CMS Proposes Primary Care Raises Funded With Specialist Cuts

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That doesnt make any sense. It is way too much effort and sacrifice to take such long training for no more $$. Are you saying that having more training and knowledge is pointless then? You think that a FM person should get paid the same as an orthopedic surgeon, a neurosurgeon, rad onc, etc? Why don't we all work for nurse wages too then?

200k is roughly what you guys make. Radiologists train double the time you guys train. why should they not get paid more? They have more knowledge, skills, and realistically add much more to patient care. Not to start a flame war, but 90% of primary care can be done by a midlevel.

Again explain to me why all specialties would get paid the same? Then nurses should make the same we do then, as well as techs, janitors, etc.

Your statements are really dense. As a hospitalist and generalist I have much broader knowledge than specialist physicians although I make it a point to learn from them whatever they have to offer. You can not seriously be stating that internal medicine, family medicine and pediatrics represent small knowledge bases That can be mastered without yrs of dedication and training when they are in fact extremely broad and serve as the foundation of all other specialties. Cost savings is achieved by physicians with broad enough knowledge to not have to consult and thats what things are moving towards. We don't get "stuck" very often. Consults most often are for procedures ie Cath's, scopes, surgeries, ivc filters, or legal cover or just patient demand at times rather than fighting the patient. Also, I have seen piss poor cardiology coming from "cardiology" midlevels and piss poor "critical care" from critcal care mid levels. While the big boss ie Dr. Is doing Cath's all day (because that's where the money is) all too often to the point where sometimes you wonder if you are doing the patient a disservice rather than a favor by consulting cards in the first place with the only real benefit being legal cover. To those that would say hospitalist medicine isn't primary care I would say that it's nothing more than an extension of out patient medicine and the skill of the outpatient physician determines what can be managed outpatient vs inpatient again pointing to cost savings by competent primary care physicians not mid level hacks or a specialist who needs to consult 5 other specialists to do the job of one primary physician.

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Your statements are really dense.

Who?

As a hospitalist and generalist I have much broader knowledge than specialist physicians

Some of us medical sub-specialists maintain our medicine back ground quite well, thank you. granted not al sub specialties do CC.

You can not seriously be stating that internal medicine, family medicine and pediatrics represent small knowledge bases

Who said that? I didn't? I for one think IM (I'm an adult doc) should be the core foundation in a hospital, and that was one of the things I looked for in a hospital to start practice.

We don't get "stuck" very often. Consults most often are for procedures ie Cath's, scopes, surgeries, ivc filters, or legal cover or just patient demand at times rather than fighting the patient.

As it should be. But I **** you not, it isn't like that in every place. I'd get consults all the time for stupid stuff where I did my fellowship. Pt has one aspergillus in the sputum call pulm to r/o ABPA! Pt not improving from pna quickly enough and has HIV! He must have tb even though the IRGA is negative and has no other risk factors! Pt with florid chf and is still on 2l nc see what pulm has to say! Pt has copd they must need home bipap (with a normal paco2)!

The problem isn't that IM is bad, I'm just biased as I've seen the consultant herders recently and haven't seen many real IM docs since I left my residency.

Also, I have seen piss poor cardiology coming from "cardiology" midlevels while the big boss ie Dr. Is doing Cath's all day because that's where the money is all too often to the point where sometimes you wonder if you are doing the patient a disservice rather than a favor by consulting cards in the first place with the only real benefit being legal cover.

Frankly, I'd be offended at sub specialists who send Midlevels for new consults, for in or out patients. It's a insult to your intelligence and training to think a NP or PA is really Better than a PCP. That's not how I do things.
 
School teachers make $47k plus great benefits and job security. They work two months less per year than almost everyone else. Education is probably one of the easiest undergraduate majors you can pick, and scholarships for teachers are plentiful. Their compensation is very fair.

Food for thought, trash collectors make 60K/year, USPS mailmen make 55K/year plus benefits and retirement. Sadly, these jobs don't even need half a brain to perform, but they do pay more than that of a school teacher....
 
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It's not us. This is CMS we're talking about.

Personally, I think that just redistributing funds without comprehensive reimbursement and delivery system reform is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

And, when a specialist is stuck, they send the patient back to their PCP.

"<Insert lucrative invasive procedure(s) here> is/are negative. Symptoms are not likely of <insert specialty here> etiology. Recommend patient follow up with his/her PCP."

Almost as good as the radiologist's "Cannot rule out <insert potentially serious/life threatening condition(s) here>. Clinical correlation needed."

Been doing it for ten years, pal.
The winner is you.
 
School teachers make $47k plus great benefits and job security. They work two months less per year than almost everyone else. Education is probably one of the easiest undergraduate majors you can pick, and scholarships for teachers are plentiful. Their compensation is very fair.

Agreed. And they don't make 47k, they make far more than that. In some states, the avg is closer to 60-70k. Some are making like 100k. They get paid extra in the summer if they choose to work, not to mention the nice little pensions and health benefits. It's extremely easy to get a teaching degree, and the work is certainly not too challenging, not to mention working from 8-3:00pm or so, with the occassional parent/teacher conference. The idea that everyone deserves 6 figures is nauseating. If everyone does, then what is the point of getting education, taking risk, having a job that actually requires any type of intellect, etc etc?
 
