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Take your time with the decision
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Choosing the "right" DO school?
- Thread starter Kool-Aid-Kid
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Thanks for the information, but why did you re-post this?
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Sorry, was on a friends account
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Any tips on how to avoid getting into this situation before you're a third year? Obviously asking students who've attended or are currently attending but are there any things to look for? Specific questions to ask? Seems like it would be easy to get caught up in the excitement of interviews and acceptances and miss things that should have been red flags.
no real surprise for new schools or the do schools at the bottom of the list. that's why people generally try to go to the old schools that are established in their respective regions eg KCOM DMU PCOM CCOM KCU.
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@Shinobiz11 can you weigh in here? There have been two accounts created within the last two days both slamming DCOM so I'm curious if you've had the same experience or if my tingling troll senses are correct.
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For sure a tough thing to navigate, and inevtiably there will be things you don't know until you are there. Having said that, if you have any opportunity to talk with current students that would be a great resource. If you are on interviews, ask some students if they would choose their current school over some other potential school (ideally in confidentiality). Find out the class size, who the clinical faculty are that actually teach, what clinical faculty they have on campus/full-time, try to get the contact info of some 3/4 year students to ask about their hospital experience. Generally speaking (in my opinion), asking current or previous students about their experience will give you the most realistic idea about what to expect. Also, not trying to suggest it is the end of the world if you end up in a less than ideal situation, but would be nice to avoid if possible.
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Instead of taking to SDN to air the inadequacies of your COM's clinical training, why not do something productive, and copy and paste what you've already wrote, and email COCA/AOA/AACOM. Better yet, get some power in numbers, have your classmates also send emails.
Be the change you want to see in the world...
Be the change you want to see in the world...
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Totally legitimate point. I will admit we have not emailed AOA/AACOM, but we have made extensive attempts to contact the school to improve the situation. Again, the intention of the post was the encourage prospective students to consider other schools, given that they have that opportunity. It is difficult to encourage someone to do something without giving some reason as to why they should consider such suggestion. Appreciate the advice though and will certainly talk with classmates about it.
COCA isn't going to do anything because it would mean less DO spots available in the future.
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I swear Mohandas Gandhi has some of the greatest quotes!
Well back to topic, I remember reading that some schools allow students to create rotations, if there is enough students on board. I wonder would it be an option in this case? Do you think it is feasible for students in the more rural schools to be able to help create rotations where GME (allopathic or osteopathic) is present?
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**Throw away acct for this.
At DCOM you are allowed to rotate with any physician you want for your electives, as long as you are doing the ground work to get it setup. You would not need the assistance of other students. The core rotations mentioned above must be done at a specified site, which you are assigned by lottery. Some are good sites, and some you have the experience of the OP. I feel bad for the position they have been put in, and believe it is directly related to the class size increase he mentioned.
Edit: There is a list of preceptors who have previously taken students for electives, but if you want a new site -- you can create a rotation.
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Thank you so much for posting this. It is vital to us premedical students.
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I was recently accepted here, and reading this kind of disheartened me. When I went to the interview, I really liked the school's atmosphere and family environment. The facilities seemed top notch and board pass rates were great. Along with their match rate. I guess 3rd and 4th years don't really matter as long as you become a physician in the end?
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Congrats on the acceptance! Don't be disheartened, all schools have their strengths and weakness. There are tons of students there who love the school and what it has to offer.
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PROs: Mediasite for the first two years (study from home), and 5 3rd year electives.
(You can interpret this two ways... More specialties that appeal to me. Or couldn't get hospitals to take so many students for longer than 6 months. I like it.)
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Have to chime in here with a few thoughts.
If COCA didn't think that the school couldn't handle the increase, they wouldn't have allowed the increase. I know schools that were denied class expansions due to an inability to guarantee rotation spots in clinical years.
- The ever expanding class size (translates = money for the school) is literally too big to accommodate all the second year students into the lecture hall
Numbers please.
- The student to professor/clinician ratio is embarrassing and the best clinical faculty that were at the school left this past year (also, virtually no specialized clinicians at the school)
This is the rule, rather than the exception, for most DO schools.
