Clinical Research vs EMT vs other Research

[blastokine]

Hi y'all,

I recently graduated from Uni this past summer with a competitive gpa and sgpa for med school. I also studied for the MCAT all summer, took it on September 10th, and am planning on applying next cycle for Fall 2018 entry.

Now I'm in a predicament on what to do during this time span to make me as competitive as I can be for medical school entry. I have an interview for a full time, clinical research coordinator position in a town pretty far from my home on Friday. I know this is a great way to get clinical experience as I'll be dealing with patients on a daily basis. I also have my EMT B certification, I haven't put it to much use yet but I have an interview for a volunteer position as an EMT in my hometown in a couple weeks which is another great way to get clinical experience. I had a good volunteering gig as an EMT while I was still living where my school was but unfortunately had to leave it after graduation because I had to come home. I didn't have time to get much experience there but I really enjoyed the job while I was there. What I'd ideally like to do is volunteer like once a week as an EMT in my hometown and work as a research tech/associate/etc. in a lab during the week (there are several great schools with labs that have available research positions in my hometown). That way I can get solid clinical and research exposure. However I haven't been able to land an interview for any research jobs yet, and I'm thinking that this CRC position is too good pass up. The CRC position will be full time and with it I wouldn't be able to volunteer as an EMT or work as a research tech. I've tried to find EMT volunteer programs in and around the town where the CRC job is, but haven't found one.

I know this is an unusual situation but any advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

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[aldol16]

If you're applying MD/PhD, research is important but it doesn't matter if it's clinical or basic - as long as you have exposure to hypothesis-driven research and can talk intelligently about it. But if you're applying MD, the research is less important but it's still very nice to have.

I don't think you really have a choice here so I don't know what you're looking for here. You don't have a job offer yet and the only interview you have is for the clinical research job. So my advice would be to perform well on that and see what happens from there. If you only end up with that job offer, then you don't have any other choice - it's either that or being jobless for the year. But it's important that you know what you're getting yourself into with the clinical research position and make sure that you'll be able to do that job for a year while still maintaining good mental health/being satisfied with the job.

With the research jobs, a lot of those are reserved for undergraduates at the universities and in many cases, even if they post a listing for the job, they may already have an in-house candidate in mind. According to labor regulations, for full-time positions with benefits, employers must post the job listing publicly and interview multiple candidates before hiring one. They already know who they want to hire and can justify it because that person probably already has experience in that lab already. Sometimes that happens.

 

[blastokine]

If you're applying MD/PhD, research is important but it doesn't matter if it's clinical or basic - as long as you have exposure to hypothesis-driven research and can talk intelligently about it. But if you're applying MD, the research is less important but it's still very nice to have.

I don't think you really have a choice here so I don't know what you're looking for here. You don't have a job offer yet and the only interview you have is for the clinical research job. So my advice would be to perform well on that and see what happens from there. If you only end up with that job offer, then you don't have any other choice - it's either that or being jobless for the year. But it's important that you know what you're getting yourself into with the clinical research position and make sure that you'll be able to do that job for a year while still maintaining good mental health/being satisfied with the job.

With the research jobs, a lot of those are reserved for undergraduates at the universities and in many cases, even if they post a listing for the job, they may already have an in-house candidate in mind. According to labor regulations, for full-time positions with benefits, employers must post the job listing publicly and interview multiple candidates before hiring one. They already know who they want to hire and can justify it because that person probably already has experience in that lab already. Sometimes that happens.

Thanks for that. And you're right about my options being limited, right now I'm looking at either this paid CRC position or at volunteering as an EMT in my hometown. As a volunteer EMT I'd shadow and assist paramedics while providing basic life support to patients. I'm kind of torn at which one to do between the two.

 

[aldol16]

Thanks for that. And you're right about my options being limited, right now I'm looking at either this paid CRC position or at volunteering as an EMT in my hometown. As a volunteer EMT I'd shadow and assist paramedics while providing basic life support to patients. I'm kind of torn at which one to do between the two.

Is that really a choice? Paid... Unpaid. Paid... Unpaid. Both will give you exposure to patients. At the end of the day, it comes down to which path will allow you to sustain yourself for the year.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Thanks for that. And you're right about my options being limited, right now I'm looking at either this paid CRC position or at volunteering as an EMT in my hometown. As a volunteer EMT I'd shadow and assist paramedics while providing basic life support to patients. I'm kind of torn at which one to do between the two.

And why can't you do both?

 

[ChrisMack390]

I strongly advocate for CRC jobs for pre-meds. Its simultaneous research and patient contact, which means that you can list it as whichever you are weaker in and schools can interpret it in whichever way they are more interested in.

 

[blastokine]

And why can't you do both?

One is in my hometown and the other is in a town 4 hours away.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

One is in my hometown and the other is in a town 4 hours away.

Missed the part where it was far away. According to goro, EMT is usually looked at as being more of a glorified cab driver, so not worth passing up a paid job in my book.

 

[EEtoPre-Med]

Missed the part where it was far away. According to goro, EMT is usually looked at as being more of a glorified cab driver, so not worth passing up a paid job in my book.

