Cheated on attendance

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I put them on their own level simply b/c of school reputation and the extra weight that carries, either consciously or unconsciously throughout life. Networking and connections too, are unique at those schools.

81, eh? Maybe we'll see each other on the interview trail!
Reputation is an odd thing. I'm from Cali and Berkeley carried so much weight growing up, I assumed it was like Stanford or Harvard until seeing numbers on the student bodies.

I'm applying next cycle, needed this year to check the research box
 
@22031 Alum curious how prevalent inflated egos are at the residency level? I've heard conflicting reports.

In terms of acting like anyone cares where you came from? Rarely. By residency, the top tier med school grads are just as disillusioned with their educations as the ones from state schools. Attitudes like a certain poster tends to display have a way of disappearing pretty quickly.

...there's always one or two exceptions though. 🙄 The class behind me had one in particular.
 
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Reputation is an odd thing. I'm from Cali and Berkeley carried so much weight growing up, I assumed it was like Stanford or Harvard until seeing numbers on the student bodies.

I'm applying next cycle, needed this year to check the research box
Oh ok. You're gonna crush that cycle then.

Yeah there's definitely location bias, in many countries it's Stanford Harvard Berkeley Caltech, 1-4
 
In terms of acting like anyone cares where you came from? Rarely. By residency, the top tier med school grads are just as disillusioned with their educations as the ones from state schools. Attitudes like a certain poster tends to display have a way of disappearing pretty quickly.

...there's always one or two exceptions though. 🙄 The class behind me had one in particular.
But who? Who displays cockiness and elitism? Is it Goro???
 
Because when nature calls, nature waits for no one.

Personally though, I think that there is a lot more to this story than the OP has mentioned. Even in large classes of 200+ people, it's surprising how well professors can notice which faces are consistently showing up and which ones aren't. This leads me to believe that if the OP had been showing up consistently to class, his professor would have believed his bathroom story.

Him not escalating this situation to the Dean supports my belief that there's more to this story than we think.

My takeaway: The OP posted this story on SDN to see if anyone would buy it. Which no one did.

The story is incomplete or it's a troll thread (sorry for hunting, @mehc012)

OP had only one post, last activity being Wednesday at 10:42 PM. Given the theme of this topic, OP did something pretty bad that led him rightfully to get an F at best, or even a suspension/expulsion at worst.
 
"Clickergate"

I'm just gonna leave this here...
It makes sense to me to have required attendance for small classes as there may be a lot of discussions, especially true if there's a wait list and the kids skipping class are taking spots from people who would've contributed a lot more. So what strikes me here is that the prof expected nobody to use Google during their take home online midterm. I know mehc is convinced nobody cheated at her LAC in those situations...but strikes me as setting up a system to reward cheaters when there are almost certainly going to be some.
 
It makes sense to me to have required attendance for small classes as there may be a lot of discussions, especially true if there's a wait list and the kids skipping class are taking spots from people who would've contributed a lot more. So what strikes me here is that the prof expected nobody to use Google during their take home online midterm. I know mehc is convinced nobody cheated at her LAC in those situations...but strikes me as setting up a system to reward cheaters when there are almost certainly going to be some.

This looked to be a very large class (272 people), so I doubt there were a lot of necessary discussions happening.

Yeah, perhaps the professor was foolishly optimistic, but the irony here is that the class was an ethics class...

Also setting up a system that may reward cheaters doesn't make cheating right (I know you weren't implying this, but I think it as worth stating anyway).
 
Not related to med schools but in the business world, where I sadly and currently reside, the cheaters on finance and accounting exams became the subjects of SEC investigations. Obviously, not every single cheater went on to become an authority figure at the respective companies but the moral of this story is:

If you have an issue and need to leave class, explain to the professor after. Immediately after. Not when you get summoned by someone to be told you failed.

