Choosing DO OVER MD?

[J1515]

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Story/advice given by someone who hasn't entered medical school yet <status = pre-med>

stopped reading.

 

[swamprat]

stopped reading.

excellent rebuttal. the fact is as a pre-med/human i can actually talk about how the different degrees are portrayed among people i know and my own experiences. and that is how i've seen it. it doesn't take a doctorate or some magical "medical student" status underneath my name to be able to record your observations on a message board. when talking about the match/residency placement - fine you win you had the experience, but that still doesn't mean jack to me, whether I wanted to be a neurosurgeon or an internist I'd go with US MD over US DO.

 

[willen101383]

All I can say to these threads at this point is lol. Not worth it anymore. 🙄

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'll say the same thing I said to my misinformed friend earlier - how many DOs apply to plastics? I can tell you no one in my class did. We did have a handful of future surgeons though. I'm assuming you didn't know that you can also go through general surgery and do a plastics fellowship after 5 years if you are really hell bent on this "amazing be all end all" field of medicine /sarcasm off


If there are only 10 people applying for plastics it is. See if you can find numbers.

You forgot 31 DO students matched to allopathic general surgery last cycle. Add that to the 88 per year. Also tell me how many DO applicants applied for surgery overall. Was it 88? Because that gives DOs a 100% match rate.

People can twist and squirm all they want to support their preconceived bias towards DOs. The fact remains that doors are not automatically closed just because you're a DO. This is coming from someone who has been through the process with good board scores and clinical grades vs. MD students or residents who are posting what they've heard. When an individual can't break a 220 on the USMLE it closes doors. When you get to 3rd year and act disinterested it closes doors. When you get to 4th year and don't know how to treat CHF on the floors it closes doors. The school you go to does not close doors.

Well here are the numbers: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/erasmdphd/table39-erasschltype2009bb.pdf

16 people applied plastics (md) and none of the AOA plastics programs do ERAS. So all 16 tried to get MD plastics and only 1 did. So that is a 6% match rate.

There were at 380 Osteo General surgery applicants. Including the osteo programs there are roughly 120 osteo students in GS. Add the 16 in prelim programs and you get 136. I don't know how many are in prelim GS osteo programs but I cannot imagine it is over the 88 in categorical programs. So at the very best (assuming there are 88 prelim spots) the match rate is less than a 60% match rate.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Second, concerning the allopathic match, 177 US MD students applied for plastics. Only 35 non US MD students applied (they combine IMG and DO).

There were only 19 DO/IMG applicants to dermatology this year as opposed to 181 US MD applicants.

Rookie mistake for someone who has been through the match. As you know, you cannot enter the match unless you have been interviewed. So the above data reflects non-US MD students who completed at least one interview. We have no idea how many applied and received no interview invites.

For all you know that could've been the only DO who applied and the rest could've been IMGs.

Yes, that would help your case, but it begs another question: why would these specialites that allopathic students fight tooth and nail for be so unappealing to osteopathic students?

Not bad considering you claimed this door was completely closed to us poor DOs, eh?

No reasonable person, speaking without any sense of hyperbole, would say that DOs matching into competitive allopathic residencies is utterly impossible. But when the probability is so low as to be considered perverse, well, I wouldn't call that much of a victory.

You also failed to mention all the osteopathic residencies in these fields that only DO students can match into.

Yes, go to opportunities.osteopathic.org and see for yourself.

 

[JaggerPlate]

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/erasmdphd/table42-erasrace4usosteopathic2009.pdf

11 people applied plastics and none of the AOA plastics programs do ERAS. So that is a 9% match rate.

There were 260 General surgery applicants. Including the osteo programs there are roughly 120 osteo students in GS.

I've heard there are only 100 AOA g-surg graduates a year, so assuming they all want plastics and assuming they all have an equal shot at one of the 2 year residencies, wouldn't that be 6%, just straight up numbers game? Also, if there are 120, that's still 5% (these programs are only going to take people who did AOA g-surg), and this isn't counting the DOs who matched ACGME g-surg and plan on doing a non-integrated, 3 year PRS residency post g-surg.

 

[JaggerPlate]

excellent rebuttal. the fact is as a pre-med/human i can actually talk about how the different degrees are portrayed among people i know and my own experiences. and that is how i've seen it. it doesn't take a doctorate or some magical "medical student" status underneath my name to be able to record your observations on a message board. when talking about the match/residency placement - fine you win you had the experience, but that still doesn't mean jack to me, whether I wanted to be a neurosurgeon or an internist I'd go with US MD over US DO.

It may not be a fool proof rebuttal, but look at it from his POV. J is a DO resident who has finished DO school, taken the boards, rotated through this spots, (I assume) applied for these residencies, etc. He now has people who have never gone through any of these processes telling him how it works, what to expect, etc, with authority? You have to understand how he would be dismissive to say the least. It would be like if you had a friend who just graduated high school trying to school you in pre-med studies and how to apply for med school, you know?

 

[swamprat]

It may not be a fool proof rebuttal, but look at it from his POV. J is a DO resident who has finished DO school, taken the boards, rotated through this spots, (I assume) applied for these residencies, etc. He now has people who have never gone through any of these processes telling him how it works, what to expect, etc, with authority? You have to understand how he would be dismissive to say the least. It would be like if you had a friend who just graduated high school trying to school you in pre-med studies and how to apply for med school, you know?

I completely agree with you there, that was not my argument to begin with. Other than what a doctor told me about the advantages of being an MD vs DO w the match I don't know anything about it. My real argument was my experience with other people, family members, non pre-med friends and just other random people I have spoken to about med school. Its more of a popularity contest as I see it and as dumb as it sounds but that was what I was really arguing. All else being equal why not go for the more popular and better known degree.