Agreed. And they don't make 47k, they make far more than that. In some states, the avg is closer to 60-70k. Some are making like 100k. They get paid extra in the summer if they choose to work, not to mention the nice little pensions and health benefits. It's extremely easy to get a teaching degree, and the work is certainly not too challenging, not to mention working from 8-3:00pm or so, with the occassional parent/teacher conference. The idea that everyone deserves 6 figures is nauseating. If everyone does, then what is the point of getting education, taking risk, having a job that actually requires any type of intellect, etc etc?

My mother was an elementary school teacher. She would get home at 6 or 7 every night after making lesson plans for underpriviliged disruptive kids and I remember her being stressed out. Vast majority of teachers aren't motivated by money and she did not make alot of money.
 
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Agreed. And they don't make 47k, they make far more than that. In some states, the avg is closer to 60-70k. Some are making like 100k. They get paid extra in the summer if they choose to work, not to mention the nice little pensions and health benefits. It's extremely easy to get a teaching degree, and the work is certainly not too challenging, not to mention working from 8-3:00pm or so, with the occassional parent/teacher conference. The idea that everyone deserves 6 figures is nauseating. If everyone does, then what is the point of getting education, taking risk, having a job that actually requires any type of intellect, etc etc?

The starting salary for a teacher in SD is around 28k. My mother has been teaching for 30+ years and is just now making 44k and is the highest paid teacher in the (small) school system.
She too spends many hours outside of work grading, creating lesson plans, working on committees, working towards national certification. She also spends much of her summer at school for classroom preparation, continuing education, etc. Along with this, she has to deal with the stress of classroom management with 20+ sometimes rowdy students that she has to be expected to teach to overarching, ill guided standards with a system that is poorly funded (sounding familiar anyone?)

I think teachers are a poor analogy for this situation. They are an excellent example of an overworked/stressed, underpaid profession.
 
It's extremely easy to get a teaching degree, and the work is certainly not too challenging,

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

strange-albert-einstein.jpg
 
Agreed. And they don't make 47k, they make far more than that. In some states, the avg is closer to 60-70k. Some are making like 100k. They get paid extra in the summer if they choose to work, not to mention the nice little pensions and health benefits. It's extremely easy to get a teaching degree, and the work is certainly not too challenging, not to mention working from 8-3:00pm or so, with the occassional parent/teacher conference. The idea that everyone deserves 6 figures is nauseating. If everyone does, then what is the point of getting education, taking risk, having a job that actually requires any type of intellect, etc etc?

Wow. You clearly have absolutely no clue... not even in the slightest. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there bud. You should probably take honest Abe's advice son.
 
The starting salary for a teacher in SD is around 28k. My mother has been teaching for 30+ years and is just now making 44k and is the highest paid teacher in the (small) school system.
She too spends many hours outside of work grading, creating lesson plans, working on committees, working towards national certification. She also spends much of her summer at school for classroom preparation, continuing education, etc. Along with this, she has to deal with the stress of classroom management with 20+ sometimes rowdy students that she has to be expected to teach to overarching, ill guided standards with a system that is poorly funded (sounding familiar anyone?)

I think teachers are a poor analogy for this situation. They are an excellent example of an overworked/stressed, underpaid profession.

Maybe in South Dakota, which is what I assume you mean by SD. In IL, where I"m from, avg teacher salary is 69k. If teachers work summers, they get extra $$. If they coach, they get extra $$. They get a full pension + healthcare upon retiring. They can not be fired, even if they suck. If you go to a preppy suburb (think Naperville, IL for example), the avg for teachers goes up to mid 70's. I think for a teaching degree that usually is free for most people (they have a ton of scholarships for teachers, and a ton of repayment options with loan forgiveness), 3+ months off, and where the official class time ends at 3:00pm, that's not too shabby.
 
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

strange-albert-einstein.jpg

Personal attacks against someone else is not only inappropriate, but pretty classless. I would expect more from someone who is supposed to be an attending. And yes, getting a teaching degree is one of the easiest, if not the easiest, degree to get. You clearly don't want to have a discussion, but rather resort to personal attacks. I guess I'll be the bigger person here, and just stop responding.
 
Don't take money from someone else to give to someone else. This is communism and we don't like communism, or at least we didn't use to. This is the reason doctors as a whole dont make as much as they used to many years ago. My cardiothoracic doc said 20 years ago he was making 1 to 2 million per year. Now with all the cuts he's making about 600K per year (yah it's a lot, but he works ton too). And in that time frame general practiocioners wages never went up, but in fact it went down! So don't get fooled, because they're just trying to divide and conquer. Get it?
 
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gomere and dermpath, did you guys get drunk together before you posted?
 
Maybe in South Dakota, which is what I assume you mean by SD. In IL, where I"m from, avg teacher salary is 69k. If teachers work summers, they get extra $$. If they coach, they get extra $$. They get a full pension + healthcare upon retiring. They can not be fired, even if they suck. If you go to a preppy suburb (think Naperville, IL for example), the avg for teachers goes up to mid 70's. I think for a teaching degree that usually is free for most people (they have a ton of scholarships for teachers, and a ton of repayment options with loan forgiveness), 3+ months off, and where the official class time ends at 3:00pm, that's not too shabby.

