect your quality of life for decades to come. This can be hard to appreciate for the college aged (and college aged at heart) amongst you, but you're not going to want to live like a student for the rest of your life. Some day you're going to want to do things like, say, get married, buy a house, go on vacations, afford to give your children a nice lifestyle, and fund a retirement account. Those are hard things to do when you're in six figure debt.

OP, as the others have said, if you buy into CCLCM's research mission, the decision is a no-brainer. Follow the money. You will have no problem matching to a good residency coming out of CCLCM. If you aren't that into research and don't want to spend the fifth year, then Penn is the next best option. $60,000 is still a lot of money to save, and you won't get $60,000 of a better education at Yale versus Penn. Plus Philly is a lot nicer of a place to live than New Haven.
 
hujiao said:
The last thing that you should worry about is the money. After all, that isn't the reason why you're going into medicine, right? As physicians, we will be privileged with good compensation. Besides, from a financial point of view, it isn't really about how much debt you graduate with, it's more about how you go about returning it, and your personal habits will dictate that.

I would take Penn or Yale over CCLCM, whichever one you like better. Both Penn and Yale would afford you with plenty of opportunities to do research, which is one of CCLCM's stronger selling points. In addition, you will be blessed with more classmates, and with more people, the school has the abilities and resources to offer you all more opportunities.
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1 post? Sounds like someone is on the CCLCM high hold list.

+1 to what QofQuimica said. From what you've stated, it sounds like CCLCM is the best for you as long as you are into research.
 
I do not believe the financial difference is as significant as people are making it out to be. Although CCLCM pays your tuition, living expenses are still on you. So you will still be graduating with 60-70K in debt. Also, you will be able to start working one year earlier by not having to take a 5th year in medical school. That will cost you about 200K in salary once you become a doctor. Assume you get to pocket 140K due to taxes. This means the true cost of CCLCM is actually about 200-210K. With this math, CCLCM is the worst financially.
 
CCCLM's reputation is actually excellent, especially in terms of medical research. Especially since you would be essentially paying nothing, I think you should definitely go there
 
DoctorInScrubs said:
I do not believe the financial difference is as significant as people are making it out to be. Although CCLCM pays your tuition, living expenses are still on you. So you will still be graduating with 60-70K in debt. Also, you will be able to start working one year earlier by not having to take a 5th year in medical school. That will cost you about 200K in salary once you become a doctor. Assume you get to pocket 140K due to taxes. This means the true cost of CCLCM is actually about 200-210K. With this math, CCLCM is the worst financially.
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this is what I meant about returning your debt.

@riddler and just because i had one post doesn't mean I am on the high hold list. fwiw i will be applying to med school next year, and having been in a different career before i have a different view on money. of course, you don't have to believe me either, but then arguing about this is just pointless. what I wanted to offer to OP was a different view about finances, and seems like I am not the only one.
 
Thank you all so much for your help! I really, really appreciate the input and advice from all sides. With all of this in mind, I think I am leaning towards CCLCM. The integrated research curriculum is definitely one of the reasons I was attracted to the program in the first place, so that's a positive. And the fifth year isn't really a deterrent because I would be interested in the 5th year options for research at both Yale and Penn (although I guess if I were saddled with debt and the prospect of ever-accruing interest, that probably wouldn't be wise to pursue at either place). Just based on having observed it in action a couple times, I think I would really enjoy PBL--and apparently CCLCM does have "lectures," although they are much more interactive than the traditional large lectures we're used to from college and are sometimes taught through a problem-based approach as well (which is why I guess they're called "seminars").

Anyway, thanks so much for all your input, everyone!! This was incredibly helpful! 🙂
 
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goldenrose said:
Thank you all so much for your help! I really, really appreciate the input and advice from all sides. With all of this in mind, I think I am leaning towards CCLCM. The integrated research curriculum is definitely one of the reasons I was attracted to the program in the first place, so that's a positive. And the fifth year isn't really a deterrent because I would be interested in the 5th year options for research at both Yale and Penn (although I guess if I were saddled with debt and the prospect of ever-accruing interest, that probably wouldn't be wise to pursue at either place). Just based on having observed it in action a couple times, I think I would really enjoy PBL--and apparently CCLCM does have "lectures," although they are much more interactive than the traditional large lectures we're used to from college and are sometimes taught through a problem-based approach as well (which is why I guess they're called "seminars").