Edit: I'd also like to add a funny little story about my best friend. I told him I was going to DO school and he was like 'wtf is that' and i explained it to him. He's like thats stupid just go for the MD (he is a business major doesn't know anything about the process etc). He continued on to say how he would never see a DO and when he looks for a doctor its MD. 2 months later he comes to me and was like "i got to tell you something funny, that @$$hole doctor that I see, I looked more closely into it and hes a DO" I started laughing.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah, I mean, whatever, it's statistically easier to match competitive stuff through ACGME, I'm sure. I just find this discussion funny when phrases like 'closing doors' are thrown around, when the doors being mentioned are also slammed shut and air sealed to 95% of MD students as well (ie derm and integrated PRS). Especially when, despite the location or their supposed quality (again, I'm going to side with J as he has actually rotated through some of these programs, I'm sure), AOA residencies exist strictly for DO students.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Edit: I'd also like to add a funny little story about my best friend. I told him I was going to DO school and he was like 'wtf is that' and i explained it to him. He's like thats stupid just go for the MD (he is a business major doesn't know anything about the process etc). He continued on to say how he would never see a DO and when he looks for a doctor its MD. 2 months later he comes to me and was like "i got to tell you something funny, that @$$hole doctor that I see, I looked more closely into it and hes a DO" I started laughing.

Yup, people are chronically misinformed when it comes to this stuff. I always tell people that I bet you've seen a DO and didn't realize it. I've actually had a few people see my PCP for as long as I have and not realize he is a DO.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I just visited TouroNY, and I loved it.

Ugh, I wouldn't touch anything with the name "Touro" on it with a 40 foot pole. Here is an illustration of why.

What are the cons to getting residencies? I know there are some, but at this point I don't really even know what residency I would like to get into. And if my scores are good enough, does that really even matter?

If you go the DO route and want to do an osteopathic residency, obviously there is no discrimination. The only question is whether you feel the residency options are adequate. You can search the available programs at opportunities.osteopathic.org. I would advise you to search around, visit some websites, and try to get a feel for the training opportunities.

You can also visit the allopathic counterpart FREIDA and compare.

Please note, there are some programs that are dual accredited by both the ACGME (alloapathic) and AOA (osteopathic).

Now for the hard part. If you are a DO applying to allopathic programs, there are three basic flavors:

1. You will be considered on your merits regardless of your degree
2. You will be considered but not given equal footing to MD applicants
3. You will not be considered

What types of programs you will encounter depends on your specialty, the geographic area, and the individual quirks of various institutions, but don't let anyone try to convince you that anti-DO discrimination does not exist, and that you will never have to chart a course around it.

In case you are wondering, the best resident in my own training program was a DO, and I have worked with several others. Over the years they have all given me their candid opinions of the ups and downs of their respective professional paths.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ugh, I wouldn't touch anything with the name "Touro" on it with a 40 foot pole. Here is an illustration of why.

Tend to agree.

 

[IDBasco]

First of all you're wrong...a DO matched to allopathic plastics last year in Kansas.

Second, concerning the allopathic match, 177 US MD students applied for plastics. Only 35 non US MD students applied (they combine IMG and DO). One of those 35 applicants was a DO student who ended up matching to the plastics program in Kansas. For all you know that could've been the only DO who applied and the rest could've been IMGs. Not bad considering you claimed this door was completely closed to us poor DOs, eh?

There were only 19 DO/IMG applicants to dermatology this year as opposed to 181 US MD applicants.

You also failed to mention all the osteopathic residencies in these fields that only DO students can match into.

Seriously, just stop speaking about things you have no clue about.

This lists how many applied to what. 16 to plastics- but is this combined AOA and ACGME numbers or just ACGME? I'm not sure. I know it isn't AOA only.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/erasmdphd/table39-erasschltype2009bb.pdf

 

[Black Adder]

Ugh, I wouldn't touch anything with the name "Touro" on it with a 40 foot pole. Here is an illustration of why.



If you go the DO route and want to do an osteopathic residency, obviously there is no discrimination. The only question is whether you feel the residency options are adequate. You can search the available programs at opportunities.osteopathic.org. I would advise you to search around, visit some websites, and try to get a feel for the training opportunities.

You can also visit the allopathic counterpart FREIDA and compare.

Please note, there are some programs that are dual accredited by both the ACGME (alloapathic) and AOA (osteopathic).

Now for the hard part. If you are a DO applying to allopathic programs, there are three basic flavors:

1. You will be considered on your merits regardless of your degree
2. You will be considered but not given equal footing to MD applicants
3. You will not be considered

What types of programs you will encounter depends on your specialty, the geographic area, and the individual quirks of various institutions, but don't let anyone try to convince you that anti-DO discrimination does not exist, and that you will never have to chart a course around it.

In case you are wondering, the best resident in my own training program was a DO, and I have worked with several others. Over the years they have all given me their candid opinions of the ups and downs of their respective professional paths.

Thanks for posting this link. Very insightful.... I've read enough on SDN to not have applied to any Touro's myself, but for others out there in the application process, they should certainly educate themselves about the schools they are applying to before dishing out a quarter of a million dollars in tuition to seriously crappy schools...

 

[Instatewaiter]

This lists how many applied to what. 16 to plastics- but is this combined AOA and ACGME numbers or just ACGME? I'm not sure. I know it isn't AOA only.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/erasmdphd/table39-erasschltype2009bb.pdf

It is not AOA because none of the AOA plastics programs use ERAS (per the AOA website). The 16 applying were only applying to ACGME programs.

So really 1/16 is not a great match rate.

 

[J1515]

excellent rebuttal. the fact is as a pre-med/human i can actually talk about how the different degrees are portrayed among people i know and my own experiences. and that is how i've seen it. it doesn't take a doctorate or some magical "medical student" status underneath my name to be able to record your observations on a message board. .

Observations of your 5 or 10 laypeople vs. observations of thousands of patients I've been exposed to. That's all.

 

[J1515]

Well here are the numbers: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/erasmdphd/table39-erasschltype2009bb.pdf

16 people applied plastics (md) and none of the AOA plastics programs do ERAS. So all 16 tried to get MD plastics and only 1 did. So that is a 6% match rate.