If you cheat, and get caught, expect to fail. Why would you cheat?! Seriously? Why? How do you expect to become a physician by cheating? Are you going to cheat on the MCAT or USMLE or boards or ... what happens when you cheat on a simple thing and then get away with it and then that escalates?

the business people I know who were investigated for fraud by the SEC did not simply start out by lying on the financial statements. It started small. A little extra revenue recognition here or there, and then maybe that turned into a little expense reduction here and there; and then you rev + and exp - and then toss in a little off sheet balance sheet manipulation of compensation and/or maybe a hidden contract that was failing but held AR reserves ... and then ... boom...

those little here and there's turned into a full blown SEC investigation and some orange jumpsuits.

One other little story more related to healthcare: there is a giant health care insurer that gets federal money to pay claims for welfare and seniors (Medicaid/care) ... this company found they could slide the fees paid in by the insurers (seniors) and then deny claims by same people so they got a little extra from not using all the money from the fed and then they kept what people were paying in. It started small. Just a little thing. Nothing to keep anyone from really paying attention.

But someone did. Not just the SEC but the FBI and a few other acronym'd organizations. The company had a swat team in, told people hands off the computers and then proceeded to shut the company down. Jail time, penalties, whistleblower lawsuit, etc.

7 years later ... after resolving that issue ... the company? they're in trouble again for the same damn thing.

Cheating on little things now AND getting away with it generally = bigger, worse things later on.
 
This looked to be a very large class (272 people), so I doubt there were a lot of necessary discussions happening.

Yeah, perhaps the professor was foolishly optimistic, but the irony here is that the class was an ethics class...

Also setting up a system that may reward cheaters doesn't make cheating right (I know you weren't implying this, but I think it as worth stating anyway).
Wow! Their sports religion ethics class had more enrollment than our Ochem? Must be an awesome class. But in that case it's stupid to require attendance.

yeah i may be a cynic but i think if washu students were given those instructions more than half would get on Google too. The prof is way too optimistic/naive
 
At my school we have those 'random' 30 second clicker question attendance checks as well. People just get up and leave after them. It's actually pretty funny in the huge lecture classes when 100 people just all get up and leave 20 minutes into the lecture.
 
At my school we have those 'random' 30 second clicker question attendance checks as well. People just get up and leave after them. It's actually pretty funny in the huge lecture classes when 100 people just all get up and leave 20 minutes into the lecture.
I like this. Sends a clear message to the prof that their policy is stupid and forcing them to learn a certain way does nothing to enhance their education. Ofc the prof could just start doing half the clicker checks in the last 5 mins
 
You'd think they'd have come off as dickish in their interviews for MD and residency. Or does the God complex not develop until you're done training
It is never apparent when they are hired.
The institution getting rid of them has a vested interest in not letting anyone know.
This is why personal connections with those who did not write their LOR's but knows them, is important.
 
Ive heard it "how they treat those that can give them nothing". I wonder if what got them in trouble was being rude to patients tho or Co workers

I've also heard this going very badly for some interviewers that mistreat receptionists and the like.
 
The first impression anywhere - business, school, etc - is the receptionist or parking lot attendant. ALWAYS treat them very, very well. Not because they might say something but because it's just the right thing to do. Period.
 
I'm willing to bet that professor has a small penis.
 
I think you guys all need to chill out about professors that do this. Is it a silly policy? Probably, but it's their class and if they want people to come and not just show up for tests, that's their prerogative.
 
I think you guys all need to chill out about professors that do this. Is it a silly policy? Probably, but it's their class and if they want people to come and not just show up for tests, that's their prerogative.
But they should motivate students to attend by being a better teacher than a textbook, not by giving points for sitting there spacing out for an hour
 
ownership of learning is primarily on the student not the professor

where it appears that some see those points as meaningless, I see them as easy points = A
 
ownership of learning is primarily on the student not the professor

where it appears that some see those points as meaningless, I see them as easy points = A
When class grading is set up for a certain distribution, the points become meaningless because everyone gets them. Now you're just working with 90% of the grade to outperform each other with
 