- There is no hospital at the school so they ship the students out like pack rats to random community hospitals, several of which have no business being a teaching institute or they do not want students there (also, while you continue to pay the school top dollar for their "services" you are basically left to find yourself new housing, make your own schedule, in some instances find your own preceptors for "core" rotations, etc)
This is also common, and not surprising given that the goal of most of the DO schools is to train Primary Care docs, not pulmonologists or cardiologists). Specialists don't have the time to run a full systems course either.
- The vast majority of second year "systems" courses are taught by family med docs (example, respiratory taught by FM doc rather than Pulmonologist. Cardiology taught by FM doc rather than Cardiologist. Renal taught by FM doc rather than Nephrologist. etc..)
That can be an issue. But if there's a high attrition rate due to too many unqualified student failing out of school, or having to repeat years, that will get on COCA's radar. But taking MS students who have gone through an SMP is a plus, because you're preselected a cohort that you know can survive a med school-like curriculum. Maybe my school have a higher threshold for our MS students than does LMU?
- Elaborating on the class size issue (translates = the money issue); the school has increased the class size to somewhere around 240 students, yet not nearly all of those students are equipped to succeed/get by in school. So to compensate and work with the students (translates = keep those students tuition money) the school will accept a huge number of masters students or let students repeat (several times) in an effort to help them get through (translates = money) the first two years. Example, student X does not meet requirements for acceptance into OMS1 class. LMU-DCOM offers student X a seat in the masters class. Student X accepts and pays for this seat. Student X makes it to OMS1 where they fail 2 classes during fall/spring semester. LMU-DCOM offers student X a repeat year of OMS1 with next years class. Student X repeats OMS1. Student X finally makes it to OMS2 where they either fail again and are excused from the school (left with MASSIVE debt and no job) or they make it to boards and are left searching for outside resources/classes/on-campus courses to help them try to pass. Students paying for 3-4 years of education to get through the first two years is Not an uncommon situation at LMU-DCOM, which can be looked past. The unacceptable part is the students that are left with MASSIVE debt and no way to repay it because the school strung them along as if they were going to get by eventually.
THIS is a problem!
- One of the largest locations the students are sent out to do their "clinical" rotations is a glorified high school shadowing experience. Students are not allowed to cut, sew, start IVs, intubate patients, act as first assist, deliver babies, administer shots, and by some accounts doing any sort of history or physical exam without their preceptor present. (all of which are things students are expected to learn as a third year medical student). When students have addressed these issues (extensively) with the faculty of LMU-DCOM, they are continually met with the response, "We still feel this is a good learning experience. Just stay positive."
If COCA didn't think that the school couldn't handle the increase, they wouldn't have allowed the increase. I know schools that were denied class expansions due to an inability to guarantee rotation spots in clinical years.
- The ever expanding class size (translates = money for the school) is literally too big to accommodate all the second year students into the lecture hall
Numbers please.
- The student to professor/clinician ratio is embarrassing and the best clinical faculty that were at the school left this past year (also, virtually no specialized clinicians at the school)
This is the rule, rather than the exception, for most DO schools.
- There is no hospital at the school so they ship the students out like pack rats to random community hospitals, several of which have no business being a teaching institute or they do not want students there (also, while you continue to pay the school top dollar for their "services" you are basically left to find yourself new housing, make your own schedule, in some instances find your own preceptors for "core" rotations, etc)
This is also common, and not surprising given that the goal of most of the DO schools is to train Primary Care docs, not pulmonologists or cardiologists). Specialists don't have the time to run a full systems course either.
- The vast majority of second year "systems" courses are taught by family med docs (example, respiratory taught by FM doc rather than Pulmonologist. Cardiology taught by FM doc rather than Cardiologist. Renal taught by FM doc rather than Nephrologist. etc..)
That can be an issue. But if there's a high attrition rate due to too many unqualified student failing out of school, or having to repeat years, that will get on COCA's radar. But taking MS students who have gone through an SMP is a plus, because you're preselected a cohort that you know can survive a med school-like curriculum. Maybe my school have a higher threshold for our MS students than does LMU?