There were at 380 Osteo General surgery applicants. Including the osteo programs there are roughly 120 osteo students in GS. Add the 16 in prelim programs and you get 136. I don't know how many are in prelim GS osteo programs but I cannot imagine it is over the 88 in categorical programs. So at the very best (assuming there are 88 prelim spots) the match rate is less than a 60% match rate.

I honestly don't have time right now to look over all these numbers. Needless to say, you've just proven that the door is not closed to DO students who are qualified. What percentage of DO students applying to surgery are actually qualified? That's a different story.

It is not AOA because none of the AOA plastics programs use ERAS (per the AOA website). The 16 applying were only applying to ACGME programs.

So really 1/16 is not a great match rate.

What were the qualifications of the other 15? Did they have any publications? Did they break a 97 on the USMLE? Did they honor all their rotations? Did they bother doing an audition rotation and did they impress? You have no idea (nor do I). 1/16 is just about right for something as competitive as allopathic plastics coming from the DO world where we are admitted to medical school with overall lower MCATs and GPAs and perform more poorly on the USMLE than our MD counterparts. The opportunities are there.

 

[J1515]

Rookie mistake for someone who has been through the match. As you know, you cannot enter the match unless you have been interviewed. So the above data reflects non-US MD students who completed at least one interview. We have no idea how many applied and received no interview invites.

The point was that there are far fewer DO applicants than MDs. And just for the record, technically you can enter the match and rank any program even if you aren't interviewed.

Yes, that would help your case, but it begs another question: why would these specialites that allopathic students fight tooth and nail for be so unappealing to osteopathic students?

I don't know. Ask them. Despite having the board scores and grades for neurosurgery and dermatology, I had zero interest. The point was that there are too many unknown variables to consider... including the number of DO applicants. Obviously I don't think DOs have a 100% match rate in plastics.

No reasonable person, speaking without any sense of hyperbole, would say that DOs matching into competitive allopathic residencies is utterly impossible. But when the probability is so low as to be considered perverse, well, I wouldn't call that much of a victory.

As someone who has been through the match coming from a DO school, I maintain my stance that it's the applicant that closes doors for him or herself, not the letters. Perhaps it was different 10 years ago. The probability of matching into competitive allo programs as a DO is low because osteopathic schools admit students who are less academically qualified than MD schools (note I'm not saying who will make a good doctor nor do I care - please nobody bring up the "they look at the whole applicant" crap). You cannot score average or slightly above average on the USMLE, apply to 15-20 surgery programs and then blame the letters for not matching.

 

[Parts Unknown]

The point was that there are far fewer DO applicants than MDs. And just for the record, technically you can enter the match and rank any program even if you aren't interviewed.

So are you suggesting that DO students are ranking programs they have not interviewed at? In any case, I accept your tacit admission that you were mistaken.

I don't know. Ask them.

I don't need to. The data confirms the common perception: domestic allopathic dermatology applicants are so numerous and have such sick qualifications that programs can easily fill without even looking at DOs or IMGs.

As someone who has been through the match coming from a DO school, I maintain my stance that it's the applicant that closes doors for him or herself, not the letters.

But we aren't really discussing individuals, we are discussing populations. As a population, and compared to US allopathic students, DOs have a higher tendency to go into primary care specialties (IM, FP, Peds, OB) as well as psychiatry and EM. Osteopathic residency programs tend to be in community hospitals rather than tertiary academic medical centers. As a population, DO applicants going through the NRMP will have to assess how DO-friendly the residency programs they apply to are, and how that friendliness (or lack thereof) will affect their chances in the match.

If you understand that, and understand how your choice of school can affect both your opportunities and the odds of you going down various paths, then you have made an informed choice.

 

[HoboCommander]

Whew. I think I just got my first taste of SDN DO vs. MD bitterness.

It's probably a mix of factors that explain the residency stats. I wholeheartedly agree that DO applicants as a whole likely aren't thinking about doing "lifestyle" specialties. I'm also willing to bet that this is the biggest factor. Given the nature of DO secondary apps, I'm confident successful applicants know exactly where they're headed.

On the other hand, one does have to take into account the generally lower gpa/MCAT averages of matriculants. That said, there are plenty of MD-qualified DO matriculants. Plus, if we want to talk about "stupid" students, we know who's the only one making spelling mistakes in this thread... and coming to the wrong forum... on a Thursday night... to cause trouble. Yeah. Feels like being trapped in a room with rabid pre-meds again.

Related to grades, and correct me if I'm wrong - DO applicants to ACGME residencies are required to take the USMLE, yes? So, preparation for the COMLEX and USMLE has to happen simultaneously. You could say that the tests are on the same knowledge so there should be identical results, but that's foolish. It's like saying the SAT and ACT are the exact same test. Even better - it's like saying that an IQ test is applicable to cross-cultural comparison.

Finally - I'm sure there are biases from the older generation of physicians on both sides.

My thoughts exactly. I never found much data but I don't think DO students do as well as MD students on their USMLE/boards. This by itself would make it harder to match into competitive specialties. If you look at the DO match lists there are many DO's that match into competitive MD residencies, so if someone really wants to I'm sure it's possible. So what if there are places that don't accept DO's, there's a bunch of places that do. DO's are gaining acceptance now that there are more schools opening.

 

[J1515]

So are you suggesting that DO students are ranking programs they have not interviewed at? In any case, I accept your tacit admission that you were mistaken.

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. You completely missed the point I was trying to make in the original post in that there are far fewer DO applicants to plastics than there are MD applicants. End of story.

I don't need to. The data confirms the common perception: domestic allopathic dermatology applicants are so numerous and have such sick qualifications that programs can easily fill without even looking at DOs or IMGs.

Who's perception? Your perception? DOs and IMGs have been accepted to allopathic dermatology programs in the past, so obviously once again you are wrong in saying these programs won't look at DOs or IMGs. Again, no doors have been closed, much to your dismay.