But they should motivate students to attend by being a better teacher than a textbook, not by giving points for sitting there spacing out for an hour
And people should be motivated to excel in their occupations for reasons other than $$$. Theory vs reality
 
those that cheat won't get them 😉 or rather, those that cheat and get caught won't get them, nor will the students who don't actively engage and learn
 
And people should be motivated to excel in their occupations for reasons other than $$$. Theory vs reality

from personal experience, I can only say that $$$ only matters for so long; then it becomes something entirely different
 
It's usually condescension.
I see this very frequently in everyday life, and it makes me so sad. I see all sorts of people behave very rudely toward receptionists, restaurant servers, parking attendants, janitors, and everyone in between. Several times, I have actually heard people utter the phrase: "I pay your wages, so..." I know I'm being naïve and optimistic, but I don't understand how people don't feel that they should treat everyone with respect just because everyone deserves it, not because of what others can do for you.
 
I think you guys all need to chill out about professors that do this. Is it a silly policy? Probably, but it's their class and if they want people to come and not just show up for tests, that's their prerogative.

Let's be real 2% is nothing, and I wouldn't even worry about it if I wanted to skip the class. Which makes me wonder why OP even needed someone to sign in; 1 missing lecture is going to have nearly 0 effect on your grade.
 
Let's be real 2% is nothing, and I wouldn't even worry about it if I wanted to skip the class. Which makes me wonder why OP even needed someone to sign in; 1 missing lecture is going to have nearly 0 effect on your grade.
Prime example of a neurotic pre-med, my friend.

I had a friend go see school counseling because he missed a bio homework that cost him 1% of the semester grade. No joke.
 
Thank you everyone for your help.

To everyone who thinks there's more to the story-- you're right I guess. The policy is set up so that there's a random question you have to answer in order to get points. The prof looked back and my friend and I had similar answers all semester, which is totally normal because he told us at the beginning of the year that collaboration is allowed on clicker questions. He used this as evidence that we had been switching clickers for the entire semester.

I finally posted this because I learned that you have to report IAs on applications. I thought since May (when I got my honor board final statement) that I would just roll with the F and hopefully make up for it in my GPA. Even though this isn't showing up on my transcript, it's still in my judicial record-- which means I have to report it right? My understanding is that the professor "recommended the punishment" and the school "enforced it". If I explain this properly in the section that asks for previous IAs, do I still have a chance at med school?

I didn't bring this up to the dean because I didn't know I could. I appealed to the appeals board for the punishment being too high but they stood by it. The statement said "this is the last avenue for appeals, after this all decisions are final". Should I bring it up to the dean next year? The hearing officer in charge of my case tried convincing the professor and failed. Please help.
 
Thank you everyone for your help.

To everyone who thinks there's more to the story-- you're right I guess. The policy is set up so that there's a random question you have to answer in order to get points. The prof looked back and my friend and I had similar answers all semester, which is totally normal because he told us at the beginning of the year that collaboration is allowed on clicker questions. He used this as evidence that we had been switching clickers for the entire semester.

I finally posted this because I learned that you have to report IAs on applications. I thought since May (when I got my honor board final statement) that I would just roll with the F and hopefully make up for it in my GPA. Even though this isn't showing up on my transcript, it's still in my judicial record-- which means I have to report it right? My understanding is that the professor "recommended the punishment" and the school "enforced it". If I explain this properly in the section that asks for previous IAs, do I still have a chance at med school?

I didn't bring this up to the dean because I didn't know I could. I appealed to the appeals board for the punishment being too high but they stood by it. The statement said "this is the last avenue for appeals, after this all decisions are final". Should I bring it up to the dean next year? The hearing officer in charge of my case tried convincing the professor and failed. Please help.
He reported you for having the same answers...?
There's generally what, like 5 choices per question? I'd imagine most people would have similar answers....I refuse to fully buy this sequence of events that tbh doesn't make much sense.

I believe this is just something you're going to have to live with.
 