- Elaborating on the class size issue (translates = the money issue); the school has increased the class size to somewhere around 240 students, yet not nearly all of those students are equipped to succeed/get by in school. So to compensate and work with the students (translates = keep those students tuition money) the school will accept a huge number of masters students or let students repeat (several times) in an effort to help them get through (translates = money) the first two years. Example, student X does not meet requirements for acceptance into OMS1 class. LMU-DCOM offers student X a seat in the masters class. Student X accepts and pays for this seat. Student X makes it to OMS1 where they fail 2 classes during fall/spring semester. LMU-DCOM offers student X a repeat year of OMS1 with next years class. Student X repeats OMS1. Student X finally makes it to OMS2 where they either fail again and are excused from the school (left with MASSIVE debt and no job) or they make it to boards and are left searching for outside resources/classes/on-campus courses to help them try to pass. Students paying for 3-4 years of education to get through the first two years is Not an uncommon situation at LMU-DCOM, which can be looked past. The unacceptable part is the students that are left with MASSIVE debt and no way to repay it because the school strung them along as if they were going to get by eventually.
THIS is a problem!
- One of the largest locations the students are sent out to do their "clinical" rotations is a glorified high school shadowing experience. Students are not allowed to cut, sew, start IVs, intubate patients, act as first assist, deliver babies, administer shots, and by some accounts doing any sort of history or physical exam without their preceptor present. (all of which are things students are expected to learn as a third year medical student). When students have addressed these issues (extensively) with the faculty of LMU-DCOM, they are continually met with the response, "We still feel this is a good learning experience. Just stay positive."
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Yeah I know for a fact that elective can be set up at the discretion of the student (probably a good thing for the student at LMU during 3rd year). It sucks that not much can be done about the core rotations. Thank you again for the vital information, I kind of saw this coming with the class expansion.
That is why I only recommend the "established" DO schools and those affiliated with large public universities like Nova, MSU, TCOM, Oklahoma, and Ohio. Burrell is going to be one of the best DO schools, sure its just starting out but its going to be a top class school.
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Only if the relationship with NMSU proves to be as valuable as you are assuming. There is no proof of that yet. Best not to jump to crazy assumptions.
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3rd and 4th years are where you learn how to practice- procedures, H&P's, navigating through difficult situations with family, abuse, etc. They are critically important.
I would bet money they will do well, its not a Shake and Bake DO school like so many of them. AZCOM is another well run school that has become a full fledged graduate biomedical university, my school is really known as Midwestern University Arizona.
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Stuff like this makes me so nervous about going the DO route 🙁
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MD schools aren't exempt from poor clinical clerkship experiences.
i have trouble believing this.
if the region was well suited for a DO school, then BCOM would be called NMSUCOM, a non-profit with full affiliation to NMSU. instead, NMSU wasn't confident in such a SOM's economic viability so it sought 3rd party funding that aligned profits into its mission and vision to keep the school afloat.
Well AZCOM is thriving. So is ATSU-SOMA. There is a lot of construction going on at my school lately.
AZCOM is non-profit and has it's older sister campus CCOM as a role model and support. same with atsu-soma and atsu-kcom, respectively. i see no reason for BCOM, a for-profit, to be special, especially as a brand new school.
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I saw the CHC disappear in my home state. I wouldn't use the word thriving. With the low amount of students spread out as they are, they don't have the numbers or home court advantage a state school has. This is why DO schools with clinical rotations far from the school will not be stable.
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Certainly not, but these types of terrible stories seem relatively common among DO students. Particularly the "you have to do a clerkship in X specialty, go find someone to do it with" bit...
just make sure you get into the best DO schools to increase the chances of having good rotations.
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Tbh, and I do hope not to get gall from some LMU students for saying this, but the OP is not the first person on this site to bring up LMU's troubles with clinical rotations. It seems like LMU ends up having many of their students essentially rotating in borderline outpatient facilities, which I personally find troubling. I'm certainly not saying that there isn't value in doing some outpatient, but I've spoken with some graduates who claim they spent the majority of their 3rd year in out patient. That's not alright.
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Personally I think it's insulting that they were not put on prohibition when they only graduated 80% of their class on time their first class and when their board scores ended up being relatively poor. I mean lets be entirely frank, the fact that COCA approved an expansion is horrific and only degrades the osteopathic medical field as a whole.