But we aren't really discussing individuals, we are discussing populations. As a population, and compared to US allopathic students, DOs have a higher tendency to go into primary care specialties (IM, FP, Peds, OB) as well as psychiatry and EM.

Dude, the majority of allopathic applicants go into those same fields as well (look at the numbers). Your bias against DOs is causing you to only look at one side of the coin. If you want to talk about populations, I made it clear before that DOs overall as a population are academically less qualified, hence why you don't see a larger representation in the competitive allopathic world. That's because of the individual, not because they are DOs.

Osteopathic residency programs tend to be in community hospitals rather than tertiary academic medical centers.

That has nothing to do with the teaching that occurs, which again I can speak of from first hand experience at some of these places (unless you too have rotated at some of these hospitals, then by all means tell me what you didn't like about them). Case loads are adequate despite the hospital "only" having 400-500 beds since there are fewer residents competing for cases. Some of these so-called "terrible" community hospitals are level 1 trauma centers, just fyi. I should also add there are tons of allopathic residencies at community hospitals as well. Are you suggesting your MD counterparts are getting a subpar education at these community hospitals?

As a population, DO applicants going through the NRMP will have to assess how DO-friendly the residency programs they apply to are, and how that friendliness (or lack thereof) will affect their chances in the match.

Yup. I've heard second hand that Columbia won't interview DO students for their IM program. I can't speak from experience on that hospital. But the fact of the matter is, the majority of programs out there, especially around DO schools are fine with qualified DOs.

If you understand that, and understand how your choice of school can affect both your opportunities and the odds of you going down various paths, then you have made an informed choice.

The point is you can end up in neurosurgery wherever you go. If you need to stay near your family or want to do research with a certain doctor at osteopathic medical school X, you have not closed any doors as you can still match into competitive specialties (allo or osteo) if you are qualified. Being happy, getting the best grades you possibly can, and going where you think you'll receive the best education should be your priorities when choosing a school. If you can do that at MD school X, great. If you can do that at DO school Y, so be it.

You can continue to argue until you're blue in the face. I've gone through the process and rotated at the hospitals alongside 280 other DO students in my class and will continue to speak from first hand experience. I love when people talk about the osteopathic residencies and how they're in bad hospitals, bad neighborhoods, all the other typical cliches that get thrown around SDN...Meanwhile none of you have even rotated through there. I guess you can learn all you need to know from a hospital's website /sarcasm off.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. You completely missed the point I was trying to make in the original post in that there are far fewer DO applicants to plastics than there are MD applicants. End of story.

I got your point, you missed mine. I demonstrated that we have no idea how many applicants there are to any specialty, DO or MD, just how many ranked programs.

Who's perception? Your perception?

Yes, and every other medical trainee in the country. Except you.

DOs and IMGs have been accepted to allopathic dermatology programs in the past, so obviously once again you are wrong in saying these programs won't look at DOs or IMGs. Again, no doors have been closed, much to your dismay.

Go back and read my statement again. I said the programs can fill without looking at DOs and IMGs, not that they won't consider them or rank any of them. As an aside, you should really refresh yourself on the concept of impossible versus highly unlikely.

Dude, the majority of allopathic applicants go into those same fields as well (look at the numbers).

Yes, but DOs go in higher proportion. That's why I used the term "higher tendency."

If you want to talk about populations, I made it clear before that DOs overall as a population are academically less qualified, hence why you don't see a larger representation in the competitive allopathic world. That's because of the individual, not because they are DOs.

I think that's part of it, and I commend your cojones for saying it. But I also think it's fair to say that between two similarly qualified applicants, an allopathic program will likely rank the MD student above the DO student. This biases the match against osteopathic trainees down to the lowest levels.

Are you suggesting your MD counterparts are getting a subpar education at these community hospitals?

No, I am merely stating a fact. With this knowledge, a prospective DO student can decide whether a community training program better fits his/her needs. That's all.

Yup. I've heard second hand that Columbia won't interview DO students for their IM program. I can't speak from experience on that hospital. But the fact of the matter is, the majority of programs out there, especially around DO schools are fine with qualified DOs.

I hope that is true, but for an osteopathic medical student considering IM programs the field just went from "all" to "the majority." Sort of a shame if you're qualified.

You can continue to argue until you're blue in the face. I've gone through the process and rotated at the hospitals alongside 280 other DO students in my class and will continue to speak from first hand experience. I love when people talk about the osteopathic residencies and how they're in bad hospitals, bad neighborhoods, all the other typical cliches that get thrown around SDN...Meanwhile none of you have even rotated through there.

So to truly judge the process one would have to matriculate at a DO school and rotate through these places? Seems a little excessive. Then again, all of medicine is that way: you don't know if you really want it until it's too late to turn back.

 

[J1515]

I got your point, you missed mine. I demonstrated that we have no idea how many applicants there are to any specialty, DO or MD, just how many ranked programs.

Fine, you win. There are 10,000 DO applicants who applied to plastics. We all want it. Only 16 ranked it and only 1 of us got it.

Yes, and every other medical trainee in the country. Except you.

Ah so now you are speaking for every medical trainee in the country lol. Game over.

 

[WDeagle]

I know nothing about residency placements; however, I have read step 1 passing rates. I believe it was something like 90% of US MD students pass step 1. 80% of DO students pass step 1. 65% of IMG pass step 1. These numbers could be due to two things.

1) less academically inclined pool of students leading to lower scores on step 1
2) poorer instruction

I tend to believe it is number 1. DO schools have lower mcat scores and undergrad gpas and it has been shown that these 2 factors do correlate to eventual step 1 scores. Therefore, it makes sense that they have a lower pass rate.

Anyway, I'm an MD student and I do not see any difference in DO or MD instruction. I personally think it's all academic snobery. Both degrees are the same in my mind. If a student proves that they can pass the same exams and schooling that I have, I see them as equal.