Yeah youre way off base. that pay is not even close to what is going on in most of the country. Summer teach isn't available to everyone...and the pay isn't that good. As for coaching, i made a whopping $1600 for high school soccer...that's preseason all summer, practices 3-6, game nights I wasn't home until midnight sometimes...up at 4 the next morning to get stuff ready for the day. Definitely not doing it for the money.

Its not the hardest gig in the world but its far from the easiest major, definitely underpaid.
 
Personal attacks against someone else is not only inappropriate, but pretty classless. I would expect more from someone who is supposed to be an attending. And yes, getting a teaching degree is one of the easiest, if not the easiest, degree to get. You clearly don't want to have a discussion, but rather resort to personal attacks. I guess I'll be the bigger person here, and just stop responding.

Not a "personal attack." Just stating the obvious.

Good call on taking Abe's advice. Finally. It's not like we didn't warn you.
 
Not a "personal attack." Just stating the obvious.

Good call on taking Abe's advice. Finally. It's not like we didn't warn you.

I find it hard to believe that you would be an attending, and would continue to make personal attacks on a colleague. It is shameful, and at this point you are simply harassing me. It seems you are incapable of having rational discussions with someone else who does not agree with you. It is classless, pathetic, and out of line to say the least.

Administrator, please close this thread. This is out of control.
 
I find it hard to believe that you would be an attending, and would continue to make personal attacks on a colleague. It is shameful, and at this point you are simply harassing me. It seems you are incapable of having rational discussions with someone else who does not agree with you. It is classless, pathetic, and out of line to say the least.

Administrator, please close this thread. This is out of control.

Looks like my "good call" was premature. And, for the record, you aren't my "colleague." You're just another clueless, anonymous poster trolling an Internet message board.
 
Looks like my "good call" was premature. And, for the record, you aren't my "colleague." You're just another clueless, anonymous poster trolling an Internet message board, whose time would quite likely be spent elsewhere.

Administrator, please close this thread since this person continues bullying. Thanks.
 
Senate Committee Hears Importance of Primary Care … And Not Just From AAFP

http://blogs.aafp.org/cfr/leadervoices/entry/senate_committee_hears_importance_of?sf5082645=1

Frank Opelka, M.D., associate medical director for the American College of Surgeons' Division of Advocacy and Health Policy, told the committee that the ACS has a plan to set payment updates using value-based targets.

"Is this for surgeons or other specialties as well?" Baucus asked.

"This is for patients -- all patients," Opelka replied. "Instead of being surgeon-related, it's patient-centered."

Opelka explained to the committee that the ACS would like to work with specialty organizations and other stakeholders to set physician payment updates based on specific targets. For example, he said a cancer program would not be just about oncology but also radiation therapy, surgery and primary care. Similarly, treating a digestive disease might involve gastroenterology, surgery and primary care.

"You can't get away from primary care," he said. "They're tied to every one of us."

Give the surgeons credit. They get it. They can't do it all, and they don't want to manage complex medical care. They want strong collaboration with primary care, and to have that collaboration in their communities, they need a strong primary care work force.

Opelka wasn't the only one voicing support for primary care and the PCMH. AMA president-elect Ardis Dee Hoven, M.D., an internal medicine and infectious disease specialist, also stressed the importance of care coordination and the potential it holds for long-term savings.
 
Radiologists train double the time you guys train. why should they not get paid more?

Radiologists train for 8* years (med school + 4* years of rads residency). FPs train for 7 (med school + 3 years of residency). That's a 12%* difference in training years, and does not justify the enormous difference between the average primary care income and the average radiology income ($199,850.00 for FM, $444,850.00 for non-interventional rads - source: http://www.profilesdatabase.com/reso...-salary-survey), nor do average hours worked (FM=52.5, rads=58, a 10% difference - source: http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm). The only reason radiologists make bank is because of how CMS and other payers currently reimburse for imaging CPT codes. That's already changing.

*Edit: Forgot the transitional/IM year. So, 9 years vs. 7 is a 22% difference in training years. The point stands, however.
 
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Radiologists train for 8 years (med school + 4 years of rads residency). FPs train for 7 (med school + 3 years of residency). That's a 12% difference in training years, and does not justify the enormous difference between the average primary care income and the average radiology income ($199,850.00 for FM, $444,850.00 for non-interventional rads - source: http://www.profilesdatabase.com/reso...-salary-survey), nor do average hours worked (FM=52.5, rads=58, a 10% difference - source: http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm). The only reason radiologists make bank is because of how CMS and other payers currently reimburse for imaging CPT codes. That's already changing.

Radiologists train for 6 years, not 4. Radiology residency is 5 years minimum, + fellowship which is pretty much required now given the changes in the specialty. FP train for 3 years. If rads and other long residencies make the same as FP and other primary care specialties, then you'll see a shift towards primary care, with a brain drain in those longer specialties. When there is a huge shortage of specialists, then there will be a high demand again with high salaries. Further, the mental drain of doing something like rads, rad onc, or stress levels of something like anesthesia, neurosurgery, ortho, etc is far superior to FM. Most medical students can do FM, and there is a reason why the least competitive students go into FM, much fewer can be specialists, and that is one of the reasons why there is such a significant place for midlevels in primary care, which will likely replace FM and other primary care people in our lifetime. As you can see, that's happening.
 