He reported you for having the same answers...?
There's generally what, like 5 choices per question? I'd imagine most people would have similar answers....I refuse to fully buy this sequence of events that tbh doesn't make much sense.

I believe this is just something you're going to have to live with.

I believe it. A professor at my school became legendary for giving a clicker question to his morning class, giving the same question to his afternoon class while switching the letter that had the right answer. He then reported everyone who picked the letter that was right for the morning class to the academic judiciary. Some professors just take this stuff to an insane level.
 
I believe it. A professor at my school became legendary for giving a clicker question to his morning class, giving the same question to his afternoon class while switching the letter that had the right answer. He then reported everyone who picked the letter that was right for the morning class to the academic judiciary. Some professors just take this stuff to an insane level.
Right but in your scenario many people would be reported. I'm under the impression that the OP is alone on this one.

And wow, that's a cruddy clicker system; glad my school didn't even consider that!
 
Again, not judging anyone. But, the severity of the punishment should be irrelevant if you don't try and cheat the system to begin with (not directed at you OP.)
 
I'm not sure how info in "judicial record" gets out to us vs "on transcript". But if the prompt asks "Have you been the subject of an IA?", then you're going to have to answer truthfully.

My main concern is what your answer will be when you're asked about the F in interviews.

I'm not sanguine about your chances.

I do believe that you can overcome this with a long period of exemplary behavior, and owning the transgression.



Thank you everyone for your help.

To everyone who thinks there's more to the story-- you're right I guess. The policy is set up so that there's a random question you have to answer in order to get points. The prof looked back and my friend and I had similar answers all semester, which is totally normal because he told us at the beginning of the year that collaboration is allowed on clicker questions. He used this as evidence that we had been switching clickers for the entire semester.

I finally posted this because I learned that you have to report IAs on applications. I thought since May (when I got my honor board final statement) that I would just roll with the F and hopefully make up for it in my GPA. Even though this isn't showing up on my transcript, it's still in my judicial record-- which means I have to report it right? My understanding is that the professor "recommended the punishment" and the school "enforced it". If I explain this properly in the section that asks for previous IAs, do I still have a chance at med school?

I didn't bring this up to the dean because I didn't know I could. I appealed to the appeals board for the punishment being too high but they stood by it. The statement said "this is the last avenue for appeals, after this all decisions are final". Should I bring it up to the dean next year? The hearing officer in charge of my case tried convincing the professor and failed. Please help.
 
I am a faculty member and I have, sad to say, some experience with students in my grad program being accused of academic misconduct. I also have a family member who served on the judicial appeals board for undergrads so I have some familiarity with that too.

Only an instructor can assign a grade to a student.

Schools have a published policy on accusations of academic misconduct that includes a formal process and an appeals process.

In some cases, the dean in charge of academic misconduct will "plea bargain" with a student and faculty member: the student foregoes the right to a hearing and an appeal in exchange for not having a record of institutional action on their record and instead accepts a lower grade (usually an F) for the course. It is somewhat like agreeing to accept a misdemeanor rather than risk being convicted of a felony if you went to trial.

So I describe this as a preface to what happened here which was that the student, it seems, did go before the judicial board after the teacher accused the student of cheating. The honor board heard the case. Upon consultation with the teacher, the decision was that the teacher would give the student an F for the course. Remember, only the teacher can assign a grade. An alternative that the school can take independent of an individual instructor is to suspend or expel a student. The student appealed the decision to administer a penalty for this behavior which given that the student was appealing it seems to be a penalty for cheating. The appeals board upheld the decision of the honor board.

This does seem to be a cut and dry institutional action that must be reported as @Goro notes while I was writing this missive. I concur that it is going to take years of exemplary behavior to make up for this transgression. We don't want cheaters in our class and we'd be foolish to admit convicted cheaters with the expectation that they won't cheat in the future. When such a student does so in the future, the question comes back at the adcom, "Why did you let that one in if you knew they had a history of this behavior?"
 