Why is this the case? I'm not an EMT but it seems like if someone is looking for clinical experience being an EMT would be a perfectly acceptable way of getting it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Why is this the case? I'm not an EMT but it seems like if someone is looking for clinical experience being an EMT would be a perfectly acceptable way of getting it.

Most EMT-Bs don't do much more than transport and extremely basic BLS. They pick up, drop off, and then go on to the next call. Not great experience. If you have your EMT-P, that's a different story.

 

[EEtoPre-Med]

Most EMT-Bs don't do much more than transport and extremely basic BLS. They pick up, drop off, and then go on to the next call. Not great experience. If you have your EMT-P, that's a different story.

In the context of this discussion, it seems like it makes total sense to take the research job over the EMT opportunity. But, in general, is the standard for clinical experience really this high? It makes sense to say you need "real" clinical experience but it seems like medical schools would be requiring someone to get a CNA or work as a nurse before applying to medical school. Most volunteering positions would be considered just receptionist positions or even janitorial positions under this standard. Thoughts?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

In the context of this discussion, it seems like it makes total sense to take the research job over the EMT opportunity. But, in general, is the standard for clinical experience really this high? It makes sense to say you need "real" clinical experience but it seems like medical schools would be requiring someone to get a CNA or work as a nurse before applying to medical school. Most volunteering positions would be considered just receptionist positions or even janitorial positions under this standard. Thoughts?

My OR tech program was 9 months. There are some jobs that will take you without the certificate if you seem smart and motivated, and they think they can train you quickly. Scribe jobs require no previous training I think. I'm not sure about ER techs.

There are lots of ways to get significant clinical experience without lengthy programs.

 

[aldol16]

Most EMT-Bs don't do much more than transport and extremely basic BLS. They pick up, drop off, and then go on to the next call. Not great experience. If you have your EMT-P, that's a different story.

"Most" is an overgeneralization. It depends on where you're at. If you're in a rural or suburban area, BLS is usually the first line of care and in many of those areas, ALS can't get there until 15+ minutes into the call. "Extremely basic BLS" is the life support that saves lives. That's initiating CPR for a heart attack patient, administering Narcan to a drug overdose patient (though many states have started selling Narcan over the counter without prescription), giving oral glucose to a hypoglycemic patient, administering epinephrine for severe allergic reaction, etc.

What you're describing sounds like a private ambulance service. Completely different story.

 

[aldol16]

ut, in general, is the standard for clinical experience really this high? It makes sense to say you need "real" clinical experience but it seems like medical schools would be requiring someone to get a CNA or work as a nurse before applying to medical school. Most volunteering positions would be considered just receptionist positions or even janitorial positions under this standard. Thoughts?

EMS is a perfectly acceptable way of getting clinical exposure. You'll be interacting with doctors, nurses, and ER staff regularly (depending on frequency of calls in your area) and you will actually be responsible for continuity of care - what you say may actually affect how they triage the patient. This is much more clinical exposure than having a hospital volunteer job which is usually just glorified bed cleaner. Supplement it with physician shadowing and perhaps another clinical activity if you would like more exposure to a hospital setting. It is what you write of it. If you can talk about how you learned about pre-hospital and hospital care from the experience, then nobody is going to say "Oh, he was only an EMT - he doesn't know anything about medicine!" Now, if you just get your certification and either don't volunteer with your squad or your squad never gets any calls, then you'll be hard-pressed to call that a "clinical" experience.

 

[JowellHollyBuddy33]

Most EMT-Bs don't do much more than transport and extremely basic BLS. They pick up, drop off, and then go on to the next call. Not great experience. If you have your EMT-P, that's a different story.

I did a lot more than that as an EMT-B. When you work for a 911 service that runs two men/women on a truck, usually one EMT and one medic, you play a crucial role in the care for even the most emergent of patients. I value all of the experiences that I had... But it's really only worth doing if you do it for an extended period of time.


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I did a lot more than that as an EMT-B. When you work for a 911 service that runs two men/women on a truck, usually one EMT and one medic, you play a crucial role in the care for even the most emergent of patients. I value all of the experiences that I had... But it's really only worth doing if you do it for an extended period of time.


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Hence the word "most." Obviously if your experience is different from the majority, you should highlight that. Nothing wrong with being an EMT, but when all the adcoms on here agree that it is generally considered a mildly clinical taxi driver, that says something.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"Most" is an overgeneralization. It depends on where you're at. If you're in a rural or suburban area, BLS is usually the first line of care and in many of those areas, ALS can't get there until 15+ minutes into the call. "Extremely basic BLS" is the life support that saves lives. That's initiating CPR for a heart attack patient, administering Narcan to a drug overdose patient (though many states have started selling Narcan over the counter without prescription), giving oral glucose to a hypoglycemic patient, administering epinephrine for severe allergic reaction, etc.

What you're describing sounds like a private ambulance service. Completely different story.

Whether it's an over generalization or not is irrelevant. Most (there's that word again) of the adcoms on here have stated that EMT is not considered to be very strong clinical experience (unless you can articulate that you were at a busy service with lots of hands on stuff). That's not my opinion, that's the adcoms on this site.