Radiologists train for 6 years, not 4. Radiology residency is 5 years minimum, + fellowship which is pretty much required now given the changes in the specialty. FP train for 3 years. If rads and other long residencies make the same as FP and other primary care specialties, then you'll see a shift towards primary care, with a brain drain in those longer specialties. When there is a huge shortage of specialists, then there will be a high demand again with high salaries. Further, the mental drain of doing something like rads, rad onc, or stress levels of something like anesthesia, neurosurgery, ortho, etc is far superior to FM. Most medical students can do FM, and there is a reason why the least competitive students go into FM, much fewer can be specialists, and that is one of the reasons why there is such a significant place for midlevels in primary care, which will likely replace FM and other primary care people in our lifetime. As you can see, that's happening.

Dude, please stop posting. On my one day off, I really didn't want to post anything on SDN, but your posts are just too ******ed for me to resist.
I hope you realize that residency spots are a game of musical chairs... the most you can do is switch around the pieces. There aren't an infinite number of positions in FM or IM that people can go into for primary care. You can argue that there may be a short-lived shortage in IM-trained sub-specialists like GI, cardio, but even that imbalance will be corrected in time when primary care jobs are quickly soaked up.
The mental drain of radiology and radiation oncology is far superior to FM? And you know this because...? You did some rotations as a medical student? You shadowed some attendings for a few days? I'm in IM, and I'm going to tell you that a full day in the clinic is FAR more mentally draining than even my longest day in the wards.
And you're even a bigger ****** than I thought if you think the average medical student can do primary care. This doesn't even warrant a detailed rebuttal.

And finally, no, radiologists don't ALL train for 6 years. The fellowships that are now "required" are a product of its crappy job market, and not some professional necessity that would prove with statistical certainty a substantial increase in their value add. This would be tantamount to if FM jobs dried up for some reason, and FMs were "required" to do extra years in some random primary care specialty. In that situation, would that warrant a 100% increase in salary for them?
 
Dude, please stop posting. On my one day off, I really didn't want to post anything on SDN, but your posts are just too ******ed for me to resist.
I hope you realize that residency spots are a game of musical chairs... the most you can do is switch around the pieces. There aren't an infinite number of positions in FM or IM that people can go into for primary care. You can argue that there may be a short-lived shortage in IM-trained sub-specialists like GI, cardio, but even that imbalance will be corrected in time when primary care jobs are quickly soaked up.
The mental drain of radiology and radiation oncology is far superior to FM? And you know this because...? You did some rotations as a medical student? You shadowed some attendings for a few days? I'm in IM, and I'm going to tell you that a full day in the clinic is FAR more mentally draining than even my longest day in the wards.
And you're even a bigger ****** than I thought if you think the average medical student can do primary care. This doesn't even warrant a detailed rebuttal.

And finally, no, radiologists don't ALL train for 6 years. The fellowships that are now "required" are a product of its crappy job market, and not some professional necessity that would prove with statistical certainty a substantial increase in their value add. This would be tantamount to if FM jobs dried up for some reason, and FMs were "required" to do extra years in some random primary care specialty. In that situation, would that warrant a 100% increase in salary for them?

Once again, you must your opinions as if they were matters of fact, and as if anyone cared what your thoughts are? What makes you think that anyone here or anywhere else cares what your experiences are? Sorry to burst your bubble but no one does. Yes, I stand my ground and continue to believe that FM and IM are far far far easier than any and all of the specialties I mentioned. Do I care what your personal experiences in IM are? No, not at all. And yes, the lowest ranking med students go into FM/IM, and the foreign grads go into FM/IM. Those are just facts. You want to dispute those too? Why don't you go into the specialty forums as you typically do and give your opinions as facts as you frequently do and tell them how specialty x is doomed. Not just the average medical student can do primary care, the lowest ranking ones can and do - also reflected in the statistics and facts. Or are you arguing that the best go into primary care? Why do we have midlevels doing primary care? Anyone can do BP, lipid levels, and recommend them screening.

It's so sad to see primary care folk so angry at specialists-is it jealousy or what? It seems to me that's the way it is. So just in case you did not get it the first time-neither I nor anyone else cares about your opinions, and statistics clear favor what I'm saying vs. your absurd statements. go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that primary care is the most difficult thing in the world. I guess the NRMP statistics are also wrong now, and the best and brightest are going into primary care. So ridiculous. It would be nice to see primary care folk not so angry all the time. We can only hope. Oh well. Have fun with your anger and jealousy.
 
Dude, please stop posting. On my one day off, I really didn't want to post anything on SDN, but your posts are just too ******ed for me to resist.
I hope you realize that residency spots are a game of musical chairs... the most you can do is switch around the pieces. There aren't an infinite number of positions in FM or IM that people can go into for primary care. You can argue that there may be a short-lived shortage in IM-trained sub-specialists like GI, cardio, but even that imbalance will be corrected in time when primary care jobs are quickly soaked up.
The mental drain of radiology and radiation oncology is far superior to FM? And you know this because...? You did some rotations as a medical student? You shadowed some attendings for a few days? I'm in IM, and I'm going to tell you that a full day in the clinic is FAR more mentally draining than even my longest day in the wards.
And you're even a bigger ****** than I thought if you think the average medical student can do primary care. This doesn't even warrant a detailed rebuttal.