With that being said, the individuals that you will have to impress will be mostly academic snobs who would sell their left nut to be affiliated with Harvard or Hopkins (kind of like how Brian Kelly sold his left nut to coach at Notre Dame).

I go to a lesser known US MD school and would likely be at a dissadvantage applying against someone from Harvard. Look at their match list. Every single person got into a top residency. Are you honestly going to tell me that one person from Harvard wasn't a bum in medical school? There wasn't one person at Harvard who didn't get below a 200? There wasn't one person who failed a few classes? There wasn't one person from Harvard who didn't screw up along the way?

This same logic will be applied to you when you apply against MD students. You might have better stats than an MD student but residency directors will resort to academic snobery again and see the MD degree as superior just like they see a degree from Harvard as superior. Is your DO degree differnt? No. Will residency directors think this? Maybe....Maybe not.

While i generally agree with your post there is one thing i would like to point out. As someone who is trying to prepare for USMLE and COMLEX at the same time i have noticed that the tests are pretty different. While their is alot of overlap it is still really difficult to prepare for two board exams at the same time. It seems like my choice is to blow off COMLEX and just try to pass and then attempt to do really well on USMLE or to prep well for COMLEX and just take the USMLE to see how i do. I can imagine that people who choose the second option bring down the passing rates for DO's on the USMLE. I think if their was a dual licensing exam for both MD's and DO's the pass rates would probably be more comparable.

 

[HimeMomo]

This argument is so stupid. Put aside everything else more people know MD than DO.

-No no, knowing someone is knowing that person, not knowing their title. If I am a doctor, I rather people know my name than what follows it. I want them to want to see me and refer me to others because I am good at what I do. Since the D.O philosophy branched itself from M.D, of course there is a longer history of M.D. So hands down, more people know the existence of the M.D degree. But that doesn't mean they are robots and are programmed to only trust M.Ds. There are plenty of screw ups and bad M.D doctors who don't have any patience of any sort to be a good doctor. Many patients have switched, and will continue to do so as long as these "cocky M.Ds" keep putting them down.

So even if residency placement etc was equal, if you could be in a more well-known "group," why would you choose otherwise unless you are one of those weird people from high school who wore black and chains and ate lunch by themselves.

-You are metaphorically referring D.O students/doctors as the social outcasts?? I believe it should be the "new kids on the block" or "the transfer student" or the "foreign exchange student" not the WEIRDPEOPLE in BLACK AND CHAINS. I think your science courses have clouded your liberal art skills...

Your(myself included) in the pre-osteopathic forum arguing with people in all levels of the DO hierarchy. There are always going to be people that say they chose DO over MD when they really just didn't have the grades or luck to get into an MD school. The joke is that no one will admit it.

-Actually this would be 100% true, if not for those students with good grades and have never bothered to apply to M.D schools. Because their first choice is D.O schools. There are plenty of M.D wannabes ending up in D.O schools probably biting back their self-fulfilling shame that no one else gave to them but themselves. They feel bad that they didn't have the grades to be there. The rest of the students are actually taking advantage of OMM, extracurricular activities, etc, while these "M.D wannabes" lock themselves in a room studying hard, and be those anti-social people who wants to score REALLY HIGH on their USMLE or else they will shame their entire family and eventually be sad and angry for the rest of their life.



Seriously, just because you are one of those people who need D.O schools as a backup just in case you didn't get into M.D schools, doesn't mean you represent the rest of the D.O students that are happy where they are.

 

[Sam212]

'Close certain doors' is another one of those SDN phrases that people automatically repeat, and it kind of cracks me up. I think it's in reference to residencies, but I don't think people realize what it takes to get these coveted ACGME spots. Do you honestly think just because you attend an MD school, you will have a decent shot at derm, or ent, or integrated plastics? Doors can close on you at any point. Doors could slam shut after your pre-clinical grades. Doors can deadbolt after Step 1, or LORs, or anything. The majority of people who go to MD schools do well, match into a variety of specialties, from easy to decently difficult, but the people who match derm, plastics, etc, are just absolute rockstars. I have a friend who is an MS-1 at UCLA. He got a 39 on the MCAT, 4.0 in chemical engineering, published multiple times, etc, etc, he took his first test a while back (I was talking to him while he was studying) and received an 80 on it. He told me he'd never worked so hard for anything in his life, and he didn't even understand the nature of the people who were getting 90+ on the exam. Of course, all these people want to go into derm, ortho, integrated PRS, et al. He said he was pretty sure at that point that he wasn't even going to gun for PRS anymore.

So what is my point ... These 'doors' that are closed to DO students from the ACGME side, aren't exactly flying off the hinges for 99% of MD students either. This also isn't even taking into account the AOA residencies. Now, is there a way better chance that an MD student will land these crazy ACGME residencies? Of course. However, don't be surprised in four years down the road when these people who choose the path of 'more resistance' land spots in just as competitive as specialties, even with these closed doors.

Certain doors can be and in fact are closed. You refer to MD kids who match in derm, ent, and plastics as superstars. Well, look at the charting outcomes, you don't necessarily have to be a superstar to match derm for example.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

MD kids who scored between 220 and 230 and applied derm, 60% of them matched. You think a USMLE score between 220 and 230 is superstarish? It's just slightly above average. There's no way any DO applicant is matching with that kind of score at any ACGME derm program. And therefore, that door is in fact closed to above average DO students. Compare that to above average MD students, they can be just above average and still match 60% of the time, as far as step I is concerned. Statistics are even more favorable for specialties with more spots, like Rads and Ortho. Check it out for yourself. Are certain doors closed, hell yeah they are! You aint matching ACGME rads unless you are a rockstar as a DO, forget about Ortho, that's like winning a lottery.

Of course, you can't graduate dead last in your MD class and expect to match these specialties, but you don't have to be a superstar either, far from it actually. So yes, take that MD acceptance every time, and I am a DO.