My learned colleague, has, as usual, cut to the chase on the thoughts we Adcoms have with cheating issues. In addition to what her comments, there is also the mindset that we have of "we get so many candidates who don't have cheating in their background, why take the risk with this guy?"



This does seem to be a cut and dry institutional action that must be reported as @Goro notes while I was writing this missive. I concur that it is going to take years of exemplary behavior to make up for this transgression. We don't want cheaters in our class and we'd be foolish to admit convicted cheaters with the expectation that they won't cheat in the future. When such a student does so in the future, the question comes back at the adcom, "Why did you let that one in if you knew they had a history of this behavior?"[/QUOTE]
 
@LizzyM @Goro Just curious, how would you guys define "exemplary behavior?" Not cheating in the future is a given, of course.
 
Periods of academic excellence AND being in positions of responsibility. They don't have to be 100% simultaneous.

Meaning, having other people trust you. This could be varied as:

being a youth counselor
handling money
being a TA
being a caregiver or babysitter
having a job with oversight for others.
Service in the military, or first responders.

As you can surmise, it will take years to redeem one's reputation. It doesn't always work..look at Eliot Spitzer, who could have been the first Jewish president of the US.



@LizzyM @Goro Just curious, how would you guys define "exemplary behavior?" Not cheating in the future is a given, of course.
 
my school sees "clicking in" for another student as cheating and an IA. Some kids get caught with like 9 i clickers in their backpacks by the TA's or professors
 
my school sees "clicking in" for another student as cheating and an IA. Some kids get caught with like 9 i clickers in their backpacks by the TA's or professors
So what it's a crime to buy ten clickers for my own use in case I misplace them once a week ????
 
So what it's a crime to buy ten clickers for my own use in case I misplace them once a week ????
as long as they're all registered to your student id, you're chilling
 
my school sees "clicking in" for another student as cheating and an IA. Some kids get caught with like 9 i clickers in their backpacks by the TA's or professors

Ha I remember laughing at one kid sitting in the front row with like 4 different clickers on his desk. Luckily for him it seems like that professor didnt care. It is definitely something that most people I know(some of who will definitely get into med school) have done. Still at my school the consequences are clear and always in the syllabus so you cant really complain if you get caught.
 
I believe it. A professor at my school became legendary for giving a clicker question to his morning class, giving the same question to his afternoon class while switching the letter that had the right answer. He then reported everyone who picked the letter that was right for the morning class to the academic judiciary. Some professors just take this stuff to an insane level.
If he reported a student for having the answer that was correct for the morning class on only one day, that's completely ridiculous. Multiple choice questions generally only have 4 or 5 possible answers, so if a student had no idea and guessed, that student would have a 20-25% chance of guessing the answer that was correct for the morning purely by coincidence. It is also entirely possible that the student really did think that the answer that was assigned to the letter that was correct for the morning was the right one. If a student had consistently picked a letter that was correct for the morning class and incorrect for the afternoon class, that would be reasonable grounds for reporting that student. However, if it was only for one day, that very well could have just been coincidence, and I hope the academic board that he reported the students to dismissed the cases and let the professor know that he had not even come close to meeting the burden of proof.
 
If he reported a student for having the answer that was correct for the morning class on only one day, that's completely ridiculous. Multiple choice questions generally only have 4 or 5 possible answers, so if a student had no idea and guessed, that student would have a 20-25% chance of guessing the answer that was correct for the morning purely by coincidence. It is also entirely possible that the student really did think that the answer that was assigned to the letter that was correct for the morning was the right one. If a student had consistently picked a letter that was correct for the morning class and incorrect for the afternoon class, that would be reasonable grounds for reporting that student. However, if it was only for one day, that very well could have just been coincidence, and I hope the academic board that he reported the students to dismissed the cases and let the professor know that he had not even come close to meeting the burden of proof.

Im not arguing with you brother, it absolutely was absurd. I think the students that were reported basically had to write an essay on why cheating is bad and were off the hook other than that. Still ridiculous though.
 
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