And finally, no, radiologists don't ALL train for 6 years. The fellowships that are now "required" are a product of its crappy job market, and not some professional necessity that would prove with statistical certainty a substantial increase in their value add. This would be tantamount to if FM jobs dried up for some reason, and FMs were "required" to do extra years in some random primary care specialty. In that situation, would that warrant a 100% increase in salary for them?

Don't you frequently go posting in the radiology and radiation oncology forum spewing hate for both fields? Not sure why you are attacking Dermpath. He definitely has a point in what he's saying, even if you don't like it or agree.

Attacking other posters based on your own personal thoughts seems pretty lame, don't you think?
 
Radiologists train for 6 years, not 4.

Actually, it's 5. I forgot the transitional or IM year. It's not 6. Fellowships are always optional.

So, a 22% difference in training years (7 vs. 9). Still, my previous point stands.
 
Once again, you must your opinions as if they were matters of fact, and as if anyone cared what your thoughts are? What makes you think that anyone here or anywhere else cares what your experiences are? Sorry to burst your bubble but no one does. Yes, I stand my ground and continue to believe that FM and IM are far far far easier than any and all of the specialties I mentioned. Do I care what your personal experiences in IM are? No, not at all. And yes, the lowest ranking med students go into FM/IM, and the foreign grads go into FM/IM. Those are just facts. You want to dispute those too? Why don't you go into the specialty forums as you typically do and give your opinions as facts as you frequently do and tell them how specialty x is doomed. Not just the average medical student can do primary care, the lowest ranking ones can and do - also reflected in the statistics and facts. Or are you arguing that the best go into primary care? Why do we have midlevels doing primary care? Anyone can do BP, lipid levels, and recommend them screening.

It's so sad to see primary care folk so angry at specialists-is it jealousy or what? It seems to me that's the way it is. So just in case you did not get it the first time-neither I nor anyone else cares about your opinions, and statistics clear favor what I'm saying vs. your absurd statements. go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that primary care is the most difficult thing in the world. I guess the NRMP statistics are also wrong now, and the best and brightest are going into primary care. So ridiculous. It would be nice to see primary care folk not so angry all the time. We can only hope. Oh well. Have fun with your anger and jealousy.
Several things.
First off, difficulty of getting into a field has zero correlation with how "difficult" that field actually is - both in terms of physical difficulty and mental. Difficulty of getting into a field is entirely based on reimbursement rates that field is current enjoying. How said reimbursement rates were derived is the real question at hand, and if you actually took a look at how the RBRVS was created, you'll know it's riddled with errors and fallacies. Are you really going to make the argument that dermatology is "harder" than general surgery, because derm candidates had higher scores and pedigree than GS candidates?

Secondly, why do you get to go about spewing your opinions as facts, if I don't? The funny thing is that my personal experience wasn't even used as the crux of my argument. In fact, it only came up, because I asked about how you drew YOUR conclusions.

Also, I'm not going to primary care. I'll either be a specialist or administration. I have no anger or jealousy towards specialists.
 
Don't you frequently go posting in the radiology and radiation oncology forum spewing hate for both fields? Not sure why you are attacking Dermpath. He definitely has a point in what he's saying, even if you don't like it or agree.

Attacking other posters based on your own personal thoughts seems pretty lame, don't you think?

Well, I intended to attack his position, not him. If any ad hominem came out, my fault.

Also, my arguments aren't based on the subjective. For instance, the rebuttal to the idea that there would be a specialist shortage if FM and IM made more money is not rooted in opinion.
 
Well, I intended to attack his position, not him. If any ad hominem came out, my fault.

Also, my arguments aren't based on the subjective. For instance, the rebuttal to the idea that there would be a specialist shortage if FM and IM made more money is not rooted in opinion.

My point is this-there is no right or wrong answer here. There is a need for all docs-from primary care to every possible specialist out there, and there are different people who are interested in different things. We are all colleagues, regardless of specialty. We should be united as a group of physicians, not attack each other. You may love primary care/IM/whatever and hate rads or whatever, but other people feel differently. It never makes sense to attack posters based on their opinions, because at the end of the day, they are just that-opinions. None of us know the future or who will get compensated what.

Let's keep it professional and on topic please. Talking about how stupid someone else is or how stupid their opinion/post/whatever is, is simply wrong and uncalled for, and it does not do anything good for any of us. This is a forum for people to post their thoughts, etc. Let's remember that please.
 
Attacking the opinion is not the same as attacking the person. As far as I can see, nobody has "attacked" Dermpath, only her ill-informed opinions.

Being a medical school graduate, I'm certain that she's far more intelligent than her posts here would indicate.
 
Dermatology is easy. Any medical student that can stand the monotony can do it. However, the paucity of residency spots combined with a high income and low cognitive/hour demand make it a very competitive specialty.

The ROAD specialities are competitive because they are well paid, not well paid because they are competitive.
 
Attacking the opinion is not the same as attacking the person. As far as I can see, nobody has "attacked" Dermpath, only his ill-informed opinions.