P.S, I know that there are AOA residencies for all the competitive fields that DOs can match into, however, I am arguing about the ACGME residencies, where we get our rears handed to us in certain fields.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

There's no way any DO applicant is matching with that kind of score at any ACGME derm program. And therefore, that door is in fact closed to above average DO students. Compare that to above average MD students, they can be just above average and still match 60% of the time, as far as step I is concerned. Statistics are even more favorable for specialties with more spots, like Rads and Ortho. Check it out for yourself. Are certain doors closed, hell yeah they are! You aint matching ACGME rads unless you are a rockstar as a DO, forget about Ortho, that's like winning a lottery.

Statistics are more favorable for MD... but before making a statement like that, can we see an actual reference to confirm?

It appears you are just guessing and don't have actual #'s on this.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

Seriously, just because you are one of those people who need D.O schools as a backup just in case you didn't get into M.D schools, doesn't mean you represent the rest of the D.O students that are happy where they are.

With all every's arguing, I believe there is a simple conclusion.

• DO's match % is going to be slightly lower than MD (b/t 10-20%) for various reasons of which you couldn't pinpoint down to one thing.
  
• SUPER competitive residencies are going to have a higher % of MD, because again the #'s are slightly favorable for MD and there are more MDs in the pool.
  
• SUPER competitive residencies won't be availble to most DO's OR MD's. They are super competitive, even if you are MD there is a 90%+ chance you won't make it anyhow.
• Making the argument that you should go MD if you want plastics or rads is silly because even MDs who want these are very likely not going to get it. If you are weighing MD vs DO, you likely aren't going to be in plastics (odds are not in your favor)
• In the end, you determine your level of success. Is it harder finding women if you are really short? Probably, but it doesn't exclude you from the game. Is it a bit harder to succeed in corporate America if you are a minority or a female? Maybe, but it doesn't exclude you from the game. If we looked at #'s of female executive in the Fortune 500 it wouldn't be 50%, yet some make it.

c'est la vie

 

[Sam212]

Statistics are more favorable for MD... but before making a statement like that, can we see an actual reference to confirm?

It appears you are just guessing and don't have actual #'s on this.

I don't, but I can assure you that you are not matching ACGME derm as a DO with a 220-230 score, unless of course the director is your father or someone along those lines. I think there was only one DO who matched ACGME derm last year from Nova at New Mexico, and from what I have heard, she was a superstar. A friend of mine told me that she was strongly advised against applying ACGME derm by many at Nova simply because they had never heard of any DO matching before. You can infer whatever you want from the story though.

 

[Sam212]

With all every's arguing, I believe there is a simple conclusion.

• DO's match % is going to be slightly lower than MD (b/t 10-20%) for various reasons of which you couldn't pinpoint down to one thing.
  
• SUPER competitive residencies are going to have a higher % of MD, because again the #'s are slightly favorable for MD and there are more MDs in the pool.
  
• SUPER competitive residencies won't be availble to most DO's OR MD's. They are super competitive, even if you are MD there is a 90%+ chance you won't make it anyhow.
• Making the argument that you should go MD if you want plastics or rads is silly because even MDs who want these are very likely not going to get it. If you are weighing MD vs DO, you likely aren't going to be in plastics (odds are not in your favor)
• In the end, you determine your level of success. Is it harder finding women if you are really short? Probably, but it doesn't exclude you from the game. Is it a bit harder to succeed in corporate America if you are a minority or a female? Maybe, but it doesn't exclude you from the game. If we looked at #'s of female executive in the Fortune 500 it wouldn't be 50%, yet some make it.

c'est la vie

I just posted the link to NRMP match outcomes, and according to that document, there's definitely higher than 90% chance that you'd make it in any field as an MD student. Hell, you can be below average and still have around 60% chance of matching in Rads and Ortho and be slightly above average to have similar chance of matching into derm. Can we say that about DO students? I am afraid not, at least as far as ACGME residencies are concerned.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Certain doors can be and in fact are closed. You refer to MD kids who match in derm, ent, and plastics as superstars. Well, look at the charting outcomes, you don't necessarily have to be a superstar to match derm for example.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

MD kids who scored between 220 and 230 and applied derm, 60% of them matched. You think a USMLE score between 220 and 230 is superstarish? It's just slightly above average. There's no way any DO applicant is matching with that kind of score at any ACGME derm program. And therefore, that door is in fact closed to above average DO students. Compare that to above average MD students, they can be just above average and still match 60% of the time, as far as step I is concerned. Statistics are even more favorable for specialties with more spots, like Rads and Ortho. Check it out for yourself. Are certain doors closed, hell yeah they are! You aint matching ACGME rads unless you are a rockstar as a DO, forget about Ortho, that's like winning a lottery.

Of course, you can't graduate dead last in your MD class and expect to match these specialties, but you don't have to be a superstar either, far from it actually. So yes, take that MD acceptance every time, and I am a DO.

P.S, I know that there are AOA residencies for all the competitive fields that DOs can match into, however, I am arguing about the ACGME residencies, where we get our rears handed to us in certain fields.

You have no idea what their entire application looks like. What if they had a 230, but perfect pre-clinical grades, amazing LORs from big name derm guys and came from top 10 MD schools??? Go look at the derm threads ... check out the heartbreaking stories of people with 260s that don't match, etc. Also, a DO in MD ortho is a winning lottery ticket? LECOM-Bradenton had one in their first graduating class.

My point stands ... 'doors slam shut' constantly, for MD kids too. You said it yourself. Am I going to sit here and claim DOs have an equal footing in ACGME derm residencies? Hahaha, no. But I will say that getting that MD doesn't automatically entitle you to integrated plastics.

Edit: thanks for linking a 281 page PDF file ... I'll get back to you when I'm done with that one.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I don't, but I can assure you that you are not matching ACGME derm as a DO with a 220-230 score, unless of course the director is your father or someone along those lines. I think there was only one DO who matched ACGME derm last year from Nova at New Mexico, and from what I have heard, she was a superstar. A friend of mine told me that she was strongly advised against applying ACGME derm by many at Nova simply because they had never heard of any DO matching before. You can infer whatever you want from the story though.