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Definitely do not be disheartened! Congrats on being accepted, that is a great accomplishment!! Whether you attend DCOM or some other school, the opportunity to excel is there. Best of luck to you!
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An 80% delay in graduation is concerning.
Poor board scores I'd expect for a pioneer class.
Poor board scores I'd expect for a pioneer class.
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I agree with UT Fan Boy about mediasite. This allows you to make your own schedule, speed up easier lectures, slow down tougher ones, repeat as many times as you need, etc. I personally do not see the 5 3rd year electives, from a board prep/student perspective, as a good thing but if you look at it solely in terms of choosing specialities you want to try then it can be a good thing. Other pros: you're in a medical school, you have a lot of flexibility for half of 3rd year and most of 4th year to go wherever you want, and with the large class size you're bound to find some friends you like!
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Can others link me to past threads about lmu-dcom's quality of rotations? I can't seem to find any based on the search tool.
T
trev5150
I'll be more than happy to take your spot.
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That doesn't change anything.
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In all seriousness, I'm surprised they would allow certain rotations in the first place. Some rotations for LMU are currently in Alabama and Arkansas which is rather far from the school. There are two schools that will open in Arkansas and one in Alabama already open. It will only be a matter of time before those sites are potentially dropped because of the newer schools needing it for their local students. COCA is in charge of both approving the sites and the schools. Why are they not taking this dynamic into account when approving sites? The schools and sites can take years to approve so COCA should be able to notice which rotations are feasible and which ones are not with all the expansions.
D
deleted610572
I believe the Alabama sites have all been lost to ACOM as of this fall due to ACOM finally sending students to rotations.
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I think a several schools had sites in Alabama including VCOM, LMU, and KYCOM. So that worst case scenario has finally been realized. I have a feeling the same fate will come to schools with distant Arkansas sites.
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Do you have a source that shows that NMSU seriously considered building their own medical school and rejected the plan due to lack of viability? All the research I've done seems to show the opposite, that there's is a great need in New Mexico for another medical school. Currently, 31 out of NM's 33 counties are officially considered medically underserved, and NM has the highest percentage of primary care doctors over age 60 (33%) in the country. The only medical school in NM is an MD school, and it has proven insufficient to provide the doctors that the state needs to reach a 1:2000 doctor to patient ratio. Everything I have looked at seems to indicate that BCOM has enthusiastic political and local support. New Mexico is desperate for a solution to its physician shortage and the impending crisis of 1/3 of their primary care physicians retiring, and it is significantly faster to open a for profit school than a nonprofit school.
Would you actually believe there are some people who have chosen DO schools over MD, even mid tier MD schools? Given how poor clinical rotations are at so many DO schools, you wonder what these people are thinking?
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I pretty sure people there are people who enter MD schools don't even have a clue of the structure of rotations. They want to know that they are getting a quality clinical education, but they don't understand what that entails or the questions to ask. Even among MD schools there are school that don't have university hospitals and use community hospitals instead (so there will be differences seen there, but not bad in comparison to clinic and doctor office rotations). Schools like TCMC use a similar model as what DO schools do. I could imagine these students applying to such a school and not realizing that the school uses a more preceptor based model.
Sadly some applicants in general don't really know what they are getting themselves into no matter what schools they apply to. SDN is the best resource so far in understand the whole process of medical schooling. People should be using it more.
/end rant
I heard of a guy who got into a good mid tier MD school and went to CCOM because he wanted to be in Chicago. Sometimes people will pick a DO school because of its locale. I think its generally a dumb primary reason to pick a school.
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In that case it wasn't a good move. However, I can understand if it is a rural school vs. urban. Urban schools have a greater concentration of hospitals and research facilities. If I had to choose between VCOM-va (more established) and MU-COM (new school), I would choose MU-COM. I could see more potential shadowing opportunities and research opportunities, again due to the high amount of hospitals. However, this is my personal preference.
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This is why its a good idea to go to the more established DO schools in the west and midwest- plus PCOM.
I have avoided applying to new DO schools/less established DO schools like the plague.
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Agreed. I'll probably apply to Rowan, PCOM, NYITCOM, KCUMB, CCOM, AZCOM. Any others I should consider? I like TCOM and MSU but I'm from New Jersey.