Being a medical school graduate, I'm certain that he's far more intelligent than his posts here would indicate.

I think that making inuendos about stupidity and things like that is offensive. I'm certainly not going to get involved in the "who deserves what based on what training level" debate, but you have to realize that different people feel differently about this, and just because they do so does not mean they are stupid/ignorant/etc.

If you feel that radiologists or "insert specialty here" are overpaid and underworked, that is your opinion. You are neither right nor wrong. I'm sure you are a smart person, so you have to know that others may feel otherwise. If you love FM and are happy about the increased reimbursement at the expense of specialists, fine. Specialists may be upset at that, and may feel their training/amount of work/whatever qualifies them to be paid x amount. Again, just because they view things differently does not make them "wrong" or stupid. It would be so much better if we could all simply work together as a unit both for our benefit and for the benefit of our patients, and to drop all petty discussions of who deserves what and who is smarter/dumber than who because they chose this or that specialty. *sigh*
Ok, back to enjoying my Sunday I guess.
 
My point is this-there is no right or wrong answer here. There is a need for all docs-from primary care to every possible specialist out there, and there are different people who are interested in different things. We are all colleagues, regardless of specialty. We should be united as a group of physicians, not attack each other. You may love primary care/IM/whatever and hate rads or whatever, but other people feel differently. It never makes sense to attack posters based on their opinions, because at the end of the day, they are just that-opinions. None of us know the future or who will get compensated what.

Let's keep it professional and on topic please. Talking about how stupid someone else is or how stupid their opinion/post/whatever is, is simply wrong and uncalled for, and it does not do anything good for any of us. This is a forum for people to post their thoughts, etc. Let's remember that please.

Absolutely, and I agree that medicine as a whole should be more united. I may have been wrong to attack him or his argument in a certain manner. However, a wrong assertion is a wrong assertion, and it needs to be pointed out.
 
Dermatology is easy. Any medical student that can stand the monotony can do it. However, the paucity of residency spots combined with a high income and low cognitive/hour demand make it a very competitive specialty.

The ROAD specialities are competitive because they are well paid, not well paid because they are competitive.

I don't agree with your statement. Being someone who comes from derm, I can tell you that dermatology is not "easy," and no, it does not have a "low cognitive demand." That's like saying everyone who goes into primary care does so because they failed step 1 or something. That's just silly, and uninformed. Does derm have a better lifestyle than surgery for example? No argument there. But to make blanket statements about specialties is simply silly.

Ok, now I'm really going to go back to enjoying my Sunday.
 
It would be so much better if we could all simply work together as a unit both for our benefit and for the benefit of our patients, and to drop all petty discussions of who deserves what and who is smarter/dumber than who because they chose this or that specialty.

Threads usually take off on a tangent like this when some non-FM person drops in to "educate" us.
 
I don't agree with your statement. Being someone who comes from derm, I can tell you that dermatology is not "easy," and no, it does not have a "low cognitive demand." That's like saying everyone who goes into primary care does so because they failed step 1 or something. That's just silly, and uninformed. Does derm have a better lifestyle than surgery for example? No argument there. But to make blanket statements about specialties is simply silly.

Ok, now I'm really going to go back to enjoying my Sunday.

Once again, you must your opinions as if they were matters of fact, and as if anyone cared what your thoughts are? What makes you think that anyone here or anywhere else cares what your experiences are? Sorry to burst your bubble but no one does. Yes, I stand my ground and continue to believe that dermatology is easy and requires low cognitive demand. Do I care what your personal experiences in derm are?

Oh, sorry. I had my dermpath goggles on.
 
Bottom line, there's no way you can argue that a radiologist works twice as hard as a family physician, so you're telling me that since they do 2 years of extra training they deserve over double what a FP doc makes for the rest of their career? That's bs, and apparently there are a lot of other important people that think so too.

-The ROAD specialities are competitive because they are well paid, not well paid because they are competitive.- How is this concept so hard to grasp? If FP physicians were paid $500,000 a year the "smartest" people would go into that, seriously, you think derm gets the brightest because they want to be intellectually stimulated?

All of the problems dealing with healthcare reform would be a nonissue if we didn't spend unreal amounts of money on our military (old faithful wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
I find it funny that this never gets brought up, we spend $422million per each F22 fighter jet and the oxygen systems don't even work, heaven forbid healthcare be paid for though. At any rate, our government isn't about to cut any of their programs, so if that means specialist's pay has to be cut so that PCPs pay increases, then so be it. The key to decreasing healthcare expenditure is to increase the amount of PCPs, we do that by paying them more.
 
Bottom line, there's no way you can argue that a radiologist works twice as hard as a family physician, so you're telling me that since they do 2 years of extra training they deserve over double what a FP doc makes for the rest of their career? That's bs, and apparently there are a lot of other important people that think so too.

-The ROAD specialities are competitive because they are well paid, not well paid because they are competitive.- How is this concept so hard to grasp? If FP physicians were paid $500,000 a year the "smartest" people would go into that, seriously, you think derm gets the brightest because they want to be intellectually stimulated?