I think I'll infer that a door wasn't slammed shut in her face ...

Exception that proves the rule? Maybe, but not more so than the MD student who matches derm with a sub 220 USMLE (like you were stating).

 

[Sam212]

I think I'll infer that a door wasn't slammed shut in her face ...

Exception that proves the rule? Maybe, but not more so than the MD student who matches derm with a sub 220 USMLE (like you were stating).

Except that there were 36 of those (with scores between 220-230) students who matched from the MD side and only one DO (who from what I have heard was a superstar).

I think we both agree though, much much better chances for any residency on ACGME side as an MD

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think we both agree though, much much better chances for any residency on ACGME side as an MD

Without a doubt. I've also never had a problem with this, for one reason - our residencies (as sparse or whatever as they may be) are completely closed to MD students. I know I'm young and could eat that statement ... but it seems pretty just to me atm.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Fine, you win. There are 10,000 DO applicants who applied to plastics. We all want it. Only 16 ranked it and only 1 of us got it.

Good, now we're getting somewhere.

Ah so now you are speaking for every medical trainee in the country lol. Game over.

Indeed.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

I just posted the link to NRMP match outcomes, and according to that document, there's definitely higher than 90% chance that you'd make it in any field as an MD student. Hell, you can be below average and still have around 60% chance of matching in Rads and Ortho and be slightly above average to have similar chance of matching into derm. Can we say that about DO students? I am afraid not, at least as far as ACGME residencies are concerned.

lol, re-read my post. I didn't contradict anything you've said. DO have a lower probability, and especially on super competitive residencies.

If you are weighing DO vs MD, chances are you are not gunning for rads.

If you are having trouble losing weight constantly, it is unlikely you are going to be a competitive championship body builder. I think most people understand this concept.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

You have no idea what their entire application looks like. What if they had a 230, but perfect pre-clinical grades, amazing LORs from big name derm guys and came from top 10 MD schools??? Go look at the derm threads ... check out the heartbreaking stories of people with 260s that don't match, etc. Also, a DO in MD ortho is a winning lottery ticket? LECOM-Bradenton had one in their first graduating class.

My point stands ... 'doors slam shut' constantly, for MD kids too. You said it yourself. Am I going to sit here and claim DOs have an equal footing in ACGME derm residencies? Hahaha, no. But I will say that getting that MD doesn't automatically entitle you to integrated plastics.

Edit: thanks for linking a 281 page PDF file ... I'll get back to you when I'm done with that one.

This is correct. Most MD students are also not getting rads matches.

This would be like you making an argument that it is best to go to Stanford to be a pro golfer, rather than a community college.

Yeah, probably true. But in the end the level of talent and person determines where they go. Will one option open a few more doors? sure. but that is all it will do.

 

[InTheMaking]

Granted I go to an MD school, but I would caution against choosing the DO school for anything outside of practical reasons (cheaper, closer to home, curriculum etc.). Tangible differences.

I assure you we treat the "whole patient". DO schools do not have a monopoly on common sense.

Why would you "caution" it?

I assure you all DO students have quality education on everything including manipulation, something that you DO NOT have.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

Except that there were 36 of those (with scores between 220-230) students who matched from the MD side and only one DO (who from what I have heard was a superstar).

I think we both agree though, much much better chances for any residency on ACGME side as an MD

I would say slightly better. Choosing a small score group of 36 matches out of thousands and thousands of people is hardly representative of the whole.

PLUS, as everyone has already mentioned, you don't know the quality of the applicant.

Whenever I hear people talking about best way to match, they always mention that the #'s don't take you all the way. Personality/Letters/ECs/Interview/etc all add up. DOs 5 years ago had COMPLETELY different acceptance stats than DOs today or even 5 years from now. As DOs are becoming more competitive we will see their match %'s rise even more.

MDs have always been harder to get into, so of course they are slightly better chances. I would need to see greater than 25% difference to say it is a huge difference, and not across one speciality, across them all.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

I just posted the link to NRMP match outcomes, and according to that document, there's definitely higher than 90% chance that you'd make it in any field as an MD student. Hell, you can be below average and still have around 60% chance of matching in Rads and Ortho and be slightly above average to have similar chance of matching into derm. Can we say that about DO students? I am afraid not, at least as far as ACGME residencies are concerned.

Sam, I've looked at this document for hours before.

One thing it doesn't tell you is how many DOs applied for each residency and there is also no way to tell the quality of the applicant outside of #'s.

The only thing you are seeing is match vs didn't. Everyone knows the allo match is 90% plus, but the DO match was 70% plus.

You actually have no stats to prove your "Chances" on matching Rads and orthos, please site page # and stat. Site how many MDs applied and didn't make it and how many DOs applied and didn't make it.

Hint: I don't think you have any of these #'s but are just making generalizations based upon earlier data.

 

[DrBowtie]

Why would you "caution" it?

I assure you all DO students have quality education on everything including manipulation, something that you DO NOT have.

If you re-read my post, you'll see I included curriculum differences as a legit practical reason if you really thought you wanted to learn AND use OMT in practice.

My main point was to caution against choosing a school over a perceived philosophical difference.

 

[Cheshyre]

If you re-read my post, you'll see I included curriculum differences as a legit practical reason if you really thought you wanted to learn AND use OMT in practice.

My main point was to caution against choosing a school over a perceived philosophical difference.

Seeing as philosophical differences can translate into curricular and other more tangible differences, I'd say philosophical difference is a perfectly legitimate factor to consider when choosing schools. Even if choosing between only MD schools, to say that each MD school is philosophically identical is absurd.

Whether or not each school lives up to its values is up to the applicant to decide.

 

[DrBowtie]

Seeing as philosophical differences can translate into curricular and other more tangible differences, I'd say philosophical difference is a perfectly legitimate factor to consider when choosing schools. Even if choosing between only MD schools, to say that each MD school is philosophically identical is absurd.