And I don't know what state you live in, but none of the states I've lived or worked in allow EMT-Bs to do much more than take vitals, put on a dressing, and transport. And the paramedic truck is usually right behind or ahead of the EMT-Bs on high level calls.

 

[JowellHollyBuddy33]

Hence the word "most." Obviously if your experience is different from the majority, you should highlight that. Nothing wrong with being an EMT, but when all the adcoms on here agree that it is generally considered a mildly clinical taxi driver, that says something.

I've never driven a taxi. Not sure what that's like.


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I've never driven a taxi. Not sure what that's like.


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Me neither, but I'm probably going to start doing uber. Maybe if I offer my rides a bandaid I can count it as clinical experience.



















I kid, I kid.

 

[aldol16]

Whether it's an over generalization or not is irrelevant. Most (there's that word again) of the adcoms on here have stated that EMT is not considered to be very strong clinical experience (unless you can articulate that you were at a busy service with lots of hands on stuff). That's not my opinion, that's the adcoms on this site.

And I don't know what state you live in, but none of the states I've lived or worked in allow EMT-Bs to do much more than take vitals, put on a dressing, and transport. And the paramedic truck is usually right behind or ahead of the EMT-Bs on high level calls.

It's not irrelevant. It's an overgeneralization on the part of adcoms on this site. What is judged is what you do as an EMT, not the title itself. Slapping "hospital volunteer" on a job where you clean bedpans all day doesn't make it a valuable clinical experience no matter who tells you it is.

I don't think you're familiar with EMS scope of practice at all. I know of no states in which EMTs cannot do the things I mentioned in my above post, with the exception of Narcan. The point of basic life support is to support life until the patient is in a setting where he or she receives intensive care. Yes, that means putting on a dressing and transporting if it's just a cut. But that also means CPR during cardiac emergencies, administering epinephrine during severe allergic reactions, oral glucose for diabetics, Narcan for OD patients, etc. I would suggest you take a look into EMS scope of practice before you try to generalize.

A mobile intensive care unit usually arrives on scene anywhere from 5-15 minutes after EMS in suburban areas and in rural areas, EMS is often the only care patients will receive before arriving at the hospital. This is because MICU units are usually funded by hospitals and if you're in an area that's 60 miles from the nearest hospital, those MICU units will not be nearby.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's not irrelevant. It's an overgeneralization on the part of adcoms on this site. What is judged is what you do as an EMT, not the title itself. Slapping "hospital volunteer" on a job where you clean bedpans all day doesn't make it a valuable clinical experience no matter who tells you it is.

I don't think you're familiar with EMS scope of practice at all. I know of no states in which EMTs cannot do the things I mentioned in my above post, with the exception of Narcan. The point of basic life support is to support life until the patient is in a setting where he or she receives intensive care. Yes, that means putting on a dressing and transporting if it's just a cut. But that also means CPR during cardiac emergencies, administering epinephrine during severe allergic reactions, oral glucose for diabetics, Narcan for OD patients, etc. I would suggest you take a look into EMS scope of practice before you try to generalize.

A mobile intensive care unit usually arrives on scene anywhere from 5-15 minutes after EMS in suburban areas and in rural areas, EMS is often the only care patients will receive before arriving at the hospital. This is because MICU units are usually funded by hospitals and if you're in an area that's 60 miles from the nearest hospital, those MICU units will not be nearby.

You're missing my point. If adcoms view it as not being very strong clinical experience, then it doesn't matter if that's true or not. If you can articulate why your experience doesn't fall into that stereotype, then I don't think it'll affect you. You don't have to convince me that paramedics and some EMT-Bs are badass. My brother-in-law is a FF/paramedic. He's the man.

 

[Gurby]

Just FWIW, as a paramedic I've done many of the flashy things in our scope of practice, but my best answer to "tell me about your favorite experience with a patient" is something that happened during a routine transport I did as an EMT-B. Even if you're generally just bringing people from point A to point B, it's still a good chance to spend time with patients. You even get to build long term relationships with patients as an EMT because you'll pick up the same patients all the time for dialysis, etc.

If a lot of your clinical exposure comes from EMS, it's probably extra important that you have some good shadowing experience or hospital volunteering so you can make a case for knowing what physicians do.

 

[aldol16]

You're missing my point. If adcoms view it as not being very strong clinical experience, then it doesn't matter if that's true or not. If you can articulate why your experience doesn't fall into that stereotype, then I don't think it'll affect you. You don't have to convince me that paramedics and some EMT-Bs are badass. My brother-in-law is a FF/paramedic. He's the man.

You're missing the point. The reason some adcoms don't view EMS as a strong clinical experience is because many pre-meds get their EMT certs and don't do anything about it or work at private ambulance companies that only do interfacility transport. EMTs that do get clinical experience, i.e. responding to 911 calls and interfacing with ER staff on behalf of their patient, generally are good applicants in that category. Categorically saying that "adcoms don't view EMS as a strong clinical experience" is an overgeneralization of both adcoms and EMS.