All of the problems dealing with healthcare reform would be a nonissue if we didn't spend unreal amounts of money on our military (old faithful wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
I find it funny that this never gets brought up, we spend $422million per each F22 fighter jet and the oxygen systems don't even work, heaven forbid healthcare be paid for though. At any rate, our government isn't about to cut any of their programs, so if that means specialist's pay has to be cut so that PCPs pay increases, then so be it. The key to decreasing healthcare expenditure is to increase the amount of PCPs, we do that by paying them more.

I've been reading this thread and I am kind of appalled at the back and forth insults and rethoric. As a future specialist, I certainly don't think that cutting specialist pay is the answer. And honestly, I don't think that PCPs will end up getting paid more. I think it's the PC thing the government is saying now, but I don't think that's what will ultimately happen. The Medicaid program is expanding tremendously, and that certainly will not pay well. Midlevel programs are expanding, and that can't be good for primary care imo.

If the gov really wanted more PCPs, wouldn't it make sense that they would increase the # of training spots for IM/FM residencies? Also in my humble opinion, I think the trend will be to have more midlevels take on a bigger role, with PCPs supervising them more and more. Unfortunately this is already happening, and I think midlevels will end up being more cost effective at 1/2 the cost of a PCP and with similar outcomes, and PCP docs will sort of be in more of a supervisory role.

The sad thing is that cuts of any sort will not be good for any of us. Now it's specialists, tomorrow it will be PCPs. If you think that PCPs will not be a target in the future, I think everyone is in for a rude awakening.

And I agree with you 100% about the whole issue that if we did not spend ridiculous amounts of $$ on defense/military, we could pay for healthcare with no issues.
 
I don't agree with your statement. Being someone who comes from derm, I can tell you that dermatology is not "easy," and no, it does not have a "low cognitive demand." That's like saying everyone who goes into primary care does so because they failed step 1 or something. That's just silly, and uninformed. Does derm have a better lifestyle than surgery for example? No argument there. But to make blanket statements about specialties is simply silly.

Ok, now I'm really going to go back to enjoying my Sunday.

I don't know what you mean when you say you come from derm.

My first statement was not really serious, but I don't believe most derms work as hard as I do, nor are they exposed to as much laibility as I am. The derm clinic in my town is completely run by a PA. There is a dermatologist somewhere that reviews his charts, but the joke at medical staff is that he's been dead for years; I can't find anyone that's actually met him. Doesn't help that his name is Bernie. See the above posts, if a PA can do it, it must not be that hard.

I stand behind my second statement. Rheum and endo are incredibly complicated and mentally challenging, and they require fellowship training. They are not competitive.
 
The key to decreasing healthcare expenditure is to increase the amount of PCPs, we do that by paying them more.

Yes and no. It certainly helps overall quality of American health care to have a stronger base of good quality primary care practicioners. Few would argue this. The argument in this thread was based more on where that money comes from.

You could also increase primary care access by allowing mid-levels to serve as primary care providers. Or lower costs directly by slashing reimbursements for medical care/procedures (ie IPAB).

Or best of all...by striving for a cultural change focusing on personal accountability in the form of better diet, more exercise, avoidance of illegal drugs, avoidance of risky sexual practices, smoking cessation, and *gasp* passing malpractice caps so doctors don't order excessive CYA tests that exponentially drive up the cost of health care.

And in other news, I'll echo that highly competitive specialties are usually competitive due to overall work load/stress level versus reimbursement, average teacher salaries are not in the $60's, radiology residency is actually 5 years in duration (minus fellowship), and primary care physicians are relatively underpaid for the level of responsibilty they are typically expected to shoulder.

My hat's off to most primary care doctors. They serve as the skeleton upon which the rest of the system is built upon. I never had an inclination to do what they do, either previously in school or now after recent political developments. That means that I have the utmost respect for people that are willing to step into the breach and perform that job. And I cannot do what I do (practice a subspecialty of medicine) in a vacuum without them.
 
As a future specialist, I certainly don't think that cutting specialist pay is the answer.

I don't think it's the answer, either. Not the whole answer, anyway.

Increasing primary care residency positions is a great idea, but won't do much good unless there are people who want to fill them.

The gap between primary care and specialty incomes will have to narrow for more people to want to pursue primary care careers, especially in the face of rising student debt (another problem without an easy solution).


http://futureoffamilymedicine.blogspot.com/2012/07/primary-care-subspecialist-physician.html

https://twitter.com/AAFP_FMIG/status/222747238802259968


compensationtrends.jpg
 
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I don't think it's the answer, either. Not the whole answer, anyway.

Increasing primary care residency positions is a great idea, but won't do much good unless there are people who want to fill them.

The gap between primary care and specialty incomes will have to narrow for more people to want to pursue primary care careers, especially in the face of rising student debt (another problem without an easy solution).


http://futureoffamilymedicine.blogspot.com/2012/07/primary-care-subspecialist-physician.html

https://twitter.com/AAFP_FMIG/status/222747238802259968


compensationtrends.jpg



I think this is a very complicated situation.
-Either increase primary care residency spots, which would mean more gov. funding for resident salaries
-Make medical education free or mostly subsidized by the gov, a la Canada and other countries where healthcare is free
-Increase midlevels and have them work under the supervision of a PCP - sadly, I do think this is a cost effective measure, that will inevitably be put in place. Why? Well, for many visits, midlevels can likely take care of the patient's needs, and for more complex issues, an actual doc could take care of serious matters. My husband went to see a FM doc the other day. Husband is young, just wanted a physical and to get his immunizations in order. Insurance got charged about 200$. A midlevel could have taken care of his needs for much cheaper. I think for millions of visit, this scenario is much more cost efficient. Increasing the # of residency spots unfortunately would be $$$, and increasing PCP salaries again-becomes expensive.