Whether or not each school lives up to its values is up to the applicant to decide.

Then I would say choose off of the manifested tangible differences and how the "philosophy" is translated into action.

I was merely pointing out that someone should not choose a DO school over the MD school just because they want to treat the "whole patient". I assure you that every medical school uses common sense and does that.

 

[InTheMaking]

Then I would say choose off of the manifested tangible differences and how the "philosophy" is translated into action.

I was merely pointing out that someone should not choose a DO school over the MD school just because they want to treat the "whole patient". I assure you that every medical school uses common sense and does that.

My apologies. I misread your post.

 

[wishintobedoc]

Your(myself included) in the pre-osteopathic forum arguing with people in all levels of the DO hierarchy. There are always going to be people that say they chose DO over MD when they really just didn't have the grades or luck to get into an MD school. The joke is that no one will admit it. Before my allo acceptances I was planning on going to CCOM and I was already telling my friends how tough the MD competition was and that I'd rather start med school next year than take a year off and reapply since I am not going for a super competitive field.

So for me, appearance matters and I would rather have a US MD than a US DO. Sorry. OK, time to start ripping this long paragraph apart 😀 - GO

Wow....I think it is pretty funny how you think no one would choose DO over MD. For some people it just works for them. I have an MD interview coming up and to be honest it doesn't matter if I get accepted or not. I will be going to a great DO school. In the end I will most likely end up doing the DO program because that is what fits my life best.

I usually am not rude on here, but from what I saw of CCOM your personality fits their program perfectly. I thought most of the students were arrogant and rude. There are probably several awesome students there but my experience was terrible.

And to add to another one of your posts about your friend seeing a DO that sucked, there are going to be bad MDs too. I personally think it depends 100% on the person and not the letters behind their name. When it comes down to it I just want to see patients and do the best job I can as a physician. If I didn't make it to med school I was going to do PA school. Let me guess everyone who hates DOs thinks PAs are terrible too. I think a lot of us forget it is about treating people not the stupid letters behind your name.

 

[Cheshyre]

.

 

[BassCaster]

Eh. Disagree partly. I'm sure most medical schools in country do have at least some desire to produce the 'ideal' graduates - empathetic, skilled (and in a perfect world, good looking) doctors. However, I've heard too many horror stories about the atmosphere at high-end academic institutions (as well as lived through my own) to believe all schools care about producing graduates that will be caring doctors. Seeing as many first impressions about the quality of a school may come simply from the school's matriculant stats and those of successful graduates, well, the incentive to ignore non-academic qualities is high.

Also, no school can force its graduates to think about patients in any sort of aspect unless the student is willing to accept said teachings. That schools that do care about non-academic qualities likely attempt to choose applicants that fit their school values/mission. It's easier than forcing them to conform to a philosophy they don't believe it. It'd be like trying to force the wrong puzzle pieces together. Since, academically, DO and MD institutions are close enough for me to find the differences insignificant (ignoring OMM for now since that by itself could be the topic for a whole new thread), the philosophical differences gain weight in my decisions when choosing schools.

I realize that I'm essentially picking at the idea of intent vs. action. If two individuals perform the same action, does intent matter? For me - yes. Two students travel to [insert random area] to [insert charitable work]. One cares about helping others during their summer break (which some people in America would argue is not possible, that selfish desires are the rule), the other cares about resume padding for medical school. There will be differences in action both in the future and when the students aren't under scrutiny.

Like any other factor (location, research opportunities, whatever) that one might consider when choosing a school, different factors belong to different applicants. Putting weight on intangible philosophy (and therefore, philosophy thoroughly based only in perception) may seem absurd only if your goals have nothing to do with it. If we assume that I've had just as much medical exposure as the average pre-med (and how many applicants have done CPR in an emergency situation?) and that goals are created by priorities gained through one's experiences, then we can assume that my goals, although different, are as valid as anybody else's. No, intangible philosophy alone is not the biggest factor for me when considering medical schools. However, given the proper context, it could be what tips the scales.

Finally, let me be clear since the internet has a horrible way of bringing out the worst in people (I mean, really, pianoman was getting rather hostile). I appreciate your ideas and for the most part agree. I think you posted originally with the intent of helping potential medical school students choose an institution where they'll be happy - solidly respectable. My post isn't really designed to argue against you. It's more a way for me to play with the idea of perception and to pick at my own thoughts. You just happened to provide an interesting point for me to jump off of. A weird way to spend Saturday to be sure, but, weirder things have happened. In my opinion, the best medical professionals (doctors, medics, nurses, or otherwise) are slightly off-kilter.

I usually only read sdn w/ my laptop while sitting on the porcelain throne. Was almost finished with my business and about done catching up with this thread and then you throw this 500 word essay at me? Damn You! My legs are falling asleep!

 

[TexasPhysician]

Seeing as philosophical differences can translate into curricular and other more tangible differences, I'd say philosophical difference is a perfectly legitimate factor to consider when choosing schools. Even if choosing between only MD schools, to say that each MD school is philosophically identical is absurd.

Whether or not each school lives up to its values is up to the applicant to decide.

Philosophy of the school? You have got to be kidding me. Decide what your philosophy/ethics/morals whatever are and stick with them. It doesn't matter at all what a few select faculty think. You won't spend much time with them anyway.

 

[Cheshyre]

I usually only read sdn w/ my laptop while sitting on the porcelain throne. Was almost finished with my business and about done catching up with this thread and then you throw this 500 word essay at me? Damn You! My legs are falling asleep!

After writing that little piece, I realize that I have no words to give you. I'm so conflicted on what to feel about your post that... I can't even begin to make up a conclusion here.

 

[DrBowtie]

Again, I'm just saying that philosophies look nice on admissions brochures, but in reality don't make an impact on your education. Your own philosophy overrides all of the touchy-feely aspects of the curriculum that the school includes.