Anyway, thanks so much for all your input, everyone!! This was incredibly helpful! 🙂
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I think CCLCM would be an excellent fit after reading this post, and I strongly second your decision to go there, FWIW. Their match list is always fantastic, no debt it great, Cleveland Clinic is a tertiary and sometimes quaternary hospital, the class is small and together, the research is built into the curriculum, and PBL sounds like it'll do you well. Best of luck! 🙂
 
pachewisc said:
I think CCLCM would be an excellent fit after reading this post, and I strongly second your decision to go there, FWIW. Their match list is always fantastic, no debt it great, Cleveland Clinic is a tertiary and sometimes quaternary hospital, the class is small and together, the research is built into the curriculum, and PBL sounds like it'll do you well. Best of luck! 🙂
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Thank you so much!! 🙂 Best of luck to you, too!
 
goldenrose said:
Thank you all so much for your help! I really, really appreciate the input and advice from all sides. With all of this in mind, I think I am leaning towards CCLCM. The integrated research curriculum is definitely one of the reasons I was attracted to the program in the first place, so that's a positive. And the fifth year isn't really a deterrent because I would be interested in the 5th year options for research at both Yale and Penn (although I guess if I were saddled with debt and the prospect of ever-accruing interest, that probably wouldn't be wise to pursue at either place). Just based on having observed it in action a couple times, I think I would really enjoy PBL--and apparently CCLCM does have "lectures," although they are much more interactive than the traditional large lectures we're used to from college and are sometimes taught through a problem-based approach as well (which is why I guess they're called "seminars").

Anyway, thanks so much for all your input, everyone!! This was incredibly helpful! 🙂
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We have a winner. 👍

If you want to do a 5th year anyway choose the place that will be debt-free.
 
Looks pretty good to me. Definitely an east cost/midwest bias, but I'd expect that based on the school's location. Almost every match was either a competitive specialty or something less competitive at a recognizable name.
 
seracus said:
Is anyone else a little underwhelmed with CCLCM's match list?

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2013.html
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Locations include some of the best from coast to coast:
Cleveland Clinic, Pitt, UCSF, Harvard, Vandy, Yale/Columbia, Northwestern, Michigan, UChicago, UCLA, UTSW, Childrens National, Penn, WashU

Specialties include the most competitive ones:
RadOnc, Ortho, Gas, Rads, Neuro, Optho, Derm

And it's worth adding that a lot of those non-competitive specialty matches are at very competitive locations and programs. Not sure what list you're looking at, but that's quite impressive for a list of only ~32 students.
 
pachewisc said:
Locations include some of the best from coast to coast:
Cleveland Clinic, Pitt, UCSF, Harvard, Vandy, Yale/Columbia, Northwestern, Michigan, UChicago, UCLA, UTSW, Childrens National, Penn, WashU

Specialties include the most competitive ones:
RadOnc, Ortho, Gas, Rads, Neuro, Optho, Derm

And it's worth adding that a lot of those non-competitive specialty matches are at very competitive locations and programs. Not sure what list you're looking at, but that's quite impressive for a list of only ~32 students.
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Yup, I definitely agree! And as I think has been mentioned elsewhere, we should probably be a bit wary when looking at match lists because we never know what exactly the person had wanted and might have been looking for at that point in his/her life. I think having a class size of 32 might magnify this effect (although this claim is unsupported), but regardless, I think the CCLCM match lists have been strong every year since its first class in 2009 (see below for links to all of them). I also think the fact that competitive residency programs have been so receptive to a new school so quickly reflects strongly on the program as well as the reputation the Cleveland Clinic.

https://cclcm.ccf.org//cclcmdependencies/docs/match_2012.pdf
https://cclcm.ccf.org/cclcmdependencies/docs/match_results_2011.pdf
http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/docs/match_results_2010.pdf
http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/docs/match_results_2009b.pdf

And if it wasn't already obvious through what I've written, I am totally, 100% in love with CCLCM, as I finally made a decision and will be matriculating come July! Thanks again for all of your help and input, everyone!
 
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