PCPs on avg make 200k, which imo is not bad at all. But let's say we want to increase their pay-what do we increase to? 250k? 300k? Then they are making about the same as specialists, and the goal is to cut specialist pay. So we are back at square one, are we not? Clearly there is a bigger need for PCPs than there is for specialists. Can the system handle PCPs making 300K? Not realistically. Serious increase in PCP pay would mean the collapse of the system. And what happens when people say hey, I can be a hospitalist or a FM doc for 300k, so I'll just forego the 3-4+ extra years of training to become a PCP. Then we have a situation where we have a shortage of specialists. Then specialist salaries have to rise again to attract grads.

I think the only way to make this work if you want doctors to work for less is to make medical education nearly free, make serious tort reform so that practitioners are not constantly ordering things in order to save their butts in case something goes wrong, and in the case of primary care, I unfortunately think that a higher midlevel introduction with PCP docs taking more of a supervisory role makes a great deal of sense.

An example: Rad oncs avg is in the 350/400k let's say, but there are not even 200 rad oncs that graduate yearly. The system can take 178 or so people making that kind of money, but the system would collapse if it had all 6,000 or however many IM/FM grads yearly (i don't know exactly how many residency positions there are in those fields, sorry) making 300-350k/year. There would be a complete and total collapse of the system.

Also, you look at something like derm where on the chart it shows that the increase in $ has grown significantly. But you also have to realize that a lot of the derm practice is cash based, part of it is cosmetics based (so it's not a cost to the gov/taxpayers), and part of it is also that derms can see many more patients than a PCP/other specialist due to the nature of the specialty, so I think the chart is a bit biased. If you take into account the # of patients seen per avg by a derm vs. a PCP, I would imagine that the costs would be similar. For example when I was rotating in derm I had one attending who would see 50 patients a day. A PCP clearly cannot do that, so the $$ that is brought in per day is much less.
 
Is the fellowship year in radiology truly "optional" if one can't even get a job without one? serious question here.
 
Is the fellowship year in radiology truly "optional" if one can't even get a job without one? serious question here.

I think that's a good point. From what I've read about radiology job market, and how they've changed board requirements, subspecialty training is mandatory to work pretty much anywhere. So I would agree that it takes 6 years to get a job in radiology.
 
My husband went to see a FM doc the other day. Husband is young, just wanted a physical and to get his immunizations in order. Insurance got charged about 200$. A midlevel could have taken care of his needs for much cheaper.

No. A mid-level would've billed the same CPT codes as a physician if they provided the same services. The charges would've been no different. But, your husband may well have gotten less for his money.

Can the system handle PCPs making 300K? Not realistically. Serious increase in PCP pay would mean the collapse of the system.

Quite the opposite. Paying more for primary care has the potential to save the system boatloads of money. See this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=932302

Again, this relates to the fact that primary care is undervalued.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/06/redesign-health-care-payment-systems-primary-care.html

Even neurosurgeons "get it."

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/09/primary-care-specialist-pay-gap-squeezed-hard.html
 
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No. A mid-level would've billed the same CPT codes as a physician if they provided the same services. The charges would've been no different. But, your husband may well have gotten less for his money.


But that's the thing. That is easily changed. A midlevel makes 1/2 of what a PCP makes, and codes can be billed as such. Right there, you have saved millions. My husband's complaint, and those of many many people, are simple and don't need a doctor. Many midlevels practice like this, I think expanding midlevel scope in primary care makes sense.



Quite the opposite. Paying more for primary care has the potential to save the system boatloads of money. See this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=932302

So we are saying that specialists get paid too much right? So if we say, hey specialist pay is outrageous, why would we then go and pay those outrageous amounts of $$ to PCPs, of whom there are so many more? If we look at this scenario, we are talking about billions of dollars that would be increased in the cost of healthcare. You are simply switching who you are paying more to.

So if we cannot afford to pay specialists so much, then how are we saving money by paying PCP such a high amount, and paying such a high amount to such a large # of providers? There is no way our healthcare system can sustain itself without collapsing by paying 300k or more to PCPs. In this case, we are saying-let's pay those fees we already cannot afford to a greater % of people. The reason why specialists in part get paid more is because there are less of them. It would cost a tremendous amount of $$ to be able to pay PCPs that kind of $$. If we have PCPs make 300k, and orthopods for example making 200k, then orthopods could say hey-PCPs are overpaid, and we are underpaid, etc. I think reasonable, FAIR rates need to be provided for all physicians.

I also think that there would be a serious shortage of specialists if we paid specialists the same as PCPs, for a much longer residency.

BlueDog-do you feel 200k is inappropriate pay for a PCP? I'm asking honestly, would like thoughts on this matter. What do you feel is an appropriate salary for a PCP?

I don't agree that the links posted really add much to the discussion (no offense), simply thoughts from the perspective of a neurosug resident.
 
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